OK, I shall make my confession first. Despite MR's monthly sermon on the Virtues of Digital Command Control, I still happlly operate my HO layout with traditional DC. I don't have a bunch of dedicated folks coming over one a week/month to operate my layout. It's just me, and I only have two hands. How many independently controlled trains can I manage?
I know of the fascinating features available with DCC, and I'm sure I would enjoy many of those features. But I lack the time or inclination to re-wire my track and meticuously install decoders, and I most definitely cannot justify shelling out $1,500 or more on it.
The principal advantage of DCC still seems to be the ability to independently control multiple locomotives anywhere on the layout, and one needs all of the exotic electronics, sending subcarrier signals through the rails, etc., to do this. But isn't this an awfully complicated way of accomplishing this? Garden railroaders for years have been operating their trains by radio control, and I see these litle battery-operated R/C race cars -- larger than an HO scale locomotive -- running around all of the time. Why doesn't some manufacturer simply idesign an R/C receiver to be placed in the locomotive; that's what the prototypes do.
I can't help but wonder if in 10-15 years we're all going to be looking at DCC the way we now look at 8-track audio tapes.
Comments?
Comments? Well...I'd have to say that I think this thread will only serve as fodder for a few to eventually turn this into a potential flame war. I hope I'm wrong...
Tom
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I see your point. Still, though, the trains are meant to run on rails, unlike R/C anything. Why not capitalize on the rails to provide the motor with controlling information? That's what DCC does. It allows me to operate as many locos as I can reasonably run independently, and I don't need batteries...just power to the rails and a coded signal imparted to the power wave.
I guess if we switched to normal AC current, then it would make sense. Not as things do now, though, and it works reasonably well.
Radio control may happen. In fact, it probably will. There are some things in the model railroad environment that will make it a bit challenging, especially in the smaller scales. At some point they will most likely get solved. For now, and at least the next few years (I can't define few) DCC is the best we've got. In other terms, I know that a computer that comes out in ten years is going to be superior to one I buy today, does that mean I should get a 10 year old one, instead? (DCC being now, radio control being ten (or more) years from now, and DC being 10 years old).
If I was starting from scratch, there are very few circumstances where I think DC would be first choice (I didn't say none, so don't attack too hard!) I would like to very gently say that changing a layout from DC to DCC might well not be a hard rewire job. Depending on how many locos and what type they are installing decoders does not have to be painful and meticulous (ok, maybe meticulous, but not painfully so). And a $1500 price tag is pretty darned high unless you have a fair number of locos or are talking about an RF system with multiple throttles (at which point you are not comparing apples to apples, most likely).
I guess what I am saying is pretty much two things. One, that your arguments against DCC are at least partially flawed, and two that just because we know there will be something different/better in the future does not necessarily mean the current offering is poor. Looking at it another way, maybe DC is the 8-track, DCC is the cassette, and RF (or whatever comes next) is the CD. And there will be something else after that!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Is this what you're talking about Jeff?
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/kalmbachcatalog/12242spreads.pdf
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
jasperofzeal wrote: Is this what you're talking about Jeff?http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/kalmbachcatalog/12242spreads.pdf
I'm not Jeff (well, I am, but not THAT Jeff), but the GE ASTRAC system is what he was talking about. There was a substantial writeup about it in 'The Complete Book of Model Railroading' from that era. I may (at least I used to) have it at home. If I remember right it was pretty much an AC carrier with five different AC frequecies used to control the locos. The receiver was a filter that only accepted its frequency. (This is memories from reading about it in the early '70s, well before the education to understand it. I'll have to look it up!)
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: jasperofzeal wrote: Is this what you're talking about Jeff?http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/kalmbachcatalog/12242spreads.pdfI'm not Jeff (well, I am, but not THAT Jeff), but the GE ASTRAC system is what he was talking about. There was a substantial writeup about it in 'The Complete Book of Model Railroading' from that era. I may (at least I used to) have it at home. If I remember right it was pretty much an AC carrier with five different AC frequecies used to control the locos. The receiver was a filter that only accepted its frequency. (This is memories from reading about it in the early '70s, well before the education to understand it. I'll have to look it up!)
Jeff (not Jeffrey),
The second page of the link I gave has more info on the ASTRAC thing. There is also an ad on it showing it's the GE ASTRAC. This isn't my cup of tea, but just thought it'd shed some light on the matter.
jeffrey-wimberly wrote: jasperofzeal wrote: Is this what you're talking about Jeff?http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/kalmbachcatalog/12242spreads.pdfYes, that's it. I had one, but it never performed up to the standards all the hype said it would.
