CAZEPHYR wrote:The PCM units are plated but are listed as a PA2 set.
The Santa Fe had PA1's if I have the facts correct
I know the PA3 looked different and lost some detail in the side screens,
the PA2 might look like the PA1. Let hope the PCM units are correct, just their ad is incorrect.
Virginian wrote: With all these experts on how to start up and operate a successful model railroad business I am more than somewhat surprised there are not more companies in this arena.Good grief.
With all these experts on how to start up and operate a successful model railroad business I am more than somewhat surprised there are not more companies in this arena.
Good grief.
I'm not an expert at running a MRR business, but I am an expert at being a customer. I expect to be treated fairly and honestly. If I feel that I am not treated as a valued customer, I call out the company in public. When I expierience average or better customer service or a quality product, I say so in public. If a company lies to me, I give them a chance to come clean. If they choose to ignore me, I make it public. If you get less than satisfactory service from a company, do you not make it be known? PCM had their chance with me and this is the best place to voice those complaints.
Examples of a positive my comments are:
BLW had some stuff back ordered for me, when I placed a new order yesterday, they pointed out that they had overlooked the back order and were shipping the merchandise with my current order. Without request, they upgraded my shipping to Prioroty Mail and absorbed the shipping costs.
Bachmann provided me with a superior running N&W class J steam locomotive that runs without stalling or slipping. It's operation is comparable to my best to date brass Yellowstone (another fine product). It pulls 62 MTL cars on the level, maybe more when I commision my 20"r outside curves.
The Athearn CRR Challenger was more than I had hoped for in an articulated model. It pulls better than the Kato NKP 2-8-2, has DCC and sound, has superior detail and costs less than the 2 Lifelike N&W class Y's that pull a smaller load when (the y's are) double headed. It pulls 61 MTL cars on the level (I ran out of track space again).
The ConCor CfofG 2-10-2 is a stump puller. While light on detail, the ease of conversion to DCC and reliabilty more than makes up for the appearance.
Examples of my negative comments:
My examples of the ConCor GN and PRR S2 Northern are less than satisfactory. They throw siderods off at the most inopportune times. They did not exhibit this problem until after the warranty expired. Shelf Queens.
The LifeLike Berkshire is a very pretty failure. My NKP pair had the following problems: One locks up after a few minutes of operation. The other slips with only the tender as a load. A lifetime warranty will not help these models. More Shelf Queens.
My observations are based on my personal expieriences. This is what any of us go by.
PCM has offered 5 separate N Scale products and delivered on one. The one thing they delivered on has no interest to me. They have repeatedly pushed back the delivery date on the other 4. How would you grade their business model? And how would you feel if the carrot on the end of the stick was your 'pet model'?
I welcome spirited debate, but when it is unsubstantiated sarcasm, I have to throw the BS flag. There are many replies to this thread that are intelligently and civily worded, from both sides of the fence. Why don't you join us in the debate on one side or the other? I have read many of your posts and have a great deal of respect for your opinion, why not share your veiw of the facts on this topic?
Bob
Going back to the Daylight theme of this thread (and not the daily PCM/BLI why-has-this-not-yet-been-released-when-I-wait-so-long-already).
I only hope when they start delivering the Daylight cars that they will do as announced; 1 car a month. I could do also with 2 but when they do release them in whole sets then it will be a real Bank Account breaker.
I need to ask them how they plan on releasing the cars...
I also heard of Athearn doing these cars but so far Athearn didn't impress me with their passenger cars... and who's to say this time they are better?
Fair enough navygunner. I was having a bad day.
I guess I have been lied to so much that it no longer bothers me, at least as relates to delivery dates on new stuff. As long as it eventually shows up I can live with it just fine. I am sure everyone has their own take on this. Having been treated the same by several employers,you tend to treat things relatively.
