fwright wrote:
What matters, and I think the OP might have hinted at this - the return on investment in WGH appears to be very poor. Thomas was not intended to be a means of developing model railroaders - yet it has had some positive impact, even if not easily measured except anecdotally. WGH was specifically aimed at the objective of growing the hobby, yet relatively few have even heard of the program.
It seems that as far as the general public is concerned, WGH is about as well-known as the Manhattan Project was to the general public in WWII. Outside of the hobby press and the train shops I visit, WGH appears to be about as visible as the far side of the moon. The only reason I know about WGH is because I'm in the hobby and already a member of the choir. C'mon guys, you don't need the equivalent of a "come to Jesus" campaign for the already converted.
Here's some ideas:
1. Itinerant tent revival train shows. "Brethren and Sistern... I say, brethren and sistern.... idle hands are the devil's playground. You need a hobby and you need the one true hobby. You need trains, lots and lots of trains......"
2. Door to door pamphleteers using the Jehovah's Witness and Mormon model.
3. 30 second Super Bowl spots. OK, they're expensive. but if ya want to get your messages to the masses, ya gotta do it in a manner that actually reaches the masses.
4. Songs. Railroady songs set to gospel tunes. To the tune of "Rock Of Ages":
Amtrak takes ages from here to there
Still it's almost faster than air.
You don't sit at the gate for hours,
But on a siding watching wildflowers.......
Ok, it needs work, but you get the drift.
Andre
UP2CSX wrote: Anybody else got the October Walthers flyer? Check page 12 - a whole page devoted to electric Thomas trains, not wood pull toys.CNJ, you continue to make statements as if they are facts when they have no foundation. Family size increased from 1940 until 1957, when the average number of children per family peaked at 3.7. (Source: http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4847a1.htm) Since the average in 1957, when I was 11, was 3.7, it obviously wasn't rare to have families of four or five children. It wasn't the Sixties and the Brady Bunch. It happened while you were growing up. Simply because you personally didn't know any families that had more than two children does not make it an established fact. It also had nothing to do with wealth or poverty. Both the poor and the middle class had about the same rise in average family size from 1940 to 1957. It has only been since 1972 that we've seen a disparity in family size based on family income, with poorer families tending to have more children. An issue facing the hobby now is the continuing fall in average family size, assuming people become interested in the hobby as children.It's interesting to see your continuing parochial view based on the fact you lived in New York, even in the face of numerous other members telling you it was different elsewhere. The United States does not end west of the Hudson and the world doesn't end east of Manhattan. You are looking at things through the wrong end of the binoculars.
Anybody else got the October Walthers flyer? Check page 12 - a whole page devoted to electric Thomas trains, not wood pull toys.
CNJ, you continue to make statements as if they are facts when they have no foundation. Family size increased from 1940 until 1957, when the average number of children per family peaked at 3.7. (Source: http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4847a1.htm) Since the average in 1957, when I was 11, was 3.7, it obviously wasn't rare to have families of four or five children. It wasn't the Sixties and the Brady Bunch. It happened while you were growing up. Simply because you personally didn't know any families that had more than two children does not make it an established fact. It also had nothing to do with wealth or poverty. Both the poor and the middle class had about the same rise in average family size from 1940 to 1957. It has only been since 1972 that we've seen a disparity in family size based on family income, with poorer families tending to have more children. An issue facing the hobby now is the continuing fall in average family size, assuming people become interested in the hobby as children.
It's interesting to see your continuing parochial view based on the fact you lived in New York, even in the face of numerous other members telling you it was different elsewhere. The United States does not end west of the Hudson and the world doesn't end east of Manhattan. You are looking at things through the wrong end of the binoculars.
Thank you UP2CSX for pulling out the facts on family sizes and interests during the Boomer years. All I had was empirical evidence. Depression generation families did indeed (empirical evidence looking at my family tree) have fewer children - it was a record decrease from prior generations. In my tree, the drop went from 10+ children/family to 2-4 children/family. Then in the boomer years, family size jumped back up to 3-8 children/family. Now, I'm a very unusual case with 5 children in my family - all my relatives have 3 or less.
Another telling point - when I entered a military academy in 1971, over 25% of my classmates came from families of more than 4 children. Granted, we had a higher than normal incidence of Catholic backgrounds - 40% vs about 30% for the US population at large - but it does show large families were not unusual, not were they limited to lower economic classes.
And yes, we wanted and received Lionel trains - ours were mostly used because 6 kids did crimp the spending ability of my father's middle class income. Of the 6 kids, 2 still have an interest in model railroading - a generational passdown percentage that appears to fit well with other posts on this forum. Of the 2 of us, it is still too early to tell how many of the 7 kids between us later become model railroaders.
How much impact did/does Thomas have? Because many model railroaders have a hiatus from the hobby after leaving home, it's really too early to tell. Using this forum to determine whether today's teenage model railroaders developed their interest from Thomas exposure is a statistical laugher. And seldom is Thomas the only exposure to trains - prototype or model. So how much is Thomas, and how much is other influences? Does it really matter how many future model railroaders are being generated by exposure to Thomas?
CNJ, your underlying belief that the hobby is dying seems to color your response to any situation or anecdote that appears. Anything that might appear to have encouraged hobby growth must be challenged and negated, no matter how much of a stretch.
Given the apparent flop of WGH, there appears little else being done on an organized basis to grow the hobby. So whether the hobby grows, dies, or maintains is really not that important to most of us (else we would do more). We will continue to make our individual efforts as we choose, and the outcome will be what it will be.
just my thoughts, yours may vary
Fred W
CNJ831 wrote: andrechapelon wrote: Everyone talks about how common Lionel was during the 50's, but I doubt that the the majoriity of boys got electric trains when they were kids contrary to Lionel's hype at the time. There about about 77 million or so Baby Boomers alive today. Assuming that roughly half are male, that would make about 38+ million who were potential recipients of a train set. Given the problems Lionel encountered starting in the late 50's with selling their sets, I doubt that more than a relatively small number of us ever received a set (let alone all those neat accessories). OTOH, I know 4 grandkids who will receive them as they get old enough. Teens can be harsh? How is this any different from the way things were back when we were young? It didn't stop us. I don't remember that an interest in trains (model and otherwise) was any more "acceptable" than it might be today. That was kid stuff, as I recall. Sorry, Andre, it wasn't hype. I grew up in the 40's and 50's and I can tell you that, at least here on the East Coast, decidedly more than half the others boys I knew in that era did have Lionel, Flyer, or Marx sets and trains under the Christmas tree were just about universal, even in many home without children.I judge by your grandchild's picture that you are probably a product of the late 1960's or early 1970's. Indeed, model railroading was on very shakey ground by then (being dealt a serious blow by slot cars) and model trains weren't very accepted as a hobby by young folks anymore. However, in the 50's, none of your schoolmates ever made fun of you having trains or actually being a model railroader...a great many of them loved trains too! Believe me, it was a totally different era than yours, when most boys built models cars, navy ships, static and flying airplanes, or had trains. Likewise, the hobby had incredible, vocal spokesmen. Joe Di had a Saturday morning TV show for Lionel. Likewise, the general public knew Roy Campanella and Ol' Blue Eyes were both model train enthusiasts, together with many other bigtime personalities of the day. You can't begin to even imagine the popularity or acceptance of tin-plate and model trains as an interest back then. CNJ831
andrechapelon wrote: Everyone talks about how common Lionel was during the 50's, but I doubt that the the majoriity of boys got electric trains when they were kids contrary to Lionel's hype at the time. There about about 77 million or so Baby Boomers alive today. Assuming that roughly half are male, that would make about 38+ million who were potential recipients of a train set. Given the problems Lionel encountered starting in the late 50's with selling their sets, I doubt that more than a relatively small number of us ever received a set (let alone all those neat accessories). OTOH, I know 4 grandkids who will receive them as they get old enough. Teens can be harsh? How is this any different from the way things were back when we were young? It didn't stop us. I don't remember that an interest in trains (model and otherwise) was any more "acceptable" than it might be today. That was kid stuff, as I recall.
