To DCC or not DCC, and which system?

[bearman]

shawnee - No matter which system you end up getting remember that there is no interchangeability.  Once you buy Digitrax, for example, then in terms of future upgrades, expansions, additions, etc you are stuck with Digitrax unless you want to go to another system and start all over from scratch, as it were.

[jktrains]

Sorry, lets clarify - A Zephyr system can not do Advanced consisting or that's what Digitrax experts have said.  Since Shawnee has said he's considering a Zephyr I didn't feel then need to be more specific.

CSX Robert - Is that to say that when Digitrax FINALLY comes out with a duplex radio system it will be able to access up to F28.  What about users that don't buy the new radio system, how will they be able to access up to F28?  Will they just be able to magically access it because the radio system is on the market?  What about people who already have a simplex radio system?  How will they upgrade?  Will they need to upgrade their throttles also?  If the only way they can access the higher functions is to buy a duplex radio system, that's what's called planned obsolesence

I have friends who have a their D systems for 6-7 years.  They've never heard of an upgrade.  In this day and age of technology items such as computers, cell phones, ipods etc being outdated almost as soon as you buy them that there haven't been tech advances that a software update could take advantage of?  Or is it more of a chicken or egg approach.  Is every new Loconet product made by Digitrax able to be used on current systems because they're simply backwards compatible or because they haven't change the system architecture in all those years?

I've used their products, including their manuals, and found them to be non-user friendly.  Since Shawnee is a newbie and wants to share this hobby with is 8 y.o. son, one of his criteria was a user friendly system, in all areas - installation and operation. 

 

[CSX Robert]

jktrains wrote:

I've never been able to have anyone explain to me in tangible terms what the advantage or flexibility of the Loconet is over a regular DCC control bus.

As simply as possible, the peer-to-peer Loconet has plug-n-play ability for all current & future Digitrax products without modification.

Other DCC systems that use polled buss (or master-slave) systems have to get their command station/throttle software upgraded periodically to account for new products that weren't forseen when the last software upgrade was made (Lenz, for example, is up to Version 3 software).

Digitrax, OTOH, has had only a single software upgrade to the Chief system since it came out in the 1990's, and that was right after it came out. Since then, Digitrax has added 3 new throttle designs, 4 new block detectors, radio throttles, infrared throttles, power managers, signalling and so on. And all without upgrading it's software. Loconet allows that to happen.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Oh, now I understand! That's why none of the Digitrax systems can't do Advanced consisting or access the higher functions. Their software can't be upgraded. Yet other entry level systems like PA or the PowerCab can because those systems can have their software upgraded to be able to use newly developed products. Digitrax makes it so their software can't be upgraded and also makes it so that you have to use their 'loconet' compliant products. Now I understand, its all business planning - planned obselesence so that user needs to purchase completely new system for a few hundred $$ instead of an upgraded chip for $20. Now it makes sense.

Digitrax CAN do Advanced consisting. First of all, the Digitrax command stations can be set to automatically do advanced consisting, in fact, I believe that this is the default on the Chief. Second of all, you can do advanced consists manually on any system that alows you to program CV19.

Digitrax systems also CAN have their software upgraded, they just don't need to. When Digitrax introduced the DT400 throttle, they added functions f9 through f12 without requiring an upgrade to the command stations. There have been rumors that Digitrax is working on a new wireless throttle that should be out in early 2008. If that is true, I would not be suprised if it includes functions up through f28.

I thinks it's funny that you mentioned planned obselesence when every Loconet product made by Digitrax can be used on current systems.

[jktrains]

I'm definitely off the EZ Command option.  IT  comes down to NCE and Zephyr.  I'm going to do more research build upon the great advice here.  I'm printing out this thread for continued reference. It looks like both NCE and Zephyr have their own advantages.  I probably won't go wrong with either.  NCE sounds like it's a bit more intuitive, and Zephyr has more power and good exapandibility.   Though the additional power unit for NCE seems not too expensive either.  Guess I'll spend a while on TonyTRains today.  Their stuff is interesting too, and doesn't seem like just manufacturer propaganda.