Everything BLI/PCM said they were going to do that really affects me via the roads I model, they have done, eventually. Yes, you guessed it, I am an N&W/VGN steam guy. I called them waaaaay back about a 'J'. They said they were definitely going to do one, but they weren't sure when it would get done, and the date when they released one was really a best guess. But they did make one; a good one in my opinion. Every model I have gotten runs well, the paint is great, except the 'J' stripe (a lot of company there), and the sound is very good at worst (I don't run sound too often). They either come with traction tires, or the option of same, which I like because I do like to pull things, and have learned how not to have problems with them about 15 years ago. I keep reading how bad their business model is, but they keep delivering new stuff that no one else has been able to manage outside of brass, ever. I will bet money their GS-4s will be great, and if you are one of the legions wanting a Yellowstone or an EM-1 for decades, I would say they are about your last, best hope.
I come from a time when a good steam locomotive mechanism was the "be all, end all". You can fix about everything else. I love all the examples of the P2K Heritage steam examples I have ( I am in HO, not N). Their mechanisms are beautiful. Yes I have added weight to them, and will probably add tender pickups to the 0-8-0 tender at some point. I have had a rod fall off, of a lot of engines, and cured that with purple or blue LocTite.
It appears to me BLI/PCM/(and now) FDT come in for more than their fair share of bashing. Yes, I can understand the being upset about delivery dates, but why is everyone concerned about their marketing so much? You pays money up front (never in advance) to make sure you get one or more of what you want, or you gamble on waiting and paying less later. Seems fair to me. If the local hobby shops do not like direct marketing, I can see that, but they are going to be facing more and more of that (along with other business segments), because that is the way I think the economy is going.
Hi ho, it's off to work I go.
jimrice4449 wrote:Take heart Daylight afficianados! I Emailed Athearn as to delivery date of their rumored Daylight cars (not the train set shorties, but the actual models) . They replied "late 2007". I didn't have the wit to ask as to whether the letterboard will be pre or post June '46, but after waiting for decades for a Daylight I could afford I'll take whichever comes out first.
Jim
I first heard of the new Athearn cars only recently, but on this forum. Are they actually making the correct cars for the Daylight, or a generic are in Daylight colors that are 77' in length??
Thanks
Daniel1975 wrote: I only hope when they start delivering the Daylight cars that they will do as announced; 1 car a month. I could do also with 2 but when they do release them in whole sets then it will be a real Bank Account breaker.
CAZEPHYR wrote: jimrice4449 wrote:Take heart Daylight afficianados! I Emailed Athearn as to delivery date of their rumored Daylight cars (not the train set shorties, but the actual models) . They replied "late 2007". I didn't have the wit to ask as to whether the letterboard will be pre or post June '46, but after waiting for decades for a Daylight I could afford I'll take whichever comes out first.Jim I first heard of the new Athearn cars only recently, but on this forum. Are they actually making the correct cars for the Daylight, or a generic are in Daylight colors that are 77' in length?? Thanks
PCM is releasing the Morning Daylight and Athearn is releasing the Afternoon Daylight which has most of the same consist except for one car the Lunch Counter Tavern Lounge car?
Ch
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub
Texas Zepher wrote: Daniel1975 wrote: I only hope when they start delivering the Daylight cars that they will do as announced; 1 car a month. I could do also with 2 but when they do release them in whole sets then it will be a real Bank Account breaker. Me too! The California Zephyr cars were supposed to be released that way. But they all came out in only three months, which made financing the thousands of dollars for them difficult. Of course that is one of the pre-orders I got burned on. Had I only known they were going to be over produced and available at 1/2 the list price..... Then maybe I could afford the Daylights!
They replied and so far they haven't exactly fixed a plan on that point but he said they will probably be released in batches of 4 to 5 cars each month. So it will take them around 4 to 5 months releasing all cars (stock numbers 680 - 699).
Good to know and hopefully by late spring 2008 I will have both my Daylight trainsets.... can't wait.