Everyone talks about how common Lionel was during the 50's, but I doubt that the the majoriity of boys got electric trains when they were kids contrary to Lionel's hype at the time. There about about 77 million or so Baby Boomers alive today. Assuming that roughly half are male, that would make about 38+ million who were potential recipients of a train set. Given the problems Lionel encountered starting in the late 50's with selling their sets, I doubt that more than a relatively small number of us ever received a set (let alone all those neat accessories). OTOH, I know 4 grandkids who will receive them as they get old enough.
Teens can be harsh? How is this any different from the way things were back when we were young? It didn't stop us. I don't remember that an interest in trains (model and otherwise) was any more "acceptable" than it might be today. That was kid stuff, as I recall.
Sorry, Andre, it wasn't hype. I grew up in the 40's and 50's and I can tell you that, at least here on the East Coast, decidedly more than half the others boys I knew in that era did have Lionel, Flyer, or Marx sets and trains under the Christmas tree were just about universal, even in many home without children.
I judge by your grandchild's picture that you are probably a product of the late 1960's or early 1970's. Indeed, model railroading was on very shakey ground by then (being dealt a serious blow by slot cars) and model trains weren't very accepted as a hobby by young folks anymore. However, in the 50's, none of your schoolmates ever made fun of you having trains or actually being a model railroader...a great many of them loved trains too! Believe me, it was a totally different era than yours, when most boys built models cars, navy ships, static and flying airplanes, or had trains. Likewise, the hobby had incredible, vocal spokesmen. Joe Di had a Saturday morning TV show for Lionel. Likewise, the general public knew Roy Campanella and Ol' Blue Eyes were both model train enthusiasts, together with many other bigtime personalities of the day. You can't begin to even imagine the popularity or acceptance of tin-plate and model trains as an interest back then.
CNJ831
Although I have no idea of what others think of us modelers today, I remember when I was a kid in the early 60s almost every kid either had a train set or wanted one. You were thought of as strange if you didn't have an interest in model trains.
It is based on a mythical, essentially TV cartoon character.
Thomas is based on a series of books that first went into print in 1945. And the locomotive itself is closely modelled on a real, non-mythical engine, as are most of the Thomas characters.
While I'm quite familiar with the books, the American public in generally is not.
it is largely a European-styled...in no way resembles any American locomotive....
It's entirely British in style. Can't you tell the difference?
On this side of the pond, England is considered just another part of Europe.
...do trains really converse and have eyes, noses and mouths?...
No, John, they don't. But only a miserable, dried-up old curmudgeon withno imagination or sense of child-like fun and wonder would ask such a question.
No, just realistic. So, we're going to lower ourself to name calling now? How truly sad on you part.
I had previously regarded your posts as instructive and worthwhile. Gotta re-think that.
On the other side of the coin, the hobby manufacturers, who so many credit (and rightfully so) with a actual knowledge of what is happening in the hobby and where it it's likely to go in the future, have all but totally ignored Thomas items in their product lines....
Tomix produce a large range of Thomas items in N scale, and I believe Bachmann have a OO scale Thomas range. For someone who professes to be knowledgable about the hobby and what the manufacturers are up to, it's surprising you didn't know that.
To my knowledge Tomix is no major player in the U.S. I barely recognize the name.
As to Bachmann's Thomas, I think I've seen seen one ad for them since they came out.
Over here Thomas is pretty much synonymous with wooden push toys, battery-power pre-K items and bed sheets.
Doesn't that say something to you with regard to how the industry views Thomas' impact on model railroading?...
I think it says a lot about their unwillingness or perhaps just plain inabilty to pay the licensing fees that the franchise owners demand.
Ah, the old, "if the industry doesn't think like me, then it's the industry that's wrong" approach. Interesting viewpoint.
The situation still reflects the industry's outlook, in a time when it's desparately searching around for new customers (and were willing to spend over a million dollars on WGH in doing so), that Thomas isn't the way to go to find them in the U.S.
I must say that in spite of the often seen claim that Thomas will have some sort of major future i Reply Lillen Member sinceJune 2006 From: Sweden 1,808 posts Posted by Lillen on Friday, October 5, 2007 8:23 AM Thanks for letting me know. I thought it was some kind of TV show or something. Well that just shows how much that have influenced me anyways!" Magnus Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus Reply tstage Moderator Member sinceJune 2003 From: Northeast OH 17,240 posts Posted by tstage on Friday, October 5, 2007 8:11 AM Magnus, The World Greatest Hobby (WGH) is a program in the sense that it's a series of train shows around the US that people can attend each year. (I don't know if they have a series in Europe or not.) Every year it's a different set of cities the WGH visit. I went to one in Pittsburgh this past January. It was a lot of fun. Wall-to-wall people and kids. I drove from Cleveland so it took me a couple of hours to get there. The show went from 10-6 on Saturday. I didn't arrive till 10:15 AM but it was already getting crowded.Most of the big locomotive manufactures were there. There were a number of vendors, as well as a few nice layout. (Saw my first Z-scale layout.) They also had an indoor 7-1/2 scale loop for the little kids (and BIG kids) to ride on. One of the keys to the show was that kids under 16 got in FREE. Made for a nice and inexpensive day out with the family.When I left the show at ~3:00 PM, kids and adults were still filing in, in long lines. Tom https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step. Reply Lillen Member sinceJune 2006 From: Sweden 1,808 posts Posted by Lillen on Friday, October 5, 2007 7:59 AM Is the WGH program available for download? Because if the target is younger people the Internet and downloading is the way to go. Observe, I'm talking about a legal download. I would like to see it to be honest.Magnus Unless otherwise mentioned it's HO and about the 50's. Magnus Reply Phoebe Vet Member sinceSeptember 2007 From: Charlotte, NC 6,099 posts Posted by Phoebe Vet on Friday, October 5, 2007 7:58 AM Andre:"Perhaps more than half of your peers did have train sets. One thing you haven't stated is what socio-economic group you were in as a kid. That does make a difference. We weren't poor, but with 5 of us kids, there wasn't a lot of disposable income left over to indulge a passion for trains."I, also was one of 5 in a working class family. My American Flyer S guage was a Christmas present for which I had begged. Many of my friends had the Lionel O guage trains and many of the accessories that made them more fun, but my financial situation did not allow for all those extras.My teenage HO railroad was purchased, one peice at a time, with the money I made on my paper route.Where there is a will, there is a way............ Dave Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow Reply tstage Moderator Member sinceJune 2003 From: Northeast OH 17,240 posts Posted by tstage on Friday, October 5, 2007 7:53 AM Great story, PV! Thanks for sharing! Hoping that your granddaughters keep the passion for trains...even after boys come along. Tom https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step. Reply Phoebe Vet Member sinceSeptember 2007 From: Charlotte, NC 6,099 posts Posted by Phoebe Vet on Friday, October 5, 2007 7:41 AM My personal experience:As a child I had an American Flyer S guage toy train. Several of my friends has Lionel O guage. I chose S because it looked more realistic (2 rails). As a teenager I changed to HO for the same reason; More realistic.When I went into the Navy, is all just somehow went away.Fast forward almost 40 years.My granddaughters currently ages 4 and 8, are totally enthralled with the Thomas Show. They have the wooden trains. So I bought a Thomas HO set for them to play with at my house.It went over far bigger than I anticipated. They spent hours running him around the circle of track on a tabletop. They fought for each turn. So I decided Thomas needed more track on which to run. I got a 4x8 sheet of plywood and bought the Woodland Scenics River Pass and began to assemble it. Suddenly the eldest was more interested in the construction than in playing with the train. As assembly progressed, both of them began to grow bored with the circle, and wanted to run Thomas on the new layout. In the meantime, Grandpa began to remember how much fun it had been building this stuff in his youth.My two car garage now houses a large and growing layout. The grandchildren prefer the "real trains" because one has sound. All, including Thomas, are now DCC.We recently took them to a model railroad show. They really enjoyed it.Last weekend we attended "A Day out with Thomas" at the North Carolina Transportation Museum. They had their first train ride. They toured the roundhouse, and saw lots of real trains. They saw an Amtrak F40PH sitting on a siding waiting to be restored, and got excited because it looks just like the one on our layout. They even noticed that the number on the side is only 1 digit different from the number on "ours".They now are really enjoying the model trains, want to take a trip somewhere, anywhere, on a real train, and have begun asking to go sit in the car