KATO HO more active, please!!!

[marknewton]

Mark,I just don't buy into that lame excuse...

Not a "lame excuse", just a simple, unarguable fact, whether you "buy into it" or not. They concentrate on N because their primary market is Japan, and the dominant scale in Japan is N. Kato representatives themselves have stated this, in Japanese language modelling forums and Japanese magazines. I was told the same thing myself, talking to the Kato reps at a trade show on a visit a few years back. But if you presume to know better about Kato's marketing than Kato does, there's no point in continuing this exchange.

Kato has supplied drives for several manufacturers over the years so,they have a handle on the HO market.

No-one said otherwise. If you knew as much as you think you do, you'd be aware that Kato have made Japanese prototype models in HO for years, so they certainly have a "handle" on that scale. But even that range is limited, and not likely to be expanded, because their primary market is Japan, and the dominant scale in Japan is N. It may be hard for you to accept this, but Kato's sales to the US market are a drop in the ocean compared to the Japanese domestic market...

All the best,

Mark.

[selector]

I believe our originator is merely lamenting that Kato has not seen fit to offer more to the N. American HO modeling taste, and in doing so gives them full credit for the successes that they enjoy in other places, hard earned and deserved as they are.  I have nothing by Kato, but I willingly accept the enthusiastic support of those who do, and I am sure this is what doc is expressing.   Maybe, in view of what some responders assert, we should be thankful that they have condescended (I use that term with the tip of my tongue in my cheek) to supply N. American fans with anything at all!

If more modelers were to contact Kato USA and make a case, it is conceivable that Kato might offer something else in due course as a test.  It would probably take years, and many entreaties to convince them, and probably a partner to share the burden if things go sour...not sure of their practises...maybe they'd never do such a thing?

[marknewton]

If a realistic assessment of Kato's business model sounds xenophobic to you, well, maybe you should adjust your sensitivity meter.

I dunno, Chuck, getting blokes to understand that Kato is a Japanese company catering to their Japanese customers is a big ask!

As for calling either yours truly or Mark Newton xenophobic (or, especially, anti-Japanese,) that's rather like calling the Pope anti-Catholic!

I'm bloodywell not xenophobic, and I can't be an "ugly American" unless I renounce my Australian citizenship. And there's Buckley's chance of that happening!

For the record alco_fan, I'm a lover of all things Japanese, and I model a private Japanese railway in HO.



Fugan Tetsudo MoHa5

(Although, to give alco_fan the benefit of the doubt, I don't think he was referring to you or I when he mentioned xenophobia. At least I hope not...)

Cheers,

Mark.

[alco_fan]

(Although, to give alco_fan the benefit of the doubt, I don't think he was referring to you or I when he mentioned xenophobia. At least I hope not...)

Nope, not you guys ...

[BRAKIE]

Mark,This I know from the discussions I been in at several of the local clubs including the 3 I am a member of and everybody I have talk to is at a lost why Kato doesn't do better..Kato can do better if they would..I think we can agree that their drive is one of the best on the market. I am sure Kato knows they could have a large share of the HO and N Scale market by expanding their offerings and still they choose not to.

Best,

 

[shawnee]

All this strikes an interesting question, if just for curiousity's sake (after all, in any case we're certainly not going to change Kato's market outlook or vision)....how big is the Japanese MR market as compared to the US MR market, and the US HO scale market in specific??? 

 

[Harley-Davidson]

Does anybody doubt that if KATO releases, for example, an USA steamer with DCC & sound, will be better than anyone today at the market? I guess no claims, no always bussy tech support, no criticism in the forums, no thousands of mails to the importer for explanations, or sending back the models for repairs or refunds: just wonderfull masterpieces at reasonable prices. This what I think. KATO has the word!. Bye

[R. T. POTEET]

alco-fan & R. T. POTEET,
You both should know by now that people are people no matter what, and people like to complain.  For example, you'd think that rich people would have less to complain about then poor people, right?  Well, they complain just as much but about different things (just read the sports pages).

I've seen many an N-scaler complain about what's offered in HO-scale, just like on this thread one can see HO-scalers complain about what's offered in N-scale.  All groups whine and complain when they see something offered to another group that isn't offered to them.  It's basic human nature.  I don't see why the pair of you are taking only HO-scalers to task when every group does it.  IOW, I hope you are this vigilant when the next N-scaler or O-scaler posts on a thread about how something in HO-scale isn't offered to them.  I eagerly await your dual reprimands, comparisons to little boys' temper tantrums and the sarcastic bile of "Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!!!"

