For those who have read Ancient history, the Fall of the Roman Empire, the water pipes were made of lead, and many of the Romans who drank of that water, over time became nut cases, like Nero and many others. Lead accumulates in the brain and causes all sorts of nasty neurological disorders.
I wonder if that explains the behavior of some of the folks who get out of line on this forum? Naaaaaaaaaaa.
steamrail43 wrote:A reminder of the old days when kids used to cut their fingers on the sharp edges of tin plate toys made in Japan.
I was one of them kids so I have to jump in here with my two cents worth. Before I start, keep in mind I do believe in precautions to do things safely. However I also believe that there is also a lot of over reaction to things also. By todays beliefs and standards I should not have made it past the age of 15. I grew up on a farm where everything was painted with lead base paint, got a B-B gun at age 10, a 22 rifle at age 12, shot gun and 30-30 rifle at age 14. Started fishing with lead sinkers at age 6, drank milk straight from the cows, breathed DDT from all the crop dusters, sprayed the cows and the barn with something that smelled like kerosene for flies, played with those tin toys and whistles from cacker jacks and worst of all breathed that smoke from my Lionel train. With all the news of anti-freeze tainted tooth paste and lead based painted toys and products comeing out of China I started checking the origin of our tooth paste. Guess what. All the toothe paste I checked, the origin was not listed. Only that it was distributed by ABC or XYZ in Timbucktoo, NJ. At least we do know where or models are coming from, and no I'm not worried that they may have lead based paint on them. On the other hand I do worry about young kids teething on these toys and products and believe in these recalls. Is there a ral danger here. Somewhat, but I don't believe its as bad as some make it out to be, but then why take chances. Ken
Eriediamond wrote: steamrail43 wrote:A reminder of the old days when kids used to cut their fingers on the sharp edges of tin plate toys made in Japan.I was one of them kids so I have to jump in here with my two cents worth. Before I start, keep in mind I do believe in precautions to do things safely. However I also believe that there is also a lot of over reaction to things also. By todays beliefs and standards I should not have made it past the age of 15. I grew up on a farm where everything was painted with lead base paint, got a B-B gun at age 10, a 22 rifle at age 12, shot gun and 30-30 rifle at age 14. Started fishing with lead sinkers at age 6, drank milk straight from the cows, breathed DDT from all the crop dusters, sprayed the cows and the barn with something that smelled like kerosene for flies, played with those tin toys and whistles from cacker jacks and worst of all breathed that smoke from my Lionel train. With all the news of anti-freeze tainted tooth paste and lead based painted toys and products comeing out of China I started checking the origin of our tooth paste. Guess what. All the toothe paste I checked, the origin was not listed. Only that it was distributed by ABC or XYZ in Timbucktoo, NJ. At least we do know where or models are coming from, and no I'm not worried that they may have lead based paint on them. On the other hand I do worry about young kids teething on these toys and products and believe in these recalls. Is there a ral danger here. Somewhat, but I don't believe its as bad as some make it out to be, but then why take chances. Ken
I agree about the child safety element, no doubt about it Lead does effect the brain, just wondering if it has a worse effect on kids than playing with the XBox or PS2 hour after hour, I have a Saturday job selling these games to grownups and kids, just love the parents that let thier 7 year olds play 15+ games with blood and gutts, no siree I think folks can grow up crazy without sucking lead.
I wish that everything could be made in the US. I would pay an extra 10-20% for products built here if it meant that it was not communist junk. I have spent far to much time fixing things messed up overseas.
I am concerned about the contamintation coming out of china in the toy market, foods, and other products. I have been trying to find a way to stay away from imports for many yers and not been all that successful. Perhaps with the recent issues, I will revisit this quest. I hope that hobby manufacturers are listening.
Ummm--fellows--
Wash your hands and stop chewing on your models. Okay?
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
There's more than meets the eye in every situation, including this.
1.) For starters, there is the currency issue between China and the US. Yes, the commies have agreed to let the Yuan inflate marginally, but no more than a few percentage points per quarter. That's a pitance to the Yuan's real value. If the Chinese were to float their currency on global markets like a big boy, you would see something closer (no, I don't mean equal) to parity between US and Chinese manufacturers.
2.) Are the Chinese running the most efficienty production model possible, or the easiest? It's possible that the Chinese have MBAs and manufacturing engineers designing their plants for maximum efficiency, but I would stake good money on it that they're not. In the U.S. many small-sized companies, even family owned companies, could produce high-quality goods for less using modern manufacturing methods and computer technology. Yes, it would still be more expensive than China, but it would be less expensive than throwing a few hundred of your fellow Americans into an older-style assembly line and watching the process of Bachmann locos come off like so many Model T's.