near the tracks to watch trains go by.Thomas was the catalyst. We have also recently aquired a Bachmann Hogwart's Express too, but most of the model trains are real trains.They have never even heard of the World's Greatest Hobby program, but they really like trains, and are struggling to understand why passenger trains are no longer popular.I rode the Erie Lackawanna Phoebe Snow to and from Chicago while I was in the Navy. But the wife of 40 years had never been on a train until recently. We recently took Amtrak from Charlotte, NC to Richmond, VA. She enjoyed it. She is now suggesting that we need a steam engine with sound for the garage train....And it's all because of Thomas! Dave Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow Reply marknewton Member sinceDecember 2002 From: Sydney, Australia 1,939 posts Posted by marknewton on Friday, October 5, 2007 3:17 AM andrechapelon wrote:To my knowledge Tomix is no major player in the U.S. I barely recognize the name. As to Bachmann's Thomas, I think I've seen seen one ad for them since they came out. Over here Thomas is pretty much synonymous with wooden push toys, battery-power pre-K items and bed sheets. Those are no direct lead-in to our hobbyOdd. My local train store (The Train Shop in Santa Clara) carries quite a range of Thomas items (Bachmann, Tomix, et. al.) in its inventory. The last time I was there, there was at least one complete row of Thomas items. I have no idea why owners are betting their future revenue on such an obvious dead end.They're obviously not getting CNJ831 to do their merchandising, then! Cheers,Mark. Reply John Busby Member sinceApril 2005 From: West Australia 2,217 posts Posted by John Busby on Friday, October 5, 2007 3:05 AM Hi guys"Right that's it cream buns at dawn" Euro style indeed Bah!! no need to insult Thomas with inaccuraciesThomas is an NER locomotive I forget which class which most definitely makes him English, you Know the ones those guys you kicked out in 1776, and then hired to build your first railways locomotives.Not the Europeans that's what the English channel is for to divide the English from the Europeansregards John Reply John Busby Member sinceApril 2005 From: West Australia 2,217 posts Posted by John Busby on Friday, October 5, 2007 2:45 AM Hi guysThomas wins hands down after all he is some where around seventy 70 years oldFirst as ladybird children's books which I had as a child, then much much later as the TV show.How long has the Worlds Greatest Hobby Program been going not that long.Have you noticed how many children recognise a steam loco but have never seen a real one, in Aus we still use the steam engine silhouette for a level crossing warning sign and children recognise that even when they don't recognise the other road signs regards John Reply wm3798 Member sinceMarch 2007 From: On the Banks of the Great Choptank 2,916 posts Posted by wm3798 on Thursday, October 4, 2007 10:03 PM I've never seen any mention of WGH in anything but the railroad hobby press. We do have a couple of cartons of the full color hand outs at our club, and they do get handed out to our visitors at open house, but I think if the goal is to reach out to people, you have to go where they are, not wait till they come through your door.Does WGH advertise in wood working or other craft style magazines? What about "Men's Health" or other such venues? I've seen curiosities like gem encrusted trains in the Neiman Marcus catalog, but what about a sound equipped DCC train set targeted to the Sharper Image crowd?I'll put my money on Thomas. He may not be the one to fan the flames, but he sure ignites a spark in the fertile imagination of a little kid.Lee Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net Reply selector Member sinceFebruary 2005 From: Vancouver Island, BC 23,330 posts Posted by selector on Thursday, October 4, 2007 7:47 PM In view of all that has been said, and when considering that the hobby is far greater than the sum of its parts, is it at all possible that its provenance is also greater than the two sides of this debate? Perhaps something like a steadily rising mean income or sound-equipped locomotives, or perhaps it is just that some folks don't cotton on to the virtual world of gaming and want something more concrete is as instrumental in the hobby's sustainability. If only someone could provide incontrovertible proof that the hobby is in decline, in ascent, at its nadir, or at its zenith, we would be halfway towards resolving this impasse...because that is what I have concluded it is. Is MTH, for example, in its death throes and madly, desperately promising more than it can rationally anticipate selling with its latest HO announcement? Should we assume there is no ethics in the gentleman who replied to that thread on behalf of MTH with, of all crazy things, an assertion that he is to market even more in the HO locomotive world than the Company currently does? Or, would it be just as reasonable to conclude that the HO market, at least, is doing quite promisingly, thanks very much, and their investment offers more than mere hope for their success? Is Atlas continuing its monthly announcements of soon-to-be mailed rolling stock and locomotives because it is not receiving a return on its investment dollars and because it does not continue to get orders in sufficient numbers that it can sustain its output? On the other hand, is that output declining over time, and how would all of us find out? If absolute numbers of produced items in their catalogs were to show a longitudinal trend in the past, say, 20 years, I would agree that it is a highly likely sign that the hobby is in decline. In the absence of any such or similar data, I'm afraid I will not be convinced one way or another. Reply JFdez Member sinceAugust 2006 43 posts Posted by JFdez on Thursday, October 4, 2007 7:02 PM Nieuweboer wrote: I'm abolutely convinced that the major influence by far are a father, a granddad,an uncle, a nephew,a brother or a friend of the family who are model railroaders or railfans and show the kid the layout, take him railfanning and visit shows.Of course love of trains must be a bit in the genes too. IMHO these factors have a greater impact than either Thomas or WGH promotion. You've hit the proverbial nail right on the head. Consider my own family's situation:I have two sons and two nephews, ranging in age from 11 to 15, who happen to love trains in one form or another (note that I haven't specified "model railroading" yet). My older son loved Thomas as a young boy, and has progressed to a fascination with passenger rail (light rail, commuter and Amtrak in particular; freight barely interests him); my younger son did not care for Thomas all too much, but now is interested in N-scale modeling; their two (male) cousins both loved Thomas and have become enthusiastic railfans as well as modelers. All four love train shows, but it is my younger son who absolutely loves model operations and layout construction. Did WGH matter one bit in encouraging the interest on the part of any of these boys? Not at all. Did Thomas? Yes, but not to the extent one might expect given theor ages. (indeed, the one who spend the most of his money on model train is the one who didn't care for Thomas) What has influenced them was the passion my father and I have for trains, and the manner in which we tailored the modeling/railfanning hobbies to other things each boy likes (electronics, photography, maps, to name a few).So my bottom line is that, were I to choose only between the two alternatives offered, I would have to say Thomas wins hands-down almost by default. However, neither of them means squat without the personal introduction an experienced enthusiast can provide to the hobby and its many aspects.Juan Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Thursday, October 4, 2007 12:25 PM UP2CSX wrote: CNJ writes: Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. As for me: born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual. Not once the baby boom started. Many of my friends had at least four kids in the family and five or six wasn't rare. Again, perhaps a regional situation but certainly opposed to what I experienced. In my area, post war, the number of families rose sharply, however the number of children per household remained relatively constant around two. The only large families I can recall from the 40's through the 50's - and please nobody get insulted because that's not the intent here - were those in the lower economic levels, those of first generation immigrants, and some post-war refugees. This was true right up through my high school years, by which time we were starting to see the size of families decline somewhat as wives began entering the work force again.Also consider as indicators most "family" shows of the period on TV or the movies. The typical in the 50's was two kids (yes, I understand that's easier to write for than a bunch). So the TV programers, urbanites one and all, thought that was depicting the American standard too. Brady Bunch-sized families as the standard were still far in the future.CNJ831 Reply andrechapelon Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: California & Maine 3,848 posts Posted by andrechapelon on Thursday, October 4, 2007 12:21 PM To my knowledge Tomix is no major player in the U.S. I barely recognize the name. As to Bachmann's Thomas, I think I've seen seen one ad for them since they came out. Over here Thomas is pretty much synonymous with wooden push toys, battery-power pre-K items and bed sheets. Those are no direct lead-in to our hobbyOdd. My local train store (The Train Shop in Santa Clara) carries quite a range of Thomas items (Bachmann, Tomix, et. al.) in its inventory. The last time I was there, there was at least one complete row of Thomas items. I have no idea why owners are betting their future revenue on such an obvious dead end.My wife, unbeknownst to me, picked up a Lionel Thomas set last Christmas from TTS and we set it up