NCE was a bad buy.

[spidge]

On point # 2, even though you have to enter the short address you don't have to activate it. Then you can go forward and program the long address, and  activate it without concern for confusing the consist numbering.

[Anonymous]

Sorry you're having trouble. As with some others who've posted here, I've had have the older PowerHouse Pro system for several years, with no trouble at all. As it was my first DCC system, I can't say whether I find it easier than others.

I did call NCE once, and was quite pleased with their response.

Please don't let this sour your opinion of DCC in general or NCE in particular. But I do agree with the post that you should let their management know about it.

I suspect anybody's first system, whatever it is, takes some getting used to. There's a fair-size "learning curve" just starting into DCC. The NCE now feels quite comfy to me, and I suspect it will to you soon, also.

And to those claiming you picked the "wrong" system, that's just their personal opinion -- you'll find at least as many who think it's the "right" system. In reality, most are quite good, and quite reliable. Some like the features of one but hate the way another operates.

One other point -- who did you buy the system from? If one of the major DCC dealers, call them. I know for a fact that Tony's provides super support for anything they sell (that's where I've bought a lot of stuff), and hear similar good things about Litchfield Station and some of the others. As with NCE, they're not major organizations, so sometimes you have to hold or let them call you back, but they absolutely will.

And in some situations, they may be actually be better able to help, especially if it's not clear whether the problem is in the NCE system or the decoder, since

Hang in there!

[Anonymous]

On point # 2, even though you have to enter the short address you don't have to activate it. Then you can go forward and program the long address, and  activate it without concern for confusing the consist numbering.

Thanks. That is what I have done.  So hopefully this controller will not get goofed up when I used the same short for the consist. 

obtw,  how do you enter a short address like "23"?  Leading zeros or some other character?  When I enter 23 or 023, it tells me that it is invalid.

[Anonymous]

Ok, now for some updates. I didn't get much of a chance to work on all your suggestions do to some other family issues.  But here it what happened today.

Problem 1:  Now forward is forward and reverse is reverse.  No idea why the change.  I think it has something to do with consists but I don't know yet.  There are no arrows on the display.  You get FWD and REV.  I get the feeling this is not like a DC controller where direction is based on the wiring and engine position.

Problem 2: Still confused

Problem 3: I am really going to have to play with consists on the system.  I don't know if you can use the engines separately once they have been assigned to a consist.  Right now I don't have the time to mess with this so consist are off limits until we can spend an afternoon playing around with them.

Problem 4:  Still getting loco numbers that I've never entered.

Problem 5:  Somehow doing an universal reset maybe in order before I start adding new locos.

Problem 6:  I need time to play with this more.  I'm getting partial shutdowns but still can't get the engines to "tuen off"

As for the CV stuff, didn't have time today.  Will try next week.  On the road again tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help and input.

[spidge]

 Problem # 1

Yes, in DCC forward is programed when you do the initial setup on the decoder.

 Problem 2: Still confused

On my layout I generally cancel a consist if not in use. This takes away the problem of the system grabing both units when you call one of the locos to use independantly.

Problem # 3,

Its better to not even try.Just cancell the consist comlettely before using the units indipendently.

problem # 4.

I have this problem to. I just dial the loco I want and its behind me the rest of the time, but yes it is a bit anoying.

Problrm #5,

Eliminate all possibilities then you can go forward and not thinl about what you may have done wrong weeks or days ago.

Problem #6,

Sorry, I don't have any sound yet.Maybe Christmas.

There are so many CV possibilities it could drive you nuts. The best case senario is to have computor programing but powercab does not have the capability yet. You may go a bit nuts breaking them all down but key in on those that are important to you and it will reduce the meny changes everytime there is a problem.

 

P>S> Its good to see you are hanging in there.

[Anonymous]

Problem 1:  Now forward is forward and reverse is reverse.  No idea why the change.  I think it has something to do with consists but I don't know yet.  There are no arrows on the display.  You get FWD and REV.  I get the feeling this is not like a DC controller where direction is based on the wiring and engine position.

