NCE was a bad buy.

[Stevert]

 

There certainly is one way in which Digitrax expandability is superior to NCE - adding a PC interface. NCR doesn't have an expansion unit for a PC Interface - the Power Pro has the interface built in. How short-sighted of NCE to do that! (To save on initial cost, the NCE Entry Level unit does NOT have a PCE interface).

 

Of course, it should be noted that the Zephyr does not have a built in PC interface either and that the Digitrax PC interface option was quite poor.  Fortunately there are several companies making Digitrax Loconet compatible hardware like the Locobuffer so a Digitrax user is not reliant on Digitrax for all the hardware.

  All very true, although I have used that "quite poor" Digitrax computer interface for some time now, for decoder programming as well as some layout automation and control via JMRI, with absolutely zero problems across several combinations of computer hardware and operating systems.

  However, the important point is that several choices are available for a Zephyr/computer interface whereas the PowerCab folks are still waiting for any computer interface. 

  And although Digitrax's own computer interface hardware may be basic, their implementation is top-notch in that it allows access to all the LocoNet traffic.  Compare this to the ProCab's serial connection, which only shows the command station's own traffic. It doesn't carry traffic from the throttles, radio links, etc.  That obviously limits the usefulness of the serial connection, since the computer can't possibly act on traffic it never sees. 

Steve

[Pruitt]

If we all want to get into specific nit-picks about NCE vs. Digitrax, I'll just say this -

On my wireless NCE system (which performs flawlessly) I can acquire ANY locomotive on my layout without having to "plug in." Heck, I can even program on the programming track without having to plug in! When do you suppose Digitrax will catch up with current technology like that? 

You know, we can do this sort of barb tossing all day, but it doesn't prove anything at all. I checked out several systems before I chose NCE. Each has pros and cons. For me, the ease of use features of NCE (such as the above-mentioned wireless feature) were the deciding factor. For other folks, other factors / features of the systems may have been more important, and that's fine. I also didn't particularly care for the feel of the Digitrax throttle in my hand. Purely a personal preference.

Whatever your choice, however it was made, is not something for me or anyone else to seriously question. It's almost like the argument about best scale. The answer is the same for both arguments- "Best is whatever best suits you."

Service issues, however, are a different beast. If I didn't get good service on the rare occasions I need it from NCE, I'd change systems post-haste (when my wallet could absorb the impact). But I hope I'd give them a few days before I started bashing them publicly...

Pontification complete. Resume Squabbling.

[rrinker]

 Stevert's last paragraph isn't a nit-picking difference. It's extremely critical when it comes to computer automation and signalling. For example, my test panel in JMRI, it actually controls an NCE Switch-It which, naturally, does not have a Loconet connection. I can operate the turnout from the CTC panel. I can operate the turnout from my handheld and the panel updates as well! Can't do this on the other systems.
 As for the wireless plug-in - I think that would be more an issue to the casual 'operator' than the prototype operators. As a prototype operator, you 'get aboard' your train and run it to the terminating destination - there's no need to ever select other locos while en route so no big deal. And the Loconet Hackers group is kicking around ideas for a generic 'belt pack' device that would make any loconet device wirless - kind of a wireless bridge for Loconet. Such a device would work for more than just throttles - see point 1.
 The whole reason I went Digitrax is the Loconet - is IS that much better than what the others have. If you don't plan much in the way of signalling and detection - it probably doesn't matter.

                                               --Randy

[Paul3]

(toungue in cheek)

Brunton,
Ok, howzabout this?  While you can aquire any loco and make consists up without plugging in, how many radio transmitters/receivers do you have to have in order to accomplish this?  I've heard tales that NCE wireless is less than ideal (lots of dead spots requiring multiple transmitters/receivers, etc.).  Also, that NCE throttles require something other than AA's or 9v batteries, right? 

Digitrax radio throttles have little or no dead spots.  My club has a 6300 sq ft. layout room, and we have one UR91 radio receiver.  Also, our DT400's use only a 9v battery that lasts a long time.  At said club, we get brand new alkaline batteries that last for an entire weekend during our 8 hour shows and Open Houses (16 hours total).  And since you can get rechargeables, that's not too shabby.  When's NCE going to catch up with current technology like that? 