Ok. Glad I got the right one up here.
The $1,500 figure is $1,000 too much, which just goes to show how much the OP really knows about DCC. Maybe his motto is, "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up."
We just ordered an NCE system consisting of the main command station with radio receiver and 5 Amp booster, two additional 5-Amp boosters, and four radio throttles for hundreds less than that for our club layout.
There's a short article in the Railway Post Office column of Model Railroader magazine's October 2007 issue on page 20 by an individual who claims to be running his HO layout with radio control, battery powered trains and getting up to 3 hours run time on a battery, so that technology is not far off.
bnycrail wrote:I still happlly operate my HO layout with traditional DC. I don't have a bunch of dedicated folks coming over one a week/month to operate my layout. It's just me, and I only have two hands. How many independently controlled trains can I manage?
But I lack the time or inclination to re-wire my track
meticuously install decoders,
and I most definitely cannot justify shelling out $1,500 or more on it.
The principal advantage of DCC still seems to be the ability to independently control multiple locomotives anywhere on the layout
and one needs all of the exotic electronics
sending subcarrier signals
Garden railroaders for years have been operating their trains by radio control,
I would rather see an RC system. I think we will see one in the next 10 years. PA2 wireless+ 8 amp booster-About $600. Decoders for 20 locos-1/2 sound, 1/2 non sound-$50 each average. There's $1500 real quick. And that doesn't include installation of the decoders for someone that can't do it themselves. (Dave's already told us how much that can run.)
We haven't even talked about all the odds and ends and things like turnout or signal decoders yet. Your not going to spend that on a 4x8 but for a descent size layout, I think that figures right on the money.
Cacole-PLEASE let us know where your getting a system like that so cheap. I know I don't like spending more than I have to.
bnycrail wrote:I know of the fascinating features available with DCC, and I'm sure I would enjoy many of those features. But I lack the time or inclination to re-wire my track and meticuously install decoders, and I most definitely cannot justify shelling out $1,500 or more on it.
Although it's a bit on the high side, there are a lot of model railroaders who have been around a while and have close to a hundred engines. So, at $15 per decoder, let's see, first we convert to octal, then do a fourier transform so we can add instead of multiply, take the complex conjugate, rotate registers right 4 bits, and then revert to dollars, we get...$1500. And that's just for the engines!
Then, suppose someone with a decent sized layout wants to convert all his (or her) turnouts to DCC control. What's that going to cost? Sure, most of us realize that you don't have to use DCC for your turnouts, but one of the common DCC misconceptions is that you do. It's another possible source of a high estimate for DCC conversion.
Big basement layout, with 3 friends who come over regularly for Ops sessions? Hmmm, including the owner, that's 4 throttles, possibly radio. Ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching.
OK, I've got a Lenz-100 system with an extra throttle, and about a dozen engines, some with sound. I've only put about 5 or 6 hundred into DCC myself, but yeah, you could easily spend $1500 to upgrade a large layout and a fleet of engines to DCC. And what if you paid someone else to install the decoders? If you had $1500, how many engines could you get decoder-equipped for that money? I'm sure someone here can do the math...
My point is that, like a lot of aspects of this hobby, there's a wide range of answers to the "How Much?" question.
And why do I like DCC? I've got a small layout, 5x12 feet. That's small enough that putting in blocks doesn't make much sense, other than kill switches on the roundhouse stalls for storing inactive engines. DCC lets me control my engines anywhere, not just within a block boundary.
Radio? Take a look at this video. (It's for a technology example, and the content isn't particularly important.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g82i9arQMyw
See all the horizontal white lines, and the occasional blanks of blue and white? Those are all there because the RF (radio frequency) signal between the camera and the receiver drops out or gets interrupted. Even at 1.8 GHz, this signal is very broken up, with just a few feet between the transmitter and the receiver. Sure, there are ways around this, but as long as we're tied to the track for power, why not use it to get a clean data path to the locomotive?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hey, if you don't want DCC, you don't need to get it. I run DCC most of the time, but I still have the majority of my locomotives DC. If I want to run one of them, I just unplug the Zephyr from the track ( a Cinch-Jones connector) and plug in the Tech II instead. You can get sound equipped engines that run on DC, and for many the manufacturer also has a control box that lets you control all the sounds on DC.
