Ever since I was a kid I have modeled the 50's or earlier, but I have decided to give the modern era a try. The steam-to-diesel era has many charms, but they exist now only in photographs and in memory. Contemporary railroading is out there right now, waiting to be experienced. My eight-year-old daughter and I have had lots of fun taking photos of rolling stock and locomotives around town and then locating models of them.
The first model of a contemporary car that we brought home from the hobby shop was an Atlas model of a Lincoln Grain hopper. We compared it with the photo we had taken, and we were delighted to see how well Atlas had captured the proportions and the detail of the prototype.
Here's the prototye photo:
I was explaining to my daughter how we could go about weathering the model to match the condition of the real car when she asked, "What about the graffiti?" I was a bit surprised, because she had remarked often about how ugly graffiti is. I told her I had not really planned on adding graffiti to our models. "But Dad," she replied, "they just won't look realistic without it".
After reflecting on it, I have concluded that my daughter is right. However one might feel about it, graffiti is part of the contemporary railroad scene. Nearly every car has at least one tag, and many are covered with it. A contemporary model railroad without graffiti would be a kind of fantasy.
Before I turn the HO scale vandals loose on our models, though, I'd like to hear from any of you who have decided to represent graffiti on your model railroad at something close to the scale it is present on the prototype - which is to say, on most every piece of rolling stock. Do you like the effect? Would you do it again, or would you opt for a graffiti-free HO world.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Charlie Conway
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
The only graffiti in my train room is when I crank Physical Graffiti on my CD player.
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
Likewise, I print my own, can legally "tag" without all that spray paint.
Most recent example, n-scale:
I enjoy painting graffiti on my HO models. I have some customers that like it, and then you have some people that don't. You have to have a steady hand. Also the right size of paint brushes. Here are a few photos of my graffiti.
"Rust, whats not to love?"
I'm VERY happy with mine. It's invisible!Ted Marshall-KASHMIRE!!!!(flicking my lighter above my head)
loathar wrote: I'm VERY happy with mine. It's invisible!Ted Marshall-KASHMIRE!!!!(flicking my lighter above my head)
I'm Shangri La(ing) beneath the Summer moon right now
Well Charlie, since you asked in your closing sentence...........
Yes, I definetly opt for a graffitti free world. That's how I remember freight trains from my childhood to teen, to young adult years. That was from the 1960s thru the 1980s. If you have high speed internet service, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRXcCwvn4ZM&mode=related&search=
For me it seems like yesterday when freight trains looked like what they did in that video.
Modern graffitti only reminds me of how much our society has decayed. When I'm running or weathering trains, I like to forget that for a while.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Kenfolk and Robby P.,
Thanks for sharing photos of your work.
I was interested to see the photo of your weathered Railbox car, Robby. Here is the project that's on my workbench right now:
It looks to me like CN retrofitted an ex-railbox car with a plug door. I don't know what the boxy things are that have been added at the top and bottom of the car sides, but I'm guessing they might be covers over some sort of load restaint device in the interior. CN (or whoever did the retrofit) never got around to painting the car after the work was done - all the new parts are still in red primer, which is starting to rust through.
In all, a very interesting car. I have a photo of the other side, and it's tagged as well.
I have purchased the Intermountain model of this car (although the paint scheme is not quite right for this particular car number) and I have salvaged plug doors from a Walthers Thrall Door car. The doors are quite close, and there are enough of them in one car to kitbash four CN retrofitted railbox cars.
I'll post some pictures when I get a little farther along.
I really enjoy doing Railboxs. I just put one on eBay tonight. Some I put graffiti, and some I don't. The one on eBay doesn'y have any. Checkout http://www.modeltrainsweathered.com/. I was posting some pictures of my Railbox on there and a guy (Jerry) posted several photos of a Railbox. You can learn some tips on there as well. Its easy to become a member. You will learn alot about weathering and graffiti. Heres all the pictures I have of that Railbox. I would get more photos, but it sold on eBay and its in Texas.
The only train I run that is graffiti era is the Hogwart's Freight and Ferry.
Danged Death Eaters!
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I just LOVE graffiti ---
On another continent, in another era.
The era I model, and the place I model, had never heard of the concept. If someone defaced private property the miscreant would shortly find himself in front of a less-than-sympathetic magistrate.
If someone defaced public property, the penalties went up - and the Japan National Railway System was a government-owned monopoly.
The only markings on my all-black freight cars are the white reporting marks and informational stencilings.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
.
AntonioFP45
Thanks for your thoughts and the link to the YouTube video. I had forgotten how clean freight cars were even as late as '82.
I agree with your sentiments about what graffiti says about our society, and believe me, the temptation is great to leave all that at the train room door, but if I'm going to model 2007, I don't think I'd be satisfied with the effect.