Oh, and I hear that NCE just got F9-F12 this year.  DT400's have had that for years.

And I could go on about Transponding, signalling systems, and just when Digitrax wireless throttles first made an appearance compared to NCE's wireless...but do I have to? 

(toungue removed from cheek)

Just a little Digitrax vs. NCE teasing going on there...

Seriously, I've always said that the throttle is the most important issue when deciding a system.  If you like the throttle, you'll overlook any problems with the system that you have.  And if you hate the throttle, you'll never like the system no matter how good it is.  I think we can both agree 100% on that.

Personally, I liked that the Digitrax throttles will fit in a shirt or pants pocket & that they have knobs and push buttons for both speed and direction.  Saying that, the display is not the greatest, nor do the buttons feel the best (a little too squishy and can get stuck down).  NCE's main throttle buttons are better IMHO and so is the display, but it doesn't have knobs and it's not as easy to carry around (again, IMHO).  YMMV.

The point is that if like knobs more than you like a bigger display, perhaps Digitrax is for you.  If you prefer a bigger display over knobs, then perhaps NCE is for you.

Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************

[Stevert]

If we all want to get into specific nit-picks about NCE vs. Digitrax, I'll just say this -

  As you mention later in your post, each system has it's pros and cons.  The discussion had moved to computer interfaces and I merely pointed out the differences between the two approaches.  It may be a nit to you, but it may be of great importance to someone else.  See Randy's reply for an example of  just that.

On my wireless NCE system (which performs flawlessly) I can acquire ANY locomotive on my layout without having to "plug in." Heck, I can even program on the programming track without having to plug in! When do you suppose Digitrax will catch up with current technology like that? 

  Probably never, because it was a conscious decision by Digitrax to have to plug in to acquire a loco.  They consider it to be a safety feature, in that someone can't walk into the layout room with an active  wireless throttle in their back pocket and accidently  take control of a loco.

You know, we can do this sort of barb tossing all day, but it doesn't prove anything at all. I checked out several systems before I chose NCE. Each has pros and cons. For me, the ease of use features of NCE (such as the above-mentioned wireless feature) were the deciding factor. For other folks, other factors / features of the systems may have been more important, and that's fine. I also didn't particularly care for the feel of the Digitrax throttle in my hand. Purely a personal preference.

Well, I still don't consider noting technical or philosophical differences between systems to be "barb tossing".  As I stated in an earlier post in this thread, how will you know which system meets your personal preferences, or your needs, if you don't know the differences between them?

Whatever your choice, however it was made, is not something for me or anyone else to seriously question. It's almost like the argument about best scale. The answer is the same for both arguments- "Best is whatever best suits you."

Agreed.  But for making that choice, I personally would like to have facts instead of FUD.

Service issues, however, are a different beast. If I didn't get good service on the rare occasions I need it from NCE, I'd change systems post-haste (when my wallet could absorb the impact). But I hope I'd give them a few days before I started bashing them publicly...

I agree with that as well.

Pontification complete. Resume Squabbling.

Steve

Edit:  Fixed typo.

[Anonymous]

Tstage : I find it hard to believe that my "purpose" in life is to correct the NCE corporate structure.  Bigger fish to fry in life than that.  My purpose of this thread was simply to provide another view of NCE customer service to those who visit this discussion board.  Do a search on NCE and this will be the first negative in a hundred positives on NCE customer service.  I  am not under any delusion that this thread will put NCE out of business (nor would I want to) or make hundreds not buy their systems but it may provide another view before they purchase.  People should hear both pro and con.

Pondini : I have not "given up" on DCC.  But I think I stated it, if I can't get DCC up and running going back to DC for a couple of weeks would be better than no operation at all.  As it is, even with all the frustration, I see DCC as the way to go.

As for returning the system, the 30 days have passed.  I really thought I would have the time to spend on the set up before the end of the 30 days but other things demanded my time.

Being that I chose a starter system, I was not under any misimpression that I might have to upgrade.  I was hoping that I could learn more about DCC by using it than just reading about it.  That still will happen but if we upgrade I get the feeling it will not be with NCE.

Finally :  Thank you to all who have provided help.  It has gotten some of the show stoppers corrected.  I still have some questions but I think I will try another venue provided by you.