The process I'm speaking of works exceptionally well with wooden chairs, made to spec. close to my home town. Guys who used to push button to produce widgets now know C++ and how to make a 5,000 Horsepower razor blade make a $120 chair ... up to 500 a day.
3.) I think there are some who underestimate the branding Made In The USA offers for the niche market. True, some people will want what they want as cheap as they can get it. That's why we have Wal-Mart.
Hobbieists (SP?) do like choice, and variety and the ability to pay more for what they want. Bachmann Spectrum is a great example. Bachmann is trying to fill the need for trains in the lower-middle-range -- pretty good detail, not bad price. That could be filled in by some domestic production. Domestic manufacturers may not be so good, however, at mass-producing other cheaper versions... Then again, how many Roundhouse, Athearn and MDC kits do we have still around, still in good condition and with a ancient price tag under $5?
I think there's a possibility for anything. We just have to think.
Ignatius
Didn't intend to get overtly political, but honestly, WTO stinks. And NAFTA ain't far behind. Well, at least NAFTA has solved the illegal immigration problem. Exporting manufacturing jobs so that they can make stuff with cheap, exploited labor so that we can buy tons of stuff cheaply and get in debt so that the corporations can profit on the whole cycle. I don't see where it benefits the nation, although it benefits individuals.
I have made comments about Wal-Mart on this forum that have been deleted, so I will keep this short....or not.
If you understand economics, you know that money that stays in a society (passes between consumers/businesses many times before leaving) has a compound effect.
So manufacturing/product costs CAN be higher for US products due to the effect of those workers spending their pay on MORE American produced goods/services. This increases the overall buying power of the society, which compounds itself.
We just don't get it as a society, everyone is waving flags around proclaiming they are a better patriot than 'so and so OR that group" but they run off to Wally-World to save 0.03 on toilet paper. And people wonder why all our factories are closing/closed/run down.
I am a capitalist/business owner and respect the ‘free market', and yes I have bought good manufactured overseas, but I try not to when I have a choice.
Companies like Wal-Mart ACTIVELY push vendors to use Chinese Manufacturing, basically telling them they won't do business with them otherwise. That is bad for America, its future and my child's future. They get no business from me.
But what really gets me is those in power (2 party system) allow currency pegging/manipulation, product dumping (to gain market share/destroy competition) by China. All the while China enjoys a "Most favored Nation" status with the US. Its hypocrisy.
They could care less about you, me, our children. And it shows.
I could go on for hours, but it won't matter, for tomorrow those who only look 6 inches in front of their face will do what they did yesterday.
Me? I need to finish my American Made Tangent PS4740 so I can sell it on eBay and buy more good produced here.
I, too, would like to see a lot more production in the United States, but there are facts that seems to be getting overlooked in this discussion:
So, if all the things presently made in China were to be made in USA, where would the workers come from - no matter whether it was an 800 person factory using pre-WWII technology or a 21st century automated, computer controlled, roboticised operation getting the same production out of 25 highly skilled technicians?
Why, we'd have to import workers - aka immigrants - to take up the slack.
If you think I'm going to open that bucket of worms, think again!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Chuck said: Most Americans today wouldn't put up with the conditions found in overseas/3rd world factories.
Absolutely! Americans want a comfortable living as well from their employer.Nobody can live comfortably on minimum wage @ 5.85 /hr thats why respectable employers pay their employees far above the minimum wage with benefits while sweat shops pay minimum wage with poor working conditions and no employee benefits and these companies suffer a high turnover in employees.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
There's only one reason we buy Chinese goods, and it isn't because we like the Chinese or think they make better stuff than we do.
It's because, despite the "Buy American" campaigns, when it comes down to paying at the register, Americans will choose the less expensive product more often than not.
It's all well and good to say you'd pay more for a loco made in America (and maybe you would), but an identical one made overseas and priced lower will sell faster.
It is the same reason that people complain about Wal-Mart's business practices and all the rest, but their parking lots are still packed.
I was just sucking away on one of my Z scale Micro-Trains boxcars and happened to notice the warning about a chemical being in the product that can cause cancer and birth defects, along with other reproductive harm, but its OK, I don't live in California, just sunburnt Australia, melanoma's are much safer.
I think the same warning is prevalent on Kato products, made in the USA, made in Japan, maybe all the plastic comes from China anyway.
