Brakie,If we were comparing DC to DCC, then yes, I would use MSRP.to compare them. However, what is being discussed was the original poster's claim that he would have to spend $1500 or more on DCC. In that case, real street prices should be used if you want to be fair about it.
BTW, I don't know why you feel it's "unbelieveable" that a digital, dual-cab, back-lit, multi-line, DCC radio/IR throttle is $230 MSRP that can run trains, throw switches, program decoders, display a fast clock, that can find locomotives with transponding, and can turn the whole layout on and off. Oh, and it's got a built in flashlight, too. Compare that to Aristo's wireless DC throttle (which doesn't even have a display). With one extra receiver, it would cost $303 MSRP...and that's not even close to what the DT400R throttle brings to the table.
I don't know what you mean by "buttering up the true cost of DCC". The "true" cost is how much you actually pay...otherwise it wouldn't be "true". Right? So why insist on using MSRP to determine the "true cost" of DCC?
Also, please stop bringing your locos into the discussion. What does that have to do with the price of rice in China? The whole point of this discussion was the cost of converting to DCC, not starting fresh in the hobby. How much you spent on your sound locos has nothing to do with how much it would cost someone to convert to DCC.
tomikawaTT,"Flailing away at"? News to me. I thought I was merely expressing my opinion. Oh, well...
As for the rest, I wasn't talking about you or those like you, but those that cry poor mouth while having a model railroader hobby budget that would make Bill Gates blush (well, no, not really, but it's for humorous/dramatic effect). I've seen it on the forums for years. It's the "Poor little me, I can't convert to DCC because I can't afford it!," yet in another thread they say, "Look at my three new BLI's I just bought for $900!" Obviously, these modelers that can buy multiple locos per month can afford DCC, they simply choose not to. However, your situation is different, and certainly not the subject matter of my opinion. To you, it's not worth it, which is far different from saying that you can't afford it.
BTW, aren't those old DC cabs sweet? Heh. That particular one (Cab 7) dates from the late 1970's, but it's a copy of our old ones that went back to 1953.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote:Mark Newton,You noticed that, eh? Those that seem to complain the loudest about the cost of DCC have the largest locomotive fleets...which indicates to me that they can darn well afford the cost of converting to DCC, they just choose not to (but are trying to justify that on economic grounds rather than on their emotional ones). I have little sympathy for those that have hundreds of locos who complain about money...I therefore find it vastly ironic that those who are buying 3 locos a month (or more!) complain and complain about much DCC would cost them.
Mark Newton,You noticed that, eh? Those that seem to complain the loudest about the cost of DCC have the largest locomotive fleets...which indicates to me that they can darn well afford the cost of converting to DCC, they just choose not to (but are trying to justify that on economic grounds rather than on their emotional ones). I have little sympathy for those that have hundreds of locos who complain about money...I therefore find it vastly ironic that those who are buying 3 locos a month (or more!) complain and complain about much DCC would cost them.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
jasperofzeal wrote:I agree with your thoughts on this part and it's too bad too many people fall into this mentality. Baby steps is the way to go.
I agree with your thoughts on this part and it's too bad too many people fall into this mentality. Baby steps is the way to go.
On this part I partially disagree since I'm one of those "bowerbirds?" in that I want to amass a large fleet of locomotives. My purpose in doing this is that I want to collect at least one of each type of engine that I like. If I plan on running them, then I get more than one. The difference though is that for the most part, I just want to display them, so I get or make dummy locos. I do have powered locos too, but if and when I venture into DCC, I wont convert every single one I own to run on DCC, I'll probably just do some. All the locos I have, I'm making sure they're of equal quality and realism in the details deptartment.
tomikawaTT wrote:Granted you were addressing Mark (who is a DCC user,) but, as one of the people you seem to be flailing away at, let me fire back.When I could afford 3 locos a MONTH, they all had open frame motors and noisy gearboxes. That period only lasted a few months, but it was the time when I acquired most of my roster. At todays prices, I can either buy three locos a YEAR or spend the money on my last in this lifetime layout - or on converting to a system that has no significant advantages FOR ME, and major disadvantages.My position is reasoned and logical, not emotional...
Granted you were addressing Mark (who is a DCC user,) but, as one of the people you seem to be flailing away at, let me fire back.
