I guess my point, which I didn't exactly express clearly, is that economics today are not what they were yesteryear. We all specialize one way or another, and not all specialties offer what the economy feels is equivalent "value." Doctors and lawyers are valued more, hour for hour, than most other trades, except for perhaps plumbers. Still, you see my point. Someone who collects empty carts in the parking lot has no need, nor should he be paid for, anything more than the rudimentary cognitive skills needed to collect those carts. Not so with the university professor or accountant, or business manager with gross sales worth $20M and a staff of 22 to supervise. To get even closer to my point, though, many folks have to be paid minimum wage or somewhat higher in order for the exalted salaries for the professors and doctors to be possible! Otherwise, the value of each dollar falls if we all get paid the same amount for every hour worked. The Government can't just print a billion more dollar bills to pay everybody $20/hr. If it did, each dollar would only be able to buy what $0.40 can buy now. How's that for inflation!
So, some get less, some more. Too many more of those who want more can drive a business to insolvency. Or, the work that costs the most per hour can be farmed out to a place where it costs less so that the workers retained by the business can be given more out of the revenue in sales. It is an equation in the economy as well as in a Ma & Pa store. When the dollars coming in equal the dollars going out, someone ain't gettin' paid.
BRAKIE wrote:Greg, My wife was from Kentucky and while we lived in Kentucky,we raise 90% of our food including a hog and beef cow..In the fall we would harvest vegetables from the garden,we would have the cow and hog butchered in the fall as well as can vegetables such as green beans,corn and tomatoes..I would add deer meat to our freezer during deer season.That was pretty heady stuff from a guy that was born and raised in the city of Columbus,Ohio..In fact I had tons of stuff to learn.My in-laws had chickens so we had fresh eggs and I dare say fresh chicken on some Sundays.Theres a lot to country livin'.
Greg, My wife was from Kentucky and while we lived in Kentucky,we raise 90% of our food including a hog and beef cow..In the fall we would harvest vegetables from the garden,we would have the cow and hog butchered in the fall as well as can vegetables such as green beans,corn and tomatoes..I would add deer meat to our freezer during deer season.
That was pretty heady stuff from a guy that was born and raised in the city of Columbus,Ohio..In fact I had tons of stuff to learn.My in-laws had chickens so we had fresh eggs and I dare say fresh chicken on some Sundays.Theres a lot to country livin'.
You sound abit like me.
OTOH, I'm only 1 1/2 generations removed from the family farm, and grew up in the city, but, country life it's in my blood ( my mother was the youngest of her family and the first to be born at the hospital and not the family farmhouse ).
For the last 3 yrs I have been pushing the letter of the law of the local city code, by raising rabbits in the back yard - the local ordance patrol officer has seen them, but, just told me to make sure I keep the fly's down and the smell under control so their is no complaints - I just put all the cage liter right into the garden and call it good.
Any extra money I get from selling rabbits as pets ( or as pet food ) I get to spend on model trains, layout, or what ever else. I'm now trying to figure out how to work a few laying chickens into the mix, to free up a little more money for my hobbies.
GREG H: Things "will" change in China, they already are Greg, but the changes in Government will come slower. China will change when they have developed a "Middle Class". Once the people have a taste of "good living" they will never want to go back to the farm.
TOM: You are 100% correct, the unemployment figures that the Fed feeds us is BOGUS. Once people are no longer collecting unemployement because their time ran out to collect, where do they get counted? They don't. The Cost of Living figure is another joke on the American people by the Fed, it isn't 2.5% +/-, it is much more like 10%. The Fed doesn't factor in food and other cost like Taxes, Insurance premiums etc. well HELLO...we still need to pay this bill, and if the bill goes up each month/year, this is indeed a cost of living increase!!!
ALL: What heavy industrialized country came out of WW2 unscathed? That is why our standard of living is so high, and it is also why the 2nd and 3rd generation of children born after 1970 are having such a hard time, and why both parents need to work to have their two or three cars, and big screen TV's and kids in Karate school, and a vacation home, and a boat, etc, etc. and by the way, we don't want to wait until we are 50 like mom and dad to get these things, we want then NOW! Well duh, so does the rest of the people in the world, and they have a perfect right to want a better life.