Please. Please, don't recall all my Kato and Micro-Trains in a state of panic.
Does this mean that my State Series of Micro-Trains has an environmentaly safe California Car?
Teditor
grayfox1119 wrote: Will China follow in those same footsteps? I am betting they will. China is just like America at the turn of the 20th century, we were changing from Agriculture to Manufacturing, just as China is today. Millions of Chinese are leaving their farms and coming to the cities for the lure of better living and more money, just as American did 100 years ago. The Chinese people are very hard working, and very intelligent people, but, just like any country, they have their cheats and slime balls who will try to get away with anything they can until caught.
Will China follow in those same footsteps? I am betting they will. China is just like America at the turn of the 20th century, we were changing from Agriculture to Manufacturing, just as China is today. Millions of Chinese are leaving their farms and coming to the cities for the lure of better living and more money, just as American did 100 years ago. The Chinese people are very hard working, and very intelligent people, but, just like any country, they have their cheats and slime balls who will try to get away with anything they can until caught.
I don't think they will change, until there is a change in the form of goverment. Sure, the chinese are moving from a rural society to an urban one, but that is true of alot of nations, but a big differance is the fact that the Goverment in China is still the biggest stock holder in most factories, and get's a fairly large slice of the pie - in fact in way to many cases they get the entire pie.
Remember the big fuss a few years ago about the surplus Chinese SKS rifles that were not surplus? The Chinese Goverment was behind that - they wholy own the armories that made to many that then ended up being sold on the American market.
Would the manager of the factory had gone to jail? Sure, but, it would be because he made the Goverment look bad to another nation, and the Chinese Goverment can't stand that - not because of anything else he did wrong.
=================================================================
Very true and I highly suspect a lot of those that are complaining about Wal-Mart still shops there.Of course Target,Meijers and other big box stores isn't any better.Even Sears isn't what it once was. The younger Americans(starting with the baby boomers) has always wanted the most for less money..We saw that with the imports from Japan,Taiwan,Hong Kong etc.Now fast forward to today and add the high cost of living that accompanies our living style and that holds still holds true.
Of course our parents and Grandparents would scorn imports and would buy American made products.They also saw imports as American job stealers.
BRAKIE wrote: Chuck said: Most Americans today wouldn't put up with the conditions found in overseas/3rd world factories.Absolutely! Americans want a comfortable living as well from their employer.Nobody can live comfortably on minimum wage @ 5.85 /hr thats why respectable employers pay their employees far above the minimum wage with benefits while sweat shops pay minimum wage with poor working conditions and no employee benefits and these companies suffer a high turnover in employees.
You have touched on something that has bothered me for some time.
The myth of minimum wage.
Has anyone else noticed that when ever minimum wage goes up, the local cost of living goes up, and with in 3-4 months of the minium wage increase, it was as if there was no increase at all?
Greg H. wrote: You have touched on something that has bothered me for some time. The myth of minimum wage.Has anyone else noticed that when ever minimum wage goes up, the local cost of living goes up, and with in 3-4 months of the minium wage increase, it was as if there was no increase at all?
Nope. It doesn't happen. It can't happen.
Can it? Does it?
Greg H. wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Chuck said: Most Americans today wouldn't put up with the conditions found in overseas/3rd world factories.Absolutely! Americans want a comfortable living as well from their employer.Nobody can live comfortably on minimum wage @ 5.85 /hr thats why respectable employers pay their employees far above the minimum wage with benefits while sweat shops pay minimum wage with poor working conditions and no employee benefits and these companies suffer a high turnover in employees.You have touched on something that has bothered me for some time. The myth of minimum wage.Has anyone else noticed that when ever minimum wage goes up, the local cost of living goes up, and with in 3-4 months of the minium wage increase, it was as if there was no increase at all?
With all their wisdom our government has changed the workplace of Australia, the system is signing workplace agreements, no sick pay, no paid holiday pay, no penalty rates, work weekends at the same rate as weekdays etc etc, we have been told we need to change the system to compete with Asia, I would like to know at what?, most of our manufacturing has gone offshore, we are now pretty much a Banana Republic, many employed in the hospitality trade to cater for the Asian workers when they come here for a 7 day holiday.
Same set up as the USA, pay rises vanish like a puff of smoke, food costs soar, houses are to expensive for people to buy, interest rates rising and people losing their homes etc etc, only a matter of time and we will have our own sweat shops and folks working for a bowl of rice, life the way we had it is becoming a thing of the past.
