KATO HO more active, please!!!

[tomikawaTT]

D50s, eh Chuck? I didn't realise there were ever HOj D50s on the market. Who made them?

Cheers,

Mark.

Hi, Mark,

My D50s were manufactured by Miyazawa, purchased at a LHS in Tokyo in 1970.  They combine a brass superstructure with a cast frame, as does my lone Adachi D51 from the same time period.

D50380 is the dog of the fleet, because the tender truck side frames were misdrilled and have never been corrected.  I use it as a mobile track tester.  If that touchy tender can run on newly laid track, nothing else will have problems.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[marknewton]

D50s, eh Chuck? I didn't realise there were ever HOj D50s on the market. Who made them?

Cheers,

Mark.

[shawnee]

Well, if that is true, this is very suprising and interesting to me.  I had no idea that MR was pursued with such a passion in Japan.  On a per capita basis, it's really astounding information. It would indeed explain a lot about Kato's motivations.

Well, part of that comes down to sheer numbers. Based on the 2005 Japan Population Census, the total population as of October 1, 2005 was 127.76 million, so there's a good start on having a large number of modellers and/or railfans.

But I reckon the major reason for there being so many people buying models in Japan is that for a large part of the population, trains and railways are an integral part of their normal daily lives. The combined Tokyo rail network carries passengers in numbers that other railways could only dream of.

But it's not just Tokyo that has an abundance of railways, subways, metros, tramways and monorails to travel on. Most major towns and cities have some form of commuter rail service, or trams or metros. Even many small rural towns and villages have some rail service, even if it is only a third-sector railway carting schoolkids around in an ageing diesel railcar or museum-piece interurban. And linking all of Japan is the famous Shinkansen network.

So unlike the US, awareness and knowledge of railways is widespread, and the railways themselves are generally well-regarded by the people. In addition to the rail system, JR operates buses & ferries, as do the private railways. Many of the private railways are diversified businesses with interests in shopping malls, travel agencies, theme parks, and even baseball teams. So the railway plays a much more visible role in Japanese society than it doe sin many other countries.

There is a lot of railway-related material in the mainstream media, and some of Japan's best-known literature and anime have railway themes. When steam was being phased out in the mid-1970s, it was common to see giant posters in the street lamenting the passing of the "SL", and even get shopping bags with images of famous locos printed on them. I still have my C62 "Tsubame" carry bags...

And that's the other big difference to the US. Generally speaking, the stigma attached to being a railfan or a modeller in the west is not evident in Japan.

Given that for many Japanese space in the home is at a premium, large home layouts such as are common in the US are not often seen. The tendency instead is to own large numbers of specific trains, as well as individual locos and stock, and to run them either on temporary track on the floor at home, or at club meetings, again using temporary track. Mini-layouts and dioramas are also popular, as these require little space.

There is a bewildering number and variety of Japanese trains that have been modelled, and the short production runs favoured by the main manufacturers mean that any new models sell out very quickly.

So, from all this you can see that the conditions in Japan are ideal to encourage a large domestic market for model railway products.

Cheers,

Mark.

That pretty much explains everything to me about Kato and Unitrack.   That's why they produce such high quality temporary track and focus predominantly on N.  They have a huge domestic primary market.  I get it now.  For one, I'll not wonder about Kato and HO anymore. 

 

[tomikawaTT]

Mark,

!!!

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with several D50's and only 1 D51 nowhere near as nice as the Kato version)

[marknewton]

Just to stir the pot a bit, if Kato did release a US-prototype steam loco in HO, this is the standard of model you could expect to see...

http://www.katomodels.com/product/nmi/ho_d51.shtml

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Well, if that is true, this is very suprising and interesting to me.  I had no idea that MR was pursued with such a passion in Japan.  On a per capita basis, it's really astounding information. It would indeed explain a lot about Kato's motivations.

Well, part of that comes down to sheer numbers. Based on the 2005 Japan Population Census, the total population as of October 1, 2005 was 127.76 million, so there's a good start on having a large number of modellers and/or railfans.

But I reckon the major reason for there being so many people buying models in Japan is that for a large part of the population, trains and railways are an integral part of their normal daily lives. The combined Tokyo rail network carries passengers in numbers that other railways could only dream of.

But it's not just Tokyo that has an abundance of railways, subways, metros, tramways and monorails to travel on. Most major towns and cities have some form of commuter rail service, or trams or metros. Even many small rural towns and villages have some rail service, even if it is only a third-sector railway carting schoolkids around in an ageing diesel railcar or museum-piece interurban. And linking all of Japan is the famous Shinkansen network.