Manufacturers WILL have their products made in whatever country they can get the cheapest labor...end of story. If you don't choose to believe that, then go back to school, take a night class in Economics 101, and enlighten yourself.
Can we compete in the US in the manuafacturing sector? Not on labor intensive items. We have been leading in brain power, but even that is slipping away as we choose to let the government do everything for us that we should be able to do ourselves...we pay for anything that we do not do ourselves. We are getting to the final stages of a Democracy in decline....we had better wake up.
tatans wrote: how about the hundreds and hundreds of above ground atomic bomb tests in Nevada in the 50's and 60's ? Naaahh, that couldn't be harmful, could it???
At least they learned early on that blowing millions of tons of radioactive dirt into the sky via underground tests was VERY BAD.
Buy Micro Trains good old american made =).
trainfreek92 wrote: Buy Micro Trains good old american made =).
Don't forget Athearn blue box. Well they were made in USA last time I looked (which was recently).
3railguy wrote: trainfreek92 wrote: Buy Micro Trains good old american made =). Don't forget Athearn blue box. Well they were made in USA last time I looked (which was recently).
And a lot of Bowser's stuff is made in the USA according to their ads.
Too bad I don't need a lot of what they make and Micro Trains is the wrong scale and what can I say about Blue Box?
tomikawaTT wrote:I, too, would like to see a lot more production in the United States, but there are facts that seems to be getting overlooked in this discussion:The unemployment rate in the United States is rather low.There are jobs here that are looking for workers.Most Americans today wouldn't put up with the conditions found in overseas/3rd world factories.So, if all the things presently made in China were to be made in USA, where would the workers come from - no matter whether it was an 800 person factory using pre-WWII technology or a 21st century automated, computer controlled, roboticised operation getting the same production out of 25 highly skilled technicians?Why, we'd have to import workers - aka immigrants - to take up the slack.If you think I'm going to open that bucket of worms, think again!Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I, too, would like to see a lot more production in the United States, but there are facts that seems to be getting overlooked in this discussion:
So, if all the things presently made in China were to be made in USA, where would the workers come from - no matter whether it was an 800 person factory using pre-WWII technology or a 21st century automated, computer controlled, roboticised operation getting the same production out of 25 highly skilled technicians?
Why, we'd have to import workers - aka immigrants - to take up the slack.
If you think I'm going to open that bucket of worms, think again!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Tomikawa and Selector published the tips of ice bergs that deserve further exploring.
The core issue on jobs and manufacturing, however, is that, yes, Tomikawa, there are not enough skilled workers to fill the jobs that are now open. And thanks to Selector, we realize that many people specialize and those who specialize in desireable skills earn more.
I believe the United States has an ample labor supply that is misused. Reading the Wall Street Journal, I understand that Chinese students are very good at memorization and regurgitation of technical knowledge, but lack creativity or the ability to adapt their knowledge to new applications.
Americans, on the whole, do the later rather well over time. But, American students (and I was one of them) are told to follow their heart and do "what makes you happy."
Following "the dream" without guidance doesn't pay the bills. And it doesn't leave high school or college students with the skill sets they need to earn a living. Math needs to be taught more intensively.
I couldn't have failed more miserably in high school triginometry and still pass, but I should have stuck to it or gotten a kick in the pants from someone who knew better -- and not just admonitions from the belching, gold-chain wearing Vietnam War draft dodger of a math teacher I had.
Now, I am struggling at calculus and choking down accounting skills to someday become an accountant, because my BA in political science keeps me below the poverty level.
The grand point, is that manufacturing can and should return, in part, to the United States when we have enough technically skilled workers to accomodate it. I believe it is doable and soon, say 5 to 10 years.
As an aside, I also happen to agree with NAFTA and WTO but with reciprocity.