When I could afford 3 locos a MONTH, they all had open frame motors and noisy gearboxes. That period only lasted a few months, but it was the time when I acquired most of my roster. At todays prices, I can either buy three locos a YEAR or spend the money on my last in this lifetime layout - or on converting to a system that has no significant advantages FOR ME, and major disadvantages.
My position is reasoned and logical, not emotional...
Paul3 wrote:If we were comparing DC to DCC, then yes, I would use MSRP.to compare them. However, what is being discussed was the original poster's claim that he would have to spend $1500 or more on DCC. In that case, real street prices should be used if you want to be fair about it.
If we were comparing DC to DCC, then yes, I would use MSRP.to compare them. However, what is being discussed was the original poster's claim that he would have to spend $1500 or more on DCC. In that case, real street prices should be used if you want to be fair about it.
marknewton wrote: Paul3 wrote: If we were comparing DC to DCC, then yes, I would use MSRP.to compare them. However, what is being discussed was the original poster's claim that he would have to spend $1500 or more on DCC. In that case, real street prices should be used if you want to be fair about it.Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story". Cheers,Mark.
Paul3 wrote: If we were comparing DC to DCC, then yes, I would use MSRP.to compare them. However, what is being discussed was the original poster's claim that he would have to spend $1500 or more on DCC. In that case, real street prices should be used if you want to be fair about it.
Actually you can't butter the full MSRP away..After all anybody that can check DCC manufacturers web pages can add up the cost of conversion..Even using Tony's Train Exchange prices one can add up the real costs.
So troll attack away and you still not change the real cost of DCC conversion.
Its a choice one must make based on solid facts..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I "joust" with Brakie on the Atlas forum many times, but he always has good reasons for what he thinks. And he does have facts.
I posted earlier about my experiences with DCC, which are mostly positive. And yes, I do have some bucks tied up. With around 200 diesels, my decoder costs are interesting, although I have a lot of Atlas with decoders already installed, but which also adds to the price.
I use NCE radio wireless, but also have a cab buss on the layout, in fact, two cab busses because of the size. I have the command station and four boosters (4 power districts). I have 5 Procabs, 8 CAB04PR wireless cabs (my favorites) and another 7 of the original CAB04P pre wireless. My crews attending operating sessions generally prefer the cabo4 cabs for running as they don't care for the size of the NCE T bone. I prefer cab04p because they pay more attention to the running than looking at the display and having wrecks.
However, the sound units, which number around 10 out of the 200 require the T bone Procabs.
I also have a separate NCE command station and a booster in the work room where I do testing, breaking in new engines, etc.
I have also been buying NCE since 1999, so the cost is spread over 8 years time. I have a lot invested in NCE but that was my choice, just like Brakie makes his choice to stay DC.
My problem with DCC is it is being harder and harder for a non technician to understand and maintain. I recently sent two NEW repeaters for the radio back to NCE because I "fried them". I am no way an electronics expert. My degrees are in theology, although I also worked as a Programmer, Systems Analyst, Systems Engineer for all of my adult life with Santa Fe and then the Federal Reserve Bank. That does not make me an electronics expert. Now in retirement, I still pastor a church and run trains. And at my "older age" I don't pick up new technology easily. But I still like and support DCC.
Bob
Larry, I have to agree with marknewton on this.
I started converting to DCC about 8 yrs ago. That was when I discovered that to just wire the last layout I'll ever own, I would have to lay out at least $2500 for rotary switches to allow for the 5 cabs I wanted, with 1 spare set of contacts for lights and one OFF position. Add in at least another $500 or so for proper size wire, panel and structure lights, etc. This would be for a three level 23' x 17' layout geared to heavy operations with multiple operators for local switching, branchline mine runs, local and thru passenger trains, 2 staging yards, and 3 active interchanges. Counting yard tracks, Rndhse tracks, mainlines, sidings and spurs, wiring for DC would result in well over 100 blocks. This also doesn't take into consideration the fact I would have to get some more hand helds so I could really have those 5 cabs, (I only had 2 that worked).
