Which has had the larger and more positive, long term impact on growing our hobby? Thomas or the World's Greatest Hobby program?
I think Thomas wins by a length. Why? Because Thomas has touched the youngsters, planting seeds that will grow. It seems to me that WGH has cultivated and fertilized the existing hobbists more than it has reached the youngsters. Both programs successful and valuable, but they achieved different things.
Just my 2 cents, what do you think?
Joe
Without trying to sound down right cold, I must say that in spite of the often seen claim that Thomas will have some sort of major future impact on the number of scale modelers, I fail to see any demonstrable tie-in whatever.
The great majority of those of us in the hobby today were influenced toward that end by having semi-realistic looking electric trains (Lionel, Flyer, Marx) as young boys at perhaps ages 6 to 14. There was also the undercurrent of being in control of what in the real world were huge and powerful machines...we were playing adult. Further, many of us saw the prototype in daily action and even rode on real trains to one extent or another far more often than today.
Now try to look objectively at Thomas. Thomas' appeal is to the pre-K child. In most cases it is largely a European-styled wooden push toy. It is based on a mythical, essentially TV cartoon character, that in no way resembles any American locomotive nor conveys any air of reality (do trains really converse and have eyes, noses and mouths?). Even a ride behind a 1:1 scale version of Thomas is likely to occur no more than a few times in a very young child's life and can not realistically be considered an important, life long influencing event. It's like claiming that playing with Sponge Bob or Nemo figures as a child will result in a fascination with saltwater aquariums as an adult.
The concept of Thomas as a major influence and source of future scale model railroaders is just totally unsubstantiated speculation and I would challenge anyone to show factual evidence of an actual major association between it and scale model railroading. In reality, I'm afraid, we are simply seeing such situations and associations through highly biased eyes, perceiving important relationships where none exist simply because of our own personal interests.
Now WGH, that's quite something else and if you take the time to carefully read the points of its manifesto, you'll appreciate that it is a well thought out and calculating plan to generate interest and hopefully increase hobby sales.
CNJ831
I only know of one modeler (out of hundreds) that has been touched in any way by WGH, and he's a member of the NMRA BOD. On the other hand, I don't know of a single child in my extended family (20 as of today) that HASN'T been influenced by Thomas in one way or another. Of the 20, at least two should be full-fledged modelers by the time they're ten, thanks to their interest being kindled by Thomas, and fueled by "uncle Ray and his trains".
I fail to see ANY point in WGH; local clubs and NMRA divisions do everything it tries to. However, Thomas is probably the best marketing tool this hobby has seen since the 1960s. I just pray that the debacle with Chinese toy recalls doesn't bite into the fanbase too badly.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
I must respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleague CNJ831.
The fact is, everything around us, our environment, influence our decisions. Thomas is still relatively new, I think if you ask the 30 and 40 something modelers in 20 to 30 years, they will say that Thomas had some influence. While it may not be the deciding factor, it definately moves kids towards an INTEREST in trains, fantasy or otherwise.
Why is it that I model a RR that I never saw and was gone before I was 8 years old? One picture on a magazine cover is all it took. Images are powerful.
Kids like Thomas, parents buy the wooden push toys, then they buy electric train sets because the kids are still enthralled with trains. Now we are right back to where most of us started, train sets of real (or close approximation of) trains.
Rick
If you take an international perspective I think Thomas will win because the the TV programs are broadcasted in many countries while "World's Greatest Hobby" is something you don't see anywhere outside the US (as far as I know).
But considering that model railroading seems to be much more widespread in the US than in my country (Sweden) the "World's Greatest Hobby" will probably have a great deal to do with the hobby's success in US.
It is not enough to awake an interest but it must be nourished and to do that all activities that are making the hobby visible is needed and welcome.
I must be odd man out.
I agree with CNJ for what he says, about Thomas, as of today.
I disagree with CNJ for what he says about the WGH program, and I'm an NMRA Lifer.
Reasons; Thomas is a relatively "recent" development as a toy available with a loco, cars, track, power source, etc in a set. Thomas hasn't "been on the market" in this country long enough to really judge its impact. I believe that in 20-25 years, when these "Thomas Kids" grow up, we'll know the true impact, but not right now.