around the tree with the following results:My now nearly 7 year old granddaughter wanted us to add more track, some switches, a station, more cars and some trees. She got a kick out of running Thomas back and forth and blowing his whistle. She had me cut out a cardboard box to make a "tunnel". She seems to be ready for the next step.My now 3 year old granddaughter got an equal kick out of running Thomas but isn't advanced enough yet to insist on the add ons. It's just a matter of time. My then 15 month old grandson was a bit intimidated by the whole thing, although he did get a kick out of blowing the whistle. Nearly a year later, he's mad about Thomas. In fact, at his birthday in September, virtually all his gifts were Thomas related. He has quite a "layout" consisting of Thomas items, not to mention DVD's, blankets and tee shirts. At roughly his age, I was given a Marx windup set which was no more realistic than Thomas. That was the beginning. Andre It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip. Reply joe-daddy Member sinceJuly 2006 From: Colorado 707 posts Posted by joe-daddy on Thursday, October 4, 2007 9:54 AM The little engine that could . . .Donald with Chip and Dale . . .Down by the station early in the morning . . . Thomas and his Friends . . .The Polar Express . . . I find it amazing how some people think our children's TOYS should be an N Scale Erie Triplex with smoke and sound else it does not represent anything that could possibly influence a child into liking or thinking about model trains and our beloved hobby."dried-up old curmudgeon" reminds me of another Christmas favorite, 'The Grinch who stole Christmas'.I'd like to think that anything that has some level of positive moral basis that fascinates or captures a child's interest is of value, especially when it involves trains. One only has to have a child bring home a real full sized sword and start clinging to the goth scene to appreciate the value of Thomas and his friends. . . Joe My website and blog are now at http://www.joe-daddy.com Reply NeO6874 Member sinceJanuary 2006 From: Northeast OH 2,268 posts Posted by NeO6874 on Thursday, October 4, 2007 9:37 AM OK, so there's still a lot of back and forth on this subject... but it seems (now) to be pointing towards kids don't get "realistic" or "good" toy trains anymore (Lionel, AF, etc)...Kinda seems like what you're saying agrees with the Lionel view of last Christmastime -- get trains into the bog stores at an "affordable" price. Now, I don't know much about Lionel prices outside of the walmart set, so I can't say how well (or poorly) that scheme panned out for Lionel. I did want to get one though.... -Dan Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Thursday, October 4, 2007 9:23 AM marknewton wrote: (CNJ states:)...allow me to point out something that so often seems to escape posters here: baseless personal opinion is not the same thing as demonstrable fact...We can all have our own personal outlooks on things but that doesn't establish their accuracy or validity, only facts can....Absolutely, CNJ - but a number of your posts in this thread constain statements that are demonstrably wrong. And your parochialism is once again colouring your opinions. So, honestly, can your comments carry any real weight, or have much validity? It is based on a mythical, essentially TV cartoon character...Thomas is based on a series of books that first went into print in 1945. And the locomotive itself is closely modelled on a real, non-mythical engine, as are most of the Thomas characters.While I'm quite familiar with the books, the American public in generally is not. Thomas is looked up in the States simply as a live action cartoon character, nothing more and similar to Sponge Bob. It's viewed in the same light as the U.S. "Little Engine That Could"...an understood fiction or caricature morality tale.it is largely a European-styled...in no way resembles any American locomotive.... It's entirely British in style. Can't you tell the difference?On this side of the pond, England is considered just another part of Europe. Their locomorives are of a distinctly different appearance and style from ours that most post-K children will quickly preceive on comparison....do trains really converse and have eyes, noses and mouths?...No, John, they don't. But only a miserable, dried-up old curmudgeon with no imagination or sense of child-like fun and wonder would ask such a question.No, just realistic. So, we're going to lower ourself to name calling now? How truly sad on you part. I had previously regarded your posts as instructive and worthwhile. Gotta re-think that. Nevertheless, such features as faces in a toy doom it to remain as such. It's a long way from Lionel which, incidentally, moved away from the hokey stuff with faces in the '30's. On the other side of the coin, the hobby manufacturers, who so many credit (and rightfully so) with a actual knowledge of what is happening in the hobby and where it it's likely to go in the future, have all but totally ignored Thomas items in their product lines....Tomix produce a large range of Thomas items in N scale, and I believe Bachmann have a OO scale Thomas range. For someone who professes to be knowledgable about the hobby and what the manufacturers are up to, it's surprising you didn't know that.To my knowledge Tomix is no major player in the U.S. I barely recognize the name. As to Bachmann's Thomas, I think I've seen seen one ad for them since they came out. Over here Thomas is pretty much synonymous with wooden push toys, battery-power pre-K items and bed sheets. Those are no direct lead-in to our hobby.Doesn't that say something to you with regard to how the industry views Thomas' impact on model railroading?...I think it says a lot about their unwillingness or perhaps jst plain inabilty to pay the licensing fees that the franchise owners demand.Ah, the old, "if the industry doesn't think like me, then it's the industry that's wrong" approach. Interesting viewpoint. The situation still reflects the industry's outlook, in a time when it's desparately searching around for new customers (and were willing to spend over a million dollars on WGH in doing so), that Thomas isn't the way to go to find them in the U.S.I must say that in spite of the often seen claim that Thomas will have some sort of major future impact on the number of scale modelers, I fail to see any demonstrable tie-in whatever...The concept of Thomas as a major influence and source of future scale model railroaders is just totally unsubstantiated speculation and I would challenge anyone to show factual evidence of an actual major association between it and scale model railroading....Good, I'll take up that challenge. I'll start scanning and posting excerpts from the numerous articles from the UK scale railway modelling press over the last 25 years or so that credit the author's interest in scale railway modelling to reading/viewing Thomas the Tank Engine. That's enough of a "demonstrable tie-in" for you?Scan and post away! What happens in the UK or appears in its rail publication hasn't had any tie-in, implications, nor signigficant influence on what the U.S. hobby is doing or where it's going since the late 20's. What's the point? You're dealing with almost exclusively a North American audience here, discussing a subject that some argue could affect the hobby's outcome here. What's happening with the hobby in other far flung corners of the globe is largely irrelevant to the question at hand. CNJ831 Reply UP2CSX Member sinceJune 2007 From: Prattville AL 705 posts Posted by UP2CSX on Thursday, October 4, 2007 8:20 AM Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. As for me: born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual. Not once the baby boom started. Many of my friends had at least four kids in the family and five or six wasn't rare.Growing up, I recall every department store had an elaborate train display in their windows (often another, larger one, inside the store) at Christmastime and folks would line up three deep to watch, just like you saw in A Christmas Story.Quite true but there was nothing unique about New York. A Christmas Story was partially filmed in Cleveland and that department store window is Higbee's, which is still there. They always had one window with a big Lionel and American Flyer layout and we were always lined up six deep to see it. My parents had to drag me away. Higbees also had about 25% of their floor space devoted to electric trains. I suspect model railroading might have been a much bigger thing in the Eastern urban parts (maybe all the urban areas?) of the country than in the Western/rural parts back then.In 1950, Cleveland was the ninth largest city in the country so that counts as a large Eastern urban area. I think what you witnessed was one of those rare times in history when being born a few years apart makes huge differences. Hardly any kids were being born in 1943 compared to 1946. I was born in February, 1946, the very beginning of the baby boom. A tidal wave followed me. You were a senior in high school when I was a freshman. I remember very clearly that our freshman class was twice as big as our senior class. It was a time of duck tails, leather jackets, juvenile deliquents, and model trains were fading from most teenager's choice of hobbies. I witnessed the same rare period in history from when I graduated in 1964 until my sister graduated in 1968. Drugs were essentially unknown when I was in high school. By the time my sister graduated, they had become an epidemic. Regards, Jim Reply andrechapelon Member sinceSeptember 2002 From: California & Maine 3,848 posts Posted by andrechapelon on Thursday, October 4, 2007 8:09 AM Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. Born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual. Most of the kids I knew had trains (tin-plate) of one sort or another and RR dominated hobby shops abounded. My dad had an operating HO attic layout in the