DCC was such a better economical choice, in fact, it was the only logical one I could make. A large number of modelers in my area had already converted to Digitrax DCC, and my club was doing the same. I started with an Empire Builder from Digitrax, and last year accquired a Super Chief. I have 21 locos total, 15 are steam, of which 9 are brass. Of the remaining steamers, 2 are Spectrums, the rest are kits or scratched. All had already been at least regeared and/or remotored before DCC, (Specs didn't need it). Of the 6 diesels I own, 1 is Atlas/Kato, 1 is P2K, the rest are Hobbytown chassis kits, (remotored only). All but 3 steamers and 1 diesel have decoders. I have also never spent more than $18 for a single decoder.
Loconet cable is no problem, as the day I retired from the hospital, the IT dept was throwing away a 1000' roll of CAT4 wire. They were having to rewire all the networks and were having to go to CAT5E. They gave me the wire. I have substantial network hardware training and experience, so I can make my own cable. The six conductor plugs needed for Loconet are less than 15 cents apiece here.
A friend gave me all the 12ga wire I need for my buses, for helping him with his layout. Plus I already have enough 22ga wire for as many feeders as I'll every need. This wire would have been a little light to use for anything requiring runs of more than 6' or so.
I have 4 AR units but will have to get 4 more to cover the upper levels, but that is a long time away and these also can be purchased 1 at a time. I also need to acquire several more of the UP5 panels to have total of 10, but again, several years away before I need them all.
All in all, I have spent over the past 8 years, about $1000, total, with only about an additional $300 more to spend and the entire control system is complete. That is still only about 1/2 the cost of the wiring and hardware I would have needed to accomplish the same thing in DC. Remember this is for a 23' x 17' layout.
The costs posted above are what I have paid over the past 8 years. My system is totally basic, no radio/wireless, sound, signals, etc for me. Don't want it or need it. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, Unless you want a system with literally every bell and whistle available, you can get DCC even for a large layout for less than $1500. I respect anyone who knows what they want in a control system and I expect others to respect my wants as well. If DC is your choice, good for you! I have not and will not try to "convert" you. But if you're like me, (getting older, stiffer, blinder, and esp broker!), anything to help make wiring easier, is a definite plus in my book!
Like others have commented, so far this has been a very civil conversation. But I do have to wonder, where is the OP?
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
Brakie,Have you slipped a cog? Why can't we "butter the full MSRP away" (if it means what I think it means)? You keep going on and on about the "real costs" as if we can't add it up ourselves. Well, here's an example for you. Say you have the following loco roster (which, oddly enough, is what I own currently on my layout right now):
LLP2K -3 x PA-12 x FA/B-11 x S-1
LLP1K - 4 x RDC2 x DL-1091 x RS-11
Atlas - 3 x S-1/21 x RS-31 x C-4252 x RS-11
Kato - 1 x RS-2
Athearn - 1 x RS-3
Bachmann Spectrum - 1 x 44tonner
That's 23 locos. These are the following decoders one would need to convert them all to DCC:
Digitrax - 8 x DH123D5 x DH123P4 x DH163A01 x DZ1231 x DN121
Tony's - 3 x AtlasS12341 x TTE RS-2
The costs for these decoders are as follows at Tony's:DH123D: $15.95 ea. or 4 @ $15.50 ea. ($19.99 MSRP ea.) = $124.00 ($159.92)DH123P: $19.50 ea. or 4 @ $18.50 ea. ($19.99 MSRP ea.) = $93.50 ($99.95)DH165A0: $22.95 ea. or 4 @ $20.95 ea. ($26.99 MSRP ea.) = $83.80 ($107.96)DZ123: $15.95 ($19.99 MSRP ea.) = $15.95 ($19.99)DN121: $19.95 ($24.95 MSRP ea.) = $19.95 ($24.95)AtlasS1234: $25.95 ea. ($29.95 ea.) = $77.85 ($89.95)TTE RS-2: $25.95 ea. ($29.95 MSRP ea.) = $25.95 ($29.95)
Doing the math, all these decoders will cost you $441.00. The MSRP for all these decoders would cost you $532.67.
Meanwhile, say you want a wireless walkaround DCC system with 4 throttle jacks. You can get a DT400R for $179.00 ($229.99 MSRP), a UR91 receiver $114.95 (149.99 MSRP), a Zephyr $159.95 ($19.99), and 4 UP5 panel jacks for $15.95 ea. ($16.95 MSRP ea.). This is my home system, in fact. That totals $517.70 or $647.77 MSRP.