If wealthy Chinese businessmen have the ability to come to my home town and buy a house on the lake or build a subdivision in my hometown, I should have the exact rights in China. Same goes for Mexico ... Or, until I have those rights, they should be denied to foreigners in the U.S. (sorry to the folks from Australia ... I don't want you to buy any more parking ramps or U.S. Interstates until I open an exotic fish farm on the Barrier Reef.)
It's all about free movement of CAPITAL, GOODS, SERVICES and LABOR. Not just a couple of these when someone feels like it.
I've said enough.
Ignatius
Speaking of Athearn, I would assume much of what they have made (maybe most or all) is made in China. I've purchased quite abit of Athearn Genesis and RTR stuff and I'm wondering has Athearn had any comment regarding lead paint? I'd hate to think there would be a recall on any of this stuff, but maybe we could at least be aware of the situation.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
grayfox1119 wrote: The owner of that factory that used lead paint even though he knew it was illegal in the U.S. and many other countries, did indeed commit suicide. The Chinese government was really p***** and he would have landed in jail for a long time or worse. Now, for those of us who are old enough to remember the 50's and 60's, do you remember how many goods were made in Japan and sold here? And what did we call many of the items made in Japan at that time?Then, Dr. Deming went to Japan and introduced Statistical Process Control, and Zero Defects, etc. etc. and the quality of products manufactured in Japan became second to NONE in the world, and they still are today. Will China follow in those same footsteps? I am betting they will. China is just like America at the turn of the 20th century, we were changing from Agriculture to Manufacturing, just as China is today. Millions of Chinese are leaving their farms and coming to the cities for the lure of better living and more money, just as American did 100 years ago. The Chinese people are very hard working, and very intelligent people, but, just like any country, they have their cheats and slime balls who will try to get away with anything they can until caught.As for model railroad products made in China, Atlas, Athearn and all the other companies, are keeping a close watch on the quality that they demand and will take whatever steps are necessary to correct any deviance. Will there be some faulty products that get through? You had better bet they will, but I also know that Atlas, Athearn and the rest of the big boys will make it right for their customers.In the meantime, don't lick your locomotives, cars, or vehicles, don't even kiss them goodnight!! LOL Some of the MRR's on this forum are nutty enough without getting more lead in the brains.
The owner of that factory that used lead paint even though he knew it was illegal in the U.S. and many other countries, did indeed commit suicide. The Chinese government was really p***** and he would have landed in jail for a long time or worse.
Now, for those of us who are old enough to remember the 50's and 60's, do you remember how many goods were made in Japan and sold here? And what did we call many of the items made in Japan at that time?
Then, Dr. Deming went to Japan and introduced Statistical Process Control, and Zero Defects, etc. etc. and the quality of products manufactured in Japan became second to NONE in the world, and they still are today.
Will China follow in those same footsteps? I am betting they will. China is just like America at the turn of the 20th century, we were changing from Agriculture to Manufacturing, just as China is today. Millions of Chinese are leaving their farms and coming to the cities for the lure of better living and more money, just as American did 100 years ago. The Chinese people are very hard working, and very intelligent people, but, just like any country, they have their cheats and slime balls who will try to get away with anything they can until caught.
As for model railroad products made in China, Atlas, Athearn and all the other companies, are keeping a close watch on the quality that they demand and will take whatever steps are necessary to correct any deviance. Will there be some faulty products that get through? You had better bet they will, but I also know that Atlas, Athearn and the rest of the big boys will make it right for their customers.
In the meantime, don't lick your locomotives, cars, or vehicles, don't even kiss them goodnight!! LOL Some of the MRR's on this forum are nutty enough without getting more lead in the brains.