I did not intend for this to become a Digitrax V. NCE debate but I guess one can control that BUT please stop bringing Tony's Trains into the discussion.  I did not buy the system from them so they do not need to be bashed.

I guess 'nuff said.

[alco_fan]

It's now two days into the week. I'm trying to figure out why you haven't called NCE to get your problem solved. You seem to have time to keep this thread going, along with it's inflammatory title

You say you want people to hear both pro an con, but I see only "con" from you so far.

For the record, lots of people in my area use NCE, it works great for them. It's especially nice not to have to plug in to select a loco. Service has been great, they say.

It's so typical for people to recklessly use this list to blast a manufacturer, then not take responsibility for following up.

[alco_fan]

  Probably never, because it was a conscious decision by Digitrax to have to plug in to acquire a loco.  They consider it to be a safety feature, in that someone can't walk into the layout room with an active  wireless throttle in their back pocket and accidently  take control of a loco.

Calling this Digitrax product limitation a "safety feature" is a true triumph of marketing over common sense. But rave on, children!

[Anonymous]

It's now two days into the week. I'm trying to figure out why you haven't called NCE to get your problem solved. You seem to have time to keep this thread going, along with it's inflammatory title

You say you want people to hear both pro an con, but I see only "con" from you so far.

For the record, lots of people in my area use NCE, it works great for them. It's especially nice not to have to plug in to select a loco. Service has been great, they say.

It's so typical for people to recklessly use this list to blast a manufacturer, then not take responsibility for following up.

Because I live in NJ but I sitting in Michigan today.  Little difficult to go over a problem when the problem is miles away.  When I get back home on Friday I will try again. 

[alco_fan]

[Because I live in NJ but I sitting in Michigan today.  Little difficult to go over a problem when the problem is miles away.  When I get back home on Friday I will try again. 

No phones in Michigan? At least you could talk to them about the customer service issues you claim instread of just letting the bashing roll on and on.

But whatever floats your boat, man.

[tstage]

Actually Ill go Digitrax. Much better product.

Bigiron,

Which DCC system you choose is your prerogative.  And determining which one is the best fit for both you and your needs is wise shopping and how you ought to approach any purchase.  But to say that (any brand) is a far superior product?  Sorry, no.  In my opinion, that statement is just totally off base...

Tom

  Sorry, but I respectfully disagree that such a statement is off base.  There are lots of similar posts scattered throughout these forums, about DCC systems as well as myriad other products.  After all, why does one buy a given brand instead of any other?  Certainly not because that person believes they are all equal.  If that were the case they'd never be able to choose.   If I had any problem with bigiron's post, it would be to challenge him to explain why he thinks (any brand) is a much better product.

Steve

Steve,

I respectfully agree with you for the most part.  Allowing others to share their opinions and experiences is what makes this forum a terrific place to come to.  And I have learned so much by just hanging around here these past couple of years.

I can understand and respect someone (e.g. Bigiron) choosing or liking a DCC system, or thinking one is "better" than another because it either has the features or capabilities or ergonomics that he or she is looking for or desires.  My problem had more to do with the addition of the adjective "much".  That implies that one system is far superior to/far inferior to another system.

Personally, I see all DCC systems having their pros and cons; their advantages and disadvantages.  Our objective as modelers is to determine which of those "pros" we absolutely want or need to have and what "cons" we can "live with".  At their core, all DCC systems are able to individually control a locomotive's direction, speed, lighting, and [some] sound features.  To me, that in itself constitutes a "good" operating system and a preference over running trains on DC.  I totally agree that some DCC systems do do certain things better than other DCC systems.  But - in general - much better?  That's the word that bothered me the most...and the one that Bigiron later stated that he should have rephrased.

And, Steve, your last point is well taken and I almost did as you prescribed.  But at the time I was writing my response, I was struggling to put my thoughts into words - which probably should have been an good indication that it would have been much wiser for me to wait until morning before responding to Bigiron's statement.   As I apologized to Bigiron, I was wrong for coming across a bit terse in response to him.