That is exactly right.  The command station sends either "fwd" or "rev" instructions to the decoder. It is the decoder in each engine that determines which way to turn the motor. 

Problem 3: I am really going to have to play with consists on the system.  I don't know if you can use the engines separately once they have been assigned to a consist.  Right now I don't have the time to mess with this so consist are off limits until we can spend an afternoon playing around with them.

Also correct.  Well, mostly.  When an engine is in a consist, it only responds to speed and direction commands sent to the consist address, ignoring any sent to the individual engine address.

But it may respond to other types of commands, such as lights and sounds, sent to the individual engine address (depending on some other settings in CVs 21 and 22 that you'll get to eventually).

The combination of these facts is how you can have a consist of, say, two diesels, one facing forward and one facing backward, and tell the consist to go forward or backwards.


It sounds to me like you need to spend some time with the manual that came with your system.  Take one thing at a time, though:  trying to figure out all this stuff can get very involved and confusing.  The manual that came with my PowerHousePro system is very complete, well-explained, and usable, so I'd guess the one you have is similar.

But DCC gets complex, so take it in small pieces, and you'll be fine.

And, when you get stuck (and you will), call NCE or Tony's or search this forum or the NCE forum on Yahoo, etc., and/or post a question.  As  you've seen, lots of folks will respond and help you figure out what's going on.    That's because ALL of us have been through the "learning curve", too!

[Anonymous]

It sounds to me like you need to spend some time with the manual that came with your system.  Take one thing at a time, though:  trying to figure out all this stuff can get very involved and confusing.  The manual that came with my PowerHousePro system is very complete, well-explained, and usable, so I'd guess the one you have is similar.

Read the manual.....Well I have tried but it's written in a version of English they did not teach me in school.  It starts out understandable then just words with no real meaning to each other.

[Don Z]

I would suggest that until you master the art of programming and running a single locomotive proficiently, you should refrain from trying to do advanced features such as multiple loco consists. If you are finding the manual difficult to understand, take the advice of those here that are knowledgeable and call Tony's to ask them for their help in resolving your issues.

Prior to this past Thursday, I had absolutely no exposure to DCC other than what I've read here on this forum. I went to a friend's house and used his NCE system to program the long address into my new Tower 55 locomotives I just purchased. I glanced at the manual regarding programming on the program track, followed the screens and was able to program both locomotives with their respective road numbers. I was then able to program the two of them into a consist with no trouble. If I can do this, anybody should be able to do so.

I would strongly recommend that you program on the programming track and not the mainline. Some locomotives are just a little fussy about programming on the main.

Blasting the manufacturer of a DCC system because you can't instantly run consists, etc is a cheap shot in my opinion and could unduly influence people who have yet to decide on a DCC system to purchase. At the very least, you should alter your thread title to a more appropriate reflection of the issue you are experiencing.

Off

Don Z.

[rrinker]

Ok, now for some updates. I didn't get much of a chance to work on all your suggestions do to some other family issues.  But here it what happened today.

Problem 1:  Now forward is forward and reverse is reverse.  No idea why the change.  I think it has something to do with consists but I don't know yet.  There are no arrows on the display.  You get FWD and REV.  I get the feeling this is not like a DC controller where direction is based on the wiring and engine position.

 Exactly - repalce the arrows in my description with the FWD and REV text. It's the decoder that handles the actual direction control. If you've connected a decoder backwards usign the 8-pin plug, it will run opposite the directionr eadings. Some locos run the wrong way because the manufacturer builds them to run a certain way but road name X ran them the other way. If the decoder is plugged in backwards just flip the plug, if not you will have to read up on CV29.

Problem 2: Still confused

 23 and 023 are NOT the same address in NCE. 023 is a long address (also known as a 4 digit address - because it's 4 hexidecimal digits long, obviously not 4 decimal digits). Again, which address is used is controlled by the value in CV29. You do not need to know how to program CV29 to set this up though, the NCE controlelr will walk you through this. If you put in 023, when it prompts for the address type you have to select long. If you put in 23, you need to select short address while going through the program steps. If you cross this up, you will not be able to address the loco on the address you think it is.