late 1930's. I always went through his MRs. Growing up, I recall every department store had an elaborate train display in their windows (often another, larger one, inside the store) at Christmastime and folks would line up three deep to watch, just like you saw in A Christmas Story. As I related previously, Joe DiMaggio had a weekly show on TV out of the city sponsored by Lionel and I seem to recall there was briefly also one by Gilbert. Visited both in Manhattan occasionally. Right up through high school it wasn't uncommon to hear guys talking about their tin-plate layouts set up year-round in their basements. It was never looked upon as odd even in my later teens.I suspect model railroading might have been a much bigger thing in the Eastern urban parts of the country than in the West back then. I do recall an awful lot of the manufacturers were Eastcoasters back then - even had one in town and a couple in adjoining communities.CNJ831 I'm quite sure location had something to do with it, primarily because the population of the US had a definite Eastern bias when we were both kids. Back then, NY and PA were the two largest states in terms of population whereas today, CA and TX occupy the #1 and #2 spots respectively. The East had a bigger potential market back then. As for the department store displays, they were out in the West as well. I can remember displays in Sears, Penney's and Montgomery Ward. There just weren't as many stores in the West back then. You could also buy trains through the stores' catalog deparments and the Christmas catalogs from the above mentioned stores were my favorites back then. Certainly all the toy train manufacturers were based in the East. OTOH, a number of West Coast scale manufacturers were in business at the time (Suydam, Tru-Scale, Model Die Casting, Bowser, e.g.). There was at least one TV train show that I can remember from the 50's that came out of LA on channel 9. Program was hosted by a character named "Engineer Bill". As I recall, he had HO trains on his show rather than Lionel or AF. Most houses in the West weren't equipped with basements, so the alternative was a garage or spare room.It seems like the history of my interest in model trains can be broken down into 3 phases:1. Kid to young adult which meant that while I may have had the time, I didn't have the money or the space.2. Adulthood to middle age: As I got older, I started to have the money, but lacked the time and the space.3. Middle age to retirement: As I got older, I managed to acquire sufficient funds, and I now have the space and time, but I find myself caught in the quandary of trying to decide whether or not to return to my 3 rail roots and build something that the grandkids might enjoy and be a part of as they get older or to stick with HO and build a layout based on SP's Monterey Branch. Most toy train layouts give me the vapors. However, a Hi-rail layout something along the lines of Joe Lesser's (http://www.amazon.com/Realistic-Railroading-Toy-Trains-Lesser/dp/0897783999) layout might be the answer. As I write this, I'm looking at a Rail-King NW-2 in Santa Fe's Zebra stripe. There's a 3 unit A-B-A set of K-Line Santa Fe Warbonnet F-3's in a box upstairs. Decisions, decisions, decisions.Please pardon my ramblings.Andre It's really kind of hard to support your local hobby shop when the nearest hobby shop that's worth the name is a 150 mile roundtrip. Reply marknewton Member sinceDecember 2002 From: Sydney, Australia 1,939 posts Posted by marknewton on Thursday, October 4, 2007 7:50 AM CNJ831 wrote:...allow me to point out something that so often seems to escape posters here: baseless personal opinion is not the same thing as demonstrable fact...We can all have our own personal outlooks on things but that doesn't establish their accuracy or validity, only facts can.Absolutely, CNJ - but a number of your posts in this thread constain statements that are demonstrably wrong. And your parochialism is once again colouring your opinions. So, honestly, can your comments carry any real weight, or have much validity? It is based on a mythical, essentially TV cartoon character...Thomas is based on a series of books that first went into print in 1945. And the locomotive itself is closely modelled on a real, non-mythical engine, as are most of the Thomas characters.it is largely a European-styled...in no way resembles any American locomotiveIt's entirely British in style. Can't you tell the difference?As for it not resembling an American engine, so bloody what? It doesn't resemble many Australian engines either, but in my experience, kids would almost always call the engine I used to work "Henry" - because it was big and green. That's how kids think - they don't give a toss about prototypical accuracy. Now tell me, what's been your experience when small children encounter a real locomotive that reminds them, however vaguely, of a Thomas character?do trains really converse and have eyes, noses and mouths?No, John, they don't. But only a miserable, dried-up old curmudgeon with no imagination or sense of child-like fun and wonder would ask such a question. On the other side of the coin, the hobby manufacturers, who so many credit (and rightfully so) with a actual knowledge of what is happening in the hobby and where it it's likely to go in the future, have all but totally ignored Thomas items in their product lines.Tomix produce a large range of Thomas items in N scale, and I believe Bachmann have a OO scale Thomas range. For someone who professes to be knowledgable about the hobby and what the manufacturers are up to, it's surprising you didn't know that.Doesn't that say something to you with regard to how the industry views Thomas' impact on model railroading?I think it says a lot about their unwillingness or perhaps jst plain inabilty to pay the licensing fees that the franchise owners demand.I must say that in spite of the often seen claim that Thomas will have some sort of major future impact on the number of scale modelers, I fail to see any demonstrable tie-in whatever...The concept of Thomas as a major influence and source of future scale model railroaders is just totally unsubstantiated speculation and I would challenge anyone to show factual evidence of an actual major association between it and scale model railroading.Good, I'll take up that challenge. I'll start scanning and posting excerpts from the numerous articles from the UK scale railway modelling press over the last 25 years or so that credit the author's interest in scale railway modelling to reading/viewing Thomas the Tank Engine. That's enough of a "demonstrable tie-in" for you?Cheers,Mark. Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Wednesday, October 3, 2007 10:03 PM UP2CSX wrote: To almost everything Andre said. Born in the same year and grew up in Ohio and was one of six kids. I don't know where you grew up, CNJ, but your high school friends must have had better deportment than mine or Andre's. Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. As for me: born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual. Most of the kids I knew had trains (tin-plate) of one sort or another and RR dominated hobby shops abounded. My dad had an operating HO attic layout in the late 1930's. I always went through his MRs as soon as I learned to read. Growing up, I recall every department store had an elaborate train display in their windows (often another, larger one, inside the store) at Christmastime and folks would line up three deep to watch, just like you saw in A Christmas Story. Recall sales were very brisk, with inventories often exhausted before Dec. 25th. As I related previously, Joe DiMaggio had a weekly show on TV out of the city, sponsored by Lionel and I seem to recall there was briefly also one by Gilbert. Visited both in Manhattan occasionally...mobbed at Christmastime. Right up through high school it wasn't uncommon to hear guys talking about their tin-plate layouts set up year-round in their basements. It was never looked upon as odd even in my later teens.I suspect model railroading might have been a much bigger thing in the Eastern urban parts (maybe all the urban areas?) of the country than in the Western/rural parts back then. I do recall an awful lot of the manufacturers were Eastcoasters back then - even had one in town and a couple in adjoining communities.CNJ831 Reply UP2CSX Member sinceJune 2007 From: Prattville AL 705 posts Posted by UP2CSX on Wednesday, October 3, 2007 5:26 PM To almost everything Andre said. Born in the same year and grew up in Ohio and was one of six kids. The issue of relative wealth might actually be more important than I've thought about. If you had a train layout when you were in high school, you were considered a little "odd" if not a downright nerd. I was lucky - I played football and most of the kids didn't mess with me but I knew others who were taunted unmercifully about their "train sets". I don't know where you grew up, CNJ, but your high school friends must have had better deportment than mine or Andre's. Andre, the only difference with your interest in airpanes and mine is that at least yours got into the air long enough to crash. After three crashes on takeoffs, I decided I was better off with trains. Regards, Jim Reply 1234 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
Thanks for letting me know. I thought it was some kind of TV show or something.
Well that just shows how much that have influenced me anyways!"
Magnus
Magnus,
The World Greatest Hobby (WGH) is a program in the sense that it's a series of train shows around the US that people can attend each year. (I don't know if they have a series in Europe or not.) Every year it's a different set of cities the WGH visit.
I went to one in Pittsburgh this past January. It was a lot of fun. Wall-to-wall people and kids. I drove from Cleveland so it took me a couple of hours to get there. The show went from 10-6 on Saturday. I didn't arrive till 10:15 AM but it was already getting crowded.