Maybe I should consider turning back the clock 25 years. You've gotta love those Southern high-hood diesels!
Charlie
Jeff,
Thanks for the suggestions on technique and the links. If I decide to venture into the graffiti-covered world, I'm sure I'll need every trick in the book. I have had some experience in processing prototype images with Photoshop and printing them on decal paper, so I hope to start there, but I can see that decals will only go so far.
I checked out mellowmike.com briefly. Wow! Beautiful work. I'll definitely be spending some time studying his images.
Charlie,
From the responses up to now, it's obvious that graffiti-or-not is simply a personal choice. It gives more realism for sure on a modern layout. If realism is the goal, the answer is clear. It's also obvious from your comments that you're really leaning toward doing it. So do it. You can always repaint if you don't like it. That's half the fun anyway.
For me, I agree totally with AntonioFP45. I don't want to look at it on MY layout. All the little plastic people in my train room respect all the other little plastic people. I'm not trying to recreate the real world. I'm just having fun.
AntonioFP45 wrote: Well Charlie, since you asked in your closing sentence...........Yes, I definetly opt for a graffitti free world. That's how I remember freight trains from my childhood to teen, to young adult years. That was from the 1960s thru the 1980s. If you have high speed internet service, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRXcCwvn4ZM&mode=related&search=For me it seems like yesterday when freight trains looked like what they did in that video. Modern graffitti only reminds me of how much our society has decayed. When I'm running or weathering trains, I like to forget that for a while.
Model it if you must, but please don't call it "art". If you are modeling it to be "honest" or to be "real" be real honest and call it what it is - vandalism.
George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Since Kluke mentioned me, I'll show some of my past & ongoing work (Don't let him kid ya-he's doggone good at model tagging too-not to mention a doggone good weatherer-he was one of my initial inspirations to get back into my trains.)
I also don't do the graffiti debate either, I just replicate what I see on the prototypes I find. Here's a Railbox I did last year for a modeltrainsweathered.com forum challenge. Pics are terrible due to it being 15 degrees at the time plus wind chill.
This one I did for one of my railfanning buds as kind of a tribute to the bunch I railfan with, & a fellow railfan who passed away last year.
& this is one I'm working on currently:
Mitch,
Thanks for posting some of your photos. It's beatiful work - something for me to aspire to. Do you work from photos of a particular prototype and try to replicate the weathering and graffiti as closely as possible, or do you "freelance"? Either way, your effects are very convincing.
You might be interested in the photos below of a St. Mary's car similar to the one you are working on. I spotted this one in the BNSF Interbay/Balmer yard about a month ago. I just noticed the number patch on the car end: it looks like Atlantic & Western might have retained the last four digits of the St. Mary's number and added or changed the first two to "11".
Where did you find you model of this car?
Incidentally, I wasn't really trying to rekindle a debate about modeling graffiti - I just wanted to find out how people who had gone down that path felt about it now that they have had some experience with it. I think all the comments I have received have been very constructive and will be helpful to me in making up my mind how to approach this.
Charlie,The best way to approach graffiti is to follow the prototype remembering not all cars are rust bucket and covered up with graffiti.
What kills believability quicker then anything is overkill.
My thoughts would be around 10% rust buckets and 10% graffiti cars.Remember a graffiti car does not need to be a rust bucket.The other 80% of the cars should be a mixture of light and medium weather cars to include some freshly painted cars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hi Charlie-
Actually I "try" to replicate an actual prototype to the best that I can see in it's original photo. The ultimate prototype is one that I'm able to see both sides, but unfortunately most of the time that isn't possible. So I do both- 1 side "actual", & 1 side "freehand". & when I say "freehand", in a sense-I usually find tags on other prototypes that I don't plan on modeling, & replicate those, along with a few "freehand"-it varies.
Here's the prototype ATW Ex SM car I modeled-it was part of a WLE train My fiance' & I chased down about a year & a half ago outside Creston,Ohio:
You're exactly right on the added "11." ATW added onto the SM #. & Thanks for the added proto pics-I try to check out all possible for ideas for the "unseen" side which I'm currently working on, & those will help. Like Kluke said, experiment & practice. The finer brushes,the better. My choice are Princeton 20/0's.
(Oh-I know you weren't rekindling the debate-I just add that disclaimer in case someone thinks I'm advocating tagging. (I had someone do that to me on my RRpicture archives site) I don't-I just try to model a car the way it appears-if it has tagging or no tagging.)
Another point to consider with graffiti is the type of car that you would be defacing.