So unlike the US, awareness and knowledge of railways is widespread, and the railways themselves are generally well-regarded by the people. In addition to the rail system, JR operates buses & ferries, as do the private railways. Many of the private railways are diversified businesses with interests in shopping malls, travel agencies, theme parks, and even baseball teams. So the railway plays a much more visible role in Japanese society than it doe sin many other countries.

There is a lot of railway-related material in the mainstream media, and some of Japan's best-known literature and anime have railway themes. When steam was being phased out in the mid-1970s, it was common to see giant posters in the street lamenting the passing of the "SL", and even get shopping bags with images of famous locos printed on them. I still have my C62 "Tsubame" carry bags...

And that's the other big difference to the US. Generally speaking, the stigma attached to being a railfan or a modeller in the west is not evident in Japan.

Given that for many Japanese space in the home is at a premium, large home layouts such as are common in the US are not often seen. The tendency instead is to own large numbers of specific trains, as well as individual locos and stock, and to run them either on temporary track on the floor at home, or at club meetings, again using temporary track. Mini-layouts and dioramas are also popular, as these require little space.

There is a bewildering number and variety of Japanese trains that have been modelled, and the short production runs favoured by the main manufacturers mean that any new models sell out very quickly.

So, from all this you can see that the conditions in Japan are ideal to encourage a large domestic market for model railway products.

Cheers,

Mark.

[shawnee]

I can't answer that accurately without referring to a magazine article that I can't lay my hands on at the moment. But from what I recall the numbers - based on sales figures for the major manufacturers, surveys and magazine subscriptions - were close to the million mark. I don't think that even the most optimistic model railroad booster would suggest that there's that many active modellers in the US.

Cheers,

Mark.

 

Well, if that is true, this is very suprising and interesting to me.  I had no idea that MR was pursued with such a passion in Japan.  On a per capita basis, it's really astounding information. It would indeed explain a lot about Kato's motivations.

Though in any scenario, that US office of theirs could do a lot better with communications. 

[Anonymous]

Marknetwon, I knew nothing about your Garrets until one showed up in a train sim game a while ago.

There is alot of train stuff in the world I know nothing about. As far as Im concerned, Kato is doing well with the US Track in HO scale.

[marknewton]

Mark,The big picture is those "clubbies" are counted among the buying hobbyist to include Kato products..Some are loyal Kato customers.

I've no doubt they are loyal, but they are a small minority nonetheless. How much influence do you reckon they should have with a foreign company?

BTW..I suspect very few has heard of a Tomix ED75-50 since very few U.S. modelers buys Japanese railroad models

Very few, you reckon? It's all relative. Amongst the hundreds of thousands of Japanese modellers who know what an ED75 is,



there's probably few who know or care what a C&O GP35 is, either. What's your point?

Cheers,

Mark.

[BRAKIE]

Mark,The big picture is those "clubbies" are counted among the buying hobbyist to include Kato products..Some are loyal Kato customers..So,I think it is important it should be noted that this type of Kato discussion goes far beyond modelrailroader.com.

Frankly I don't have a problem with Kato's business decisions..Athearn and Atlas been getting my locomotive dollars for quite some time since I dropped P2K.I do own 4 Kato GP35s which is custom painted for C&O.

BTW..I suspect very few has heard of a Tomix ED75-50 since very few U.S. modelers buys Japanese railroad models...I had to look it up.

[Lillen]

Let us not forget that there are large sums at play here. Breaking in to a market and taking a part of the cake is expensive and for a company it can end up in a disaster. The U.S market is huge which is both a good and a bad thing. It's great if you make it but to make it will cost a lot of money. Also this hobby is now at a point where people seems to demand more and more exact replicas of specific prototypes. A 2-10-4 will not cut it unless you focus on the cheapest market segment and sell toys. Otherwise you will here people complaining about this and that being wrong and that they will only buy it if comes with that XXXX sound system because the one they put in is crap and that they will not touch it until it is released with the modifications that only existed between May and December 1966.

 

With that in mind I can understand why a successful company in it's own country won't venture forth and take a chance. Producing another Big Boy might be a solution but then people will complain about that too.

 

I guees my point is that it ain't as easy as just releasing model X and assume people will buy it. Kato is a known name among us who takes great interest in these things and among N-scalers I would presume but to the large public I can only assume that it is not a big brand. But what do I know, nothing actually.  

 

Magnus

[marknewton]

Mark,This I know from the discussions I been in at several of the local clubs including the 3 I am a member of and everybody I have talk to is at a lost why Kato doesn't do better..Kato can do better if they would...