Grand total to convert to a wireless DCC system with 23 locos = $958.70Grand total using MSRP = $1,180.44Savings = $221.74 (minus shipping)
Where is the hidden cost, Brakie? I have a 25' x 50' layout and a good number of locos on it. Even so, it's still not even close to $1500 as quoted by our orginal poster. He would have to convert another 20-25 locos to get in the $1500 range.
Paul,No clogs have slipped here..Heres a hard fact..IF I equipped all 50 of my DCC ready engines the cost would be $750.00..Now some hidden cost a new DCC user might be in a booster and if he/she wants extra throttles-let's say UT4s those are $79.95 each.How about stationary decoders for switches(if desired) $59.99 each.
See where the "hidden" costs lays to a new DCC user?
Of course we know there is basic dcc with the Bachmann DCC set at $133.00($74.99 discount) plus the cost of a few decoders and you are in basic DCC at very minimal cost.
Paul,All I am saying it can cost mega bucks if one wants a full blown DCC system and you should know that.I found that out with my adventure into the world of DCC.
BRAKIE wrote:Actually you can't butter the full MSRP away
Actually you can't butter the full MSRP away
After all anybody that can check DCC manufacturers web pages can add up the cost of conversion..Even using Tony's Train Exchange prices one can add up the real costs.
pastorbob wrote:I "joust" with Brakie on the Atlas forum many times, but he always has good reasons for what he thinks. And he does have facts.
Let's see then..
The Facts:
DH163AT$34.99 msrp
DH163D $29.99 msrp
DH123AT $24.99 msrp
DH163PS $32.99 msrp
DH123P $22.99 msrp
DH163P $32.99 mrsp
DH163IP $29.99 msrp
See:
http://www.digitrax.com/menu_mobiledecoders.php
for more prices..
DS64 Quad Stationary Decoder $59.99 msrp
DS54 Quad Stationary Decoder $79.99 msrp
See http://www.digitrax.com/menu_statdecoders.php
I haven't even started yet with throttles but which can cost between $79.95-229.99.
Those are the facts taken from the Digitrax web page.
Even the discount prices at Tonys Train Exchange averages $ 25.00 for decoders.
See for yourself.
http://www.tonystrains.com/index.html
Need I say more? I think the majority of the forum members can make their decision between DC/DCC by simply checking the prices..The full and discounted prices are there for all to see on Tony's web page.
David,Show those cheap decoders.Please and thank you.
Lentz,NCE and Digitrax is the 3 DCC systems of choice.
Mark,It is you that keep flogging a dead horse.
Now you said:Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story".
I presented the prices from two sources a manufacturers web page and Tony's discount prices so all can see where I got my facts yet you continue to flog away.
OK guys, it's getting a bit hot in here...
Anyway, I don't particularly agree or disagree with any of you to the point of never listening to you again, or chalking your comments up as flame-bait. A lot of you guys have made good points as to the pros and cons of looking at DCC vs DC. Here's where I have problems with your arguments (and sorry if I call you out on something and it wasn't actually you saying something).
Marknewton - your argument about cost per decoder vs locos, while justified does have holes in it. I am sometimes able to buy 2-3 locos in a month, and I could not afford to install a decoder in them, or an entire DCC system for that matter. Now, I am buying old Mantua/Tyco engines on the cheap from train shows, so that might have something to do with it...
Brakie - your "hidden costs" really aren't that hidden. I think I understand what you're trying to say, but it still doesn't make sense to me. I mean, the same thing can be said for DC remote turnout control. I can either use the solenoid included in the box (Assuming an Atlas snap-switch), or I can go spend $20+ on a Tortoise for each turnout (plus wiring and buttons and other bits to make it work right), and then there's always the manual method(s)... Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that there can be a "hidden" cost in almost anything that you buy - you just have to know the limitations of a specific item at the time of purchase.
Chuck - I think my main problem with your argument is (my personal) lack of knowledge of your current implementation of a control system, so I cannot really refute or validate what you are saying concretely. I am however missing your point of needing to learn the computer wizardry to get something to work correctly.