Most of the big locomotive manufactures were there. There were a number of vendors, as well as a few nice layout. (Saw my first Z-scale layout.) They also had an indoor 7-1/2 scale loop for the little kids (and BIG kids) to ride on. One of the keys to the show was that kids under 16 got in FREE. Made for a nice and inexpensive day out with the family.
When I left the show at ~3:00 PM, kids and adults were still filing in, in long lines.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Is the WGH program available for download? Because if the target is younger people the Internet and downloading is the way to go. Observe, I'm talking about a legal download.
I would like to see it to be honest.
Andre:
"Perhaps more than half of your peers did have train sets. One thing you haven't stated is what socio-economic group you were in as a kid. That does make a difference. We weren't poor, but with 5 of us kids, there wasn't a lot of disposable income left over to indulge a passion for trains."
I, also was one of 5 in a working class family. My American Flyer S guage was a Christmas present for which I had begged. Many of my friends had the Lionel O guage trains and many of the accessories that made them more fun, but my financial situation did not allow for all those extras.
My teenage HO railroad was purchased, one peice at a time, with the money I made on my paper route.
Where there is a will, there is a way............
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Great story, PV! Thanks for sharing!
Hoping that your granddaughters keep the passion for trains...even after boys come along.
My personal experience:
As a child I had an American Flyer S guage toy train. Several of my friends has Lionel O guage. I chose S because it looked more realistic (2 rails). As a teenager I changed to HO for the same reason; More realistic.
When I went into the Navy, is all just somehow went away.
Fast forward almost 40 years.
My granddaughters currently ages 4 and 8, are totally enthralled with the Thomas Show. They have the wooden trains. So I bought a Thomas HO set for them to play with at my house.
It went over far bigger than I anticipated. They spent hours running him around the circle of track on a tabletop. They fought for each turn. So I decided Thomas needed more track on which to run. I got a 4x8 sheet of plywood and bought the Woodland Scenics River Pass and began to assemble it. Suddenly the eldest was more interested in the construction than in playing with the train. As assembly progressed, both of them began to grow bored with the circle, and wanted to run Thomas on the new layout. In the meantime, Grandpa began to remember how much fun it had been building this stuff in his youth.
My two car garage now houses a large and growing layout. The grandchildren prefer the "real trains" because one has sound. All, including Thomas, are now DCC.
We recently took them to a model railroad show. They really enjoyed it.
Last weekend we attended "A Day out with Thomas" at the North Carolina Transportation Museum. They had their first train ride. They toured the roundhouse, and saw lots of real trains. They saw an Amtrak F40PH sitting on a siding waiting to be restored, and got excited because it looks just like the one on our layout. They even noticed that the number on the side is only 1 digit different from the number on "ours".
They now are really enjoying the model trains, want to take a trip somewhere, anywhere, on a real train, and have begun asking to go sit in the car near the tracks to watch trains go by.
Thomas was the catalyst. We have also recently aquired a Bachmann Hogwart's Express too, but most of the model trains are real trains.
They have never even heard of the World's Greatest Hobby program, but they really like trains, and are struggling to understand why passenger trains are no longer popular.
I rode the Erie Lackawanna Phoebe Snow to and from Chicago while I was in the Navy. But the wife of 40 years had never been on a train until recently. We recently took Amtrak from Charlotte, NC to Richmond, VA. She enjoyed it. She is now suggesting that we need a steam engine with sound for the garage train.
...And it's all because of Thomas!
andrechapelon wrote:To my knowledge Tomix is no major player in the U.S. I barely recognize the name. As to Bachmann's Thomas, I think I've seen seen one ad for them since they came out. Over here Thomas is pretty much synonymous with wooden push toys, battery-power pre-K items and bed sheets. Those are no direct lead-in to our hobbyOdd. My local train store (The Train Shop in Santa Clara) carries quite a range of Thomas items (Bachmann, Tomix, et. al.) in its inventory. The last time I was there, there was at least one complete row of Thomas items. I have no idea why owners are betting their future revenue on such an obvious dead end.
To my knowledge Tomix is no major player in the U.S. I barely recognize the name. As to Bachmann's Thomas, I think I've seen seen one ad for them since they came out. Over here Thomas is pretty much synonymous with wooden push toys, battery-power pre-K items and bed sheets. Those are no direct lead-in to our hobby
Odd. My local train store (The Train Shop in Santa Clara) carries quite a range of Thomas items (Bachmann, Tomix, et. al.) in its inventory. The last time I was there, there was at least one complete row of Thomas items. I have no idea why owners are betting their future revenue on such an obvious dead end.
Hi guys
"Right that's it cream buns at dawn"
Euro style indeed Bah!! no need to insult Thomas with inaccuracies
Thomas is an NER locomotive I forget which class which most definitely makes him English, you Know the ones those guys you kicked out in 1776, and then hired to build your first railways locomotives.
Not the Europeans that's what the English channel is for to divide the English from the Europeans
regards John
Thomas wins hands down after all he is some where around seventy 70 years old
First as ladybird children's books which I had as a child, then much much later as the TV show.
How long has the Worlds Greatest Hobby Program been going not that long.
Have you noticed how many children recognise a steam loco but have never seen a real one, in Aus we still use the steam engine silhouette for a level crossing warning sign and children recognise that even when they don't recognise the other road signs
I've never seen any mention of WGH in anything but the railroad hobby press. We do have a couple of cartons of the full color hand outs at our club, and they do get handed out to our visitors at open house, but I think if the goal is to reach out to people, you have to go where they are, not wait till they come through your door.
Does WGH advertise in wood working or other craft style magazines? What about "Men's Health" or other such venues? I've seen curiosities like gem encrusted trains in the Neiman Marcus catalog, but what about a sound equipped DCC train set targeted to the Sharper Image crowd?
I'll put my money on Thomas. He may not be the one to fan the flames, but he sure ignites a spark in the fertile imagination of a little kid.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
In view of all that has been said, and when considering that the hobby is far greater than the sum of its parts, is it at all possible that its provenance is also greater than the two sides of this debate? Perhaps something like a steadily rising mean income or sound-equipped locomotives, or perhaps it is just that some folks don't cotton on to the virtual world of gaming and want something more concrete is as instrumental in the hobby's sustainability. If only someone could provide incontrovertible proof that the hobby is in decline, in ascent, at its nadir, or at its zenith, we would be halfway towards resolving this impasse...because that is what I have concluded it is.
Is MTH, for example, in its death throes and madly, desperately promising more than it can rationally anticipate selling with its latest HO announcement? Should we assume there is no ethics in the gentleman who replied to that thread on behalf of MTH with, of all crazy things, an assertion that he is to market even more in the HO locomotive world than the Company currently does? Or, would it be just as reasonable to conclude that the HO market, at least, is doing quite promisingly, thanks very much, and their investment offers more than mere hope for their success? Is Atlas continuing its monthly announcements of soon-to-be mailed rolling stock and locomotives because it is not receiving a return on its investment dollars and because it does not continue to get orders in sufficient numbers that it can sustain its output? On the other hand, is that output declining over time, and how would all of us find out? If absolute numbers of produced items in their catalogs were to show a longitudinal trend in the past, say, 20 years, I would agree that it is a highly likely sign that the hobby is in decline. In the absence of any such or similar data, I'm afraid I will not be convinced one way or another.
Nieuweboer wrote: I'm abolutely convinced that the major influence by far are a father, a granddad,an uncle, a nephew,a brother or a friend of the family who are model railroaders or railfans and show the kid the layout, take him railfanning and visit shows.Of course love of trains must be a bit in the genes too. IMHO these factors have a greater impact than either Thomas or WGH promotion.
I'm abolutely convinced that the major influence by far are a father, a granddad,an uncle, a nephew,a brother or a friend of the family who are model railroaders or railfans and show the kid the layout, take him railfanning and visit shows.Of course love of trains must be a bit in the genes too. IMHO these factors have a greater impact than either Thomas or WGH promotion.
