Another Made in China Toy Recall, will Model Railway products be next?

[railroadinmedic]

So unfortunate, but serious at the same time...If anyone does confirm any problems with the paint in our locos, please pass it on, there are a lot of kids (Including the adults here), out there playing with these trains. Thanks guys for the info...

[Anonymous]

A reminder of the old days when kids used to cut their fingers on the sharp edges of tin plate toys made in Japan.

I was one of them kids so I have to jump in here with my two cents worth. Before I start, keep in mind I do believe in precautions to do things safely. However I also believe that there is also a lot of over reaction to things also. By todays beliefs and standards I should not have made it past the age of 15. I grew up on a farm where everything was painted with lead base paint, got a B-B gun at age 10, a 22 rifle at age 12, shot gun and 30-30 rifle at age 14. Started fishing with lead sinkers at age 6, drank milk straight from the cows, breathed DDT from all the crop dusters, sprayed the cows and the barn with something that smelled like kerosene for flies, played with those tin toys and whistles from cacker jacks and worst of all breathed that smoke from my Lionel train. With all the news of anti-freeze tainted tooth paste and lead based painted toys and products comeing out of China I started checking the origin of our tooth paste. Guess what. All the toothe paste I checked, the origin was not listed. Only that it was distributed by ABC or XYZ in Timbucktoo, NJ. At least we do know where or models are coming from, and no I'm not worried that they may have lead based paint on them. On the other hand I do worry about young kids teething on these toys and products and believe in these recalls. Is there a ral danger here. Somewhat, but I don't believe its as bad as some make it out to be, but then why take chances. Ken

 I agree about the child safety element, no doubt about it Lead does effect the brain, just wondering if it has a worse effect on kids than playing with the XBox or PS2 hour after hour, I have a Saturday job selling these games to grownups and kids, just love the parents that let thier 7 year olds play 15+ games with blood and gutts, no siree I think folks can grow up crazy without sucking lead.

[Eriediamond]

A reminder of the old days when kids used to cut their fingers on the sharp edges of tin plate toys made in Japan.

I was one of them kids so I have to jump in here with my two cents worth. Before I start, keep in mind I do believe in precautions to do things safely. However I also believe that there is also a lot of over reaction to things also. By todays beliefs and standards I should not have made it past the age of 15. I grew up on a farm where everything was painted with lead base paint, got a B-B gun at age 10, a 22 rifle at age 12, shot gun and 30-30 rifle at age 14. Started fishing with lead sinkers at age 6, drank milk straight from the cows, breathed DDT from all the crop dusters, sprayed the cows and the barn with something that smelled like kerosene for flies, played with those tin toys and whistles from cacker jacks and worst of all breathed that smoke from my Lionel train. With all the news of anti-freeze tainted tooth paste and lead based painted toys and products comeing out of China I started checking the origin of our tooth paste. Guess what. All the toothe paste I checked, the origin was not listed. Only that it was distributed by ABC or XYZ in Timbucktoo, NJ. At least we do know where or models are coming from, and no I'm not worried that they may have lead based paint on them. On the other hand I do worry about young kids teething on these toys and products and believe in these recalls. Is there a ral danger here. Somewhat, but I don't believe its as bad as some make it out to be, but then why take chances. Ken

[grayfox1119]

For those who have read Ancient history, the Fall of the Roman Empire, the water pipes were made of lead, and many of the Romans who drank of that water, over time became nut cases, like Nero and many others. Lead accumulates in the brain and causes all sorts of nasty neurological disorders.

I wonder if that explains the behavior of some of the folks who get out of line on this forum? Naaaaaaaaaaa.

[Anonymous]

A reminder of the old days when kids used to cut their fingers on the sharp edges of tin plate toys made in Japan.

[BRAKIE]

Let's see now..In the 50s we played with lead solders,cars and other toys painted with lead paint..We live in houses painted with lead paint..We still use lead shot,lead headed jigs and other jig like fishing lures,we use lead sinkers.Many fishermen make sinkers from lead removed from car batteries...Why aren't we all dead? Is it because watch dog groups hasn't scared the living daylights out of everybody though irresponsible scare tactic news reports?

Sorry guys but,I am beyond any scare tactics watch dog groups can release to a irresponsible news media.

China bad? Hello? Anybody home? Our own industry has poison the water and the very air we breath..They put tons of chemicals on our food-along with other unpleasantry that is best let unnamed at the dinner hour ..They give cattle chemicals so they can gain weight or produce more milk.That cigarette,cigar or snuff you use is loaded with chemicals,animal droppings and other unpleasantry..

Now todays manufacturers must deal with OSHA,EPA,local city governments,state governments,the Feds,must pay workers comprehension,their share of employee Social Security..Then theres paid vacations,paid holidays,401K plan and a livable wage that will retain workers.After all of that the components for the product could come from Mexico,China or Japan.