Now, I don't have DCC at the moment. Nor do I really have a need for it. An oval of track on a sheet of plywood works rather well with DC. Now, I *have* bought some of the dual-mode NCE decoders to play with, as the club I'm in is trying to decide the route with which we're going to wire our new layout. I feel that they're not too expensive, and I'll be ready to go as soon as I get a DCC system (if ever). I do think that DCC will be the way that we all run trains in the future.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
BRAKIE wrote:Mark,It is you that keep flogging a dead horse.Now you said:Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story". I presented the prices from two sources a manufacturers web page and Tony's discount prices so all can see where I got my facts yet you continue to flog away.
NeO6874 wrote:Marknewton - your argument about cost per decoder vs locos, while justified doeshave holes in it. I am sometimes able to buy 2-3 locos in a month, and I could not afford to installa decoder in them, or an entire DCC system for that matter. Now, I am buying old Mantua/Tycoengines on the cheap from train shows, so that might have something to do with it...
Marknewton - your argument about cost per decoder vs locos, while justified doeshave holes in it. I am sometimes able to buy 2-3 locos in a month, and I could not afford to installa decoder in them, or an entire DCC system for that matter. Now, I am buying old Mantua/Tycoengines on the cheap from train shows, so that might have something to do with it...
OK, now I think I see what you're getting at. I misunderstood the premise of your argument at first reading.
However I disagree that the Mantua locos I have are junk. Sure they're a little spartan in the detail department, but they're good runners and pullers. The Tyco or two that I have - now they are junk, but getting junk to work well enough on DC is a worthwile investment of time & money for me. My "spare time" is a lot cheaper than some of you other guys, so spending the $50 on an older 'junker' and then spending 5 or 6 hours tearing it apart and making it work well is still cheaper than spending $150+ on a "good" locomotive (sans decoder).
I would LOVE to be able to afford the newer locos that are on the market right now, but school expenses come first, so I'm stuck in the "el-cheapo" realm for the time being.
marknewton wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Mark,It is you that keep flogging a dead horse.Now you said:Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story". I presented the prices from two sources a manufacturers web page and Tony's discount prices so all can see where I got my facts yet you continue to flog away. Yes, because the way you've presented your case has been dishonest at best. You claim that the "true cost" of DCC is the MSRP - that's nonsense. The true cost is what you actually pay at the point of sale. And based on the discount prices you have yourself quoted, that will be less than the the MSRP. You describe this as "buttering away the true cost of DCC" only because it utterly refutes your original argument.Mark, happy DCC user who paid less than the MSRP.
BRAKIE wrote: Mark,It is you that keep flogging a dead horse.Now you said:Paul, I think Brakie goes by that old saying, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story". I presented the prices from two sources a manufacturers web page and Tony's discount prices so all can see where I got my facts yet you continue to flog away.
Mark,How can my case be dishonest when I showed full MSRP and Tony's discount prices?
So,its you that is still:
BRAKIE wrote:
Funny stuff!
I don't know if you guys saw this person's experience with DCC recently:
shawnee wrote: Ok, I guess I'm a bit excited and enthusiastic, but I just took the plunge...after doing the research and reading and listening to informed hobbyists, my new DCC system is on the way.Here's what I decided upon:NCE Power Cab System - the basic package, $149 at Tony's TrainsNCE Auto Switch - for the programming track/loco protection $24.95Three DCC Specialities PSX AR Auto Reversers (ok, I'm going a bit overboard with reverse sections, but it should add fun, and it's a big reason to me to go DCC) $48, x 3 = $144Total cost, not including shipping and taxes: $318I've also socked away $125 for decoders, which should get me around 5 decoders. I'm looking at some relatively basic decoders to start, silent running for now, just to get going. I've identified the NCE D14SRP or NCE D13SRP. I'm still a bit baffled by the decoder differences and compatibility with certain locos - it's the last thing I've researched. I just want some that plug straight away into my DCC-ready Kato SD 40, SD40-2. GP 35 and SD 45 locos, I think that's the D14SRPs from what I can tell thus far. Any advice here would be much appreciated....esp. if it can help me save a few bucks. I'm planning on placing the decoder orders in the few days.So total for the NCE starter system, the auto reversers plus 4-5 "starter" decoders is about $463. It was a bit to swallow in a lump , but in the scheme of things, really not that much when I figured on the costs and time I've already laid out...something i really don't want to think too much about. And it's about a lifetime of use/enjoyment type of investment, so I thought I'd make a solid investment. I obviously could have also saved $100 bucks by cutting down on the reversers, but I really wanted them, I think they'll add a lot and I figured the time to do them was now, at the early stage of my new layout. Guess I won't eat out in a restaurant for a while. Folks at Tony's Trains are excellent in service, gave some good advice, as did the folks here on the forum.It's pretty exciting move for me. On to the brave new world!!!!