I think radio control is preferable for large scale mainly because the larger engines have room for the batteries and RC receivers, and because the track is harder to keep clean. The locomotives run better because they have their power (batteries) on board and don't need to get power from the rails. A DCC decoder functions the same as a radio reciever, it just gets its control signal from the track instead of the airwaves. If the locomotive is powered from the rails, it makes sense that it should get its control signals that way also.
If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is really thinking.
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loathar wrote: I would rather see an RC system. I think we will see one in the next 10 years. PA2 wireless+ 8 amp booster-About $600. Decoders for 20 locos-1/2 sound, 1/2 non sound-$50 each average. There's $1500 real quick. And that doesn't include installation of the decoders for someone that can't do it themselves. (Dave's already told us how much that can run.)
The thing is, I think we get into comparing apples and oranges. A single operator running by himself on DC currently doesn't need wireless and 8 amps. A Zephyr is more comparable to what he has. And 20 locos is a lot for that setup (though certainly possible). But he doesn't have sound now, so adding that cost isn't fair either. A fair comparison is more like a $20 decoder. Adding wireless (unless he has a wireless DC setup) and sound ruins the comparison (though it makes a nicer system ) Many (most, some?) don't want or use turnout decoders or signalling, unless it is already there it isn't fair to add it. I'm not saying that DCC can't get expensive, just that the cost to convert a single operator DC layout to DCC is likely well under $1500.
MisterBeasley wrote: And why do I like DCC? I've got a small layout, 5x12 feet. That's small enough that putting in blocks doesn't make much sense, other than kill switches on the roundhouse stalls for storing inactive engines. DCC lets me control my engines anywhere, not just within a block boundary.
You've hit a point I've been pushing for a while. DCC is probably more advantageous on a small layout than a larger one, assuming there is more than one locomotive on the layout.
As far as the cost issue, as I said in my previous post, the layout the original poster referenced is a one operator layout, so the cost should be based on that, not what one COULD spend!
You can get a Bachmann DCC power pack for $85 (or less).
You can buy a DCC locomotive for about $100.
Putting a decoder in your engines is the hard, expensive part, but you can run most DC locomotives on channel 10 on the Bachmann, and run your DCC locomotive on one of the other channels.
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: loathar wrote: I would rather see an RC system. I think we will see one in the next 10 years. PA2 wireless+ 8 amp booster-About $600. Decoders for 20 locos-1/2 sound, 1/2 non sound-$50 each average. There's $1500 real quick. And that doesn't include installation of the decoders for someone that can't do it themselves. (Dave's already told us how much that can run.)The thing is, I think we get into comparing apples and oranges. A single operator running by himself on DC currently doesn't need wireless and 8 amps. A Zephyr is more comparable to what he has. And 20 locos is a lot for that setup (though certainly possible). But he doesn't have sound now, so adding that cost isn't fair either. A fair comparison is more like a $20 decoder. Adding wireless (unless he has a wireless DC setup) and sound ruins the comparison (though it makes a nicer system ) Many (most, some?) don't want or use turnout decoders or signalling, unless it is already there it isn't fair to add it. I'm not saying that DCC can't get expensive, just that the cost to convert a single operator DC layout to DCC is likely well under $1500.
I agree with you. BUT, you know as well as I do...Trip over that tether a few times and you'll want a wireless. Hear that great sound coming out of some of the high end locos and you'll want them. Then when your running all those high end sound locos, you'll need more amps. And so on, and so forth...Might as well just start singing your pay checks over to Dave at the hobby shop now and get it over with.(I'm sure he won't mind!)
As another analog DC holdout, I don't find the $1,500 estimate unreasonable. How many locos will have to be converted? How many other grand whoop-te-do functions (like turnout control) will be included. What quality are we talking about, beginner el cheapo 4-function or all the bells and whistles (plus exhaust chuff, turbogenerator whine,...) How big is the layout, how many power zones with a booster for each, how much....
If I were to clamber aboard the DCC bandwagon, going whole hog would easily cost me $1500, if I were to include the drive upgrades necessary to make DCC with sound worthwhile in '60s brass steam (with open frame motors and noisy gears.)
There actually was at least one fully radio controlled HO model loco, an F-7 A-B set, with controllable speed, headlight and horn. It was powered by on-board batteries (and was once demonstrated to Linn Westcott on a restaurant tablecloth, with not a rail in sight.)
I could see such a unit operating on a layout, with an on-board battery charger that would pick up power on stretches of turnout-free track. There would be no need to power the rails of the maze of puzzle switches in your model of the St. Louis Union Terminal - the on-board battery would handle things like that (and then recharge while sitting at the platform.)