Tom

[Pruitt]

 Stevert's last paragraph isn't a nit-picking difference. It's extremely critical when it comes to computer automation and signalling. For example, my test panel in JMRI, it actually controls an NCE Switch-It which, naturally, does not have a Loconet connection. I can operate the turnout from the CTC panel. I can operate the turnout from my handheld and the panel updates as well! Can't do this on the other systems.
                                               --Randy

You just made my point for me, Randy - factors important to one are unimportant to another. But you think I can't throw turnouts from my hand-held controller on my NCE? You're right - I haven't implemented that because I use hand throws for most switches. NCE certainly will do that, however, without something called a "Loconet" (seems to be aptly named - you'd be "Loco" to want to use that Net. JUST KIDDING!!).

Ok, howzabout this?  While you can aquire any loco and make consists up without plugging in, how many radio transmitters/receivers do you have to have in order to accomplish this?  I've heard tales that NCE wireless is less than ideal (lots of dead spots requiring multiple transmitters/receivers, etc.).  Also, that NCE throttles require something other than AA's or 9v batteries, right? 

I have one receiver, Paul3. Reads from the entire basement. I've heard others have problems though. I don't. I think my throttles use AA batteries, but it may be AAA. They last so long I don't remember!

And I could go on about Transponding, signalling systems, and just when Digitrax wireless throttles first made an appearance compared to NCE's wireless...but do I have to? 

No, you don't have to, actually. Digitrax was there well before NCE. They pioneered it; NCE just corrected their implementation.

Well, I still don't consider noting technical or philosophical differences between systems to be "barb tossing".  As I stated in an earlier post in this thread, how will you know which system meets your personal preferences, or your needs, if you don't know the differences between them?

Depends on the tone of the discussion whether it's "barb tossing" or not. Right now it's pretty good-natured discussion and some mostly playful little jabs at one another's choices (which is a whole lotta fun, until someone takes it personal). A couple pages ago it was closer to barb tossing, I think. But maybe I read the tone wrong.

More seriously:

I find it hard to believe that my "purpose" in life is to correct the NCE corporate structure. 

Give me a break! NCE is a company of a mere handful of people. "Corporate Structure?" Sheesh! I hope you're as perfect as you seem to expect everyone else to be, but I doubt it. Nobody's that perfect. You seem pretty angry and intolerant of other's possible shortcomings.

[jnichols]

Geeezzz, I can't believe I missed another NCE vs. Digitrax tussle... Normally I like to get right in the middle of these, but alas I've been out of town for several days and without internet so what can I say... Anyway, I have read through most of the posts that seemed to have any meat on them, and again I feel the NCE guys are missing the whole Loconet concept and the staggering amount of cool things that topology allows you to do. Even worse are the arguements against the Zephyr. I have said this before and I will say it again, there isn't another "starter" DCC command station on the market that can even touch the Zephry from a cost to features standpoint, and when you throw in the expandability this product offers, it separates itself even further from the pack.

Having now played with the NCE Power Cab for a week or two, I still think the Zephyr is a better option. While there are several key limits to the Power Cab (lack of zero stretching, no dedicated programming track and no serial connection to name a few), there are virtually none with the Zephyr besides the slot count which is mute on all but club sized layouts.

Now I realize I'm chiming in late, but I figured my two cents worth couldn't hurt...

Jeff

[cmrproducts]

As quoted on the NCE forum post – Tony Koester on his layout is using 9 antennas.  And Jim Scorse (NCE), recommends using 15- ft. radius circles of coverage.

Now why would NCE recommend this way if the radio system was as good as everyone says it is?

I have a basement layout covering 2200 sq ft (25 x 75 plus an addition) and am only using 3 receivers and have 2800 feet of track down.  There are several backdrops that are full height (benchwork to the drop ceiling) and are at odd angles to the long way of the basement.  So the radios have quite a time going through all of the backdrops, the metal in the ceiling (drop ceiling and metal beams above the ceiling), plus having 20 plus operators in the layout room.

And as for having to plug into to program and acquire engines, why on the NCE forums does everyone suggest that they do this rather than doing it unplugged?

I can OPs Mode (POM) program UNPLUGGED with my Digitrax Radio system all of my engines and with the BLI, Proto, Atlas engines I have verbal read-back so I don’t have to look at the keypad to see if it took.

It is nice to say one system is better than another but when one really gets into the everyday running of the systems there are so few differences it is not worth even talking about, but some still try!

BOB H – Clarion, PA