You know, some of the talk about delayed shipment/true availability of these models strikes me as familiar. Years back Stewart (when they were separate from Bowser) in the 90's announced they were coming out with FT's in HO. Fantastic, thought I, especially because they were being done in NYC lightning stripe as a first run. I placed an order with my local train shop. And waited. And waited. And - you get the idea. At the time I was traveling at least a couple of times a year to Steamtown and tried the old shop on Lackawanna Ave. Same deal - announced but no delivery date.
Turns out it was close to two years from first announcement to delivery. And boy was I disappointed when I saw the hack job done on the lightning stripes where they meet at the junction of the nose and sides. Most models I looked at were off by at LEAST a half-stripe width, some by a full stripe. Bought them anyway and had the shells stripped and custom-painted. When I saw that PCM/BLI was doing lightning stripes I thought: Yeah, I'll go for those. Then I saw pictures and they have/had the same stripe registration the Stewart's had. Now I find out about this delay stuff? Sure glad I didn't order them.
Model trains aren't the only business this happens in. I also am a musician and had pre-ordered an upgrade to a sound sample library. The alleged shipping date was 3 months in the future. Not too bad, I thought. Then it dragged out to over a year before they were available. The real probelm? They charged my credit card at the time of order, and that was a $3000 charge! Could have earned interest on that.
Feh on pre-orders.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
Daniel1975 wrote: Texas Zepher wrote: Daniel1975 wrote: I only hope when they start delivering the Daylight cars that they will do as announced; 1 car a month. I could do also with 2 but when they do release them in whole sets then it will be a real Bank Account breaker. Me too! The California Zephyr cars were supposed to be released that way. But they all came out in only three months, which made financing the thousands of dollars for them difficult. Of course that is one of the pre-orders I got burned on. Had I only known they were going to be over produced and available at 1/2 the list price..... Then maybe I could afford the Daylights!Daniel I hope we actually get the full train set from PCM, but I have read on other posts about Athearn doing a Daylight train also. This is a new set of cars they are talking about and not the RTR cars. I have not been able to confirm that with Athearn, but if it is true, the PCM offering might be in trouble, since it has been delayed already. I did read Athearn was going to offer the SP MT4 4-8-2 and maybe the train is the San Joaquin version of the Daylight, which is different. CAZEPHYR They replied and so far they haven't exactly fixed a plan on that point but he said they will probably be released in batches of 4 to 5 cars each month. So it will take them around 4 to 5 months releasing all cars (stock numbers 680 - 699). Good to know and hopefully by late spring 2008 I will have both my Daylight trainsets.... can't wait.
Daniel
I hope we actually get the full train set from PCM, but I have read on other posts about Athearn doing a Daylight train also. This is a new set of cars they are talking about and not the RTR cars. I have not been able to confirm that with Athearn, but if it is true, the PCM offering might be in trouble, since it has been delayed already. I did read Athearn was going to offer the SP MT4 4-8-2 and maybe the train is the San Joaquin version of the Daylight, which is different.
CAZEPHYR
Charlie wrote: CAZEPHYR wrote: jimrice4449 wrote:Take heart Daylight afficianados! I Emailed Athearn as to delivery date of their rumored Daylight cars (not the train set shorties, but the actual models) . They replied "late 2007". I didn't have the wit to ask as to whether the letterboard will be pre or post June '46, but after waiting for decades for a Daylight I could afford I'll take whichever comes out first.Jim I first heard of the new Athearn cars only recently, but on this forum. Are they actually making the correct cars for the Daylight, or a generic are in Daylight colors that are 77' in length?? ThanksPCM is releasing the Morning Daylight and Athearn is releasing the Afternoon Daylight which has most of the same consist except for one car the Lunch Counter Tavern Lounge car?Ch
Thanks for the information. That will probably cause one READ ( PCM) to drop out if the other one read ( ATHEARN) gets their model out before the final date is set for company that lags, Read(PCM). I would put my money on Athearn at this time since they have really imported more items since Horizon took over and seem to be making money.