Please don't think that I'm running down DCC. Far from it. I am fully aware of its advantages for people who want realistic operation from the one train they are running. I am equally aware of the tradeoffs I would have to make to switch - and I choose not to.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL)
Oh, good, we haven't had a DCC knock-down-and-drag-out rumble in weeks!
bnycrail wrote:
In case you're serious, the answer to your question is that it depends on how your layout is designed. If it's a "timesaver" then, probably just one train. If it's around the room double-track with a couple yards, then perhaps three or more. But since you've told us nothing about it, it cannot be accurately answered.
In case you're not serious, nice insult with that whole, "...sermon on the Virtues of DCC..." line. Do you really think that DCC is a religion being preached by Kalmbach? Or are you just twisting our tails to see what kind of reaction you can get? (IOW, trolling).
Venturing into the "you're actually serious" territory again, you do realize that you don't have to re-wire any layout for DCC? My old club's oldest layout room was built in 1953 with 4 mainline cabs worth of DC goodness, and when we were deciding on a DCC system in 1998, one of our members hooked an NCE system into one of our 50-toggle DC cabs, turned on all the blocks, and ran the whole layout room with DCC. No re-wiring required. If it doesn't short with DC, it'll work with DCC.
As for installing decoders, since we don't know what kind of locos you own, or how long you've been in the hobby, we have no way to know if it would be "meticulous" work or not. Most modern models, dating back to the late-1990's, have DCC plugs in them (if they don't come already equipped with decoders). It honestly takes more time to take the shell off and put it back on with most of these than it does to actually install the decoder. And those that don't have plugs usually have specialty decoders made to fit them. BTW, most model railroading skills could be defined as "meticulous"...track laying, wiring, painting & decaling, scenery, etc.
For your $1500 quote...how do we know if this is accurate? How many locos do you own? Of what vintage? In what scale? Right now, it looks like you just picked that number out of the aurora borealis...
Waitaminute... You think that DCC decoders are "exotic electronics" yet you want R/C control? For pete's sake, what do you think they are using? Stone knives and bear skins? Toothpicks and rubberbands? R/C is every bit as complicated as any DCC system, and worse, it'd have to be vetted by the FCC (a long, expensive trip through the red tape of the US Gov't). Heck, it's so bad that Lenz won't even attempt to make a real radio throttle, they are using wireless phones for throttles even now.
As others have explained, there is no "subcarrier signal"...with DCC, the power is the signal which is what made it superior to the old analog control systems of the 1980's.
Why not wireless? Batteries, man, batteries. They are the bane of any kind of wireless system. Say you get a wireless receiver into a GP9. Say also that you get a battery that's capable of putting out 12VDC at 370+ milliamps (at least 250 milliamps for motor, 120 milliamps for lights, plus more for sound if any) for 3 hours and that actually fits into a GP9. Now, run it for 3 hours and drain the battery. How do you now charge it? How long will it take? How many times can you charge it before replacing it? Not to mention, how do you turn it on and off? And before you say "put it underneath", how would that work with a Big Boy? How many people are going to enjoy flipping their giant expensive steam locos on their backs to get at some on/off toggle?
BTW, there is more than just multiple loco control in DCC's list of advantages: You can get a heckuva better speed control with DCC/BEMF, you can speed match locos so that old Athearns will run with the newest BLI, you don't have to park your locos in only certain places due to block cuts, you can add or remove helpers on the fly, you can vastly simplify layout wiring, you can simulate heavy or light loads by customizing a loco's momentum on the fly, you can easily connect your computer to your layout for signalling, computer control and programming, and so forth and so on. There literally have been books written on all you can do with DCC...it's a pretty long list.
Right, sure. You do realize that DCC is an NMRA Standard, and how often do they go out of style? Fact is, DCC was invented by Bernard Lenz 20 years ago. I don't think 8-tracks lasted that long as a viable medium.
Funny thing is, DCC critics were crowing back a few years ago that DCC would be replaced in 5 years by something new, something better... Now that it hasn't happened, that deadline seems to have been pushed back to 10-15 years. By 2010, any bets that the "new, better" control system that will replace DCC will be 20 years away? Perhaps 25 years (don't want to rush things). Meanwhile, DCC will still be in use, will still be ever-improving, and will still be enjoyed by thousands of model railroaders.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Why does everyone always assume they have to convert their whole fleet of locomotives instantly? I've been running DCC since before most people knew how to spell it and I still don't have the "whole fleet" converted probably never will. That doesn't stop me from running them. Like jfallon says, just unplug the DCC unit, plug in the good old MRC Ampak II and go. OR set the throttle to channel zero. It isn't black and white - it is gray.