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Good response; I probably am deserving of the flat-of-your-blade reprimand for my somewhat sarcastic response. I will own up that I have done my share of bellyachin' about a perceived neglect by (N Scale) manufacturers. But you opened it up and here I come, both barrels!!!

Right at this particular moment N Scale recently has received a Challenger from Athearn; reservations are being taken for an upcoming Big Boy offering; apparently there is a Cab-forward in the offing from Intermountain; at the recent National Trade Show in Detroit Kato announced a GS4 and (another 'apparently') Pennsylvania GG1. Where, I ask the manufacturers, is an N Scale H-8, or an N Scale EM-1, or an N Scale M3/M4 - I know there is a brass model available out there and the photographs I have seen indicate at least a cosmetically quality model - or an N Scale Big Emma.  Perhaps the manufacturers have taken a close look at the market and concluded that those models, in the long turn, would not be strong sellers and, therefore, not worthy of production; I simply don't know. I do find it hard to comprehend how the largest modeling and technical society in the country - Uncle John's - can be so ignored. Santa Fe's 5001 and 5011 Classes - 2-10-4s for you uninitiated - are no less iconic than Big Boys and Cab-forwards but I sure don't see any of those coming. The C&O/VGN 2-6-6-6s do not represent any less a unique wheel arrangement than the Big Boy. I sure don't see any of those creeping over the horizon.  2-8-8-4s are completely invisible, and, with the demise of Rivarossi's Y6b there really isn't a 2-8-8-2 out there either. One can call it 'bellyaching' but 'frustration' might provide just a little better explanation.

And there, my friend, is my "Boo-Hoo-Hoo" of the day.     

[marknewton]

All this strikes an interesting question, if just for curiousity's sake (after all, in any case we're certainly not going to change Kato's market outlook or vision)...

Thank you! At least one person on this thread understands the reality of the situation!

....how big is the Japanese MR market as compared to the US MR market, and the US HO scale market in specific??? 

 

I can't answer that accurately without referring to a magazine article that I can't lay my hands on at the moment. But from what I recall the numbers - based on sales figures for the major manufacturers, surveys and magazine subscriptions - were close to the million mark. I don't think that even the most optimistic model railroad booster would suggest that there's that many active modellers in the US.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Mark,This I know from the discussions I been in at several of the local clubs including the 3 I am a member of and everybody I have talk to is at a lost why Kato doesn't do better..Kato can do better if they would...

They won't, for the reasons I have previously stated. This I know from my discussions with Kato employees. That makes your discussions with fellow clubbies rather redundant.

I think we can agree that their drive is one of the best on the market.

That's arguable, and in the context of this discussion, irrelevant. But to offer just one example, the recent Tomix ED75-500 has a superior mechanism to the Kato electric locos.

I am sure Kato knows they could have a large share of the HO and N Scale market by expanding their offerings and still they choose not to.

They choose not to for the reasons laboriously explained to you. You could equally argue that Walthers could have a large share of the Japanese market by expanding their range, and yet they choose not too. Why? Because it's not a part of their business model. They're an American company concentrating their efforts on the American market.

Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Mark.

[Lillen]

Let us not forget that there are large sums at play here. Breaking in to a market and taking a part of the cake is expensive and for a company it can end up in a disaster. The U.S market is huge which is both a good and a bad thing. It's great if you make it but to make it will cost a lot of money. Also this hobby is now at a point where people seems to demand more and more exact replicas of specific prototypes. A 2-10-4 will not cut it unless you focus on the cheapest market segment and sell toys. Otherwise you will here people complaining about this and that being wrong and that they will only buy it if comes with that XXXX sound system because the one they put in is crap and that they will not touch it until it is released with the modifications that only existed between May and December 1966.

 

With that in mind I can understand why a successful company in it's own country won't venture forth and take a chance. Producing another Big Boy might be a solution but then people will complain about that too.

 

I guees my point is that it ain't as easy as just releasing model X and assume people will buy it. Kato is a known name among us who takes great interest in these things and among N-scalers I would presume but to the large public I can only assume that it is not a big brand. But what do I know, nothing actually.  

