NWP SWP So SP AC-9s wouldn't be popular? I would think doing a prevalent BUT not overdone locomotive would stand to gain more profit because there's less competition.
So SP AC-9s wouldn't be popular?
I would think doing a prevalent BUT not overdone locomotive would stand to gain more profit because there's less competition.
Sure, it would be popular among a small, select group. That group is probably not large enough to provide a sufficient market for an AC-9.
Your best bet is probably to use a Bachmann B&O EM-1 or the announced MTH DM&IR 2-8-8-4 as a starting point. You would need all new details and a new tender. It would be a challenge, but it would be possible.
The root of the problem is the simple fact that every railroad had its own ideas about how to design, build, and outfit its steam locos. With a few exceptions (such as USRA), they weren't standardized like diesels. Even the USRA's showed variations from one order to another. Some characteristics were fairly uniform. For example, many early Mikados had drivers in the 50-57" range, but eventually most roads settled on 62-64" as standard. Boilers might be straight, conical, or wagon top; and the firebox area might be traditional, but it might also be Belpaire, Wootten, or a couple other unusual options. The cabs might be roomy or tiny. The tenders might be rectangular, Vanderbilt, or any number of odd variants. For many modelers, your choices are: (1) to accept what the manufacturers provide, (2) perform whatever modifications are needed, (3)scratchbuild, (4)buy brass, (5) pay somebody to custom build it for you, or (6) do without.
Tom
NWP SWP I have seen a few MTH HO scale three rail engines?! I have heard of three rail O but never HO! And I don't get why MTH makes 3 Rail anything is there some advantage to having a third rail. (no subway jokes please) Please someone tell me 3 rails advantage over 2.
I have seen a few MTH HO scale three rail engines?! I have heard of three rail O but never HO! And I don't get why MTH makes 3 Rail anything is there some advantage to having a third rail. (no subway jokes please) Please someone tell me 3 rails advantage over 2.
Google "Third rail (model railroading)" and you get an explicit answer. In short, the main advantages are increased reliability (more contacts - less stalling) and the ease of setting up reverse loops.
JW
ACY TomThe root of the problem is the simple fact that every railroad had its own ideas about how to design, build, and outfit its steam locos. With a few exceptions (such as USRA), they weren't standardized like diesels.
Yes, this. If a manufacturer offered 100 steam locos and 100 diesels, they'd sell a lot more diesels, since all you have to do is change the paint scheme (and maybe a detail or two) to make each one appropriate for half a dozen roads or more. How many railroads ran GP7s? Dozens. (Hundreds?) How many railroads ran K4 Pacifics? One.
At the club, we got an HO collection from the 1950s donated to us, and it reminded me that there was a time when if you wanted it, you had to build it. That always seemed nigh-on impossible to me, but I've been building more and more models lately, and you know what? It isn't. Hard? Yes. Time consuming? Yes. Frustrating? At times, 'til you get it right. Impossible? No.
Melvin, I'm so glad you posted the link to your AC-9 kitbash story -- that was a real inspiration.