BRAKIE wrote:The younger Americans (starting with the baby boomers) has always wanted the most for less money..We saw that with the imports from Japan,Taiwan,Hong Kong etc.Now fast forward to today and add the high cost of living that accompanies our living style and that holds still holds true.
The younger Americans (starting with the baby boomers) has always wanted the most for less money..We saw that with the imports from Japan,Taiwan,Hong Kong etc.Now fast forward to today and add the high cost of living that accompanies our living style and that holds still holds true.
I'll disagree with you there.
Study after study has shown that the younger generation has had to work harder to have the same standard of living as their parents.
That's why many times both parents have to work, rather than just one. It used to be that a single wage earner, was able to pay for the home, the car, and the utilities. I have seen the utilitiy bill go up 100% in the last 6 yrs with the same home ( and that's with a newer more efficent furnace and not using AC ) - I started driving in the late 80's when fuel was perhaps a $1.50/gal, and now that has doubled as well ( I remember when my parents were complaining when fuel went over $1.00 ).
Another sign, of this, is the fact that in some places in the US, someone can earn $50,000 a year and still be homeless, because even the monthy cost of an apartment and the cost of living is so high, yet in 1963, the cost of an average home was around $20,000.
Look at it from a different dirrection. In 2006, law was signed that mandated a switch to digital TV broadcasting, buy 2009. This law adds a minimum of $60 to each television set sold in the US, to pay for the tuner to be able pick up the digital broad cast signals.
Don't forget, that 3 generations ago, things like FICA and Social Security were not being taken out of paychecks either.
But it might keep those unwanted hands off...
with the sign below..
Jarrell
jacon12 wrote: But it might keep those unwanted hands off... with the sign below..Jarrell
Greg,I am not not saying they/we are not working harder for things they/we want..They/we are paying more for our status symbols.You know the van,SUV,motorcycles,$175,000 home,boat,model trains and other adult toys.So,that wide vision TV comes from Japan like our computers,stereos etc.Its a matter of finding the best deals for our toys and if it comes from China,Japan or ten buck two so be it..After all our van,SUV motorcycles,little Johnnies $450.00 bicycle,little Susie's play pretties and apparel and other needful things comes first because of our status symbol in keeping up with the Jones and Smiths..
No wonder it takes both parents working jobs and shopping at the big box stores just to stay even..
tomikawaTT wrote: The unemployment rate in the United States is rather low.
Hate to disagree with you here but the # the Fed advertises(around 4.5%) is total B.S.! That # only includes 1st time unemployment filers. It excludes second or third or all repeat filers that have lost their jobs more than one time. It also excludes people who's unemployment benefits have run out even though they are still unemployed and small business owners that have folded because of unfair competition from people using illegal labor or monster companies selling cheap Chinese crap. The true unemployment figure is about three times what the Federal and state governments advertise. The town I live in advertises 9.7% unemployment. Multiply that by 3 and you'll see why I'm not a very happy camper these days and strongly disagree with your statement.
There are some lucky cities where your statement applies but it can NOT be used as a blanket statement for the whole U.S.
OK, sorry to bring this back the original subject, but the possibility of lead paint being used on locos & rolling stock just reinforces the need to weather them. Assuming your weathering is sealed with a clear coat product (such as Dullcote), any lead paint will be encapsulated. Now you have a safe item that looks nice too...
BRAKIE wrote: Greg,I am not not saying they/we are not working harder for things they/we want..They/we are paying more for our status symbols.You know the van,SUV,motorcycles,$175,000 home,boat,model trains and other adult toys.So,that wide vision TV comes from Japan like our computers,stereos etc.Its a matter of finding the best deals for our toys and if it comes from China,Japan or ten buck two so be it..After all our van,SUV motorcycles,little Johnnies $450.00 bicycle,little Susie's play pretties and apparel and other needful things comes first because of our status symbol in keeping up with the Jones and Smiths..No wonder it takes both parents working jobs and shopping at the big box stores just to stay even..
I still disagree.
Just to have the same things that our parents had, and give our kids the same things that we had when we were kids, it's costing more than it did back then.
I currently live in the house my folks bought after my dad retired from the military, and with bonuses the wife makes just a little more per month than dad did while he was in, we have only 2 kids while I grew up in a family of 6, and we are having a diffacut time of it just because the cost of living is so much higher.
I have found old utility bills, that show that I'm paying 3 to 3 1/2 times as much for a little less electricity & water, as my parents did, when they owned the same house.