 

Magnus

[BRAKIE]

Mark,The big picture is those "clubbies" are counted among the buying hobbyist to include Kato products..Some are loyal Kato customers..So,I think it is important it should be noted that this type of Kato discussion goes far beyond modelrailroader.com.

Frankly I don't have a problem with Kato's business decisions..Athearn and Atlas been getting my locomotive dollars for quite some time since I dropped P2K.I do own 4 Kato GP35s which is custom painted for C&O.

BTW..I suspect very few has heard of a Tomix ED75-50 since very few U.S. modelers buys Japanese railroad models...I had to look it up.

[marknewton]

Mark,The big picture is those "clubbies" are counted among the buying hobbyist to include Kato products..Some are loyal Kato customers.

I've no doubt they are loyal, but they are a small minority nonetheless. How much influence do you reckon they should have with a foreign company?

BTW..I suspect very few has heard of a Tomix ED75-50 since very few U.S. modelers buys Japanese railroad models

Very few, you reckon? It's all relative. Amongst the hundreds of thousands of Japanese modellers who know what an ED75 is,



there's probably few who know or care what a C&O GP35 is, either. What's your point?

Cheers,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

Marknetwon, I knew nothing about your Garrets until one showed up in a train sim game a while ago.

There is alot of train stuff in the world I know nothing about. As far as Im concerned, Kato is doing well with the US Track in HO scale.

[shawnee]

I can't answer that accurately without referring to a magazine article that I can't lay my hands on at the moment. But from what I recall the numbers - based on sales figures for the major manufacturers, surveys and magazine subscriptions - were close to the million mark. I don't think that even the most optimistic model railroad booster would suggest that there's that many active modellers in the US.

Cheers,

Mark.

 

Well, if that is true, this is very suprising and interesting to me.  I had no idea that MR was pursued with such a passion in Japan.  On a per capita basis, it's really astounding information. It would indeed explain a lot about Kato's motivations.

Though in any scenario, that US office of theirs could do a lot better with communications. 

[marknewton]

Well, if that is true, this is very suprising and interesting to me.  I had no idea that MR was pursued with such a passion in Japan.  On a per capita basis, it's really astounding information. It would indeed explain a lot about Kato's motivations.

Well, part of that comes down to sheer numbers. Based on the 2005 Japan Population Census, the total population as of October 1, 2005 was 127.76 million, so there's a good start on having a large number of modellers and/or railfans.

But I reckon the major reason for there being so many people buying models in Japan is that for a large part of the population, trains and railways are an integral part of their normal daily lives. The combined Tokyo rail network carries passengers in numbers that other railways could only dream of.

But it's not just Tokyo that has an abundance of railways, subways, metros, tramways and monorails to travel on. Most major towns and cities have some form of commuter rail service, or trams or metros. Even many small rural towns and villages have some rail service, even if it is only a third-sector railway carting schoolkids around in an ageing diesel railcar or museum-piece interurban. And linking all of Japan is the famous Shinkansen network.

So unlike the US, awareness and knowledge of railways is widespread, and the railways themselves are generally well-regarded by the people. In addition to the rail system, JR operates buses & ferries, as do the private railways. Many of the private railways are diversified businesses with interests in shopping malls, travel agencies, theme parks, and even baseball teams. So the railway plays a much more visible role in Japanese society than it doe sin many other countries.

There is a lot of railway-related material in the mainstream media, and some of Japan's best-known literature and anime have railway themes. When steam was being phased out in the mid-1970s, it was common to see giant posters in the street lamenting the passing of the "SL", and even get shopping bags with images of famous locos printed on them. I still have my C62 "Tsubame" carry bags...

And that's the other big difference to the US. Generally speaking, the stigma attached to being a railfan or a modeller in the west is not evident in Japan.

Given that for many Japanese space in the home is at a premium, large home layouts such as are common in the US are not often seen. The tendency instead is to own large numbers of specific trains, as well as individual locos and stock, and to run them either on temporary track on the floor at home, or at club meetings, again using temporary track. Mini-layouts and dioramas are also popular, as these require little space.

There is a bewildering number and variety of Japanese trains that have been modelled, and the short production runs favoured by the main manufacturers mean that any new models sell out very quickly.