Problem 3: I am really going to have to play with consists on the system.  I don't know if you can use the engines separately once they have been assigned to a consist.  Right now I don't have the time to mess with this so consist are off limits until we can spend an afternoon playing around with them.

 Good idea. Once you get the hang of settign up and running individual locos, then try consisting.  In general, once part of a consist, you can't run the loco by itself until you break up the consist. There are exceptions.

Problem 4:  Still getting loco numbers that I've never entered.

 Have no idea on that one - I thought Tom (tstage) had this problem with his PowerCab as well

Problem 5:  Somehow doing an universal reset maybe in order before I start adding new locos.

 Always a good idea when things start acting screwy. Also, with a new decoder, see if it has an option for a factory reset. If so - do this, even if it is a brand new decoder that was sealed in the package. It can't hurt and sometimes, rarely, a brand new decoder has some odd settings in CVs you don't ordinarily mess around with, remnents of factory testing I'd guess for the most part. Reseting the decoder before starting any programming avoids wierd issues like this.

Problem 6:  I need time to play with this more.  I'm getting partial shutdowns but still can't get the engines to "tuen off"

 With QSI equipped locos like BLI, all bets are off. They have their own set of quirks whicha re not the fault of the DCC system you have. Programmign addresses int hem can be problematic, there is a section in the QSI manual that shows how to program using their indexed CVs if 'normal' programming like other decoders does not work. Some systems handle them with no problems - I've had no issues programming QSI with my Digitrax Zephyr, and peopel with the Super EMpire Builder report no problems, but the Super Chief (the top of  the line Digitrax system) users have limited success. Go figure.
 When QSI says 'double click' a function, it means hit the button FOUR times. On-Off, On-Off. I don't think the interval between 'clicks' is configurable like the double click speed of a mouse in Windows. It's kind of hit or miss, I haven't been able to reliably get the multiple-click functions to work either.

As for the CV stuff, didn't have time today.  Will try next week.  On the road again tomorrow.

Thanks for all your help and input.

[bigiron]

In my opinion if a company ( Digitrax, NCE....etc) is willing to make a highly technical product and release that product for sale to the general public and charge the exuberant prices they charge, the company should provide technical service on a daily basis seven days a week. I'm not saying 24/7, but maybe 8-5/7. Sure, they may be a mom and pop outfit, but they have a responsiblity to the customer. If it wasn't for the customer making the purchase they would out of business. Sure, it's nice they all went to a picnic and they get off early when it's slow....etc....but again they have a so called written policy to furnish technical support for my $300-$700 purchase. Some folks here are sympathetic but this is a business and I'm a paying customer. Actually Ill go Digitrax. Much better product.

[james saunders]

Oh man that's too bad, I was actually considering NCE if I converted to DCC.
I hope you can get it all sorted out  soon!

[tstage]

Actually Ill go Digitrax. Much better product.

Bigiron,

Which DCC system you choose is your prerogative.  And determining which one is the best fit for both you and your needs is wise shopping and how you ought to approach any purchase.  But to say that Digitrax is a far superior product?  Sorry, no.  In my opinion, that statement is just totally off base...

Tom

[bigiron]

Tom,

Let me rephrase that.... "I'll go with Digitrax..... the competitor." I should have known better than to add the part about the "better product."  Someday I'll learn to think before I type.

(3:16)

[Anonymous]

Blasting the manufacturer of a DCC system because you can't instantly run consists, etc is a cheap shot in my opinion and could unduly influence people who have yet to decide on a DCC system to purchase. At the very least, you should alter your thread title to a more appropriate reflection of the issue you are experiencing.

Don Z.

The technical issues being discussed here are not the reason for my upset with NCE.  The discussion is happening because people here are doing what NCE should have been doing.

Maybe if you read the first post, you would know I'm blasting NCE because of the lack of customer support.  This support is suppose to be one of their big reason to buy their system.  Bigiron nailed the issue in a nutshell.  And whether it is a big company or small, sexist, racist or any other such comment is NEVER appropriate.

[modelmaker51]

I bought my NCE Procab about 2 months ago and I am very impressed with the system and the support.

