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FORUM CLINIC: Building realistic scenery

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Posted by electrolove on Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:46 AM
Joe, I don't think it matters if your ideas is complete new or not. The importent thing here is that you have a lot of experience and you love to share it with us all. Many thanks to you for letting me and others learn from you.

I used to work as a webdesign teacher and it was the same thing there. 99% of the things I teached other students was things that I have learned from someone that was better then me. And maybe 1% was my own ideas. And when my students finally have learned all the nice Photoshop graphics that I can do, someone did it a slighly different and better way. I think that's what's called evolution. A nice thing [:D]

Thanks again Joe and keep the good stuff comming.
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Posted by CNJ831 on Thursday, April 28, 2005 8:32 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

You can use basswood or balsa wood for structures and they have reasonably tight grain. But it's pretty well recognized these days in the hobby that styrene makes more realistic models of wood structures in HO and smaller because it holds fine detail very well, better than real wood.


While I applaud your efforts in this on-line clinic and recognize your talents as a modeler, I have to take marked exception to your statement above. As someone who has scratcbuilt many HO contest structures and has been acquainted with many other such scratch modelers, I'd have to say that nearly all continue to use wood to represent wood in their structure models. Those adept at using styrene to model wood are definitely the exception in the hobby and most would say that it is far easier to represent a tired and weathered wooden prototype using actual wood than it would be to do so with styrene. If nothing else, consider that all the finest craftsman structure kits are still made in wood, not styrene.

CNJ831
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:44 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

You can use basswood or balsa wood for structures and they have reasonably tight grain. But it's pretty well recognized these days in the hobby that styrene makes more realistic models of wood structures in HO and smaller because it holds fine detail very well, better than real wood.


While I applaud your efforts in this on-line clinic and recognize your talents as a modeler, I have to take marked exception to your statement above.

CNJ831


CN:

You probably know better than I do in this area, since I never build any structures out of wood these days ... everything including scratchbuilt I do with styrene. Once I discovered how easy styrene is to work with and how strong the resulting structure is, I started using styrene for everything and haven't looked back.

I know that the one still very craftsman oriented magazine in the hobby, Mainline Modeler, shows all their structures built with styrene ... I can't recall the last time they showed a structure built from wood.

So I stand corrected. [B)] I'll just happily keep using my styrene and invite others who may not have tried the material to give it a try.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by n2mopac on Thursday, April 28, 2005 11:45 AM
I just want to chime in for a moment on the above comments by Tom and responses to him. I have read Dave Frary's book, and it is excellent. Some of Joe's techniques discussed here are the same as Mr. Frary's, but many are quite different. Perhaps all of them have been covered in the pages of MR over the past 70 years, but I personally do not have access to all 70 years of MR, though I have read it avidly for the past 10. Some ot the techniques discussed are completely new to me or are new twists on old ones. The refreshing thing about this clinic to me, however, is the interaction. Joe discusses his technique, then others tell how they do it differently, and there is dialogue--not argument, but discussion--and that is quite helpful. I for one, though I have used certain scenery thchniques for years, have picked up a few nuggets that I have already tried or look forward to trying next time I have the opportunity. Mostly, however, I have enjoyed hearing the variety of techiniques and twists shared by many here and even putting in my 2 cents woth from time to time. Thanks again Joe and all for making this an enjoyable clinic. I look forward to many more.

Ron

Owner and superintendant of the N scale Texas Colorado & Western Railway, a protolanced representaion of the BNSF from Fort Worth, TX through Wichita Falls TX and into Colorado. 

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:01 PM
I've read Frary's book. I've read an earlier one written in the 50's. I've learned that rocks can be made from cast plaster from rocks, plaster on card board, foam, hemasote, plaster on foam, drywall mud, ceiling tiles, plaster in tin foil, and probably a half dozen more I haven't thought of just now.

The point is, I expect that all those techniques have their place and depending on the situation, each of the techniques just might be the best technique available. Since I am new at this, it helps to view as many options as possible, so that when it comes time to build a rock formation, I can either use India ink to fill in the shadows, or I can start with a base coat with black, or I can brush diluted black paint into the crevasses and wipe off the outer surfaces.

If you have a single tried and true plan and it works, fine. But you are limiting your creativity to your methods. I prefer options.