 

[loathar]

TrainFreak-This story is all over the news today. They just said it would cost around 20% more to make the stuff here. I'd be willing to pay it.

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/

Call me cynical, but that site is totally bogus.

Our production factory overseas employs around 800 workers at an average of about US$125/month ($1500 a year), whereas similarly skilled workers in the U.S. would be making, depending on locale, $20-30k a year. On the low end, for argument's sake, that's a different of $18,500 per employee per year.. or for all 800 employees, a difference of $14,800,000.

I'd love for the good folks at "howtobuyamerican.com" to explain how they see those labor costs, combined with the cheaper price of materials overseas, being consistent with a 20% increase in production costs. It'd be interesting, if nothing else.

They just had a guy on the news from the association of US manufacturers. He just showed a whole list of companies making games and products here in the US that aren't 500% more than their cheap Chinese counter parts. These were successful companies that have been in business a long time, so apparently it can be done.

I'm no expert, but I wonder if this is a case of some companies, distributors and retailers crying wolf like the building contractors that say a home will cost 8 times more if they can't use illegal labor to build them.

The guy from the association of manufacturers said prices would rise an average of only 22% if we made our stuff here. This is the guys job to figure these numbers out. Japanese cars don't cost 500% more just because they're built here.

Like I said, I'm no expert, but the #'s on both ends of the spectrum don't make sense with the successful examples that already exist.

[selector]

Tsk!  Dontcha hate it when the sober voices of experience and reason throw cold water on a perfectly good thread?

[ChrisKSDF]

TrainFreak-This story is all over the news today. They just said it would cost around 20% more to make the stuff here. I'd be willing to pay it.

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/

Call me cynical, but that site is totally bogus.

Our production factory overseas employs around 800 workers at an average of about US$125/month ($1500 a year), whereas similarly skilled workers in the U.S. would be making, depending on locale, $20-30k a year. On the low end, for argument's sake, that's a different of $18,500 per employee per year.. or for all 800 employees, a difference of $14,800,000.

I'd love for the good folks at "howtobuyamerican.com" to explain how they see those labor costs, combined with the cheaper price of materials overseas, being consistent with a 20% increase in production costs. It'd be interesting, if nothing else.

[ChrisKSDF]

With all these problems coming from China, it is making me believe that production factories should come back to America. Yes, it would make the cost of these products rise, but I think I would be willing to pay that extra bit (or cut down on purchases) for that extra safety and peace-of-mind that would insue. Not only that, but it would increase the number of job openings in this country and help out our economy.

Extra bit? I think many people outside of the international production industry are blissfully unaware of just what kind of price differences we would see manufacturing goods in the U.S. instead of China.

I'm in the manufacturing business (model aircraft, not trains) and deal with China quite heavily, and people would be astounded at the cost difference to produce an identical item overseas, and domestically. You are looking at, in many cases, unit costs 8-10x higher.

On top of that, the hobby industry as a whole works under a pretty uniform business model, where the model is produced by a factory, which is contracted out (or owned) by the manufacturer, who then appoints distributors, who sell the product to retail outlets, who finally sell the product on the front lines to the consumer.

That's a lot of people in the pecking order to try to make a buck, and while everyone from manufacturer to retailer tries to maintain his own margins, unit cost increases at the production level lead to exponentially higher prices passed along to the end user.

Example, using typical margins:

$1.00 Unit Cost (raw) -> $2.00 cost to manufacturer -> $3.50 cost to distributor -> $5.50 cost to retailer - > $10.95 cost to consumer

$4.00 Unit Cost (raw) -> $8.00 cost to manufacturer -> $14.00 cost to distributor - > $23.00 cost to retailer - > $47.95 cost to consumer

Margins, margins, margins. These are only hypothetical examples, but are based on my real-world experiences in manufacturing, and how what seem to be nominal increases in unit cost loom much larger when the product is finally passed onto the consumer.

Like it or not, foreign production isn't going anywhere. As China begins to crack down on Mickey Mouse outfits pulling stunts like the ones we're hearing about now, new factories will (and already have started to) spring up in other developing countries, such as Vietnam, the Philippines, Indonesia, etc. As Utopian as the sentiments I've quoted above are, they aren't based in reality, and will never come to fruition -- after all, who's going to be willing to pay $599.95 for that Athearn Genesis 70MAC that retails, as of now, for $129.95?

 

[Tilden]

Simon and Dick are right.  The biggest cause of lead poisioning is ingestion.  The main thrust of lead abatement is to remove the lead from things/areas where children might chew on.  That is why lead paint on toys for younger children is such a problem.

The main cleaning point for lead is "Wash your hands".