If Athearn IS planning on doing authentic Daylight cars AND an MT-4 4-8-2, it should be interesting to see what happens, here. A 'Genesis' 4-8-2 would probably be a very good, VERY detailed locomotive (judging from their 4-6-6-4), though if they are thinking of it as power for Daylight cars, they might be thinking of the "San Joaquin" Daylight, instead of the "Coast" version. That's okay with me--the "San Joaquin" was almost as handsome as the "Coast", only with slightly different cars (maybe Athearn will even do that unique 3/4 Dome).
Either way, I don't see how we can lose. I really like the re-tooled equipment that Athearn/Horizon is releasing. And they seem to be RELEASING it, not just promising it!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite wrote: If Athearn IS planning on doing authentic Daylight cars AND an MT-4 4-8-2, it should be interesting to see what happens, here. A 'Genesis' 4-8-2 would probably be a very good, VERY detailed locomotive (judging from their 4-6-6-4), though if they are thinking of it as power for Daylight cars, they might be thinking of the "San Joaquin" Daylight, instead of the "Coast" version. That's okay with me--the "San Joaquin" was almost as handsome as the "Coast", only with slightly different cars (maybe Athearn will even do that unique 3/4 Dome). Either way, I don't see how we can lose. I really like the re-tooled equipment that Athearn/Horizon is releasing. And they seem to be RELEASING it, not just promising it! Tom
The announcement a few months about future products from Athearn had the MT4 in both the steamlined casing and non steamlined if I remember correctly. The also had some other engines listed at that time. The Daylight cars probably would include the heavy weight baggage used on the run up the valley.
CAZEPHYR wrote: twhite wrote: If Athearn IS planning on doing authentic Daylight cars AND an MT-4 4-8-2, it should be interesting to see what happens, here. A 'Genesis' 4-8-2 would probably be a very good, VERY detailed locomotive (judging from their 4-6-6-4), though if they are thinking of it as power for Daylight cars, they might be thinking of the "San Joaquin" Daylight, instead of the "Coast" version. That's okay with me--the "San Joaquin" was almost as handsome as the "Coast", only with slightly different cars (maybe Athearn will even do that unique 3/4 Dome). Either way, I don't see how we can lose. I really like the re-tooled equipment that Athearn/Horizon is releasing. And they seem to be RELEASING it, not just promising it! Tom The announcement a few months about future products from Athearn had the MT4 in both the steamlined casing and non steamlined if I remember correctly. The also had some other engines listed at that time. The Daylight cars probably would include the heavy weight baggage used on the run up the valley.
CaZephyr:
Okay, you've got me DROOLING, LOL! Let's see what happens.
Safety Valve wrote:I hear that BLI will FINALLY have the NW switchers arriving next week... knock on wood... I will believe it when I see it at the store.I dont see myself participating in pre-orders too much anymore, my roster is essentially complete, (I will always buy one or two engines that I like and AVAILIBLE RIGHT THEN Not 2 years later or ever) rolling stock finished and structures are either being built or purchased on schedule without the wait.However, I think that PCM/BLI/FDT will need to sit down in a quiet place and re-assess thier lost mission goal. They say that "Silence No More" when they barged into the HO market with their locomtives. Is it possible that due to excessive silence that BLI is no more?If they are trying to lead us lemmings into the land of total pre-order with no exceptions or very limited overs for the john q public who might read an advertisement in MR 3 months only to learn it;s out of production and sold out.Yet the advertisements roll on. Whose lack of oversight is that?
The BLI Switchers will indeed arrive in a week and the new run of RSD-15s is already available.
You can either pre-order their models or you can buy them when they hit the stores. You only need to act fast when you don't pre-order and you can't expect that these models should sit at dealers for years and years so you have enough time to decide whether you will buy it or not.