The WGH, on the other hand, has seemed to limit itself to certain cities, which also limits itself to the number of people it can reach. No matter how good WGH is or is not, if you're not exposing the hobby to the greater number of the public that don't live in the cities where WGH has limited itself, you will in the long run defeat the purpose of the program.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
I have a strange sense of foreboding about the future of this thread. I hope my intuition is wrong.
Still, there can be no doubt that Thomas has a current influence on the health of the hobby, although I am unable to suggest that it will be a lasting phenomenon. It might get a run of 40 years, maybe two full generations...who knows. My kids grew up with Bugs Bunny, but they also watched The Smurfs and other period cartoons. Now kids watch God knows what. Things change, are replaced, supplanted, and become quaint over time. Thomas will be relegated to the same status as Tyco and other former MRR fare of yesteryear. So, in the grand scheme of things, Thomas probably has a lot of currency and clout with respect to getting some new faces in the door. It has been helped by mass media. Whatever replaces Thomas will have its own appeal and advantages brought about by technology. On a holodeck, maybe.
Around these parts, the WGH is known only because we see mention of it in the MRR press - aside from that, I haven't a clue what it's about nor even witnessed any evidence of it.
I have a couple nephews who just love trains AND they have the Thomas stuff as well - but to them, they are two different things. There are similar cross-overs, kinda like playing with Hot Wheels and liking real cars. They never say they want to build a Thomas empire someday.
As I'm sure a lot of us had when we were young, was an exposure to real trains. It's those huge engines and long trains that left an indelible mark on our brains that we want in ernest to bring back to life - turn back the clock if you will. We as human beings have cherished memories that we would give anything to relive again, whether it was last week, last year, ten or fifty years ago. I can't see Thomas creating the types of memories to be rekindled later as a model railroader - a child needs to be exposed to the real deal. A train ride at a tourist site, up close and personal will instill a much stronger facination for trains than pushing some over-hyped wooden toy around the floor (sorry).
So far, this topic seems to be geared to influencing the youth and younger even in terms of promoting the hobby. Allow me to take a different approach .... what about an impact on the growing number of people who are finally settled enough in life to WANT to build a model railroad ??? What has the biggest impact on these people ??? Well, there's already the interest to want a model railroad, so the seed was already planted at some time in their life. So, for the budding model railroader, I'd say the biggest impact is how much is available READY-TO-RUN.
Never in the history of our hobby have we witnessed as many things RTR - engines, cars, buildings and even complete layouts !!! THIS is having the biggest impact for how many folks are getting into model trains .... ask any hobby shop owner where all the bucks are being spent.
That's MY two pennies .... thanks for listening !!!
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Not to nit-pick, but your question should have been "What MAY have the biggest impact on the FUTURE growth of the hobby?" (assuming there WILL be future growth).
I personally think it will be the same thing as it was in the past...parents putting a train that runs under the Christmas tree. Lionel's Polar Express may rank high in this regard. Perhaps Thomas is looked on more as a "toy" for little kids...something to be outgrown. A more realistic train with some simple scenics under the tree becomes more of a "tradition", which MAY evolve into a hobby. Joe
Kids playing with trains. Doesn't matter what kind it is. Some of those kids with Thomas will wait 60 years and then get into the hobby. Some in less time. Some never. It's the exposure to trains as something the individual can play with, control, etc. that will encourage them later on to enter the model railroading hobby. Add in some model building in their pre teen years, any kind, and you'll have 'em.
Enjoy
Paul
Folks, before we run into endless pages of posts citing personal opinions and anecdotes, please allow me to point out something that so often seems to escape posters here: baseless personal opinion is not the same thing as demonstrable fact. Likewise, if an opinion is offered by someone who is already highly biased toward a point of view, it honestly can carry no real weight, nor likely have much validity. We can all have our own personal outlooks on things but that doesn't establish their accuracy or validity, only facts can.