Ok, I guess I'm a bit excited and enthusiastic, but I just took the plunge...after doing the research and reading and listening to informed hobbyists, my new DCC system is on the way.
Here's what I decided upon:
NCE Power Cab System - the basic package, $149 at Tony's Trains
NCE Auto Switch - for the programming track/loco protection $24.95
Three DCC Specialities PSX AR Auto Reversers (ok, I'm going a bit overboard with reverse sections, but it should add fun, and it's a big reason to me to go DCC) $48, x 3 = $144
Total cost, not including shipping and taxes: $318
I've also socked away $125 for decoders, which should get me around 5 decoders. I'm looking at some relatively basic decoders to start, silent running for now, just to get going. I've identified the NCE D14SRP or NCE D13SRP. I'm still a bit baffled by the decoder differences and compatibility with certain locos - it's the last thing I've researched. I just want some that plug straight away into my DCC-ready Kato SD 40, SD40-2. GP 35 and SD 45 locos, I think that's the D14SRPs from what I can tell thus far. Any advice here would be much appreciated....esp. if it can help me save a few bucks. I'm planning on placing the decoder orders in the few days.
So total for the NCE starter system, the auto reversers plus 4-5 "starter" decoders is about $463. It was a bit to swallow in a lump , but in the scheme of things, really not that much when I figured on the costs and time I've already laid out...something i really don't want to think too much about. And it's about a lifetime of use/enjoyment type of investment, so I thought I'd make a solid investment.
I obviously could have also saved $100 bucks by cutting down on the reversers, but I really wanted them, I think they'll add a lot and I figured the time to do them was now, at the early stage of my new layout. Guess I won't eat out in a restaurant for a while.
Folks at Tony's Trains are excellent in service, gave some good advice, as did the folks here on the forum.
It's pretty exciting move for me. On to the brave new world!!!!
Way under the OP's idea of $1500 DCC conversion costs. Goes to show that one can convert to DCC if need be and do it as it's appropriate for each case.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
BRAKIE wrote:Mark,How can my case be dishonest when I showed full MSRP and Tony's discount prices?
jasperofzeal wrote:Way under the OP's idea of $1500 DCC conversion costs...
Way under the OP's idea of $1500 DCC conversion costs...
Guys, take a breather... it's starting to get a litle heated in here again.
Seeing as shawnee bought the stuff from Tony's it would be safe to assume that it was less than MSRP. Regardless of that fact, the true cost to him was $463. No, he did buy some "extras" that are not necessarily needed by everyone (specifically the reversers and possibly that programming track switch thing, but I'm not 100% sure about that one).
From his experience, I would say that there are/were no "hidden costs" associated with going DCC. It's like any other project that people will undertake.
I think arguing "hidden costs" could be compared to buying a new car -- buy this brand new 2008 model for only $14,500 MSRP base, or $16,900 well equipped (excluding all that fine print stuff). Now, for DCC I would argue that the "base" cost is the command station itself and either a decoder or a DCC-equipped locomotive (excluding wiring and other stuff common to DC control). It's not much, but it's the least amount of stuff you need/want (much like the base model of a particular car). Now, you want auto-reversing or transponding or whatever else - you have to pay for it (much like getting the "well equpped" option for that car). We don't say that those options are hidden costs for a car so why are the options to make a "well equppied" DCC system "hidden"?
So, I'm planning a new layout. An around the room HO. I have a fleet of maybe 20 locomotives that would want decoders. A two block system allowing two trains the operate at the same time would be sufficient, and allow the use of ordinary DPDT toggle switches for block control, no hard-to-find and expensive rotary switches.