When I first got started, I spent about 2 hours on the phone over 3 calls with their tech having things explained to me. He seemed genuinely happy to help a dummie like me get the system up and running. I called on a wednesday and a friday and was talking to human being by the third ring.

As far as digitrax goes, it's ok, but I find it a bit clunky to operate and NCE's expandabillity is superior.

I think a lot of people forget this technology is not like a simple DC powerpack. It's a lot more like setting up a new computer system, (which is of course exactly what it is), there almost always some glitches when you first set one up, but they do get worked out. And DCC technology is only in its adolesence so far.

As far as outrageous prices go, have you seen what they're charging for palm devices and laptops these days? I spent $500 on my computer originally, but now after upgrades and additional storage devices, I'm well over $2000. The same goes for DCC, the cost all depends on what "bells and whistles" you get (pun intended).

 

[simon1966]

As far as digitrax goes, it's ok, but I find it a bit clunky to operate and NCE's expandabillity is superior.

I think you will find a lot of Digitrax users disagree with your statement that expandability with NCE is superior.  Expandability is one of the strong suits of Digitrax.  Digitrax has one of the largest ranges of DCC add-ons including signalling systems.  A basic Zephyr starter set can have any and all of the Digitrax add-ons functioning as an integrated system.  I have already added a 5 amp booster for more power, a PC interface, wireless control and 3 extra DCC throttles as well as 2 old analog DC packs to provide additional control.  I am curious in what way NCE expandability is superior?

[skiloff]

Oh man that's too bad, I was actually considering NCE if I converted to DCC.
I hope you can get it all sorted out  soon!

I would hope that you would take this incident in context of the bigger picture.  I guarantee you there are people that will have "horror" stories about every system out there.  I've decided to go NCE when I upgrade to DCC in the next year and this has not changed my opinion.  I don't expect to have everything perfect right out of the box.  There is a learning curve for me.  While I understand Gumby's frustration with the support, that in itself does not change my decision to go NCE.

[tstage]

Tom,

Let me rephrase that.... "I'll go with Digitrax..... the competitor." I should have known better than to add the part about the "better product."  Someday I'll learn to think before I type.

(3:16)

Bigiron,

That's okay.  Forgive me for being a bit terse in my response.

Tom

[Anonymous]

The technical issues being discussed here are not the reason for my upset with NCE.  The discussion is happening because people here are doing what NCE should have been doing.

Maybe if you read the first post, you would know I'm blasting NCE because of the lack of customer support.  This support is suppose to be one of their big reason to buy their system.  Bigiron nailed the issue in a nutshell.  And whether it is a big company or small, sexist, racist or any other such comment is NEVER appropriate.

You're absolutely right about a sexist, racist, etc., remark.  Surely you got the name of the person who made it, and reported it to NCE?


And to this and other posts about NCE and others being small companies and unable or unwilling to provide instant support, you're also entirely correct.  I myself vastly prefer to deal with a big company like, say, Microsoft or the old AT&T.   I love their eight-level phone trees, then spending at least 20 minutes listening to hype about their products with the occasional reminder of how important my call is (not important enough for them to have enough people to actually answer it, though).   And the reps, especially those in India, are nearly always very polite and helpful, even if I have to ask some of them to repeat themselves two or three times so I can understand their accent.  But the best part, of course, is when they charge you for the delightful experience of finding a way around something THEY messed-up!

But seriously, your experience has clearly soured you on NCE in particular, and perhaps DCC in general.  Surely someone with your expectations checked the return policy of your vendor (Tony's has an unconditional money-back guarantee, but I don't know about the others), so why don't you just return it?

[Anonymous]

Um, you what? Expected customer service from ANYBODY on a Friday in summer? And you wanted a PERSON on the phone?

Maybe an email would get a faster response. NCE is a great little company, but the emphasis is on little. I think they have one guy who does all the support/cusomter service calls. Whilst I never have problems getting to them by phone I tend to try calling mid-morning on Monday or Tuesday.