Cars that are typically un/loaded in secure environments are much less likely to have graffiti, eg. chemical tankers and hoppers, where cars that left sitting in unsecured areas are more likely to tagged, eg boxcars at an inner-city recycling center. Another example is that unit coal cars -- traveling from isolated mines to and from isolated power plants -- rarely have any graffiti on them.
Too, the area(s) modeled can affect the type of graffiti seen. Rural areas tend to have more "John loves Jane" or "class of '99" type graffiti, while urban areas have more of the tagging type, a nick-name painted in highly stylized lettering.
Ted Marshall wrote: The only graffiti in my train room is when I crank Physical Graffiti on my CD player.
Zeppelin kicks butt any day of the week.
I was just wondering...
Would any of you "true to prototype" I-model-graffiti-because-it-is-what-I-see types ever consider modeling a car that had been prominately tagged with a swastika or, perhaps, the letters KKK?
Of course not, you say, that would be racist.
Really?
What about the numbers 14, 18, and 14/88? If you saw them on a car, would you duplicate that graffitti?
It might interest you to know that the number 14 stands for the "14 words" of racist icon David Lane. 18 stands for the initials of Adolf Hitler. 88 stands for the 88 precepts of David Lane and or Heil Hitler. ("A" being the first letter of the alphabet and "H" being the eighth.)
But, what if the graffiti isn't in English...
Do you know that many Mexican gang "tags" (like those of MS-13) are just as racist as anything the Neo-*** or KKK have come up with?
Do you know that nearly all taggers belong to criminal gangs?
Food for thought.
Current project car, speaking of graffiti
http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=19034
So this is this work of some racist, gang member???
jktrains wrote: Current project car, speaking of graffitihttp://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=19034So this is this work of some racist, gang member???
Perhaps not. My spanish isn't what it used to be. However it is the work of a criminal vandal and an infringement on copyright to boot!
I personally HATE graffiti in the real world, but on models, it's different. Graffiti is a part of modern railroading, weather you like it or not. (Who does?)
I used sharpies for my first attempt on a "junkie" and it turned out OK.
George,
Although we're veering into the 'graffiti debate', which was not the intent of my post, I appreciate you raising a very important point. In response, I would say that I am motivated to consider modeling graffiti because I have always enjoyed 'prototype modeling', which is to say I like to try to duplicate particular pieces of rolling stock as closely as I can.
Of course, the problem for the modern era prototype modeler is that, no matter how much you deplore graffiti and condemn the vandals that are responsible for it, you really can't do a realistic job of modeling contemporary rolling stock without taking it into account.
That does not mean, however, that it's an all-or-nothing proposition. We are always selective about what we choose to model: we choose particular prototypes because they interest us or they fit into our operating concept and we bypass others. There is no rule that says we have to model a particular car that is tagged with offensive language or symbols. In fact, I don't even photograph cars like that when I run across them.
Thanks for passing on the info about the meaning of various numbers. I don't recall seeing those yet, but I'll steer clear of them if I do.
Of course, many people find any tag, racist or not, to be so offensive they won't consider reproducing any graffiti on their models. I suspect from the tone of your comments that you feel that way, George, and I entirely understand and respect that.
It's a pity we live in a world where we have to make choices like this. Just like its a pity that I have to put up with BNSF personnel hassling me for taking pictures from a public sidewalk.
When I was a little boy, my Dad and I would walk down to a flag-stop passenger shelter on the Pennsy New York - Washington main line and watch the trains. In those days it wasn't uncommon to see a car with a hot box (an overheated wheel journal bearing). My Dad taught me my numbers by having me count the (graffiti-free) cars from the hot box car to the caboose. Then we'd walk home, he would dial the phone number for the yardmaster in Wilmington, Delaware and he'd hand me the phone so I could report the hot box and its location in the train. I remember feeling a wonderful sense of being able to help the railroad, and I recall the Pennsy folks were always grateful and kind to me.
Remind me again why I want to model the present day?
Larry (Brakie) and Varnet,
You both make great points about paying heed to the proportions of heaviliy weathered vs. lightly weathered and graffiti-covered vs. 'clean' cars, and how these proportions vary across different car types. One class of 'car' that shows almost no graffiti is international shipping containers - and there are a lot of those on the rails here in the Seattle area.
PA and ERR wrote:Do you know that nearly all taggers belong to criminal gangs?
That's actually more urban legend than truth. While there are plenty of gang taggers, their graffiti is typically quite different than "artistic" graffiti tags. Most gang-related graffiti is territorial in nature, to denote a particular gang's turf and are typically one color and very simplistic in nature. The colorful and stylistic tags we often see on frieght cars (like many modeled in this thread) are more the work of graffiti "artists" that are only criminals by way of their choice of expression, vandalism.
Wikipedia has an informative article on graffiti, available here.