Let me humbly ask a question about train decoders...after all, that's a key element to buy too.  I've got ten of them to get, at some point. Where does one find information on decoders, say, for a Kato SD45?  ie, for specific makes and types.  Are all decoders created equal?

Shawnee,

I've used all 3 major systems - Digitrax, NCE and PA.  IMO, the info on Tony's website is good information presented in a unbiased, easy to follow manner.  Keep doing your research.  There's no doubt that any of the three will be able to run your layout, it really comes down to an ease of use factor.  Keep in mind that your primary interface with a DCC system is the throttle you will hold in your hand (if you can ).  Ultimately, if you're not happy with how you use the throttle, the information it provides, you won't be happy with the system regardless of how little or much you spent on it.

Regarding decoders, not all decoders are equal.  Figure out how many fuctions you need for lights since you're not interested in sound.  I recommend a minimum of 4 functions.  Remember that F0 and F1 are usually the front and rear headlights.  If you want working ditchlights you need 2 more functions.  A mars light or multiple headlights mean more than 2 functions.  Regarding what decoder fights what engine I think Tony's website may have a chart.  The NCE website has one for their decoders.  Other differences in decoders involve things like the ability to handle Advanced consisting and BEMF motor control. 

jktrains

[jktrains]

jktrains wrote:

I've never been able to have anyone explain to me in tangible terms what the advantage or flexibility of the Loconet is over a regular DCC control bus.

As simply as possible, the peer-to-peer Loconet has plug-n-play ability for all current & future Digitrax products without modification. 

Other DCC systems that use polled buss (or master-slave) systems have to get their command station/throttle software upgraded periodically to account for new products that weren't forseen when the last software upgrade was made (Lenz, for example, is up to Version 3 software).

Digitrax, OTOH, has had only a single software upgrade to the Chief system since it came out in the 1990's, and that was right after it came out.  Since then, Digitrax has added 3 new throttle designs, 4 new block detectors, radio throttles, infrared throttles, power managers, signalling and so on.  And all without upgrading it's software.  Loconet allows that to happen.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

Oh, now I understand!  That's why none of the Digitrax systems can't do Advanced consisting or access the higher functions.  Their software can't be upgraded.  Yet other entry level systems like PA or the PowerCab can because those systems can have their software upgraded to be able to use newly developed products.  Digitrax makes it so their software can't be upgraded and also makes it so that you have to use their 'loconet' compliant products.  Now I understand, its all business planning - planned obselesence so that user needs to purchase completely new system for a few hundred $$ instead of an upgraded chip for $20.  Now it makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Decoders are a can of worms.

One rule:

If the analog engine DOES NOT RUN WELL... a decoder will probably NOT fix it.

 

[shawnee]

I'm definitely off the EZ Command option.  IT  comes down to NCE and Zephyr.  I'm going to do more research build upon the great advice here.  I'm printing out this thread for continued reference. It looks like both NCE and Zephyr have their own advantages.  I probably won't go wrong with either.  NCE sounds like it's a bit more intuitive, and Zephyr has more power and good exapandibility.   Though the additional power unit for NCE seems not too expensive either.  Guess I'll spend a while on TonyTRains today.  Their stuff is interesting too, and doesn't seem like just manufacturer propaganda.

Let me humbly ask a question about train decoders...after all, that's a key element to buy too.  I've got ten of them to get, at some point. Where does one find information on decoders, say, for a Kato SD45?  ie, for specific makes and types.  Are all decoders created equal?

[bearman]

Lot's of good advice to your questions.  I would opt for something a little more expensive than the EZ Command because of the expandability issue.  I had the exact same questions as you when it was time for me to build by new layout.  I ended up researching all the options both on-line and through some articles in MR mag, check out the Dec 2005 issue, and settled on the Zephyr.  You should also consider a PSXAR from Tony's, one each for your reverse loops.   The PSXAR also doubles as a circuit breaker.  When you figure that a DCC equipped loco goes for100$+, then the 40$ or so for the PSXAR makes sense.  My first layout was DC and when I hooked up the Zephyr to the new one, albeit it is still under construction, I was hooked.