John

[tstage]

Gumby,

I think that NCE (or any company) deserves, at the very least, a second chance and an opportunity to explain themselves.  When you talk to them, I would encourage you to do the following:

1. Accurately explain your present situation with your Power Cab.
   
2. Tell them calmly about what you experienced over the phone on Friday and allow them to explain what happened.
   
3. Share with them what you've already tried to do to rectify the problems that you are experiencing.
4. If you aren't satisfied with their response, return the product to your LHS for a refund.

Sometimes we don't always know or see the whole picture.  I know that similar experiences have been shared by others here on the forum where a simple phone has changed a seemingly "bad" experience with a manufacturer or vendor into a "pleasant" or positive one.  They deserve a chance to explain themselves.

Lastly,  I want to encourage you to review the verse you have referenced in your signature:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

If you truly believe the two verses prior to this one, perhaps...this may be a "good work" that the Lord has prepared for you to "walk in".   They deserve a 2nd chance...

Tom

[Anonymous]

As far as digitrax goes, it's ok, but I find it a bit clunky to operate and NCE's expandabillity is superior.

I think you will find a lot of Digitrax users disagree with your statement that expandability with NCE is superior.  Expandability is one of the strong suits of Digitrax.  Digitrax has one of the largest ranges of DCC add-ons including signalling systems.  A basic Zephyr starter set can have any and all of the Digitrax add-ons functioning as an integrated system.  I have already added a 5 amp booster for more power, a PC interface, wireless control and 3 extra DCC throttles as well as 2 old analog DC packs to provide additional control.  I am curious in what way NCE expandability is superior?

That is one reason I purchased the Chief, all that is present without having to expand a smaller system with more money.

But, I may purchase the Zephyr later for a switching yard and connect THAT to the loconet easily as a seperate power district.

Apologies to others for a cross thread post. I try to avoid those.

[ClinchValleySD40]

Strange.   I've had a NCE system for years.  No problems (other than what I created myself) and support has been nothing short of top notch.

 

[CAZEPHYR]

Strange.   I've had a NCE system for years.  No problems (other than what I created myself) and support has been nothing short of top notch.

I like you reply.  Many of the problems we get into are ones we created.   The DCC installations can bring up some capacitance problems in layouts if everything is not correct and many other factors can add to problems.   We do need help sometimes and that is the issue for this post if I understand it correctly. 

I normally do not get technical support any moment of the day or week and even had to wait a day or so for some of my requests.

This problem could have happened with any system and probably any technical support group.  They are all human and are small time compared to GM or Ford which are both almost bankrupt.      

[locoi1sa]

  If your saying NCE was a bad buy than tell me of a system with the power cabs capability at less than $140.00.
Again another posting bashing a HOBBY company for not giving you support like your life depended on it. I M O Unless you make a living at model railroading and fast support and customer service puts food on your table and pays your bills than its not that important to wait a little for customer service.As for the digitrax guys bashing NCE I could tell ya something about there waranty system they wouldnt like to hear. I use a Power cab at home and love it I also use Lenz at the club. I have decoders from every maker of DCC products and the only thing I can say for any manufacture is that I had 2 digitrax plug and play decoders fry on the program track and they wanted more money to fix them than buy new! Obviosly there was no waranty on them even though they claim 1 year. Ive ask them how and why they fried and they said miss instaled. I then asked how I could missinstal a Pand P decoder and got no response. But yet i have bought more decoders from them and had no problems since.
  All Im saying is try to work the problems first before ya call. If ya had a flat tire would ya call goodyear first or just change it and be on your way?
  As for the comments from the phone call Did you let the person know you were upset over it and would like a more profesional conversation? Some people are just insesitive to some feelings and some people are just stupid. The change from the cashier today was 11 cents  He counted 11 pennies and handed them to me. I told him a dime and a penny would have been the same but i got that deer in the headlite look. Ya another that shouldnt be able to breed.
 wow long winded today 

[grayfox1119]

I am not going to try to analyze what may or may not have been programmed wrong with the NCE, but what I would like to say is.........many people hate to read manuals. They choose to delve right into the hook-up and programming and away we go. I have helped my own children mnay times, to set up audio and video equipment at home because of the "dad, it's not working" syndrome. My question to them, " did you read the install manual"? Of course not!!!
Even if you "did" read the manual, we have ALL missed things the first time around with instruction manuals because we tend to interpret things differently than the author, who thinks he/she is being very clear.