They won't, for the reasons I have previously stated. This I know from my discussions with Kato employees. That makes your discussions with fellow clubbies rather redundant.

I think we can agree that their drive is one of the best on the market.

That's arguable, and in the context of this discussion, irrelevant. But to offer just one example, the recent Tomix ED75-500 has a superior mechanism to the Kato electric locos.

I am sure Kato knows they could have a large share of the HO and N Scale market by expanding their offerings and still they choose not to.

They choose not to for the reasons laboriously explained to you. You could equally argue that Walthers could have a large share of the Japanese market by expanding their range, and yet they choose not too. Why? Because it's not a part of their business model. They're an American company concentrating their efforts on the American market.

Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Mark.

[marknewton]

All this strikes an interesting question, if just for curiousity's sake (after all, in any case we're certainly not going to change Kato's market outlook or vision)...

Thank you! At least one person on this thread understands the reality of the situation!

....how big is the Japanese MR market as compared to the US MR market, and the US HO scale market in specific??? 

 

I can't answer that accurately without referring to a magazine article that I can't lay my hands on at the moment. But from what I recall the numbers - based on sales figures for the major manufacturers, surveys and magazine subscriptions - were close to the million mark. I don't think that even the most optimistic model railroad booster would suggest that there's that many active modellers in the US.

Cheers,

Mark.

[R. T. POTEET]

alco-fan & R. T. POTEET,
You both should know by now that people are people no matter what, and people like to complain.  For example, you'd think that rich people would have less to complain about then poor people, right?  Well, they complain just as much but about different things (just read the sports pages).

I've seen many an N-scaler complain about what's offered in HO-scale, just like on this thread one can see HO-scalers complain about what's offered in N-scale.  All groups whine and complain when they see something offered to another group that isn't offered to them.  It's basic human nature.  I don't see why the pair of you are taking only HO-scalers to task when every group does it.  IOW, I hope you are this vigilant when the next N-scaler or O-scaler posts on a thread about how something in HO-scale isn't offered to them.  I eagerly await your dual reprimands, comparisons to little boys' temper tantrums and the sarcastic bile of "Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!!!"

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Good response; I probably am deserving of the flat-of-your-blade reprimand for my somewhat sarcastic response. I will own up that I have done my share of bellyachin' about a perceived neglect by (N Scale) manufacturers. But you opened it up and here I come, both barrels!!!

Right at this particular moment N Scale recently has received a Challenger from Athearn; reservations are being taken for an upcoming Big Boy offering; apparently there is a Cab-forward in the offing from Intermountain; at the recent National Trade Show in Detroit Kato announced a GS4 and (another 'apparently') Pennsylvania GG1. Where, I ask the manufacturers, is an N Scale H-8, or an N Scale EM-1, or an N Scale M3/M4 - I know there is a brass model available out there and the photographs I have seen indicate at least a cosmetically quality model - or an N Scale Big Emma.  Perhaps the manufacturers have taken a close look at the market and concluded that those models, in the long turn, would not be strong sellers and, therefore, not worthy of production; I simply don't know. I do find it hard to comprehend how the largest modeling and technical society in the country - Uncle John's - can be so ignored. Santa Fe's 5001 and 5011 Classes - 2-10-4s for you uninitiated - are no less iconic than Big Boys and Cab-forwards but I sure don't see any of those coming. The C&O/VGN 2-6-6-6s do not represent any less a unique wheel arrangement than the Big Boy. I sure don't see any of those creeping over the horizon.  2-8-8-4s are completely invisible, and, with the demise of Rivarossi's Y6b there really isn't a 2-8-8-2 out there either. One can call it 'bellyaching' but 'frustration' might provide just a little better explanation.

And there, my friend, is my "Boo-Hoo-Hoo" of the day.     

[Harley-Davidson]

Does anybody doubt that if KATO releases, for example, an USA steamer with DCC & sound, will be better than anyone today at the market? I guess no claims, no always bussy tech support, no criticism in the forums, no thousands of mails to the importer for explanations, or sending back the models for repairs or refunds: just wonderfull masterpieces at reasonable prices. This what I think. KATO has the word!. Bye

[shawnee]

All this strikes an interesting question, if just for curiousity's sake (after all, in any case we're certainly not going to change Kato's market outlook or vision)....how big is the Japanese MR market as compared to the US MR market, and the US HO scale market in specific??? 