Daniel1975 wrote: Safety Valve wrote:I hear that BLI will FINALLY have the NW switchers arriving next week... knock on wood... I will believe it when I see it at the store.I dont see myself participating in pre-orders too much anymore, my roster is essentially complete, (I will always buy one or two engines that I like and AVAILIBLE RIGHT THEN Not 2 years later or ever) rolling stock finished and structures are either being built or purchased on schedule without the wait.However, I think that PCM/BLI/FDT will need to sit down in a quiet place and re-assess thier lost mission goal. They say that "Silence No More" when they barged into the HO market with their locomtives. Is it possible that due to excessive silence that BLI is no more?If they are trying to lead us lemmings into the land of total pre-order with no exceptions or very limited overs for the john q public who might read an advertisement in MR 3 months only to learn it;s out of production and sold out.Yet the advertisements roll on. Whose lack of oversight is that? The BLI Switchers will indeed arrive in a week and the new run of RSD-15s is already available.You can either pre-order their models or you can buy them when they hit the stores. You only need to act fast when you don't pre-order and you can't expect that these models should sit at dealers for years and years so you have enough time to decide whether you will buy it or not.
Safety Valve wrote:I feel as if I got burned on the Genesis 2-8-2, it was a VERY sweet mechanism, some of the best smooth runner ever in HO steam. But could not pull it's own tender up the grades I want to run.However, a glance at my list that is what is used for purchase planning month to month, Athearn and Atlas deserve KUDOs for releasing product on time, as promised. Even Woodland Scenics released thier Chip and Dale's Barrel Factory "ON time"Even walthers deserve some praise for thier consistent work with the new products, I have one of thier tanning factories on layway at a good price, one that is unlikely if I wanted to assemble this complex seperately from thier modulars.I hear that BLI will FINALLY have the NW switchers arriving next week... knock on wood... I will believe it when I see it at the store.I dont see myself participating in pre-orders too much anymore, my roster is essentially complete, (I will always buy one or two engines that I like and AVAILIBLE RIGHT THEN Not 2 years later or ever) rolling stock finished and structures are either being built or purchased on schedule without the wait.However, I think that PCM/BLI/FDT will need to sit down in a quiet place and re-assess thier lost mission goal. They say that "Silence No More" when they barged into the HO market with their locomtives. Is it possible that due to excessive silence that BLI is no more?If they are trying to lead us lemmings into the land of total pre-order with no exceptions or very limited overs for the john q public who might read an advertisement in MR 3 months only to learn it;s out of production and sold out.Yet the advertisements roll on. Whose lack of oversight is that?
SafetyValve:
Like you, I was disappointed in the Genesis USRA 2-8-2--my purchase is only used as a helper loco--WHEN I use it (the cracked-gear plagueing the early releases made me really stop and think). However, I understand that Athearn had 'farmed' the locos through Kato, and it was Kato's first excursion into HO steam. I don't know if Kato has anything to do with the latest Genesis steam offerings from Athearn/Horizon, but if they do, then just watching my Rio Grande 3800 Challenger do its thing on my model railroad has eased my fears, considerably. And my Genesis F-3's are certainly having a ball with my "California Zephyr." For my money, Athearn's buy-out by Horizon has only improved a product that was pretty good to begin with.
So I'm kind of looking forward to new Genesis steam releases--especially if their MT-4 operates anything like my Challenger.
twhite wrote:the latest Genesis steam offerings from Athearn/Horizon, ... watching my Rio Grande 3800 Challenger do its thing on my model railroad has eased my fears, considerably.
Ooops I think we just went off topic.
Texas Zepher wrote: twhite wrote:the latest Genesis steam offerings from Athearn/Horizon, ... watching my Rio Grande 3800 Challenger do its thing on my model railroad has eased my fears, considerably.Mine has still only run from where I put it onto the track over to the programming track. Since then, despite hours of effort, trying many different ideas from the people here on the forum, it hasn't turned a wheel. A $300 paperweight. Until Athearn starts putting in better electronics in my book they are junk junk junk. And don't even get me started on the 4-6-2, 2-8-2, F units, and especially SD70s. I have yet to get a single one that has I was able to use or wasn't damaged straight out of the box. Athearn support people are rude and totally not supportive. Ooops I think we just went off topic.