[Anonymous]

I personally cannot stand buying half of anything. I think that the basic DCC systems are ok and necessary. Posts such as "why dont I have enough power to program?" confirms my thinking that these basic DCC systems may or may not have the "Beef" to feed the engines.

I went totally to the high extreme by buying the Super Chief 8 amp, power supply 2012 etc etc etc... I just finished soaking in the SE8c signalling for the CPL B&O's no less these last few weeks. Sometimes the HUM in my house when I fire up the train room eclipses the one under the computer that is driven by a 550 watt power supply on several rails backed by a massive APU Battery that keeps me "UP" when arkansas loses power at times.

Call me extreme, but Ive sucessfully ran trains and any mistakes I made was my own, not the equiptment's fault.

[cudaken]

 Shawnee, here is what I did with my EZ. For walk around I cut off the stock lead on the power cable to track. Added about 6 foot, use a extion cord for the power pack so I can move around with the main controler.

 For the far end of my bench I used a slot car racing trick. From my main power block that feed the feeders I ran + and - wires to 2 screws that are screwed through the bench work. I have allagator clips on the end for the power wires to the track. I un hooke the clips from the main power wires and hook them to the screws and I am 15 feet from my normaly postion I run from.

 If you like PIC I will post them, way simpler than it sounds like. You could do it 15 minutes max, took me 20! 

 I can run 4 BLI's Steam with sound on the small 1 amp power supply. I am not rich, but can spend $150 to $600 a month on this hobby. I still get the itch for a better DCC system and I can buy one depending on how my sales go. But ever time I am ready to pull the triger on a new system I stop and think. Why? In fact many of the people here in a round about way talk me out of upgrading. I want more F button control (for sound options) and EZ will only handel F-1 to F-8. But it was pointed out over and over most people only use up to F-8? So why up grade if the power pack is not shutting down?

 I am odd, running a $600.00 Steam engine on a used $30.00 EZ from T-Stage.

 By the way when you finaly jump to sound you will be hooked like me. I held out for some time. You can all use the F-8 button when you dont want any sound.

 

                     EZ Ken

[Paul3]

jktrains wrote:

I've never been able to have anyone explain to me in tangible terms what the advantage or flexibility of the Loconet is over a regular DCC control bus.

As simply as possible, the peer-to-peer Loconet has plug-n-play ability for all current & future Digitrax products without modification. 

Other DCC systems that use polled buss (or master-slave) systems have to get their command station/throttle software upgraded periodically to account for new products that weren't forseen when the last software upgrade was made (Lenz, for example, is up to Version 3 software).

Digitrax, OTOH, has had only a single software upgrade to the Chief system since it came out in the 1990's, and that was right after it came out.  Since then, Digitrax has added 3 new throttle designs, 4 new block detectors, radio throttles, infrared throttles, power managers, signalling and so on.  And all without upgrading it's software.  Loconet allows that to happen.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[CSX Robert]

Shawnee,

Non of your questions have been "stoopid." These are all questions everybody has when first looking into DCC.

...

I've never been able to have anyone explain to me in tangible terms what the advantage or flexibility of the Loconet is over a regular DCC control bus.

...

I won't go into the advantages of a peer to peer network over a polled network because, although the advantages are real, they won't make much difference in most model railroad situations.

I will, however, suggest you look at a few of the things that you can do with Loconet:

http://home.houston.rr.com/lrt/lnfc.htm
http://www.cmlelectronics.co.uk/products/dtm30.htm
http://www.eurorailhobbies.com/ERH/eurorailhobbiesdetail.asp?pageid=&MN=16&stock=UH-28110
http://mjmx.home.comcast.net/loconet_software.htm

[shawnee]

Well, it looks  like 10 of my 12 locos are equipped with DCC slots...good news.  Funny, when I bought them it wasn't even a consideration, never gave it ba second thought.

[davekelly]

One day, I went out and bought the DCC system.  I installed a decoder in one engine, and hooked it up.  Within a half-hour, I was a 12-year-old kid again, having a blast with trains . . .  Personally, I'm hooked on sound, which I didn't think would happen.  No, not to me.  Never. 

