ndbprr wrote:When I was very young right after WW2 I can remember drooling on a store window every chance I got to look at the Mantua brass kit engines and believe me they were kits! I don't think the average guy could have assembled one of those things they were so crude but it was the state of the art. At the most they were six wheeled engines and the ones I remember were all little four wheel engines like a saddle tank and a mother hubbard. As I recall the first 8 wheel drive engine introduced was the American Flyer one followed by Varney and Tyco but that was the latter half of the 50's.
In fact, Mantua offered a brass Reading I-10sa 2-8-0 consolidation prior to WWII (Varney, too), along with a brass Atlantic, a Pacific, the 0-4-0 "Goat" camelback and one or two other smaller brass engines. Post-war, all these engines returned to production save for the consolidation. A couple of the smaller engines continued to be made in extremely limited runs up until as late as 1959, although Mantua's regular locomotive line had basically long since gone over to employing zamac.
Further, I can find absolutely no reference to any specifically Missouri Pacfic 4-8-2 ever being marketed during the 1960's-1980's other than in brass. Even these weren't available until the 1980's.
CNJ831
loathar wrote:http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Brass-HO-Scale-Train-by-Tyco_W0QQitemZ190151669167QQihZ009QQcategoryZ78178QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemIs this true? I'm not aware of Tyco making any brass locos. Or is this just another case of a seller that's going to plead ignorance after the buyer complains?
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
loathar wrote:Someone on the Tyco forum said they remember these being kitbash projects. He said they were typically a Mantua Mikado frame and drivers with a Cary boiler kit and Bowser trucks and brass detail parts. (mystery solved??)
I just checked out her other offerings. Actually, some of the older Aurora models are becoming rather rare - especially in unbuilt condition. An original unbuilt Seaview is a fairly good find if you are into that kind of thing (but it definitely is NOT 1:32 scale! LOL) Also, I think the Phantom might be rather rare too as it is listed as being an F-110 (rather than F-4)on the instructions which might date it as being prior to the standardization of aircraft designators in the early 60s (I think). Same goes for the F94C Starfire kit.
George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
R. T. POTEET posts:
In 1949 Mantua's advertising took up the whole back page of Model Railroader; I don't have any 1950, '51, or '52 issues in my collection but by 1953 their advertisements were confined to an interior page and only one column wide. Nowhere in any of their advertising did I find reference to an all-brass model of anything; when I joined the hobby in 1962 a Varney Northern was being offered and I seem to remember that this was all-brass; I suspect that the seller has misidentified this item and, instead of a Tyco, a Varney is what is being offered for bid.
I suggest that you read my article documenting the history of Mantua's Master Model Builder's locomotive series (their brass line of engines) in the July 1990 issue of RMC if you think that Mantua brass engines went out of production in 1953 or earlier. In fact, an issue of MR from early 1960 includes the final Mantua ad for a very limited run of the Goat and Belle of the Eighties.
Further, I would question Varney's Northern being all-brass as late as 1962. My references indicate that it was of bronze to begin with and it's listed as being produced only between 1949 and 1951. You saw very old stock perhaps?
If anything, the model in question here looks to me most like an old Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy boiler, which was also of cast bronze but which supposely went out of production around '45.
river_eagle wrote:I'm just wondering, how many, if any, of you bothered to ask the seller for more information?,
marknewton wrote:Funny how a model described as "mint" appears to have neither rods nor trailing truck. I reckon she's trying it on.
I suppose this is where the phrase "some assembly is required" comes in.
Whether the parts are actually included or not is another matter.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
Here is what I just received fron the seller.
Quote
Response from tamarav444 ------------------------------------------------------- Yes, it seems the instruction sheet is made by tyco, but the engine is definitely brass. Sorry for the inconvience.
End of quote
I did not think of asking about the side rods.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
My take on all this is that a relative has died and left a bunch of trains. Survivors know nothing at all about trains and are attempting to sell them on e-Bay without a clue of what something is.
It might be marked "Tyco" on the bottom of the engine or tender, and the tender wheels may be brass, but I doubt very much if the rest of it is anything other than Zamac, and possibly some plastic.
I have a couple of Tyco engines from this same time frame that were cast metal kits. One is an 0-4-0 with slope back tender and the other is an 0-6-0, also with a slope back tender. I think Tyco called them the "Little Joe" and "Big Six."