Let me also point out that exposure to Thomas in America is by no means a very recent phenomenon. The TV show Shining Time Station, which featured Thomas episodes, was running on local PBS stations back as far as 1989, almost 20 years ago. If, in fact, Thomas produces any sort of leanings toward becoming a scale model railroader amongst its viewers, we should certainly be seeing some evidence of that in our hobby by now in youths approaching their early 20's. Therefore, it might be appropriate and enlightening to ask just how many teens here on the forum can honestly claim that the bulk of their interest in the hobby directly sprang from watching Thomas on TV or playing with show-related toys and not some other logical source, like a hobbyist relative or conventional tin-plate trains under the Christmas tree? Now that would be a telling bit of information.
My 5-year-old has already outgrown Thomas. But he is completely obsessed with trains. My younger one, who turns 3 this winter, still loves Thomas. But I'm beginning to doubt that Thomas is why they love trains.
They're exposed to trains through me; they go with me railfanning, to train shows, to train museums, and to operate my layout.
My opinion is that the young ones who will enter the hobby will do so because someone close to them has "apprenticed" them. As my father brought me into the hobby, I'm doing the same with my boys. Maybe neither will take to it long-term, but I'm guessing the older boy, whose personality is exactly like mine in every way, has a good chance of being a model railroader.
Continued exposure to trains in every form by someone close is probably the key to "hooking" young people. Otherwise, I'm not sure memories of Thomas toys and videos as a child is enough to compete with the firestorm of distractions sprayed at children these days.
EDIT: I was an enthusiastic supporter of the WGH program at first (I even got my "ambassador" kit), but I haven't really understood it. I like that they have the WGH shows, and the little flyers they make up are pretty nice, but I'm not sure I know what my role in WGH is. Am I really supposed to lock my co-workers in a room and show them a video of Michael Gross talking about trains?
I don't know that WGH grew out of industry desperation as some may argue, but I don't know that it's any more effective than what we hobbyists were doing on our own to recruit. I still feel that the new products and new manufacturers appearing each month bodes well at least for the short term health of the hobby.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
joe-daddy wrote: Which has had the larger and more positive, long term impact on growing our hobby? Thomas or the World's Greatest Hobby program?
As far as ‘Impact' goes, I have no idea.
As far as ‘Visibility' goes, all I can say is that the only time I hear about the WGH campaign is in MRR forums like this. On the other hand, Thomas (and friends) has been a well played with toy in my household for years with both my sons. I also see it on TV, in major retail stores, and (sadly) in recent major toy recalls.
So from a visibility standpoint, Thomas is so far above WGH that it's in a league of its own. From an Impact standpoint, it will be hard to measure, but I think (despite what some of our childhood deprived members might say ) its much higher visibility has to factor into a positive impact to this hobby in some way.
I think Thomas will have about the same impact on the hobby as Barney. Virtually none. It's too huge a leap from a bland push toy for toddlers to the more compelling and complex aspects of model railroading. I so think that exposure to the real thing - modern railroads - is probably the single biggest interest generator for MR.
It's probably also true that with abandonments and consolidation, the decline of small rail-served manufacturing industry and the truncation of passenger rail service, that fewer people, especially younger folks in urban or suburban settings, have an exposure to railroads. Therefore I think it's probably true that the single biggest impact on the hobby is parents introducing and passing it on to their kids. It will probably be ever more important over time.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Real trains are large influence with the hobby. Kids are fascinated with those big powerful monsters.
I feel that Thomas may spark some interest in MRR'ing later on. It will be mostly their first Lionel or some other brand train set, like most of us had. Which is the next step, when the pushing the toys around gets old. Some of our grandkids are now wanting the electric trains like grandpa's.
The WGH program will help spark some interest, but a greater influence of this program, is the train shows and swap meets. Next time you're at one, watch the eyes of a little ones watching the trains and the fathers holding them up, taking in all there is to see.