Chip

Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.

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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:14 PM
I agree that Dave Frary's techniques are great ... I have his book and all his videos. Many of my techniques I got from him ... and several I have modified with my own personal twist.

I'm with Spacemouse, however ... the more techniques I'm aware of the more options I have -- and I like options. And like each of us, I have formed preferences over the years from trying lots of things. This clinic has been a presentation of my preferences based on trying lots of different ways over nearly 40 years in the hobby.

I don't expect everyone will like the way I do it, but hey, at least you can give it a try if you've not run across it before. If you don't like it, then move on ... I don't expect everyone to agree with me. If you did, would be a pretty boring world, as they say. [:D]

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by electrolove on Thursday, April 28, 2005 3:05 PM
Joe, I have a little question for you. If you look at this picture.

http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains/images/post_photos/large/Photo_20_turnout.jpg

It looks like you have a shiny area at the lower left in the picture. Is this the glue for the ballast that makes it shiny like that? Just curious if this is something that can happen when the glue dries, or is it just the photo that fools me?
Rio Grande Zephyr 5771 from Denver, Colorado to Salt Lake City, Utah "Thru the Rockies"
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, April 28, 2005 6:33 PM
Electro:

If I understand what you're seeing in the photo you reference, it could be there's a slight gloss on the ties around the closure rails of the turnout. It also looks like that part of the photo is a bit lighter than the rest, which could be exagerating the effect.

This location on the layout is already 63" or so off the floor, and it's in the mushroomed part of the layout, so the 63" is from the 15" raised floor, making the actual track height here 78" from the room floor. The room ceiling is at 91" from the floor, leaving about 12" above this track to the ceiling.

To get the shot above the camera is literally up against the room ceiling. You could never see that view in person, unless you have no head above your eyes (which would make for a *very* flat head).

I say all that to point out that notcing any gloss in the track (if it's there) is hard to do in person because you can't get up over the track a lot in this location. So the camera may see things from this angle you'll never spot in person.

The other thing that happens to leave shiny "artifacts" on the layout is using hot glue. I get shiny cobwebs all over the scenery after a while and may not catch them all for weeks. I'll be looking at a scene closely from a certain angle, and well, what do you know! Hot glue "cobwebs" I missed!

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2005 7:49 PM
I thought I'd make my very 1st post in this forum in this thread, since it was Joes' scenery tutorials which moitvated me to join. Thanks Joe. I'm just starting out as an adult in model railway. Boxes of old Marklin HO train set were recently repaired, updated to DCC (and shown off to my dad, who bought it for me when I was 4, I'm now 40) and various new Marklin starter sets have been purchased.

I must say the realism you achieve with scenery is very inspiring. The forum is a great resource and adds to the enjoyment of the hobby. I'm trying to learn as much as I can from exhibitions, this forum and friends. I I found another thread on this forum of people reviewing their mistakes and experience with previous layouts also to be of real value. I'm now at the design phase, and because of advice and opinions in the forum and exhibitions I've happily planned and re-planned my ideal layout - several times.

Cheers to all. I can only be brand new in the forum for one whole day eh? [:D]
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Posted by ukguy on Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:29 PM
Welcome to the forum Marklinboy, you seem to be off to the right start with all the research and information gathering. You have also found the best place on the net for help and advice (IMO). so all thats left to say is good luck and remember, its YOUR layout, do what makes YOU happy.

Have fun & be safe
Karl.
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Posted by electrolove on Friday, April 29, 2005 12:40 AM
Thanks for your answer Joe. Yes, around the ties and on the ballast to the lower left. But I'm only looking at a photo so it's hard to tell. The reason I asked was only to learn how to avoid shiny "artifacts" from glue. I suppose the best thing I can do is to try ballast and paint a bit of flextrack before doing it on my layout. But I'm not there yet. Waiting for my Shinohara track from the USA at the moment [:D] I'm so excited...

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Electro:

If I understand what you're seeing in the photo you reference, it could be there's a slight gloss on the ties around the closure rails of the turnout. It also looks like that part of the photo is a bit lighter than the rest, which could be exagerating the effect.