 

Been there done that!!  Someone needs to make a T-Shirt! 

[shawnee]

The good news for me with NCE is that with my layout, there's not a lot of room to walkaround anyway.  It's basically a elongated donut shape cut by an aisle, to maximize running space.  Center spot id about 4 feet wide. So that's not a worry.  Bigger issue is probably the DC loco capability.  I've got to check my locos tonight to see how many are plug n' play...most of the Katos are I know.  But I've got to either sell the rest, or consider Zephyr.  That's something to consider.

If only...NCE could accomodate DC loco slot.  I guess I need to do more deep research and bit more pondering, but y'all have really helped me here, got me off to a good, and enthusiastic start, and I'm indebted to you.  Thank you.

And thank you for the note on the auto reverser from Tonys Trains.  Very helpful to start to orient me on how to accomodate that.  I think that's a really neat feature...saving all the hassle of the reverse looping.

NCE or Zephyr...maybe look at prodigy at 100 bucks too...and figure which is best.  Got to figure if NCE is that much user-friendly than Zephyr...the Digitrax stuff does look complicated.

[jktrains]

Shawnee,

The auto-reverser is really easy to install.  Simply double gap the reversing section on boths ends like you would with DC.  The 2 wires from the track bus go into the reverser and the output of the reverser goes to the isolated reversing section.  Done!  All the other stuff has to do with adjustments that typically aren't need.  I've never changed them on mine.

I'll repeat what I said in an earlier post.  DC engines running on DCC do not like reversing sections.  I had a friend running a DC engine on DCC through a reverse loop.  The loco was running just fine then all of a sudden it went into reverse without stopping.  He stopped the engine, change direction to forward again and it come out of the loop.  We tried running it through the loop again and it did the same thing.  Why? Because the reverser was reversing the 'phased polarity' of the reversing section.  I don't know about you but I don;t want to take my new $100 loco and running at 1/2 throttle then switch direction.  Not good for the motor.

jktrains

[jktrains]

I'll also add a couple of points. The PowerCab is a tethered cab, which means you can not unplug it while running trains; however, if you get the SmartBooster it becomes a walkaround cab, meaning that you can unplug it and move it to a different location while your trains are running. To me, the biggest limitation for the PowerCab is the 4 cab maximum with the SmartBooster(I have 2 sons, a nephew, and 3 nieces), but this does not seam to be a concern for you. I also like the added flexibility of Loconet that you get with Digitrax.

I don't believe that NCE makes an auto-reverser, but don't let that influence your decision because auto-reversers are system independent.

I've never been able to have anyone explain to me in tangible terms what the advantage or flexibility of the Loconet is over a regular DCC control bus. 

Shawnee - Without checking their website I don't believe that NCE makes a dedicated auto-reverser.  When DCC first came out people used a separate booster as an auto-reverser, a rather expensive why to do it.  Since then numerous third party suppliers have introduced auto-reversers.  All perform the function, some better or faster than others, with price being a differentiating factor as well.  My preference and experience has been with the PS-Rev from Tony's which is now a PSX-AR or something like that.

Other replies are correct in stating that to do walk around you will need a SmartBooster.  That's because the PowerCab itself functions as the command station so that when you unplug it you in essence unplug the command station from the layout.  The SmartBooster gives full walk around capability and increases the total power of the system.  Well worth the additional cost, but is something that could always be added later after you up and running and comfortable with the system.

jktrains

[NYCentral1]

I gave this advice earlier on a similiar thread... You can get an MRC Prodigy Express for $102 on www.wholesaletrains.com.  I just think it's a really good deal, that's why I keep suggesting it.

It has a very similiar design to the NCE Powercab (and very comparable capabilities), but is totally upgradeable to the better Prodigy Advance.  You could buy the Express, then upgrade up from there as your needs evolved.  The NCE is also good I'm sure, and upgradable, but not to the extent the Express is I'm sure.

[floridaflyer]

As a novice in DCC I was a little reluctant to take the plunge. but after just a little experience, I'm sold. The auto reverser from Tony's comes as a circut board. I used some irrigation hose as spacers and mounted the board to a frame member under the table close to the reverse loop. Two wires from the buss in and two wires to the track out. The unit can do much more but the setup to use the reversing portion is a piece of cake.