So, from all this you can see that the conditions in Japan are ideal to encourage a large domestic market for model railway products.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Just to stir the pot a bit, if Kato did release a US-prototype steam loco in HO, this is the standard of model you could expect to see...

http://www.katomodels.com/product/nmi/ho_d51.shtml

Cheers,

Mark.

[tomikawaTT]

Mark,

!!!

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with several D50's and only 1 D51 nowhere near as nice as the Kato version)

[shawnee]

Well, if that is true, this is very suprising and interesting to me.  I had no idea that MR was pursued with such a passion in Japan.  On a per capita basis, it's really astounding information. It would indeed explain a lot about Kato's motivations.

Well, part of that comes down to sheer numbers. Based on the 2005 Japan Population Census, the total population as of October 1, 2005 was 127.76 million, so there's a good start on having a large number of modellers and/or railfans.

But I reckon the major reason for there being so many people buying models in Japan is that for a large part of the population, trains and railways are an integral part of their normal daily lives. The combined Tokyo rail network carries passengers in numbers that other railways could only dream of.

But it's not just Tokyo that has an abundance of railways, subways, metros, tramways and monorails to travel on. Most major towns and cities have some form of commuter rail service, or trams or metros. Even many small rural towns and villages have some rail service, even if it is only a third-sector railway carting schoolkids around in an ageing diesel railcar or museum-piece interurban. And linking all of Japan is the famous Shinkansen network.

So unlike the US, awareness and knowledge of railways is widespread, and the railways themselves are generally well-regarded by the people. In addition to the rail system, JR operates buses & ferries, as do the private railways. Many of the private railways are diversified businesses with interests in shopping malls, travel agencies, theme parks, and even baseball teams. So the railway plays a much more visible role in Japanese society than it doe sin many other countries.

There is a lot of railway-related material in the mainstream media, and some of Japan's best-known literature and anime have railway themes. When steam was being phased out in the mid-1970s, it was common to see giant posters in the street lamenting the passing of the "SL", and even get shopping bags with images of famous locos printed on them. I still have my C62 "Tsubame" carry bags...

And that's the other big difference to the US. Generally speaking, the stigma attached to being a railfan or a modeller in the west is not evident in Japan.

Given that for many Japanese space in the home is at a premium, large home layouts such as are common in the US are not often seen. The tendency instead is to own large numbers of specific trains, as well as individual locos and stock, and to run them either on temporary track on the floor at home, or at club meetings, again using temporary track. Mini-layouts and dioramas are also popular, as these require little space.

There is a bewildering number and variety of Japanese trains that have been modelled, and the short production runs favoured by the main manufacturers mean that any new models sell out very quickly.

So, from all this you can see that the conditions in Japan are ideal to encourage a large domestic market for model railway products.

Cheers,

Mark.

That pretty much explains everything to me about Kato and Unitrack.   That's why they produce such high quality temporary track and focus predominantly on N.  They have a huge domestic primary market.  I get it now.  For one, I'll not wonder about Kato and HO anymore. 

 

[marknewton]

D50s, eh Chuck? I didn't realise there were ever HOj D50s on the market. Who made them?

Cheers,

Mark.

[tomikawaTT]

D50s, eh Chuck? I didn't realise there were ever HOj D50s on the market. Who made them?

Cheers,

Mark.

Hi, Mark,

My D50s were manufactured by Miyazawa, purchased at a LHS in Tokyo in 1970.  They combine a brass superstructure with a cast frame, as does my lone Adachi D51 from the same time period.

D50380 is the dog of the fleet, because the tender truck side frames were misdrilled and have never been corrected.  I use it as a mobile track tester.  If that touchy tender can run on newly laid track, nothing else will have problems.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[marknewton]

Oh - I should have realised they'd be models that you got some time ago. I asked because I wouldn't mind a D50, even if it was just for show. I'm rather partial to them, especially those engines with the full-size smoke deflectors.



I first saw the preserved example at Umekoji, which is where I developed a taste for these engines.



I'd never heard of either manufacturer before, so now I've learned something new, and added two names to my list of things to look out for on the second-hand market!

Cheers,

Mark.

[tomikawaTT]

Mark,

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, I just had a fact slap me in the face!