This location on the layout is already 63" or so off the floor, and it's in the mushroomed part of the layout, so the 63" is from the 15" raised floor, making the actual track height here 78" from the room floor. The room ceiling is at 91" from the floor, leaving about 12" above this track to the ceiling.

To get the shot above the camera is literally up against the room ceiling. You could never see that view in person, unless you have no head above your eyes (which would make for a *very* flat head).

I say all that to point out that notcing any gloss in the track (if it's there) is hard to do in person because you can't get up over the track a lot in this location. So the camera may see things from this angle you'll never spot in person.

The other thing that happens to leave shiny "artifacts" on the layout is using hot glue. I get shiny cobwebs all over the scenery after a while and may not catch them all for weeks. I'll be looking at a scene closely from a certain angle, and well, what do you know! Hot glue "cobwebs" I missed!

Rio Grande Zephyr 5771 from Denver, Colorado to Salt Lake City, Utah "Thru the Rockies"
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Posted by jfugate on Friday, April 29, 2005 10:22 AM
Electro:

If you follow the techniques I describe in here for ballasting your track, you should eliminate any shiny areas in your ballast. I need to take a closer look at the turnout in the photo and see if I missed any areas with tie and ballast weathering. If I missed something, that could explain the shiny area you are seeing.

By the way, the ballasting section of this Forum Clinic is based on an article I wrote for MR. MR hasn't scheduled the piece yet, but I'm hoping it will appear late this year or early next year.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by electrolove on Friday, April 29, 2005 12:27 PM
Joe:

Yes please tell me if you have missed anything.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Electro:

If you follow the techniques I describe in here for ballasting your track, you should eliminate any shiny areas in your ballast. I need to take a closer look at the turnout in the photo and see if I missed any areas with tie and ballast weathering. If I missed something, that could explain the shiny area you are seeing.

By the way, the ballasting section of this Forum Clinic is based on an article I wrote for MR. MR hasn't scheduled the piece yet, but I'm hoping it will appear late this year or early next year.

Rio Grande Zephyr 5771 from Denver, Colorado to Salt Lake City, Utah "Thru the Rockies"
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Posted by electrolove on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:36 AM
Joe:

I'm very interested in different methods to do 'dirt' at the moment. Do you have any close up pictures of your dirt to share?

Thanks in advance
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Posted by jfugate on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:42 AM
Electro:

I'll see what I can find and try to post them soon.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by electrolove on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:27 PM
Thanks a lot Joe, looking forward to that [:D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Electro:

I'll see what I can find and try to post them soon.

Rio Grande Zephyr 5771 from Denver, Colorado to Salt Lake City, Utah "Thru the Rockies"
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Posted by electrolove on Sunday, May 15, 2005 8:52 AM
Joe:

Can you please confirm if this is the three main steps you use to build the scenery base?

1 - Applying the scenery "plaster" mixture (portland cement, patching plaster, fine vemiculite)

2 - Paint the scenery a basic dirt brown color (indoor flat latex paint)

3 - Applying dirt (tempera paint tan: black, brown, yellow, plaster)

The reason I ask is becuse you mention that the plaster mixture is natural gray, then you paint it over with a basic dirt brown color before applaying dirt. I'm not sure if I understand you completely.

Thanks in advance
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Posted by jfugate on Monday, May 16, 2005 11:28 AM
Electro:

Your three steps are correct. The nice thing about the basic gray scenery is later when you drill holes or accidentally chip the plaster, you don't see bright white plaster. The latex paint is a fast way to make the gray scenery look more like it belongs, so if you can't get to the finished scenery for a while, it looks much better than plain gray.

The plaster-tempera mix adds a nice dusty dirt texture to the scenery that you don't get with brown painted plaster. If the powder happens to be a bit thin in spots, that's not a problem because what shows through is brown painted plaster, and it looks right.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by electrolove on Monday, May 16, 2005 1:38 PM
Joe:

Thanks for confirming this. I will try it and see what it looks like, if I can find everything in your mix. I live in Sweden so it's a bit hard for me to 'translate' the material to things used here, if you know what I mean. [:D]
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Posted by jfugate on Friday, June 3, 2005 11:59 AM
In case you missed this forum clinic ...