Greg H. wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Greg,I am not not saying they/we are not working harder for things they/we want..They/we are paying more for our status symbols.You know the van,SUV,motorcycles,$175,000 home,boat,model trains and other adult toys.So,that wide vision TV comes from Japan like our computers,stereos etc.Its a matter of finding the best deals for our toys and if it comes from China,Japan or ten buck two so be it..After all our van,SUV motorcycles,little Johnnies $450.00 bicycle,little Susie's play pretties and apparel and other needful things comes first because of our status symbol in keeping up with the Jones and Smiths..No wonder it takes both parents working jobs and shopping at the big box stores just to stay even..I still disagree.Just to have the same things that our parents had, and give our kids the same things that we had when we were kids, it's costing more than it did back then.I currently live in the house my folks bought after my dad retired from the military, and with bonuses the wife makes just a little more per month than dad did while he was in, we have only 2 kids while I grew up in a family of 6, and we are having a diffacut time of it just because the cost of living is so much higher.I have found old utility bills, that show that I'm paying 3 to 3 1/2 times as much for a little less electricity & water, as my parents did, when they owned the same house. My parents never had to worry about a storm water tax - I do. My parents never had to worry about a scaled water bill ( a higher price for each cu/ft of water used beyond a certian amount ) - I do. My parents didn't see a restructering of the tax code that changed the way the property taxes were caculated so they saw the property tax recaculated every 7 years, I see it recaculated every 2-3 years, with a bigger alowable increase. Do I worry about keeping up with the Jones's and the Smiths? No way, I have my own problems, and could care less about hireing lawn care service to come in twice a week - I mow 1 1/2 - 2 weeks and if the neighbors don't like it tough. Forget about keeping up with the Jones's and the Smiths - even for just basic services, the generation of today has to work harder to get as far as their parents or grand parents did at the same stage of their lives.
BRAKIE wrote: Greg,I am not not saying they/we are not working harder for things they/we want..They/we are paying more for our status symbols.You know the van,SUV,motorcycles,$175,000 home,boat,model trains and other adult toys.So,that wide vision TV comes from Japan like our computers,stereos etc.Its a matter of finding the best deals for our toys and if it comes from China,Japan or ten buck two so be it..After all our van,SUV motorcycles,little Johnnies $450.00 bicycle,little Susie's play pretties and apparel and other needful things comes first because of our status symbol in keeping up with the Jones and Smiths..No wonder it takes both parents working jobs and shopping at the big box stores just to stay even..
Greg,I am not not saying they/we are not working harder for things they/we want..They/we are paying more for our status symbols.You know the van,SUV,motorcycles,$175,000 home,boat,model trains and other adult toys.So,that wide vision TV comes from Japan like our computers,stereos etc.Its a matter of finding the best deals for our toys and if it comes from China,Japan or ten buck two so be it..After all our van,SUV motorcycles,little Johnnies $450.00 bicycle,little Susie's play pretties and apparel and other needful things comes first because of our status symbol in keeping up with the Jones and Smiths..
No wonder it takes both parents working jobs and shopping at the big box stores just to stay even..
I still disagree.
Just to have the same things that our parents had, and give our kids the same things that we had when we were kids, it's costing more than it did back then.
I currently live in the house my folks bought after my dad retired from the military, and with bonuses the wife makes just a little more per month than dad did while he was in, we have only 2 kids while I grew up in a family of 6, and we are having a diffacut time of it just because the cost of living is so much higher.
I have found old utility bills, that show that I'm paying 3 to 3 1/2 times as much for a little less electricity & water, as my parents did, when they owned the same house.
My parents never had to worry about a storm water tax - I do. My parents never had to worry about a scaled water bill ( a higher price for each cu/ft of water used beyond a certian amount ) - I do. My parents didn't see a restructering of the tax code that changed the way the property taxes were caculated so they saw the property tax recaculated every 7 years, I see it recaculated every 2-3 years, with a bigger alowable increase.
Do I worry about keeping up with the Jones's and the Smiths? No way, I have my own problems, and could care less about hireing lawn care service to come in twice a week - I mow 1 1/2 - 2 weeks and if the neighbors don't like it tough.
Forget about keeping up with the Jones's and the Smiths - even for just basic services, the generation of today has to work harder to get as far as their parents or grand parents did at the same stage of their lives.
As far as property taxs, I live in California and we have a prop. 13 that sets tne property tax at 1% of the buying price with a 1-2% increase a year (almost all do 1%). much better than in maryland were one year they decided to double the property tax in one year.