As with most folk, the things of child hood will pass, as the interest change in the teenage years, only to be rekindled later on. Perhaps it'll be mom cleaning out the attic, a train set in the toy department or holding their wide-eyed child at a train show. Perhaps it'll be just wanting to relive some times of their youth, when trying to figure out why, chocolate cake and ice cream isn't considered healthy breakfast food
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/4309
CNJ831 wrote: Folks, before we run into endless pages of posts citing personal opinions and anecdotes, please allow me to point out something that so often seems to escape posters here: baseless personal opinion is not the same thing as demonstrable fact. Likewise, if an opinion is offered by someone who is already highly biased toward a point of view, it honestly can carry no real weight, nor likely have much validity. We can all have our own personal outlooks on things but that doesn't establish their accuracy or validity, only facts can.CNJ831
So you're saying that information offered here by those of us with lots of little kid relatives (you got any, by the way?) is merely baseless personal opinion while a single poster who is in his very early teens (the oldest child who watched Thomas at 5 from its inception would now be 13) would be a "telling bit of information? The OP didn't ask for a scientific survey, he asked for our opinions. Opinions have been given on both sides of the fence, some with more anecdotal support than others but all anecdotal, including yours. We'll all see what the truth is in about 10-15 years, when the Thomas generation would be of train-buying age. Until then, all of us are speculating, which was the basis of the question. Don't try to impute a logical fallacy where none exists.
Never heard of the "World's greatest hobby" program until I started subscribbing to MRR.
But just about everyone has heard of Thomas.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Debating whether Thomas the Tank Engine or the World's Greatest Hobby is having a bigger impact on "growing our hobby" really is an exercise in futility. As long as each is having a positive impact, does it really matter?
George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
I have two sons, now ages 15 and 9, who have grown up with both Thomas the Tank Engine (I cringe when other folks call him Thomas the Train) and an active MRR father (also Thomas, conincidentally). I don't know what the future will hold for them as far as hobbies - right now my oldest prefers paintball, and my youngest is more interested in Legos and Pokemon than trains. Frankly, at this point, I'd be surprised if either of them ever chooses to actively pursue model railroading.
As far as their exposure to Thomas, they have watched both Thomas programs (Shining Time Station and the more recent Thomas program on Saturday mornings), and both have played extensively with a large box of Brio/Thomas wooden railways that we have collected over the years. I can't say what impact the TV programs will have on them down the road, but the play value of the wooden railway will have, I think, a much deeper effect on their lives. The ability to plan, build, and rebuild railroad layouts on the living room floor has helped them develop a strong interest in other building toys, and will likely lead to careers in architecture, engineering or construction-related fields.
So, whether they ultimately become model railroaders due to Thomas, I can't yet say. But, I know that whatever they do become one day has already been strongly influenced by Thomas.
Tom (not the tank engine)
Am I the only one that remembers Donald, Chip and Dale playing, er working on the 7+ train? Come to think of it, I have not seen that cartoon in many years, I wonder if one can find them on DVD these days?
Thomas "the Tank Engine" has been around long enough to have a measurable impact on our hobby. For example, and I am being specific here, how many LHS have real shelf space dedicated to Thomas? The Caboose has a section dedicated to Thomas and his friends. While I've not measured specifically, at Caboose, is seems as I recall that Thomas rivals the floor space dedicated to N and most certainly is larger than Z.
It is my observation, and not my just my opinion, that Thomas has and continues to be a positive and lasting impact on our hobby. Example, on Comcast, here in Denver, I can record Thomas several times a week, yet what regular program is there on 'my' local cable that is just about model railroading. Zip from what I can see.
I loved how Donald would get so mad at Chip and Dale!
best regards to all this morning!
Thomas, hands-down. I am constantly astounded at how universal Thomas seems to be.
In fact, it was my own (first-born) son's interest in Thomas, coupled with finally owning a decent basement, that reminded me that I still had all the rolling stock and structures of my youth packed away in boxes and that it was thus time to start my own layout.
I'm not sure anyone who isn't already in the hobby has heard of WGH.