[shawnee]

CSXRobert, it does appear that NCE doesn't make an autoreverser, but I've been on the TonysTrains site and they do make one.  The whole autoreverser set up is something that is highly confusing to me at this point, since I dion't understand how it sets up...it's an electronic board thingy (forgive the technical term)...and wires between the DCC system and the track, but i guess it's supposed to be mounted inside a fascia?  Does it come in box or is it just an exposed circuit board?  I know these are stoopid questions, but the autoreverser is one of the things that makes DCC attractive, along with (obviously) the independent train control.

I guess that's why so many of us have hung on to DC...the whole DCC thing looks incredibly technical.  I'm just a guy who designs landscapes for a living. 

In any case, i'm gonna take this plunge...my head may explode, but I'm going for it.

[tstage]

Shawnee,

You can pick up the Power Cab for as little as $140 from Empire Northern and Tony's Train Exchange  If you're interested, there's also a review of the NCE Power Cab on my web site that I did back in Feb. '06, along with a review on the Smart Booster and CAB-04p throttle.  I think it's a pretty fair assessment of each product, including their pros and cons.

Even so, the Zephyr is a very good system and definitely worth your consideration - especially if you need or want to run any "non-DCC" locomotives.  None of the NCE or MRC DCC systems can do that.

Hope that's a help... 

Tom

[CSX Robert]

I have a Zephyr and I'll tell you the same thing I told MilwaukeeRoad. When I was looking at DCC systems I seriously considered the Zephyr, PowerCab, and Prodigy Express, and here were some of my key considerations:

Prodigy Express does not have a PC interface, the PowerCab does not, but it is supposed to be available soon, and the Zephyr has a PC interface available right now. The PowerCab has a 2 cab limit or 4 cab limit with the SmartBooster, the Express has a 20 cab limit, and the Zephyr has a 10 cab limit. The Zephyr is a console unit and the PowerCab and Express are both walkaround, so if you want walkaround with the Zephyr(which you probably will) be prepared to buy a cab. The Express is 1.6 Amps, the PowerCab is 2 Amps, and the Zephyr is 2.5 Amps. The PowerCab and Zephyr can both control accessory turnouts, the Express can not unless you upgrade it by purchasing a Prodigy Advanced cab. All three are now upgradeable to wireless, and the MRC wireless looks like a very nice setup and costs less than the Digitrax or NCE setup, although it is currently unproven.

I'll also add a couple of points. The PowerCab is a tethered cab, which means you can not unplug it while running trains; however, if you get the SmartBooster it becomes a walkaround cab, meaning that you can unplug it and move it to a different location while your trains are running. To me, the biggest limitation for the PowerCab is the 4 cab maximum with the SmartBooster(I have 2 sons, a nephew, and 3 nieces), but this does not seam to be a concern for you. I also like the added flexibility of Loconet that you get with Digitrax.

I don't believe that NCE makes an auto-reverser, but don't let that influence your decision because auto-reversers are system independent.

[shawnee]

JK...I'm looking at the NCE site, and trying to find the auto-reverser.  It seems hard to find.  Do you know if they call it something different? When I search Walthers for NCE and keyword auto reverse or variations, nothing comes up.  Trying to find how much they cost.  It's very cool that the autoreverser can handle two sections.

The manual looks like it just requires a good long sit-down-and-read.  I'll just have the take the time to master it.  I think the NCE might be a good steer.

It's a mild drag that NCE doesn't handle DC locos.  Oh well. I only have about 12, so it shouldn't take all that long.  Which decoders to pick is the question there too...is there a website which offers guides to best decoders for specific manufacturer types?  The Kalmbach book looks like a good thing to get too...i'll do that, thanks.

I'm going to take the DCC plunge.  May delay my layout from going operational for a few weeks, but I'm gonna do it. 

 

[jesrr]

I was like you when i started. but i finally made up my mind to go dcc mainly because i ordered dcc  made easy by kalbach publishing. in this book dcc is exlained in easy terms and they list all the dcc systems in a comparision chart. this makes it easier to pick your system. if you go dcc you wont regret it. good luck with your choice.