I was still living in CA when Prop 13 passed! That was a long time ago! LOL
I do wish NY state had a prop 13 because the property taxes here are driving people out of the state. On my former home worth about 90-100k they are between 4.5 and 5k annually. Thats closer to 5%!!!
tatans wrote:Just read where you would have to eat or inhale 350 toys to detect the slightest danger from these toys, how about the hundreds and hundreds of above ground atomic bomb tests in Nevada in the 50's and 60's ? Naaahh, that couldn't be harmful, could it???
Most model railroad products are not classified as toys and therefore must meet a different set of standards. However, I know of at least one Chinese model manufacturer that is already in the process of getting lead-free certifications from all their paint suppliers. This is even though its scale models are classified by ASTM standards for ages 14-plus. Its supplier specifications call for lead-free paint because it also supplies components for toys that are classified for children 8-plus.
I would be looking for more Chinese companies to do the same. For one thing, there will be fierce competition for the business that formerly went to Lee Der (that's the company whose owner committed suicide) and I am sure Mattel will have very strict standards and conduct lots of unannounced inspections on any new vendors. These recalls will cost Mattel millions of dollars, not just in refunds, etc., but in lost business. They could also face review of some of their licenses (though I doubt they will actually lose any) because some of the properties, like Dora the Explorer, are very sensitive to stuff like this.
Truth be told, even if companies wanted to bring production back to the U.S., there would be problems because American tooling companies generally do not want scale model projects; they are too precise. A friend of mine developed some structure kits a few years ago and then spent a year trying to find someone who could make the tooling. I don't think there would be a problem with other areas; it would probably be fairly easy to find women who could handle fine assembly (not being sexist; on average, women are better at it than men). This isn't to say it couldn't be done, it would just take some time. And assembled models would be more expensive because they have to be hand-assembled; there is almost no machinery involved in any of the production steps after molding, paint and print. How much of a price difference I couldn't say because even in China, it requires more skilled assemblers and they are paid higher wages and receive housing because their services are in demand. Besides, we shouldnn't forget that American workers are still some of the most productive in the world.
Most model railroad products are not classified as toys and therefore must meet a different set of standards.
So if Mattel had problems, Athearn stuff is even more likely to have lead paint based on the above assumptions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm keeping my Athearn RTR stuff and I'm not going to peel any of the paint off and eat it!
riogrande5761 wrote: So if Mattel had problems, Athearn stuff is even more likely to have lead paint based on the above assumptions.
Not at all. In the U.S. lead-based paint has been banned for most applications for years and those products that can legally contain lead must have clear warnings about the lead content. However, this ban does not extend to other countries and it falls on the company importing and marketing the goods, such as Athearn, is responsible for compliance. Athearn, in turn, has to look to its OEMs to ensure the products they use in manufacture are safe and meet legal requirementsand they have to obtain certification from their suppliers.
If everyone is playing by the rules, there's no problem. The certifications are on file and can be displayed upon request.
By the way, it's unlikely that Zhang Shuhong, the president of Lee-Der Industrial, would have been executed or even received much of a prison sentence, if any. Zheng Xiaoyu, the Chinese official who was executed, was convicted of taking bribes of nearly a million dollars to approve several drugs he knew were bad, including one that killed ten people. However, Zhang was probably ruined financially and had no prospects of being able to stay in business. It's likely this is what caused him to kill himself.
As long as the Chinese don't cash in on all the American debt they own, we should be able to continue our lifestyles and import all we desire. If the Saudis continue to ship us oil, of course.
The financial capitals of the world are shifting to Hong Kong and Dubai. Wonder why that is.
grayfox1119 wrote:In the meantime, don't lick your locomotives, cars, or vehicles, don't even kiss them goodnight!!
In the meantime, don't lick your locomotives, cars, or vehicles, don't even kiss them goodnight!!
Not to worry. I stopped doing that after I showed up at work with a grab iron between my teeth. Boy, was my face red.