And I really like kissing my Pioneer Zephyer good night.....

Tilden

[loathar]

TrainFreak-This story is all over the news today. They just said it would cost around 20% more to make the stuff here. I'd be willing to pay it.

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/

 

[TrainFreak409]

I hope none of my Hot Wheels are affected...I've bought so many of them recently...

With all these problems coming from China, it is making me believe that production factories should come back to America. Yes, it would make the cost of these products rise, but I think I would be willing to pay that extra bit (or cut down on purchases) for that extra safety and peace-of-mind that would insue. Not only that, but it would increase the number of job openings in this country and help out our economy.

However, this probably will never happen, as people are too money hungry and want to do this the cheap way. Well, this just goes to show ya, there is no way to do something cheap that is without problem...

[Anonymous]

Word is gettng around, it appears that China manufactures are cutting corners after production has already startred, and initial models ( and manufacturing processes ) have been approved, without the knowlage of the retailers - unless the retailers happen to catch something in the middle of the production run.

Retailers, are also finding out that manufactures are subcontracting without permission, and the subcontractors are not nessasarly using the same manufacturing process that was approved..

China has been cutting corners for years, back in the 80s Miniota shipped the entire production line for their X300 SLR camera from Japan to Shanghai China, new name for camera was Seagull, first batch was OK strong and reliable, within a short while the Shanghai factory had found ways of making the camera cheaper, the result was bits of plactic breeaking off the camera body and a very unreliable camera.

Not all is lost with Chinese made products though, I have five MicroAce steam locos that run beautifully, every bit as good as the Japanese Kato equivelant, I think Chinese manufacturing has come of age much the same way Japanese made items did years ago, only thing is I wont eat Chinese grown food.

[loathar]

With an item that has lead based paint on it it's not necessary for you to lick it or put it in your mouth. Handling it is enough. Lead can be absorbed through the skin and whatever you handle afterward get the lead on it, including food. You may already be contaminated and not realize it. As for me, I've already had lead poisoning and it wasn't pretty.

Happily, all of my models were either made in Japan or purchased in the United States before everybody moved their manufacturing to China.

Not so happily, I work with lead (60-40 solder) all the time in my modeling.  Also, all that Japanese brass was soldered together, and a good many of my locos have lead weights.

I learned a VERY long time ago that washing up after working with ANYTHING that hadn't just come out of full decontamination was the only way to fly.  The same applies to working on the railroad now.

Sometimes I wonder if that Lionel box car I teethed on was decorated with lead-based paint.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Yeah, but Nokia just announced they are recalling 46 million cell phones that were made in Japan with Japanese batteries that can catch fire on the chargers.

Model trains-Finger lickin good!

[Arjay1969]

Geez.....what is this world coming to.  You can see the warning label on the next Rivarossi release

"Do not lick this Big Boy, it may contain harmful chemicals"

You laugh, but I've already seen it....Great West Models (at least when I worked at a hobby shop a few years ago) had, in big, bold letters "DO NOT EAT" on all of its detail parts packages.  It amused the heck out of me then, and still does now.

Robert Beaty

The Laughing Hippie

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Sometimes I wonder if that Lionel box car I teethed on was decorated with lead-based paint.

If it was made before 1978 it's a pretty good bet it was. In the mid to late 70's most all paint containing lead was banned for sale or use in the US. In the early to mid 80's water fountains with lead lined cooling tanks were pulled from all schools in the US.

[Pathfinder]

Ha, funny stuff here, licking our trains!

My concern would be in doing modifications to decorated units that involve cutting or sanding ie disturbing the finish in some way that would allow me to inhale or touch something I should not.

Oh well, we will just wait and see.

[tomikawaTT]

With an item that has lead based paint on it it's not necessary for you to lick it or put it in your mouth. Handling it is enough. Lead can be absorbed through the skin and whatever you handle afterward get the lead on it, including food. You may already be contaminated and not realize it. As for me, I've already had lead poisoning and it wasn't pretty.

Happily, all of my models were either made in Japan or purchased in the United States before everybody moved their manufacturing to China.

Not so happily, I work with lead (60-40 solder) all the time in my modeling.  Also, all that Japanese brass was soldered together, and a good many of my locos have lead weights.

I learned a VERY long time ago that washing up after working with ANYTHING that hadn't just come out of full decontamination was the only way to fly.  The same applies to working on the railroad now.

Sometimes I wonder if that Lionel box car I teethed on was decorated with lead-based paint.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[selector]

Geez.....what is this world coming to.  You can see the warning label on the next Rivarossi release

"Do not lick this Big Boy, it may contain harmful chemicals"

Aawww!   If'n I caint lick it, it ain't worth buyin'!