Well... Not too badly off topic, I think I hear a desire for customer satisfaction. I had my experience with the T1 (Reading) which was my first retail engine that was not acceptable in product performance when it arrived home. My anxiety was a little bit high because here I was with a 350-400 dollar engine that wont work. BLI fixed it and then some after a long 7 week wait. And BOY did they fix it LOL.
Athearn is not the same as they were back in the blue box days I think.
Cracked gears. That gear needs to be made of the finest machined alloy metal or have a third party that does nothing but gears sub out the part machined to fine tolerances. Then we will never see a cracked gear will we? Yes we will see an additional 15 dollars or whatever it costs to equipt the engine with such nice gears. I prefer to pay a dollar for quality instead of 10 dollars to ship it back to the factory.
CAZEPHYR wrote: I like the daylight train and would purchase several of the cars if they had the later lettering. PCM has advertised the early 1941 train and displayed the small Souther Pacific Lines, which is era dated from 1941 to 46. They published a great book with great pictures and details, but were just fishing to see if they could get the orders. I hope they actually get the orders and make the train.
I like the daylight train and would purchase several of the cars if they had the later lettering. PCM has advertised the early 1941 train and displayed the small Souther Pacific Lines, which is era dated from 1941 to 46.
They published a great book with great pictures and details, but were just fishing to see if they could get the orders. I hope they actually get the orders and make the train.
Okay, so start saving because here is what I received yesterday from PCM:
Quote: "We're about to announce a post-war version of the Daylight Train - the 1953 Coast Daylight. This one will not have skirts and will have "Southern Pacific" instead of "Southern Pacific Lines" on the side. I don't have a build date for this yet."
I think that's great and even tough it will be late 08 or even 09 when this will be released I will get me one of those Train sets as well.
Daniel1975 wrote: CAZEPHYR wrote: I like the daylight train and would purchase several of the cars if they had the later lettering. PCM has advertised the early 1941 train and displayed the small Souther Pacific Lines, which is era dated from 1941 to 46. They published a great book with great pictures and details, but were just fishing to see if they could get the orders. I hope they actually get the orders and make the train. Okay, so start saving because here is what I received yesterday from PCM: Quote: "We're about to announce a post-war version of the Daylight Train - the 1953 Coast Daylight. This one will not have skirts and will have "Southern Pacific" instead of "Southern Pacific Lines" on the side. I don't have a build date for this yet." I think that's great and even tough it will be late 08 or even 09 when this will be released I will get me one of those Train sets as well.
I am still hoping they will release a post 46 era with skirts and the large "Southern Pacific" on the cars. This was changed around 1946 and steam pulled the train until January 1955 with the large lettering on it.
It is still my opinion that BLI might not do the train if Athearn gets the San Joaquin Daylight out this summer before BLI actually starts actually work on the molds after the engineering phase. I hope this does not happen as the Coast Daylight would be a very important addition to our industry.
Virginian wrote:Athearn farmed out the construction of the 2-8-2 and the 4-6-2 Genesis locos to Samhongsa. A relatively highly regarded outfit as far as I am concerned. Somebody screwed up on the axle gear, and they could have added some more weight in the design stage, as far as I am concerned. Whether it was Sam directly, or someone they contracted the gear out to, or the guy who made the raw plastic, we will never know. I do know he was not the first, and I daresay he will not be the last, to repeat this same da*n error !
The plastic gear problem has shown up on more than the Genesis 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's. The Proto 2000 models of the Geep had broken gears also. You would not even obligated to run those models to have the broken gear sets. The gear sets had too tight a tollerance for the axles holes and would break just resting in the boxes. I have several of the early Oriental E units that experienced a broken gear set also. Northwest short line made the fix for these.
I would prefer the gear sets to be brass, which is very durable and do make more gear noise, but are much more reliable in the long run. I realize plastic gears are here to stay but they should be larger to offset the plastic breakage.