My parents never had to worry about a storm water tax - I do. My parents never had to worry about a scaled water bill ( a higher price for each cu/ft of water used beyond a certian amount ) - I do. My parents didn't see a restructering of the tax code that changed the way the property taxes were caculated so they saw the property tax recaculated every 7 years, I see it recaculated every 2-3 years, with a bigger alowable increase.
Do I worry about keeping up with the Jones's and the Smiths? No way, I have my own problems, and could care less about hireing lawn care service to come in twice a week - I mow 1 1/2 - 2 weeks and if the neighbors don't like it tough.
Forget about keeping up with the Jones's and the Smiths - even for just basic services, the generation of today has to work harder to get as far as their parents or grand parents did at the same stage of their lives.
Over a longer timespan, our way of living has changed from growers/makers/tinkerers/repairers to consumerism. One-hundred and fifty years ago, about the only things we bought were the occasional tool and textiles, and livestock. We grew or hewed anthing else we felt we wanted....or needed.
Now we need to make money to buy manufacturered just-about-anything-we-use, but also things that had no place or use in our homes 150 years back. They had no radios, TVs, cars, boats, toy trains..... Imagine being in 1860 and asking wifey if she wanted to hit the local Wal-Mart so that you could see if there were new 1/87 Matchbox cars that you could use on your electric railway. This passtime is a way of life now. How many of us grow our own food seasonally? How many of us chop wood and keep a fire going to heat the home 24/7 for five months of the year? How many of us need to feed and groom horses, and then hitch them to a plow or water pump?
So, we need money to buy things, and in N. America, we buy things that we don't need. I may get a lot of flak over this, but I believe it is true. We demand to be able to buy, and there is no shortage of organizations willing to provide it, providing they can make a good living from the revenues...all the way down the line from contractor/specifior to distributor to retailer. Heck, we even look to make money to get ahead on ebay.
selector wrote: Over a longer timespan, our way of living has changed from growers/makers/tinkerers/repairers to consumerism. One-hundred and fifty years ago, about the only things we bought were the occasional tool and textiles, and livestock. We grew or hewed anthing else we felt we wanted....or needed.
Knowing how to repair what you had is not nessasarly a bad thing - I wish I was better at it, but, while I may have the wish, actualy having the skill is something else, OTOH, I prefer to have stuff built well and need few repairs - even if I have to take it in - rather than throw it away and buy another - because it was made so cheeply in the first place.
SNIP How many of us chop wood and keep a fire going to heat the home 24/7 for five months of the year? How many of us need to feed and groom horses, and then hitch them to a plow or water pump?
SNIP
How many of us chop wood and keep a fire going to heat the home 24/7 for five months of the year? How many of us need to feed and groom horses, and then hitch them to a plow or water pump?
While I don't need it 24/7, I do collect and process wood in the summer for use durring the worst parts of winter to help cut the utility bills.
It's not just that we demand to buy, it's just that the skills needed to do otherwise are not nessasarly taught anymore, and in some cases we are ridaculed if we do not and to some extent we are even forced ( by law and other means ) to buy what we want or just flat out need.
There are plenty of people that would rather have a well, but, are forced to drink city water, lawn care is another - if you want to have wild flowers instead of grass, better live outside of city limits - if you are to ill for awile to take care of your lawn better have some understanding friend do it for you or the city will hire someone to do it, and then put a lean on your home until you pay them back.
Want a hambuger? You must buy your beef, as more than likly your not alowed to raise your own. Want an eggs for breakfast? Again you must buy them from the market. Why? Because someone decieded that the average person is incabable of raising animals in a small setting ( never mind what big time producers are doing when the space per animal may be measuerd in sq inches ) More and more states are passing laws against people buying meat from small time producers ' for the saftey ' of everyone - never mind that there is no garentee that the meat at the supermarket is any better. Are you alowed to buy trains with cheaper lead paint? No, we have to buy trains with a paint that may be more expensive.
Oh yes, plenty of laws have been passed that force people into to spend money in order to conform with the wishes of others.
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Greg, My wife was from Kentucky and while we lived in Kentucky,we raise 90% of our food including a hog and beef cow..In the fall we would harvest vegetables from the garden,we would have the cow and hog butchered in the fall as well as can vegetables such as green beans,corn and tomatoes..I would add deer meat to our freezer during deer season.
That was pretty heady stuff from a guy that was born and raised in the city of Columbus,Ohio..In fact I had tons of stuff to learn.My in-laws had chickens so we had fresh eggs and I dare say fresh chicken on some Sundays.Theres a lot to country livin'.