 

[BRAKIE]

Mark,This I know from the discussions I been in at several of the local clubs including the 3 I am a member of and everybody I have talk to is at a lost why Kato doesn't do better..Kato can do better if they would..I think we can agree that their drive is one of the best on the market. I am sure Kato knows they could have a large share of the HO and N Scale market by expanding their offerings and still they choose not to.

Best,

 

[alco_fan]

(Although, to give alco_fan the benefit of the doubt, I don't think he was referring to you or I when he mentioned xenophobia. At least I hope not...)

Nope, not you guys ...

[marknewton]

If a realistic assessment of Kato's business model sounds xenophobic to you, well, maybe you should adjust your sensitivity meter.

I dunno, Chuck, getting blokes to understand that Kato is a Japanese company catering to their Japanese customers is a big ask!

As for calling either yours truly or Mark Newton xenophobic (or, especially, anti-Japanese,) that's rather like calling the Pope anti-Catholic!

I'm bloodywell not xenophobic, and I can't be an "ugly American" unless I renounce my Australian citizenship. And there's Buckley's chance of that happening!

For the record alco_fan, I'm a lover of all things Japanese, and I model a private Japanese railway in HO.



Fugan Tetsudo MoHa5

(Although, to give alco_fan the benefit of the doubt, I don't think he was referring to you or I when he mentioned xenophobia. At least I hope not...)

Cheers,

Mark.

[selector]

I believe our originator is merely lamenting that Kato has not seen fit to offer more to the N. American HO modeling taste, and in doing so gives them full credit for the successes that they enjoy in other places, hard earned and deserved as they are.  I have nothing by Kato, but I willingly accept the enthusiastic support of those who do, and I am sure this is what doc is expressing.   Maybe, in view of what some responders assert, we should be thankful that they have condescended (I use that term with the tip of my tongue in my cheek) to supply N. American fans with anything at all!

If more modelers were to contact Kato USA and make a case, it is conceivable that Kato might offer something else in due course as a test.  It would probably take years, and many entreaties to convince them, and probably a partner to share the burden if things go sour...not sure of their practises...maybe they'd never do such a thing?

[marknewton]

Mark,I just don't buy into that lame excuse...

Not a "lame excuse", just a simple, unarguable fact, whether you "buy into it" or not. They concentrate on N because their primary market is Japan, and the dominant scale in Japan is N. Kato representatives themselves have stated this, in Japanese language modelling forums and Japanese magazines. I was told the same thing myself, talking to the Kato reps at a trade show on a visit a few years back. But if you presume to know better about Kato's marketing than Kato does, there's no point in continuing this exchange.

Kato has supplied drives for several manufacturers over the years so,they have a handle on the HO market.

No-one said otherwise. If you knew as much as you think you do, you'd be aware that Kato have made Japanese prototype models in HO for years, so they certainly have a "handle" on that scale. But even that range is limited, and not likely to be expanded, because their primary market is Japan, and the dominant scale in Japan is N. It may be hard for you to accept this, but Kato's sales to the US market are a drop in the ocean compared to the Japanese domestic market...

All the best,

Mark.

[BRAKIE]

Actually the wee scale-I can say that because I also model in N Scale-has come a long way over the years.I don't think anybody is bellyaching as much as you think..I suspect most HO modelers wonder why Kato doesn't do better in the HO field.

 

 

[Paul3]

alco-fan & R. T. POTEET,
You both should know by now that people are people no matter what, and people like to complain.  For example, you'd think that rich people would have less to complain about then poor people, right?  Well, they complain just as much but about different things (just read the sports pages).

I've seen many an N-scaler complain about what's offered in HO-scale, just like on this thread one can see HO-scalers complain about what's offered in N-scale.  All groups whine and complain when they see something offered to another group that isn't offered to them.  It's basic human nature.  I don't see why the pair of you are taking only HO-scalers to task when every group does it.  IOW, I hope you are this vigilant when the next N-scaler or O-scaler posts on a thread about how something in HO-scale isn't offered to them.  I eagerly await your dual reprimands, comparisons to little boys' temper tantrums and the sarcastic bile of "Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!!!"

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[R. T. POTEET]

I want a KATO company more active in the HO field, with more diesel and specially STEAM locos, DCC & sound factory equipped. They have the "know how", and their models are in the best range at the market: so, WHEN??? What do you think?. Thanks.

Okay, don't you HO Scalers strain yourselves getting your finger on the REPORT ABUSE button!!!

I have been wondering ever since the National Trade Show ended two months ago just how long it was going to take you HO Scalers to commence a lengthy bellyache because the manufacturers have, for a change, given N Scale a platter of Prime Rib and has served up Bum Steer! for you HO Scalers. YOU'RE HERE!!!!!