This could be one reason I'm not as smitten with DCC and sound as most people are. It is old hat almost hum-drum technology.
Yeah, but the all the guys who have NEVER CONVERTED OR RUN DCC ON A REAL SYSTEM think that you should "convert your whole fleet" and go "all or nothing", putting your non-converted locos "on the shelf".
Heck, my DC locos aren't on the shelf, they are parked on an isolated siding and brought out and run around the track daily.
tomikawaTT wrote: As another analog DC holdout, I don't find the $1,500 estimate unreasonable. How many locos will have to be converted? How many other grand whoop-te-do functions (like turnout control) will be included. What quality are we talking about, beginner el cheapo 4-function or all the bells and whistles (plus exhaust chuff, turbogenerator whine,...) How big is the layout, how many power zones with a booster for each, how much....If I were to clamber aboard the DCC bandwagon, going whole hog would easily cost me $1500, if I were to include the drive upgrades necessary to make DCC with sound worthwhile in '60s brass steam (with open frame motors and noisy gears.)All of this is true. My point is that it isn't fair to talk about the cost to go 'whole hog', only the cost to get the functionality the original poster has now. The rest is 'bells and whistles' so to speak. It is entirely possible, even likely, that one would go further, but that the additional extra cost should not be used as an argument against DCC.Please don't think that I'm running down DCC. Far from it. I am fully aware of its advantages for people who want realistic operation from the one train they are running. I am equally aware of the tradeoffs I would have to make to switch - and I choose not to.And there is clearly nothing wrong with that. Just for curiosity's sake (and not to start a flame war, as I think that is not either of our styles) what would you do if you were starting now?
All of this is true. My point is that it isn't fair to talk about the cost to go 'whole hog', only the cost to get the functionality the original poster has now. The rest is 'bells and whistles' so to speak. It is entirely possible, even likely, that one would go further, but that the additional extra cost should not be used as an argument against DCC.
And there is clearly nothing wrong with that. Just for curiosity's sake (and not to start a flame war, as I think that is not either of our styles) what would you do if you were starting now?
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: tomikawaTT wrote: As another analog DC holdout, I don't find the $1,500 estimate unreasonable. How many locos will have to be converted? How many other grand whoop-te-do functions (like turnout control) will be included. What quality are we talking about, beginner el cheapo 4-function or all the bells and whistles (plus exhaust chuff, turbogenerator whine,...) How big is the layout, how many power zones with a booster for each, how much....If I were to clamber aboard the DCC bandwagon, going whole hog would easily cost me $1500, if I were to include the drive upgrades necessary to make DCC with sound worthwhile in '60s brass steam (with open frame motors and noisy gears.)All of this is true. My point is that it isn't fair to talk about the cost to go 'whole hog', only the cost to get the functionality the original poster has now. The rest is 'bells and whistles' so to speak. It is entirely possible, even likely, that one would go further, but that the additional extra cost should not be used as an argument against DCC.Please don't think that I'm running down DCC. Far from it. I am fully aware of its advantages for people who want realistic operation from the one train they are running. I am equally aware of the tradeoffs I would have to make to switch - and I choose not to.And there is clearly nothing wrong with that. Just for curiosity's sake (and not to start a flame war, as I think that is not either of our styles) what would you do if you were starting now?
If I were to change scales (to On30) and limit myself to my two favorite 762mm prototypes (Kiso Forestry Railway and Kurobe Railway) I would go DCC in a heartbeat. With those prototypes, I would WANT to follow a single train through the canyons - and I wouldn't have to concern myself with four, six or a dozen other trains needing attention because there wouldn't BE four, six or a dozen other trains needing attention.
Of course, I would also have about 1/10th of my present powered roster.
If, OTOH, I was going to build the same railroad I'm now building, I'd probably end up with a lot of old locos (not manufactured recently) bought used. Also, I use a lot of automatic features (based on brute force, ignorance and cheap diodes) that can only be reproduced in DCC by programming a computer with a lot of layout-specific code - something a little outside of my area of expertise. The cheap and easy choice would still be analog DC, modified MZL system.
The only difference is that I'd have a lot more money invested in it. Some of my bought-in-Japan brass locos cost less than the decoders needed to convert them - about 5% of the present-day cost of equivalent units.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 1960's control technology)