Thanks to JNR standardization, very little tooling is required to produce the basic structures of the entire JNR steam locomotive fleet as it existed in the '50s and '60s:

• There were only 11 wheel arrangements total, including one tank loco with the same frame dimensions as a tender loco and one tender loco group that was simply an earlier loco group 'modified' with 4-wheel trailing trucks and re-calibrated equalization.
• Six of the seven classes of 4 axle (Dxx) freight locos have virtually identical frame dimensions (except for the trailing truck.)  Four classes have identical valve motion hangers and drive wheels.
• Likewise, eight of the 10 classes of 3 axle (Cxx) passenger locos have identical frame dimensions.  (The exceptions are two non-identical classes of 3-cylinder 4-6-2s.)
• With few exceptions, JNR locos were produced in large numbers.

Compare this to the situation in the United States:

• Nine wheel arrangements of rod-driven articulateds, two of duplex drives, at least 19 wheel arrangements of standard rod-driven locos, plus geared piston drives and a variety of one-off and experimental types, all of wildly varying appearance and with a bewildering variety of driver types and sizes.
• Except for the USRA designs (and not all of them) and those built for a few highly standardized class 1s, most US locomotives were built in small numbers.
• Instead of one main prototype, the US modeler has a plethora of possibilities, ranging in characteristics from the NYC ("Water Level Route") to the D&RGW ("Through the Rockies, not around them",) with locomotives specifically designed for their conditions.

So, imagine yourself as a Japanese model railroad manufacturer.  Which loco will you produce?  A modern NYC design?  (Tenshodo did that in the late 1950s.)  Still another Big Boy?  The one and only 2-6-0 operated by the Podunk and Northern?  No matter what choice you make, it will not be accepted by the majority of US modelers, many of whom will be vocally displeased.  OTOH, with a single set of basic mechanical parts you can make two classes of 2-8-2 and two classes of 2-8-4, all four of which will be widely popular in your "up close and personal" domestic market...

I rest my case.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Milwhiawatha]

Be nice to see them bring the Toyota Supra they had back out too but we probably wont get it.

[marknewton]

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, I just had a fact slap me in the face!

Thanks to JNR standardization, very little tooling is required to produce the basic structures of the entire JNR steam locomotive fleet as it existed in the '50s and '60s...

Compare this to the situation in the United States...

So, imagine yourself as a Japanese model railroad manufacturer. Which loco will you produce?...No matter what choice you make, it will not be accepted by the majority of US modelers, many of whom will be vocally displeased. OTOH, with a single set of basic mechanical parts you can make two classes of 2-8-2 and two classes of 2-8-4, all four of which will be widely popular in your "up close and personal" domestic market...

I rest my case.

Chuck, I hadn't really thought that aspect through but you're right, they're all valid points you've made.

I always reckoned the USRA designs were a safe bet for the reasons you state, but apart from those, I'd hate to try to pick a loco that would sell well if mass-produced. It seems to me that all the obvious types have been already done, or in the case of the UP 4-8-8-4, overdone! It's interesting to see some of the more adventurous choices being made by the likes of BLI.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Marknetwon, I knew nothing about your Garrets until one showed up in a train sim game a while ago.

A simulated Garratt, eh? I reckon it wouldn't be anywhere near as exciting/noisy/dirty/hot as the real thing!

Cheers

Mark.

[Lillen]

Is there any garrets available anywhere? DCC, H0?

 I love those ever since I saw them on a train show. They look very nice.

Magnus

[Anonymous]

Is there any garrets available anywhere? DCC, H0?

 I love those ever since I saw them on a train show. They look very nice.

Magnus

Only on one of the Trainz video games for computers.

[marknewton]

Is there any garrets available anywhere? DCC, H0?

Yes, Magnus, there are HO Garratts with DCC available, contrary to the previous answer.

http://eurekamodels.com.au/Garratt.html

I don't own one, but a number of my friends have them. They are a very nice model indeed.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Anonymous]

Is there any garrets available anywhere? DCC, H0?

Yes, Magnus, there are HO Garratts with DCC available, contrary to the previous answer.

http://eurekamodels.com.au/Garratt.html

I don't own one, but a number of my friends have them. They are a very nice model indeed.

Cheers,

Mark.

I visited the page and I am very happy that this is a nice engine in HO!