My! My! How are you ever going to survive on less than one new offering a month? Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!!!

YOU'RE HERE!!!!

[alco_fan]

I went back over the posts before yours and found ONE that stepped over the line into non-model-railroad political opinion. 

I found two, myself, but that one was certainly enough. There was also an earlier reference to sakuraniku that I thought was a bit heavy-handed and probably not made with benign intent.

The major point of my post was not the xenophobia, but the way we HO'ers (who enjoy most of the production of models in the hobby) throw an absolute hissy-fit when one company dares to serve another part of the industry more than it does HO. Comical, really, like an over-stuffed little boy who throws a fit because Mommy gives little sister the bigger slice of pie after dinner.

 

[tomikawaTT]

The xenophobic turn this thread has taken is regretable. No wonder people talk about the "ugly American".

Look, I model in HO, too, but you guys come off like a bunch of spoiled whiners. We have many more sources of engines and stuff in HO than in N scale ... and you guys have nothing better to do than complain about the _one_ supplier who does a little more for N scale? Get a grip.

I went back over the posts before yours and found ONE that stepped over the line into non-model-railroad political opinion.  I have no way of knowing whether that individual has the kind of up close, personal knowledge of Japanese culture that I acquired through years of living there, but it rather sounds like he was simply parroting some off-Forum propaganda sources.

If a realistic assessment of Kato's business model sounds xenophobic to you, well, maybe you should adjust your sensitivity meter.

As for calling either yours truly or Mark Newton xenophobic (or, especially, anti-Japanese,) that's rather like calling the Pope anti-Catholic!

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - using data gathered on the spot, by the modeler)

[Anonymous]

I walked into a hobby shop today on way home from work. There on the counter in front of the N scale area is a complete Kato N scale track planning template for use in graph paper. It includes all (That I could see) of the Kato N track segments.

I have been working on my wye which has grown to become a Junction. I managed to solve the 90 degree crossing problem by thinking in terms of degrees of curvature instead of radius. Two kato 22.5 degree sections = 45 degrees. Two sections of 45 degree curved track more = 90 degrees.

But alas, Im in HO which means the Kato bridges are not availible. No problem. I plan the Atlas Bridge with flex track and cork. I will have to engineer a solution to keep everything "Level" at the railhead but then again.. I love to solve problems.

Anyone can run a railroad up a mountain, but cannot come back down without a bridge. LOL.

Of course, if Kato woke up out of thier slumber and issued HO scale bridges, dropping one into the trackplan is... well... cheating aint it?

[shawnee]

While bashing Kato for having presumed "Japanese business characteristics" is so clearly wrong, it's undeniable that Kato is not Toyota, in either scale or business sense.  It's a small, closely held company, so I guess that there's a limit on what to expect. 

I think they've done a lot of interesting things; hey, I'm a Unitrack and Kato loco fan.  But it's also undeniable that when it comes to communication, Kato (or at least their US office) is either thick as a brick, or there is definite cultural divide.  I think they do little in the way of customer engagement, support or listening.  How much bigger would Unitrack be if they had something approaching the communications and instructional support of, say, Atlas?   I love their web site that proclaims in places "New in 2005!"  What does it take to update what is a pretty basic website? Good communicators they are not.  Luckily however, good engineers they are.  It's simply an engineering-led business that could grow a lot with some more effective marketing.

Hey, maybe I grumble because I think the track line is really good and I just wish they offered some more HO options or looked like they intended to at some time.  So I'm admittedly a grump on the subject. Maybe someone can educate me on this, but if you have the basic engineering done for a N scale track crossover, for example, is it much more expensive to replicate it in HO? 

The locos are first rate.  I have no quarrel for them on locos, because unlike with Unitrack where you more or less commit to their line of products, with locos any contribution from Kato is a welcome addition and augment to a wide field of other options.  I think their locos are excellent value for the money.

[Anonymous]

I am disappointed in some of the posts here.

If I was to ever consider N scale, Kato has already done all the necessary work to make it painless. They are adequate in HO scale and equiptment/models is quality when they do release it.

Easy does it.

[alco_fan]

The xenophobic turn this thread has taken is regretable. No wonder people talk about the "ugly American".

Look, I model in HO, too, but you guys come off like a bunch of spoiled whiners. We have many more sources of engines and stuff in HO than in N scale ... and you guys have nothing better to do than complain about the _one_ supplier who does a little more for N scale? Get a grip.