I think the primary concern is the lead content of the toys, since children are more apt to put things in their mouths, and more susceptible to its effects. The lead content of model railroad items is the least of my concerns. Heck, the locos I had as a kid had giant lead weights in them, and I'm sure I had toys with lead-based paint, and yet I turned out perfectly...
On second thought, maybe we should be afraid.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
SteamFreak wrote: grayfox1119 wrote:In the meantime, don't lick your locomotives, cars, or vehicles, don't even kiss them goodnight!!Not to worry. I stopped doing that after I showed up at work with a grab iron between my teeth. Boy, was my face red. I think the primary concern is the lead content of the toys, since children are more apt to put things in their mouths, and more susceptible to its effects. The lead content of model railroad items are the least of my concerns. Heck, the locos I had as a kid had giant lead weights in them, and I'm sure I had toys with lead-based paint, and yet I turned out perfectly... On second thought, maybe we should be afraid.
I think the primary concern is the lead content of the toys, since children are more apt to put things in their mouths, and more susceptible to its effects. The lead content of model railroad items are the least of my concerns. Heck, the locos I had as a kid had giant lead weights in them, and I'm sure I had toys with lead-based paint, and yet I turned out perfectly...
Of course I just wonder if the lead thing is just the tip of the iceberg sort of idea, who knows what else may be coming at us?
Teditor wrote:I was just sucking away on one of my Z scale Micro-Trains boxcars and happened to notice the warning about a chemical being in the product that can cause cancer and birth defects, along with other reproductive harm, but its OK, I don't live in California, just sunburnt Australia, melanoma's are much safer.I think the same warning is prevalent on Kato products, made in the USA, made in Japan, maybe all the plastic comes from China anyway.Please. Please, don't recall all my Kato and Micro-Trains in a state of panic.Does this mean that my State Series of Micro-Trains has an environmentaly safe California Car?Teditor
I was just sucking away on one of my Z scale Micro-Trains boxcars and happened to notice the warning about a chemical being in the product that can cause cancer and birth defects, along with other reproductive harm, but its OK, I don't live in California, just sunburnt Australia, melanoma's are much safer.
I think the same warning is prevalent on Kato products, made in the USA, made in Japan, maybe all the plastic comes from China anyway.
Please. Please, don't recall all my Kato and Micro-Trains in a state of panic.
Does this mean that my State Series of Micro-Trains has an environmentaly safe California Car?
Teditor
Everyone seems to have conveniently passed over my comments, I worked in the Asbestos Industry for nine years hand making race car disc brake pads, I think a little lead is the least of my worries, think back on a lot of things you have done by choice. It's only legislation that makes us worry now.
It appears manufacturers are taking notice. Look at the big yellow words on the top, you can't miss it.
http://precisioncraftmodels.com/store/index.cfm
Wonder what this will do?
Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his fellow North American leaders wrapped up their summit in Montebello, Que., on Tuesday with an agreement to block the import of unsafe goods.
The move follows a spate of safety scares linked to the "Made in China" label worldwide. Unsafe food additives, toothpaste and toys from China have all been in the international spotlight in recent months.
Harper said the leaders agreed to strengthen protections for North American consumers, including a crackdown on "non-secure products entering our nations, particularly those going to our children."
The Canadian prime minister, U.S. President George W. Bush and Mexican President Felipe Calderon also agreed to ensure that security measures imposed in the future do not hurt trade between the countries.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
Sadly, we joke about not putting our trains in our mouths, but given the litigious society we live in, have you checked out the warnings on products lately?
On gas pumps:
At fast food restaurants: coffee is hot and may cause burns. This one after a woman put a cup of coffee between her legs while driving. Not to mention suing the same fast food restaurant for making a customer fat (Dude, I got news for you 3 Quarter-Pounders at a time will do that to you.
Just thinking about the chemicals we use in our hobby, there's plenty of potential danger there. But, we don't leave them lying around for the little ones to get into.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
loathar wrote:They recalled a bunch of Sponge Bob stuff today for the same reason.
And more Thomas as well as Curious George. And WalMart US is recalling a bunch of dog treats that have chemiclas in them.