Mattel is just the latest organization to ask themselves the question, and then they did the right thing when they learned what they feared most.  So, will other groups that rely on Chinese processes for production take a big breath and follow suit?  News at eleven.

[Walter Clot]

Good to be back in loathar.  Our last posts crossed in the posting.  See my previous one for my thoughts.

 

Walter in Columbia

[Walter Clot]

It would seem to me, that we must wear rubber gloves and warn visitors to not touch the trains and etc!

Walter in Columbia, TN

[loathar]

Boy are all you guys fast!!  I just heard it on the radio. I heard something about model cars.  I was wondering about Malibu, Reel, Fresh Cherries and Norscot which are all made in China.  I tried to find a mfg. list on a Google search, but couldn't.

I was going to ask the question, "What will you do about it?"  I hadn't considered that some may be out there licking their stuff.  I wan't looking for an answer from them!

 Thanks for any other info.

 

Walter in Columbia, TN 

Great to see you back Walter! The items in question are sold by Mattel. But who knows if the company that makes their stuff makes our train stuff too. Even if our cars got recalled, I wouldn't turn mine in. They're just going to sit un touched on a layout anyhow.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

With an item that has lead based paint on it it's not necessary for you to lick it or put it in your mouth. Handling it is enough. Lead can be absorbed through the skin and whatever you handle afterward get the lead on it, including food. You may already be contaminated and not realize it. As for me, I've already had lead poisoning and it wasn't pretty.

[Walter Clot]

Boy are all you guys fast!!  I just heard it on the radio. I heard something about model cars.  I was wondering about Malibu, Reel, Fresh Cherries and Norscot which are all made in China.  I tried to find a mfg. list on a Google search, but couldn't.

I was going to ask the question, "What will you do about it?"  I hadn't considered that some may be out there licking their stuff.  I wan't looking for an answer from them!

 Thanks for any other info.

 

Walter in Columbia, TN 

[grayfox1119]

The owner of that factory that used lead paint even though he knew it was illegal in the U.S. and many other countries, did indeed commit suicide. The Chinese government was really p***** and he would have landed in jail for a long time or worse.

Now, for those of us who are old enough to remember the 50's and 60's, do you remember how many goods were made in Japan and sold here? And what did we call many of the items made in Japan at that time?

Then, Dr. Deming went to Japan and introduced Statistical Process Control, and Zero Defects, etc. etc. and the quality of products manufactured in Japan became second to NONE in the world, and they still are today.

Will China follow in those same footsteps? I am betting they will. China is just like America at the turn of the 20th century, we were changing from Agriculture to Manufacturing, just as China is today. Millions of Chinese are leaving their farms and coming to the cities for the lure of better living and more money, just as American did 100 years ago. The Chinese people are very hard working, and very intelligent people, but, just like any country, they have their cheats and slime balls who will try to get away with anything they can until caught.

As for model railroad products made in China, Atlas, Athearn and all the other companies, are keeping a close watch on the quality that they demand and will take whatever steps are necessary to correct any deviance. Will there be some faulty products that get through? You had better bet they will, but I also know that Atlas, Athearn and the rest of the big boys will make it right for their customers.

In the meantime, don't lick your locomotives, cars, or vehicles, don't even kiss them goodnight!! LOL Some of the MRR's on this forum are nutty enough without getting more lead in the brains.

[Greg H.]

It sort of makes me wonder, who goes around licking the tracks with the power on?

[sfrailfan]

[.

Retailers, are also finding out that manufactures are subcontracting without permission, and the subcontractors are not nessasarly using the same manufacturing process that was approved..

This subcontracting has been going on in china for years with other things especially the printing of album covers for CDs and the packaging thereof. With authentic packaging 'bootleg' or otherwise illegal CDs are sold easily due to the good looks.

I had thought the same thing about current safety, at least I'm not a child and prone to putting my trains in my mouth.

[simon1966]

Geez.....what is this world coming to.  You can see the warning label on the next Rivarossi release

"Do not lick this Big Boy, it may contain harmful chemicals"

[Greg H.]

So another big recall, by Mattel, for 9 million toys.  This is on top of some earlier recalls, including 2 years worth of wooden Thomas the Tank Engine.  Most of the recalls seem to be related to the use of lead in the finishes of the toys.

I wonder if the manufactures of model railway items are keeping tabs on their made in China products and can they assure us that they are safe.

With all the bad news around toys, toothpaste, wheat gluten etc from China, I am now very concerned about anything that is China made as far as safety goes.

 

Word is gettng around, it appears that China manufactures are cutting corners after production has already startred, and initial models ( and manufacturing processes ) have been approved, without the knowlage of the retailers - unless the retailers happen to catch something in the middle of the production run.

Retailers, are also finding out that manufactures are subcontracting without permission, and the subcontractors are not nessasarly using the same manufacturing process that was approved..