Tender wheels are the only brass used in both of these locomotives.
The reply I got about the shipping charge was this:
Yes we know, we must fix the shipping cost, and we do not have any better pics, sorry for the inconvience, we assure you that the train is in great condition.
Its not unusual for boxes and model to be entirely different. A modelr could have replaced the tender trucks and not painted them (yet)
Theres a model up on ebay now I will try to buy, a Pacific Electric interurban car...woops, its really a south shore car...I spotted the error and let the seller know, no probs we know now.
The engine is looking to me to be brass all ways around and may be a tru-blu brass engine in a wrong box.
I don't recall Tyco making a engine that look like that..
My thoughts is it*could* be a brass engine in a Tyco box.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNJ831 wrote: R. T. POTEET posts:In 1949 Mantua's advertising took up the whole back page of Model Railroader; I don't have any 1950, '51, or '52 issues in my collection but by 1953 their advertisements were confined to an interior page and only one column wide. Nowhere in any of their advertising did I find reference to an all-brass model of anything; when I joined the hobby in 1962 a Varney Northern was being offered and I seem to remember that this was all-brass; I suspect that the seller has misidentified this item and, instead of a Tyco, a Varney is what is being offered for bid.I suggest that you read my article documenting the history of Mantua's Master Model Builder's locomotive series (their brass line of engines) in the July 1990 issue of RMC if you think that Mantua brass engines went out of production in 1953 or earlier. In fact, an issue of MR from early 1960 includes the final Mantua ad for a very limited run of the Goat and Belle of the Eighties.Further, I would question Varney's Northern being all-brass as late as 1962. My references indicate that it was of bronze to begin with and it's listed as being produced only between 1949 and 1951. You saw very old stock perhaps?If anything, the model in question here looks to me most like an old Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy boiler, which was also of cast bronze but which supposely went out of production around '45.CNJ831
. . . . . . . . . . in 1962 a Varney Northern was being offered and I seem to remember it was all-brass . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45.
R. T. POTEET wrote: Your reference to the Knapp 4-8-2 going. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45.raises an interesting question: how, I ask, was Knapp able to make a cast bronze[???] locomotive; I have been under the impression that bronze was a copper alloy and the War Production Board had severe restrictions of copper usage in all but essential manufacturing during the war years. As a history major revelations such as your sure make me feel stupid.
Your reference to the Knapp 4-8-2 going
No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research.
The Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy was introduced in 1938 and was, to my knowledge, never a big seller. In all probability the necessary bronze casting for the kits was all done prior to U.S.involvement in the war. Quite possibly there was only single run. It was not unusual to find certain loco kits containing "essential" war materials available well into the conflict, since they had been manufactured and stocked prior to January 1942. The hobby was quite small back then (less than 10k individuals) and there were no great runs of new products like you see today. A single relatively small run of an expensive item could remain available on the market for years. Typically, when the stock finally did run out, the item was regarded as OOP.
Incidentally, the Knapp 4-8-2's dies went to Bowser in 1949, who reworked them and the loco was once again done as bronze castings up until about 1952. Thereafter, the castings were of zamac.
CNJ831 wrote:No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research.
Yikes, the depth of knowledge you guys have on this stuff is purely amazing... eek... back to my medical books where I feel I at least know SOMETHING!!!
Brian
CNJ831 wrote: No reason to feel foolish, it just happens that I have a deep interest in the hobby's history and have done a lot of associated research.The Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy was introduced in 1938 and was, to my knowledge, never a big seller. In all probability the necessary bronze casting for the kits was all done prior to U.S.involvement in the war. Quite possibly there was only single run. It was not unusual to find certain loco kits containing "essential" war materials available well into the conflict, since they had been manufactured and stocked prior to January 1942. The hobby was quite small back then (less than 10k individuals) and there were no great runs of new products like you see today. A single relatively small run of an expensive item could remain available on the market for years. Typically, when the stock finally did run out, the item was regarded as OOP.CNJ831
The Knapp 4-8-2 Heavy was introduced in 1938 and was, to my knowledge, never a big seller. In all probability the necessary bronze casting for the kits was all done prior to U.S.involvement in the war. Quite possibly there was only single run. It was not unusual to find certain loco kits containing "essential" war materials available well into the conflict, since they had been manufactured and stocked prior to January 1942. The hobby was quite small back then (less than 10k individuals) and there were no great runs of new products like you see today. A single relatively small run of an expensive item could remain available on the market for years. Typically, when the stock finally did run out, the item was regarded as OOP.CNJ831
. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45
8500HPGASTURBINE wrote:My thought is who cares. Maybe it's some poor person who really doesn't know what it is. Or maybe some who knows but wants to bluff a little. If some idiot wants it for a big price then more power to the seller. I find it interesting that we can discuss it here. But when it comes to emailing them then posting it here for a small laugh then it's wrong. Let them sell what they want. If I see something wrong in a listing I learned to just let it be. Just my opinion. Agree or disagree.