You've hit the proverbial nail right on the head. Consider my own family's situation:
I have two sons and two nephews, ranging in age from 11 to 15, who happen to love trains in one form or another (note that I haven't specified "model railroading" yet). My older son loved Thomas as a young boy, and has progressed to a fascination with passenger rail (light rail, commuter and Amtrak in particular; freight barely interests him); my younger son did not care for Thomas all too much, but now is interested in N-scale modeling; their two (male) cousins both loved Thomas and have become enthusiastic railfans as well as modelers. All four love train shows, but it is my younger son who absolutely loves model operations and layout construction.
Did WGH matter one bit in encouraging the interest on the part of any of these boys? Not at all. Did Thomas? Yes, but not to the extent one might expect given theor ages. (indeed, the one who spend the most of his money on model train is the one who didn't care for Thomas) What has influenced them was the passion my father and I have for trains, and the manner in which we tailored the modeling/railfanning hobbies to other things each boy likes (electronics, photography, maps, to name a few).
So my bottom line is that, were I to choose only between the two alternatives offered, I would have to say Thomas wins hands-down almost by default. However, neither of them means squat without the personal introduction an experienced enthusiast can provide to the hobby and its many aspects.
Juan
UP2CSX wrote: CNJ writes: Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. As for me: born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual. Not once the baby boom started. Many of my friends had at least four kids in the family and five or six wasn't rare.
CNJ writes: Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. As for me: born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual.
Not once the baby boom started. Many of my friends had at least four kids in the family and five or six wasn't rare.
Again, perhaps a regional situation but certainly opposed to what I experienced. In my area, post war, the number of families rose sharply, however the number of children per household remained relatively constant around two. The only large families I can recall from the 40's through the 50's - and please nobody get insulted because that's not the intent here - were those in the lower economic levels, those of first generation immigrants, and some post-war refugees. This was true right up through my high school years, by which time we were starting to see the size of families decline somewhat as wives began entering the work force again.
Also consider as indicators most "family" shows of the period on TV or the movies. The typical in the 50's was two kids (yes, I understand that's easier to write for than a bunch). So the TV programers, urbanites one and all, thought that was depicting the American standard too. Brady Bunch-sized families as the standard were still far in the future.
My wife, unbeknownst to me, picked up a Lionel Thomas set last Christmas from TTS and we set it up around the tree with the following results:
My now nearly 7 year old granddaughter wanted us to add more track, some switches, a station, more cars and some trees. She got a kick out of running Thomas back and forth and blowing his whistle. She had me cut out a cardboard box to make a "tunnel". She seems to be ready for the next step.
My now 3 year old granddaughter got an equal kick out of running Thomas but isn't advanced enough yet to insist on the add ons. It's just a matter of time.
My then 15 month old grandson was a bit intimidated by the whole thing, although he did get a kick out of blowing the whistle. Nearly a year later, he's mad about Thomas. In fact, at his birthday in September, virtually all his gifts were Thomas related. He has quite a "layout" consisting of Thomas items, not to mention DVD's, blankets and tee shirts. At roughly his age, I was given a Marx windup set which was no more realistic than Thomas. That was the beginning.
The little engine that could . . .
Donald with Chip and Dale . . .
Down by the station early in the morning . . .
Thomas and his Friends . . .
The Polar Express . . .
I find it amazing how some people think our children's TOYS should be an N Scale Erie Triplex with smoke and sound else it does not represent anything that could possibly influence a child into liking or thinking about model trains and our beloved hobby.
"dried-up old curmudgeon" reminds me of another Christmas favorite, 'The Grinch who stole Christmas'.
I'd like to think that anything that has some level of positive moral basis that fascinates or captures a child's interest is of value, especially when it involves trains. One only has to have a child bring home a real full sized sword and start clinging to the goth scene to appreciate the value of Thomas and his friends. . .
Joe
OK, so there's still a lot of back and forth on this subject... but it seems (now) to be pointing towards kids don't get "realistic" or "good" toy trains anymore (Lionel, AF, etc)...
Kinda seems like what you're saying agrees with the Lionel view of last Christmastime -- get trains into the bog stores at an "affordable" price. Now, I don't know much about Lionel prices outside of the walmart set, so I can't say how well (or poorly) that scheme panned out for Lionel. I did want to get one though....
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
marknewton wrote: (CNJ states:)...allow me to point out something that so often seems to escape posters here: baseless personal opinion is not the same thing as demonstrable fact...We can all have our own personal outlooks on things but that doesn't establish their accuracy or validity, only facts can....Absolutely, CNJ - but a number of your posts in this thread constain statements that are demonstrably wrong. And your parochialism is once again colouring your opinions. So, honestly, can your comments carry any real weight, or have much validity?
It is based on a mythical, essentially TV cartoon character...Thomas is based on a series of books that first went into print in 1945. And the locomotive itself is closely modelled on a real, non-mythical engine, as are most of the Thomas characters.
While I'm quite familiar with the books, the American public in generally is not. Thomas is looked up in the States simply as a live action cartoon character, nothing more and similar to Sponge Bob. It's viewed in the same light as the U.S. "Little Engine That Could"...an understood fiction or caricature morality tale.
it is largely a European-styled...in no way resembles any American locomotive.... It's entirely British in style. Can't you tell the difference?
On this side of the pond, England is considered just another part of Europe. Their locomorives are of a distinctly different appearance and style from ours that most post-K children will quickly preceive on comparison.
...do trains really converse and have eyes, noses and mouths?...No, John, they don't. But only a miserable, dried-up old curmudgeon with no imagination or sense of child-like fun and wonder would ask such a question.
No, just realistic. So, we're going to lower ourself to name calling now? How truly sad on you part. I had previously regarded your posts as instructive and worthwhile. Gotta re-think that. Nevertheless, such features as faces in a toy doom it to remain as such. It's a long way from Lionel which, incidentally, moved away from the hokey stuff with faces in the '30's.
On the other side of the coin, the hobby manufacturers, who so many credit (and rightfully so) with a actual knowledge of what is happening in the hobby and where it it's likely to go in the future, have all but totally ignored Thomas items in their product lines....Tomix produce a large range of Thomas items in N scale, and I believe Bachmann have a OO scale Thomas range. For someone who professes to be knowledgable about the hobby and what the manufacturers are up to, it's surprising you didn't know that.
To my knowledge Tomix is no major player in the U.S. I barely recognize the name. As to Bachmann's Thomas, I think I've seen seen one ad for them since they came out. Over here Thomas is pretty much synonymous with wooden push toys, battery-power pre-K items and bed sheets. Those are no direct lead-in to our hobby.
Doesn't that say something to you with regard to how the industry views Thomas' impact on model railroading?...I think it says a lot about their unwillingness or perhaps jst plain inabilty to pay the licensing fees that the franchise owners demand.
Ah, the old, "if the industry doesn't think like me, then it's the industry that's wrong" approach. Interesting viewpoint. The situation still reflects the industry's outlook, in a time when it's desparately searching around for new customers (and were willing to spend over a million dollars on WGH in doing so), that Thomas isn't the way to go to find them in the U.S.
I must say that in spite of the often seen claim that Thomas will have some sort of major future impact on the number of scale modelers, I fail to see any demonstrable tie-in whatever...The concept of Thomas as a major influence and source of future scale model railroaders is just totally unsubstantiated speculation and I would challenge anyone to show factual evidence of an actual major association between it and scale model railroading....Good, I'll take up that challenge. I'll start scanning and posting excerpts from the numerous articles from the UK scale railway modelling press over the last 25 years or so that credit the author's interest in scale railway modelling to reading/viewing Thomas the Tank Engine. That's enough of a "demonstrable tie-in" for you?
Scan and post away! What happens in the UK or appears in its rail publication hasn't had any tie-in, implications, nor signigficant influence on what the U.S. hobby is doing or where it's going since the late 20's. What's the point? You're dealing with almost exclusively a North American audience here, discussing a subject that some argue could affect the hobby's outcome here. What's happening with the hobby in other far flung corners of the globe is largely irrelevant to the question at hand. CNJ831
Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. As for me: born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual.
Growing up, I recall every department store had an elaborate train display in their windows (often another, larger one, inside the store) at Christmastime and folks would line up three deep to watch, just like you saw in A Christmas Story.