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by electrolove on Thursday, June 9, 2005 9:39 AM
Joe:

Just want you to confirm. Is it 'Fine Gray B75' you are using as ballast? I have a bag here and it looks very fine so I was a little unsure. This is in fact the first time ever I'm looking at any woodland scenic product, exciting [:D] Makes my creativity flow...

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

TOPIC THIS POST: Ballasting and weathering track

With the sky backdrop finished and the rough scenery plaster work done, I usually ballast and weather the track next. I use MicroEngineering flex track, codes 83, 70, and 55. I like this track because it has very tiny spike heads and a realistic randomness to the ties. Ballasted and weathered ME track looks better than handlaid, in my opinion.

(NOTE: Model Railroader editor Andy Sperandeo asked me to submit an article on these techniques, which I have done. My article might appear late this year (Nov/Dec) or sometime next year, so watch for it. In the meantime, I'm going to be covering these techniques in the Siskiyou Line video series video volume 4 on scenery, among other things.)

I ballast the track using Woodland Scenics fine gray ballast, which is a color that matches the prototype Siskiyou Line. You'll need to pick a color that is right for the region you model. Keep in mind that when you bond the ballast using the techniques I outline here that the color darkens slightly.

I spread and shape the ballast using my fingers and a small stiff-bristled brush. I like to use my fingers because it gives me lots of control. I use the stiff-bristled bru***o brush ballast away from the rail sides and off the tops of the ties after doing the shaping with my fingers. You want your ballast to be even with the tops of the ties, but not *on* the ties.

I use 70% isopropyl alcohol straight to wet the ballast prior to gluing. This pre-wetting step is essential because without it the glue will simply bead up all over the ballast and ruin all your careful shaping efforts. The alcohol is great because it goes right in without disturbing the ballast. I use an old white glue bottle, fill it with alcohol, set the tip to release just a drop at a time, and then dribble it all over the ballast until everything is soaked with alcohol.

Next, I bond the ballast with a white glue solution. I mix 1 part white glue to 3 parts water, and add several drops of dish detergent to the mix so it will soak in readily. Carefully dribble the white glue all over the ballast and let it dry overnight.

The white glue will displace a few ballast grains, but for the most part, things should stay put nicely if you follow these directions. For the few grains that always stray, after things have dried overnight, I take a small screwdriver and lightly scrape the stray grains off the rails and tie tops. Use light pressure on the rails so you don't strip any plastic spikeheads off the track (especially critical with ME track because of the tiny spikeheads).

Vaccum to remove any loose ballast grains.

I paint the sides of the rails with Pollyscale Roof Brown (mainline) or DRGW Depot Brown (sidings/spurs). I prefer waterbased paints, and Pollyscale sticks to the metal rails well. Use a size 00 brush, and don't fret if you get paint on the ties. If you look at real track, you'll see some of the weather color on the tie plates and ties under the rail -- so you're just making things more realistic if you get the rail weathering color on the ties around the base of the rail!

Next, I use an old phonebook as a paint palate and mix some craft acrylic paint (black, brown, white) to get some black-brown and gray-brown color that I paint randomly on a few ties using a size 0 brush. Hit maybe 20-30% of the ties to give them some realistic variation. Paint spur and siding ties more weathered brown and gray tints to reflect the greater weathering and less maintenance they typically get.

Let everything dry for about 30 minutes.

Next, we need to weather between the rails. Looking at prototype track, it tends to weather differently between the rails than it does elsewhere. To simulate this, I mix 1 part plaster with 1-part black powered tempera paint and bru***his dry powdered mixture down the middle of the track (mainline).

I mix 1 part black, 1 part yellow, 2 parts brown, and 4 parts plaster and bru***his dry powdered mixture down the middle of sidings and spurs.

I mist the track with wet water to fix the plaster-tempera mix in place (it will also fade somewhat). The secret is the plaster in this mix -- that will make between-the-track weathering more or less permanent once you mist it with water and it dries. For extra heavy weathering, brush some more weathering powder between the rails while the track is still damp.

Finally, I clean off the railheads with 600 grit sandpaper (poli***he railheads, really) and then vacuum.

Here's a photo of some finished track done this way (from the MR article):


(click on the photo for a closeup)

Notice how realistic the track looks. If you treat the track like any other model and weather it appropriately, it will look great!