Craig
DMW
joe-daddy wrote:Am I the only one that remembers Donald, Chip and Dale playing, er working on the 7+ train? Come to think of it, I have not seen that cartoon in many years, I wonder if one can find them on DVD these days? ...I loved how Donald would get so mad at Chip and Dale!best regards to all this morning!Joe
That takes me back. I haven't seen that in a looooong time.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
UP2CSX wrote: CNJ831 wrote: Folks, before we run into endless pages of posts citing personal opinions and anecdotes, please allow me to point out something that so often seems to escape posters here: baseless personal opinion is not the same thing as demonstrable fact. Likewise, if an opinion is offered by someone who is already highly biased toward a point of view, it honestly can carry no real weight, nor likely have much validity. We can all have our own personal outlooks on things but that doesn't establish their accuracy or validity, only facts can.CNJ831 So you're saying that information offered here by those of us with lots of little kid relatives (you got any, by the way?) is merely baseless personal opinion while a single poster who is in his very early teens (the oldest child who watched Thomas at 5 from its inception would now be 13) would be a "telling bit of information? The OP didn't ask for a scientific survey, he asked for our opinions. Opinions have been given on both sides of the fence, some with more anecdotal support than others but all anecdotal, including yours. We'll all see what the truth is in about 10-15 years, when the Thomas generation would be of train-buying age. Until then, all of us are speculating, which was the basis of the question. Don't try to impute a logical fallacy where none exists.
Jim, first you need to appreciate that there is a very broad gulf between informed opinion and idle speculation. The former pre-supposes at least some knowledge of the factors at work regarding the question at hand. Speculations is just a matter of off the top of the head guessing and carries no weight whatever. Typically, the latter dominates here.
Now if 50, 40, even 30 teen posters (remember there are supposedly 43,000 members of this forum) suddenly show up here claiming their interest in model railroading was spurred by watching Thomas on TV, or playing with Thomas toys earlier in their lives, then we have some real basis to believe Thomas is having at least some sort of impact on the hobby. Without any such postings at all or data to suggest a similar result, it becomes more reasonable to conclude Thomas does not have an impact. Likewise, observation of interest shown by one's own children or kin in a home where model trains are already of major significance is, I'm afraid, indicative of nothing certain as to point of origin of the interest.
On the other side of the coin, the hobby manufacturers, who so many credit (and rightfully so) with a actual knowledge of what is happening in the hobby and where it it's likely to go in the future, have all but totally ignored Thomas items in their product lines. Doesn't that say something to you with regard to how the industry views Thomas' impact on model railroading?
Quite honestly, even the title of this thread is not really proper if the OP was simply looking for opinions as to how modelers felt about Thomas and WGH. It pre-supposes that, first, there is a measurable impact and second, that either will result in hobbyist numbers growing in the future. Neither situation is in evidence.
While reading threads consisting of idle speculation may be amusing, never take their content to be of significance or to reflect reality.
CNJ831 wrote: On the other side of the coin, the hobby manufacturers, who so many credit (and rightfully so) with a actual knowledge of what is happening in the hobby and where it it's likely to go in the future, have all but totally ignored Thomas items in their product lines. Doesn't that say something to you with regard to how the industry views Thomas' impact on model railroading?
This I agree with. I've been trying to get my kids to get started. I've tried exposing them to Thomas but it didn't take. I also tried finding a DCC model of Thomas but failed. If someone can show me one I'll be happy.
On the other hand, Ive never heard of this other program so outside the U.S I would guess that Thomas, no matter how small an influence have had a greater one.
Then again, people who speak of that relatives or children of theirs like Thomas and have picked up railroading is not a good argument. The exposure to ones own MR must be considered in this and it might be a question about the egg and then hen, which came first? I know I was exposed to railroads by my uncle who worked on the railroad. He as also instrumental in getting my first train set.
All this said, I enjoy this kind of threads. The only thing I do not like is when people announce opinions as facts which is rarely the case. For me, all I can say is that I don't know but would be glad if Thomas helped.
Magnus
CNJ831,You just can't dismiss those of us that has sons and grandsons that have no interest in the hobby and reported such as "idle speculation" or "never take their content to be of significance or to reflect reality"..On the contrary those are stated facts as we know them.
Some has hit zero getting their son(s) and grandsons interested in the hobby..I was lucky and got 1 grandson interested (see my first reply).Sorry and as sad as it is just because a kid is around model trains or watches Thomas there is no sign model railroading will take hold in his/her life time.
Now on the other hand my daughter collects anything with Chessie the cat on it such as plates,cups,silverware etc and even has the book that tells Chessie story but,has no interest in trains.