Quite true but there was nothing unique about New York. A Christmas Story was partially filmed in Cleveland and that department store window is Higbee's, which is still there. They always had one window with a big Lionel and American Flyer layout and we were always lined up six deep to see it. My parents had to drag me away. Higbees also had about 25% of their floor space devoted to electric trains.
I suspect model railroading might have been a much bigger thing in the Eastern urban parts (maybe all the urban areas?) of the country than in the Western/rural parts back then.
In 1950, Cleveland was the ninth largest city in the country so that counts as a large Eastern urban area. I think what you witnessed was one of those rare times in history when being born a few years apart makes huge differences. Hardly any kids were being born in 1943 compared to 1946. I was born in February, 1946, the very beginning of the baby boom. A tidal wave followed me. You were a senior in high school when I was a freshman. I remember very clearly that our freshman class was twice as big as our senior class. It was a time of duck tails, leather jackets, juvenile deliquents, and model trains were fading from most teenager's choice of hobbies. I witnessed the same rare period in history from when I graduated in 1964 until my sister graduated in 1968. Drugs were essentially unknown when I was in high school. By the time my sister graduated, they had become an epidemic.
Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. Born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual. Most of the kids I knew had trains (tin-plate) of one sort or another and RR dominated hobby shops abounded. My dad had an operating HO attic layout in the late 1930's. I always went through his MRs. Growing up, I recall every department store had an elaborate train display in their windows (often another, larger one, inside the store) at Christmastime and folks would line up three deep to watch, just like you saw in A Christmas Story. As I related previously, Joe DiMaggio had a weekly show on TV out of the city sponsored by Lionel and I seem to recall there was briefly also one by Gilbert. Visited both in Manhattan occasionally. Right up through high school it wasn't uncommon to hear guys talking about their tin-plate layouts set up year-round in their basements. It was never looked upon as odd even in my later teens.I suspect model railroading might have been a much bigger thing in the Eastern urban parts of the country than in the West back then. I do recall an awful lot of the manufacturers were Eastcoasters back then - even had one in town and a couple in adjoining communities.CNJ831
Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. Born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual. Most of the kids I knew had trains (tin-plate) of one sort or another and RR dominated hobby shops abounded. My dad had an operating HO attic layout in the late 1930's. I always went through his MRs. Growing up, I recall every department store had an elaborate train display in their windows (often another, larger one, inside the store) at Christmastime and folks would line up three deep to watch, just like you saw in A Christmas Story. As I related previously, Joe DiMaggio had a weekly show on TV out of the city sponsored by Lionel and I seem to recall there was briefly also one by Gilbert. Visited both in Manhattan occasionally. Right up through high school it wasn't uncommon to hear guys talking about their tin-plate layouts set up year-round in their basements. It was never looked upon as odd even in my later teens.
I suspect model railroading might have been a much bigger thing in the Eastern urban parts of the country than in the West back then. I do recall an awful lot of the manufacturers were Eastcoasters back then - even had one in town and a couple in adjoining communities.
I'm quite sure location had something to do with it, primarily because the population of the US had a definite Eastern bias when we were both kids. Back then, NY and PA were the two largest states in terms of population whereas today, CA and TX occupy the #1 and #2 spots respectively. The East had a bigger potential market back then.
As for the department store displays, they were out in the West as well. I can remember displays in Sears, Penney's and Montgomery Ward. There just weren't as many stores in the West back then. You could also buy trains through the stores' catalog deparments and the Christmas catalogs from the above mentioned stores were my favorites back then. Certainly all the toy train manufacturers were based in the East. OTOH, a number of West Coast scale manufacturers were in business at the time (Suydam, Tru-Scale, Model Die Casting, Bowser, e.g.).
There was at least one TV train show that I can remember from the 50's that came out of LA on channel 9. Program was hosted by a character named "Engineer Bill". As I recall, he had HO trains on his show rather than Lionel or AF. Most houses in the West weren't equipped with basements, so the alternative was a garage or spare room.
It seems like the history of my interest in model trains can be broken down into 3 phases:
1. Kid to young adult which meant that while I may have had the time, I didn't have the money or the space.
2. Adulthood to middle age: As I got older, I started to have the money, but lacked the time and the space.
3. Middle age to retirement: As I got older, I managed to acquire sufficient funds, and I now have the space and time, but I find myself caught in the quandary of trying to decide whether or not to return to my 3 rail roots and build something that the grandkids might enjoy and be a part of as they get older or to stick with HO and build a layout based on SP's Monterey Branch. Most toy train layouts give me the vapors. However, a Hi-rail layout something along the lines of Joe Lesser's (http://www.amazon.com/Realistic-Railroading-Toy-Trains-Lesser/dp/0897783999) layout might be the answer. As I write this, I'm looking at a Rail-King NW-2 in Santa Fe's Zebra stripe. There's a 3 unit A-B-A set of K-Line Santa Fe Warbonnet F-3's in a box upstairs. Decisions, decisions, decisions.
Please pardon my ramblings.
CNJ831 wrote:...allow me to point out something that so often seems to escape posters here: baseless personal opinion is not the same thing as demonstrable fact...We can all have our own personal outlooks on things but that doesn't establish their accuracy or validity, only facts can.
It is based on a mythical, essentially TV cartoon character...
it is largely a European-styled...in no way resembles any American locomotive
do trains really converse and have eyes, noses and mouths?
On the other side of the coin, the hobby manufacturers, who so many credit (and rightfully so) with a actual knowledge of what is happening in the hobby and where it it's likely to go in the future, have all but totally ignored Thomas items in their product lines.
Doesn't that say something to you with regard to how the industry views Thomas' impact on model railroading?
I must say that in spite of the often seen claim that Thomas will have some sort of major future impact on the number of scale modelers, I fail to see any demonstrable tie-in whatever...The concept of Thomas as a major influence and source of future scale model railroaders is just totally unsubstantiated speculation and I would challenge anyone to show factual evidence of an actual major association between it and scale model railroading.
UP2CSX wrote: To almost everything Andre said. Born in the same year and grew up in Ohio and was one of six kids. I don't know where you grew up, CNJ, but your high school friends must have had better deportment than mine or Andre's.
To almost everything Andre said. Born in the same year and grew up in Ohio and was one of six kids. I don't know where you grew up, CNJ, but your high school friends must have had better deportment than mine or Andre's.
Hmmm. Apparently a decided dichotomy in experiences inspite of similar eras, perhaps because of location. As for me: born in '43, suburbs of NYC, average middle class family for the time. Back then typical families in the area had 2 kids. Really big families were rather unusual. Most of the kids I knew had trains (tin-plate) of one sort or another and RR dominated hobby shops abounded. My dad had an operating HO attic layout in the late 1930's. I always went through his MRs as soon as I learned to read. Growing up, I recall every department store had an elaborate train display in their windows (often another, larger one, inside the store) at Christmastime and folks would line up three deep to watch, just like you saw in A Christmas Story. Recall sales were very brisk, with inventories often exhausted before Dec. 25th. As I related previously, Joe DiMaggio had a weekly show on TV out of the city, sponsored by Lionel and I seem to recall there was briefly also one by Gilbert. Visited both in Manhattan occasionally...mobbed at Christmastime. Right up through high school it wasn't uncommon to hear guys talking about their tin-plate layouts set up year-round in their basements. It was never looked upon as odd even in my later teens.
I suspect model railroading might have been a much bigger thing in the Eastern urban parts (maybe all the urban areas?) of the country than in the Western/rural parts back then. I do recall an awful lot of the manufacturers were Eastcoasters back then - even had one in town and a couple in adjoining communities.
To almost everything Andre said. Born in the same year and grew up in Ohio and was one of six kids. The issue of relative wealth might actually be more important than I've thought about. If you had a train layout when you were in high school, you were considered a little "odd" if not a downright nerd. I was lucky - I played football and most of the kids didn't mess with me but I knew others who were taunted unmercifully about their "train sets". I don't know where you grew up, CNJ, but your high school friends must have had better deportment than mine or Andre's.
Andre, the only difference with your interest in airpanes and mine is that at least yours got into the air long enough to crash. After three crashes on takeoffs, I decided I was better off with trains.