As for NCE or any vendor, it would be be very foolish to judge them on one problem, especially a small vendor. It takes a "pattern" of such mishaps, especially from others also to support the claim, in order to judge a vendor as "bad".

As an example, I read on this forum about a2 years ago, where one modeler was slamming Tony's Trains ( Tony in particular ) at the Big E Train show in Springfield, Ma, because he didn't give him the service and prices that he wanted at show. I didn't know much about Tony's Trains at that time, but I was very interested because of his knowledge and product he sells regarding DCC. So when I was on vacation later that year, I visited Tony's in Essex Junction Vt, about a 250 mile ride for me. I found him very helpful in helping me choose my DCC system ( NCE Wireless) as well as some loco and a few other tems. His people gave me demos of the equipment, let me try it myself, and has been very helpful also via email and phone from time to time.
Now if I had listened to this "more expert than myself at the time" person, I might have never had the great experiences that I have had with Tony.

We can control what "we" say and do,but we cannot control others.

[Pruitt]

All sorts of intersting comments here, isn't there?

I've had occasion to call and talk to NCE about problems, or just with questions, and they were very helpful.

I think you will find a lot of Digitrax users disagree with your statement that expandability with NCE is superior.  Expandability is one of the strong suits of Digitrax.  Digitrax has one of the largest ranges of DCC add-ons including signalling systems.  A basic Zephyr starter set can have any and all of the Digitrax add-ons functioning as an integrated system.  I have already added a 5 amp booster for more power, a PC interface, wireless control and 3 extra DCC throttles as well as 2 old analog DC packs to provide additional control.  I am curious in what way NCE expandability is superior?

There certainly is one way in which Digitrax expandability is superior to NCE - adding a PC interface. NCE doesn't have an expansion unit for a PC Interface - the Power Pro has the interface built in. How short-sighted of NCE to do that! (To save on initial cost, the NCE Entry Level unit does NOT have a PCE interface).

 

[tstage]

There certainly is one way in which Digitrax expandability is superior to NCE - adding a PC interface. NC[E} doesn't have an expansion unit for a PC Interface - the Power Pro has the interface built in. How short-sighted of NCE to do that! (To save on initial cost, the NCE Entry Level unit does NOT have a PCE interface).

 

Mark,

You are correct and I would agree.  NCE is working on a USB port interface for the Power Cab.  But, as Joe pointed out, they usually run behind schedule has far as getting things out the door.  Along with the Smart Booster, that is one feature than I am eager for them to release.

Tom

[simon1966]

 

There certainly is one way in which Digitrax expandability is superior to NCE - adding a PC interface. NCR doesn't have an expansion unit for a PC Interface - the Power Pro has the interface built in. How short-sighted of NCE to do that! (To save on initial cost, the NCE Entry Level unit does NOT have a PCE interface).

 

Of course, it should be noted that the Zephyr does not have a built in PC interface either and that the Digitrax PC interface option was quite poor.  Fortunately there are several companies making Digitrax Loconet compatible hardware like the Locobuffer so a Digitrax user is not reliant on Digitrax for all the hardware.

[Stevert]

Actually Ill go Digitrax. Much better product.

Bigiron,

Which DCC system you choose is your prerogative.  And determining which one is the best fit for both you and your needs is wise shopping and how you ought to approach any purchase.  But to say that (any brand) is a far superior product?  Sorry, no.  In my opinion, that statement is just totally off base...

Tom

  Sorry, but I respectfully disagree that such a statement is off base.  There are lots of similar posts scattered throughout these forums, about DCC systems as well as myriad other products.  After all, why does one buy a given brand instead of any other?  Certainly not because that person believes they are all equal.  If that were the case they'd never be able to choose.   If I had any problem with bigiron's post, it would be to challenge him to explain why he thinks (any brand) is a much better product.

Steve