[Occams Razor]

I am 99% certain that the picture you posted contains everything you need minus decoders and autoreversers.

NCE systems do not have a provision for running DC locomotives at all. 

You can set the locos address to whatever you'd like.  I use four digit addressing and the loco number as it appears on the loco, just to make things easy to remember.

Not sure on the reverser question, sorry.

 

Edit:  That's what I get for trying to use the forums at work.  I get beaten by a much more informative post. 

[jktrains]

Hey, y'all are right...took a look and the NCE Powercab entry-level system is just about the same price as a Digitrx Zephyr.  $189 at Walthers, though I'm sure I could find it elsewhere for a few bucks less.  If it's more intuitive to use that will certainly be good for me. 

It is a hand held...which is cool, no extra stuff to add.  Does the pic below contain everything I'll need to start (except for the auto reversers and decoders)?

photo omitted

Can it handle DC engines while i convert my small fleet?

Can one use as the DCC loco address the number you decalled on the side of the engine itself?  That would be cool.

Does one autoreverser handle more than one reverse section?  Or do you buy one for each section?

 

 

That's everything you need to get started.  The NCE system won't run an analog loco.  BUt once you use DCC, you won't want to go back.  Another thing is that A DC loco run on DCC has problems with reversing sections.  When they it the boundary they reverse direction automatically.  If you're running a train with one that would cause a problem.

Yes, you can and should use the loco number as the decoder address. That's the beauty of DCC and what makes it easy to select a loco.  You just need to program the proper address into the decoder.

An auto reverser can handle more than one reversing section.  A problem can occur of more than one train is crossing the sectio boundary at the same time then the reverser becomes confused and doesn't know what to do.  It doesn't happen often but I have seen it happen.

jktrains

[shawnee]

The EZ Command system, looks like the basic system is about $79 bucks, and the hand throttle is another $69.  That's a little less than $150.  A that point, from what I hear, it might be worth it to just get NCE or Zephyr..esp since the NCE is hand held anyway.  Just hope it's easy to understand and use.

I guess the whole fear thing with DCC is it's complexity as an unknown, and as Jeff says the complexity of the CV programming and screwing it up.  Is that a common thing that happens?  Is it easy to fix?

Sorry for the oh-so basic questions, but I guess a lot of people have these as they look to the plunge.

[jktrains]

The other thing with the Bachmann EZ command is that you will be very very limited in your ability to program CVs to take advantage of all the things your new decoder equipped locos will be able to do.

Again, for ease of use I don;t think you can beat NCE.  I mean, take a look at the Prodigy throttle and see how closely their throttle resembles a ProCab.  You know what they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  I don't see anyone imitating the Zephyr control unit - a fairly big box with a large display that is limited in what it can display with a large knob for speed control.

[shawnee]

Hey, y'all are right...took a look and the NCE Powercab entry-level system is just about the same price as a Digitrx Zephyr.  $189 at Walthers, though I'm sure I could find it elsewhere for a few bucks less.  If it's more intuitive to use that will certainly be good for me. 

It is a hand held...which is cool, no extra stuff to add.  Does the pic below contain everything I'll need to start (except for the auto reversers and decoders)?

Can it handle DC engines while i convert my small fleet?

Can one use as the DCC loco address the number you decalled on the side of the engine itself?  That would be cool.

Does one autoreverser handle more than one reverse section?  Or do you buy one for each section?

 

 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

If you're a DCC dummy and feel that you need a simple system the Bachmann EZ-Command is the way to go. It's simple and has a very low learning curve. A child can operate it with no problem and there's no worry about co0mplex CV settings accidently getting screwed up. Programming is a snap and can be done in mere seconds. Also, this talk about not being able to use it to run two or more locos in consist is a bunch of balony. While you won't be able to speed match them, you can certainly run them together under one address so that one button control all the locos in the consist. It's an excellent starter system for someone starting out in DCC who doesn't want to spend a lot or have to worry about a lot of settings. I'm very happy with mine.