This afternoon, one of my nephews visited. He repairs auto radios and CD changers, and is interested in elecrtonics, so I wanted to show off my BLI E8 and Digitrax DCC system. When I started the system, I could not get it to work in DCC mode. It would not even do the air release noise indicating the decoder recognizing the DCC carrier signal. It did run in conventional DC mode.
My nephew suggested it could be the key to his Toyota Prius. Later I found the key fob sends out a radio signal that the car recognizes so the owner does not have to insert the key to start the car. That must have been the problem because later this evening when I tried the system, it ran with no problems.
Strange things happen with with all this new electronics stuff!
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Heck, I'm skepical, but I could be wrong. With the DCC signal in the track, and huge, I have trouble imaginging the problem there. I can imagine, although it is a stretch (in my mind), some kind of interference with a wireless throttle system. I think I'd need to see another experiment before I buy this. Like have it working, he walks into the room with the key, and it stops. He leaves, and it works again.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
loathar wrote:Sounds like a job for Mythbusters!
That sounds like a pretty interesting episode to me! Adam and Jamie build a small test layout with DCC system and test the new "smart" keys with various decoders and throttles...
Scott - Dispatcher, Norfolk Southern
Ahh, yes. The wonders of modern electronics - when they don't work.
Now, does anyone still wonder why my control system is still good old brute force and ignorance analog DC?
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Have you checked for lead and formaldehyde concentrations?
Teditor
From what I understand keys and other similar objects with embedded chips don't send out any signals at all. They are not powered. The receiver in the car or wherever sends out a signal and it triggers a reply or other method from the chip in the key. So I doubt the key had anything to do with the problems. DCC signals travel through the track.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
Perhaps your cloaking device is down, or a problem with the dilithium sequencer. Set your phasers on stun.
Dave Nelson
dknelson wrote:Perhaps your cloaking device is down, or a problem with the dilithium sequencer. Set your phasers on stun. Dave Nelson
Now Dave, be sensible, everyone knows that dilithium sequencer's only work on DC.
dirtyd79 wrote:I'm going with R.T. Poteet's explanantion. A friend of mine used to work in a nursing home and she told me that's a similar reason as to why people with older style pacemakers can't be around microwave ovens or cellphones.
That's because these things are powered, and can emit radio waves. Chipped keys cannot.
I discussed this with Mr. Moore and he assures me this is part of a global conspiracy by the Japanese electronics makers to subvert and control all electronic systems. So....blame the Prius.
Tilden
Railphotog wrote: That's because these things are powered, and can emit radio waves. Chipped keys cannot.
There are devices which by them selves do not broadcast, yet in the presence of radio waves of certian frequences will broadcast on a totaly seperate frequency.
They do not use any sort of battery or other electrical storage, nor did it have any electrical circuts, but, when exposed to radio waves of certian frequencies, they reflect them back at different frequencies. In theory they could be made extreamly small - even chip sized, if all they were to do is send back one or two specific signals rather than voice transmition as the original which was about the size of a pack of cigeretts and used for spying by the soviets.
http://www.spybusters.com/Great_Seal_Bug.html
When in collage, I had a cheep portable stereo, that with a certian set of head phones, I could pick up the anti-theft sensors, and knew when someone would go through the sensors with something that was tagged, because the tag would change the radio waves of the sensors - so even though the tag didn't broadcast any radio waves, it did change the radiowaves that were broadcast from another device.
So it is possable that a chipped key could produce some kind of interfearance, even if it is improbable.
How can my hand-held key, when I press the button on the plastic housing at its base, not communicate somehow with my Corolla if the button is meant to open the car's door locks before I actually make contact with the door handles? There has to be two-way communication between the car and the key electronics, and that means my key must have a capacity to emit a radio signal.
I also find it hard to believe that this 0.10 watt emission can counter the much stronger and more direct signal to the decoder coming along 17 volts and an offered 5 amps.
We need an electrical engineer to explain this possibility.
I would like to do some further testing as well, but my nephew is on his way home to Maryland, so he will not be available until next year.
All I can figure is he was standing near the track, and it acted as an antenna, either transmitting or receiving a signal that would not let my system function. It is a Digitrax plug-in system, not a radio system.
Maybe someone from Digitrax is listening out there, and could make a comment?
As far as garage door openers go, I tried replacing the lightbulb in the door opener with a compact flurocesent light (18W vs 75W), and something in the fluroescent electronics kept the door from working.
selector wrote: I also find it hard to believe that this 0.10 watt emission can counter the much stronger and more direct signal to the decoder coming along 17 volts and an offered 5 amps.
Actually, the DCC signal is a low volt, low amp digital signal piggybacked on top of the 17V/5A power supply from the DCC system, so some small outside source could upset it.
I drive a Prius with the Smart Key system.
I also use Digitrax DCC.
I have no such problems.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
tomikawaTT wrote: Ahh, yes. The wonders of modern electronics - when they don't work.Now, does anyone still wonder why my control system is still good old brute force and ignorance analog DC?Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
Yeah, I still wonder!
selector wrote:How can my hand-held key, when I press the button on the plastic housing at its base, not communicate somehow with my Corolla if the button is meant to open the car's door locks before I actually make contact with the door handles? There has to be two-way communication between the car and the key electronics, and that means my key must have a capacity to emit a radio signal.I also find it hard to believe that this 0.10 watt emission can counter the much stronger and more direct signal to the decoder coming along 17 volts and an offered 5 amps.We need an electrical engineer to explain this possibility.
Somehow I find it highly impropable that the "presence" of an electronic key would cause this to happen. If your nephew were pushing the button on the key while he was standing near the layout then, yes, it might be a plausible explanation.
Aren't these electronic keys dominant until they are engaged - i.e. the button physically pushed? What would be the reason for sending out a beckon signal?
The electronic thermometer display in my bedroom does do this every 90-120 sec. because it's trying to link up with the monitor, which is out on the porch. If the key were emitting a constant signal, it seems that the tiny watch battery it runs on would drain pretty quickly. That just doesn't make sense.
George, maybe your nephew is really an and emitting some sort of interferring gamma radiation, with the plans of trying to take over the world? I'm going to start wearing tinfoil over my head.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Quite often when I put something electronic in my pocket, something else in the pocket can end up pushing the buttons.
If it is a low level constant signal that could be the case ( remember his nephew doesn't have to put the key in the ignition to start the car ). Remember many devices ( like proximity detectors or even heterodyning radar dectors and burgler alarms ) emmit low level radio signals as a normal part of their operation.
tstage wrote: I'm going to start wearing tinfoil over my head.
I'm going to start wearing tinfoil over my head.
Already doing that.
GMTRacing wrote:Is it possible that Teditor has spent too much time in a closed room with his model cement? It is possible that the key interferes with the DCC system. In addition to the garage door openers ledgend has it that the early 914 Porsche (VW) was affected by aircraft radar. More recently we found a Caterham 7 we were working on would not start if we got into it with our regular Ford Focus chipped keys. When we called and complained we were asked why we carried our keys in our pockets at work. Seems silly, no? J.R.
OK, I had a '71 914 back in the day, and the only radar it was affected by was hanging on the side of a state police vehicle - it would automatically hit the brakes whenever it noticed one.
Now I have a Mazda MX-5 with one of those keyless keys. I'll try it tonight and let you know if it messed with my DCC.