NEXT TOPIC: Finishing the rough scenery: applying dirt/background grass
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Posted by elec_tron42 on Thursday, June 9, 2005 12:36 PM
this thread is SUCH a great resource for a newcomer like me. thank you joe for all the great info.
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, June 9, 2005 2:04 PM
Electro:

Yep, that's the stuff. Fine gray B75.

Elec:

Glad you find the info useful. Glad to help out a fellow modeler. [:D]

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by electrolove on Thursday, June 9, 2005 3:06 PM
elec_tron42:

Yes we are all lucky to have a pro like Joe here. I'm also a newcomer and a forum like this is really incredible. I can ask a question and have a couple of answers the same day.

Joe:

Thanks a lot for sharing. And thanks to everyone else as well.
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Posted by electrolove on Thursday, June 23, 2005 7:17 AM
Joe:

In the Scenery Clinic you are talking about Woodland Scenics Foliage.

You are talking about 4 green colors, light, medium, dark and conifer. Can you please tell me more about this and give me the exact item number you are using? There is a lot to choose from at Woodland Scenics webpage so I need some help with the item numbers. [:D]
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:05 PM
electro:

Here's the numbers:
F51 - Foliage - Light Green (60 sq. in. bag)
F52 - Foliage - Medium Green (60 sq. in. bag)
F53 - Foliage - Dark Green (60 sq. in. bag)

I make heavy use of this foliage material, especially F51 and F52. I use the light green the most, followed closely by medium green. Then dark green usage follows as a distant third.

I also have some:
F54 - Foliage - Conifer Green (60 sq. in. bag)
F55 - Foliage - Early Fall Mix (60 sq. in. bag)
F56 - Foliage - Late Fall Mix (60 sq. in. bag)

... but I don't use it much ... maybe something here and there once in a blue moon.

Of course, I'll give lots of juicey scenery construction details (materials, step-by-step demos, etc) in volume 4 of my video series, due out by the holidays this fall.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by electrolove on Thursday, June 23, 2005 12:48 PM
Joe:

Thanks a lot for the item numbers. That makes it a lot easier for me.

Looking forward to volume 4 of your video series. That is a 'must have'.

Thanks again.
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Posted by jfugate on Monday, July 11, 2005 10:18 AM
Bump ...

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, July 11, 2005 5:43 PM
Okay, Joe, quick question, the answer to which may be of interest to others following this forum.

I have been trying your dirt recipies. Observation: they darken when wet, but when they dry, they are ALMOST the same as before wetting. Your experience too? My real question: how thick do you lay it on? I tried several thin layers and that seemed to work pretty well. On one of the layers, I got some dark brown spots. I think it was brown Tempera paint that had not been mixed real well with everything else, although I would tell you it looked mixed. I supposed it could also have been the water (maybe a few bigger drops and less mist than usual). Anyway, I for one would appreciate a little elaboration on your technique. Project now is to get dirt down where I will be placing dirt road to stock tank (watering hole for cattle). Thanks in advance.

John
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Posted by jfugate on Monday, July 11, 2005 7:05 PM
JS:

All of your experiences are similar to mine.

Several thin layers of dirt are better than one thick layer, since you can easily dampen the layer well and the plaster will set up nicely, fixing the dirt in place.

Wetting the powder darkens it and once it dries, it lightens again. If you don't get the tempera mixed in well with the plaster, you can get dark spots in the dirt. Not a biggie, I just apply another layer over the dark spot, mist it with some water, and let it set up.

I first mist the area I want to cover with the powder with water and apply the dirt with a tea strainer, dusting it on lightly by tapping the handle with my finger. Then I mist on some more water until it darkens up, which means I've dampened it thoroughly.

You can do other things, like totally soak the powder until it's sloppy wet (instead of merely damp), and when it dries it will tend to crack and look like mud that has been baked dry. On slopes, you can soak it with water such that little rivelets run down the slope, creating some natural erosion effect.

If you put it on too thick, it's hard to dampen it thoroughly and the middle will remain dusty and loose, causing the whole application to come off later in chuncks and create a real mess. I try to put down just enough to cover things (think of white powdered sugar on donuts), but not have any thickness buildup. I'll often come back and do a second application just to make sure I've gotten good coverage.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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