What I truly desire is walkaround throttles, DC or DCC isn't that important, Wireless would be nice but plug in will do. With a walkaround throttle I can locate all the turnout controls and block selector switches on the fascia, close to the turnout or block to be controlled. Without walkaround throttles I have to run all the turnout and block select wiring back to the fixed throttle location, a lot of wire. Plus it's more fun to run the trains walking along with them.
I can buy a Wireless DC walkaorund throttle for $182 at Walthers, or build the Rich Weygand designs, or my own design for no more than $180 or so. Another $75 for the DC supply.
Or, I can go DCC. From what I read here a basic power system might be $200, walkaround throttle $200 (each) and decoders $25 each. 20 locomotives at $25 each is $500 for decoders. Let's assume the wiring costs are about the same either way.
So, going DCC is $900, whereas a DC walk around throttle is around $250. Plus I don;t have to install 20 decoders. Most of the locomotives are oldies, not DCC ready, figure somewhere between an hour and an evening for decoder installation, per locomotive, i.e. somewhere between 20 hours and 20 evenings to do 'em all.
Do these figures sound about right? Does the brand of decoder matter much? All DCC decoders inter operate? A one amp decoder ought to be plenty for even elderly open frame motors? Does the traditional constant brightness headlamp circuit (two diode drops and a 1.4 volt bulb) work on DCC? Or would it need to be rewired to use 12 volt bulbs? Do even low end decoders have a output to drive headlamps? Or is that optional at extra cost? And decoders with sound are around $75?
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
dstarr wrote: So, I'm planning a new layout. An around the room HO. I have a fleet of maybe 20 locomotives that would want decoders. A two block system allowing two trains the operate at the same time would be sufficient, and allow the use of ordinary DPDT toggle switches for block control, no hard-to-find and expensive rotary switches. What I truly desire is walkaround throttles, DC or DCC isn't that important, Wireless would be nice but plug in will do. With a walkaround throttle I can locate all the turnout controls and block selector switches on the fascia, close to the turnout or block to be controlled. Without walkaround throttles I have to run all the turnout and block select wiring back to the fixed throttle location, a lot of wire. Plus it's more fun to run the trains walking along with them. I can buy a Wireless DC walkaorund throttle for $182 at Walthers, or build the Rich Weygand designs, or my own design for no more than $180 or so. Another $75 for the DC supply. Or, I can go DCC. From what I read here a basic power system might be $200, walkaround throttle $200 (each) and decoders $25 each. 20 locomotives at $25 each is $500 for decoders. Let's assume the wiring costs are about the same either way. So, going DCC is $900, whereas a DC walk around throttle is around $250. Plus I don;t have to install 20 decoders. Most of the locomotives are oldies, not DCC ready, figure somewhere between an hour and an evening for decoder installation, per locomotive, i.e. somewhere between 20 hours and 20 evenings to do 'em all. Do these figures sound about right? Does the brand of decoder matter much? All DCC decoders inter operate? A one amp decoder ought to be plenty for even elderly open frame motors? Does the traditional constant brightness headlamp circuit (two diode drops and a 1.4 volt bulb) work on DCC? Or would it need to be rewired to use 12 volt bulbs? Do even low end decoders have a output to drive headlamps? Or is that optional at extra cost? And decoders with sound are around $75?
Your DCC numbers are high. NCE PowerCab from Tony's is $150 (is a throttle, you can be running for that), additional throttle for $72. (these are tethered versions). There are decoders that will prbably do the trick for closer to $15 (actually NCE D13SR from Tony's at $137 for 10). So, for single throttle DCC, all 20 converted total is around $425, $500 for two cabs. The wiring will be cheaper, at $5 a switch the DPDTs add up. The time to do the conversions os still a problem, but then again, they don't all have to be done at once.
As far as decoders all brands should work. You don't need a constand brightness circuit since the headlight is either on or off, all decoders that I am aware of have at least two light functions, forward and reverse. I have to think more than I have time for about whether you could leave the constant brightness circuit in. I'm thinking you might be able to, but.....
I see sound decoders starting at $55, don't have enough experience to say whether they are any good. In N scale I may never use them.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Just one additional statement. I can't think of any real argument for building a new layout that is intended to operate more than one train using DC. The cost factor is nowhere near as much as most people think (I think I showed that above), and the increase in operational possibilities is huge.