I disagree. I e-mailed the seller and got the same "Thank You" response that she gave to others. Forgeting for the moment that she's advertsing somrthing which is inaccurately described at best, e-bay has a policy about excessive shipping charges. She is charging the same $40 shipping on all the stuff she has up for auction including plastic model airplanes which probably weight less than a pound. I reported her to e-bay for the excessive shipping charge. I won't even get into whether it's really a brass engine. If she had 30 or 40 sales, I might be inclined to give her a break but she's sold 177 things on e-bay. She's one of those sellers that really doesn't care what kind of profit she makes of an item, she rakes it in on shipping. Even if the engine was packed in a special box and sent insured, she's still making at least a $20 profit on shipping. E-bay doesn't approve and neither do I.
R. T. POTEET wrote:...you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45or if it was January, 1942 . . . . . . . . . . or August of '61 . . . . . . . . . . or December of '06 . . . . . . . . . . or if it was ever in production in the first place. If you ever figure out what in the aitch you are talking about be sure to let me know.
...you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went
Well...clearly you have not the slightest clue on the subject, nor obviously any background whatever in the hobby's history, a sad shortcoming all too common of this site's posts/posters. Most model railroad item production/availability dates are well documented and are not estimates nor W.A. guesses. And I certainly know the Knapp bronze 4-8-2 was produced, exactly what it looked like and its resemblance to the "Tycho" model in question...I have a Knapp example!
CNJ831 wrote: R. T. POTEET wrote:...you don't have the feebleist flippin' idea whether this Knapp company's Mountain went. . . . . . . . . . out of production around '45or if it was January, 1942 . . . . . . . . . . or August of '61 . . . . . . . . . . or December of '06 . . . . . . . . . . or if it was ever in production in the first place. If you ever figure out what in the aitch you are talking about be sure to let me know. Well...clearly you have not the slightest clue on the subject, nor obviously any background whatever in the hobby's history, a sad shortcoming all too common of this site's posts/posters. Most model railroad item production/availability dates are well documented and are not estimates nor W.A. guesses. And I certainly know the Knapp bronze 4-8-2 was produced, exactly what it looked like and its resemblance to the "Tycho" model in question...I have a Knapp example! CNJ831
I don't see the $40 shipping charge. When I pulled up the listing the shipping cost is $69+.
Are you guys sure this isn't 1 to 1 scale
from the info here I will skip buying it, good luck to the bidders, if they have probs they should look to bowser as their mountain looks very close to this. Bowser has taken up other product makers like Varney and Arbour, they havent done anythiong about the arbour stuff yet.
Tilden wrote: I don't see the $40 shipping charge. When I pulled up the listing the shipping cost is $69+.Are you guys sure this isn't 1 to 1 scale
I e-mailed the seller about the shipping, and they said it was a mistake. According to the listing it was supposed to have been about $65 for shipping to my address, but they said it should actually be $14.
No matter how bizarre this is, nor how arcane it gets... It will not beat the lady I just bought a lionel engine from... I advised her that the engine and tender go together- she insisted that they were separate cars from a set, I sent her evidence from Lionel stating that this engine and that tender were never separate... She declined the idea. I offered to buy them now if she would combine shipping... She also declined- this was a mistake the combined buy it now prices and shipping would have gotten her just over 100 bucks... I bid and waited... and I won both... I sent her her 62.50 she refunded the 9.25 and combined the shipping and I wound up with a matched set 4-8-4 northern streamline steamer and tender models 1688 and 1689W for 45 and shipping... WHY DON'T THEY LISTEN WHEN WE TRY TO HELP THEM???