Meanwhile, I am thankful that I mostly model in the diesel era, that Niagaras can be had cheap, and that the NYC used USRA Mikados. :)
Aaron
Paul3 Sheldon,The reason why I said you wanted generic engines is because that's the only way lower the price and reduce selection to a level to which a hobby shop could afford to buy it all and have it sit on the shelf for years at a time.Did you see the photo link I posted from AA Hobbies? His shelves are full, and this is the era of the "pre sell it, make it, blow it out" business model. He doesn't have enough shelf space to hold more than a fraction of what comes out in a year (even with the basement). You ran a hobby shop a long time ago, right? Back in the 1970's-1980's, IIRC. That's when the number of SKU's was pretty low in the hobby. The Walthers Catalog had far more European models than North American ones. In 1971, Athearn had 275 different locos for sale at a combined MSRP of $2791 (that's $17,297 in 2017 dollars) with the old full discount to dealers. These products were made decade after decade with little to know changes. In 2012 (the last year I counted), Athearn offered 480 locos at $129,390 MSRP ($140,805 in 2017) with a short discount. Every time these modern runs are released, they have different road names and numbers. And that's just Athearn. That's not counting BLI, Atlas, IM, Bowser, Rapido, etc. It's a slightly different world we live in today with far, far more unique product being made every year. BLI isn't underfunded to my knowledge. In the case of the USRA variations, I think it was this question: will investment in tooling = greater sales? IOW, will a $10,000-$50,000 tool increase sales by $10,000-$50,000? Their opinion was obviously no. That's not underfunding or greedy, that's making a cold, hard business decision. Sort of like you not buying BLI engines. You're not being greedy by keeping your money in your pocket; you're making a cold, hard business decision not to buy their product because it doesn't fit your business model. Most manufacturers already sell direct to consumers at full list price: Athearn, Atlas, BLI, Tangent, Exactrail, Bachmann, Rapido, Bowser, Kadee, Walthers, etc. InterMountain is one of the few that doesn't, and Walthers is the only one that discounts the MSRP. Not too many manufacturers are willing to become distributers selling to hobby shops at wholesale (except Walthers and Athearn/Horizon Hobby; they already are distributers). For one thing, it would tick off and/or kill the distributers they still have who buy massive quantities. Secondly, the manufacturers would all have to hire staff to deal with the hobby shops and the problems they have. Again, would the profit be worth the expense? So far, that answer seems to be no. Athearn doesn't sell to all hobby shops. When Horizon Hobby bought them, they put in a list of heavy retailer restrictions and monthly order minimums that eliminated a bunch of marginal hobby shops from their distribution chain. Athearn and Walthers are healthy because they are also distributers. Having all the manufacturers go to a direct-to-retail business model would impact their health in a negative fashion. Not to mention the pain in the rear for hobby shops to have to maintain accounts and orders with dozens of manufacturers. I agree with you that MTH just doesn't "get" the HO market. And BLI is, unfortunately, being lured down the O-scale tinplate road.
Sheldon,The reason why I said you wanted generic engines is because that's the only way lower the price and reduce selection to a level to which a hobby shop could afford to buy it all and have it sit on the shelf for years at a time.Did you see the photo link I posted from AA Hobbies? His shelves are full, and this is the era of the "pre sell it, make it, blow it out" business model. He doesn't have enough shelf space to hold more than a fraction of what comes out in a year (even with the basement).
You ran a hobby shop a long time ago, right? Back in the 1970's-1980's, IIRC. That's when the number of SKU's was pretty low in the hobby. The Walthers Catalog had far more European models than North American ones.
In 1971, Athearn had 275 different locos for sale at a combined MSRP of $2791 (that's $17,297 in 2017 dollars) with the old full discount to dealers. These products were made decade after decade with little to know changes. In 2012 (the last year I counted), Athearn offered 480 locos at $129,390 MSRP ($140,805 in 2017) with a short discount. Every time these modern runs are released, they have different road names and numbers. And that's just Athearn. That's not counting BLI, Atlas, IM, Bowser, Rapido, etc. It's a slightly different world we live in today with far, far more unique product being made every year.
BLI isn't underfunded to my knowledge. In the case of the USRA variations, I think it was this question: will investment in tooling = greater sales? IOW, will a $10,000-$50,000 tool increase sales by $10,000-$50,000? Their opinion was obviously no. That's not underfunding or greedy, that's making a cold, hard business decision. Sort of like you not buying BLI engines. You're not being greedy by keeping your money in your pocket; you're making a cold, hard business decision not to buy their product because it doesn't fit your business model.
Most manufacturers already sell direct to consumers at full list price: Athearn, Atlas, BLI, Tangent, Exactrail, Bachmann, Rapido, Bowser, Kadee, Walthers, etc. InterMountain is one of the few that doesn't, and Walthers is the only one that discounts the MSRP. Not too many manufacturers are willing to become distributers selling to hobby shops at wholesale (except Walthers and Athearn/Horizon Hobby; they already are distributers). For one thing, it would tick off and/or kill the distributers they still have who buy massive quantities. Secondly, the manufacturers would all have to hire staff to deal with the hobby shops and the problems they have. Again, would the profit be worth the expense? So far, that answer seems to be no.
Athearn doesn't sell to all hobby shops. When Horizon Hobby bought them, they put in a list of heavy retailer restrictions and monthly order minimums that eliminated a bunch of marginal hobby shops from their distribution chain.
Athearn and Walthers are healthy because they are also distributers. Having all the manufacturers go to a direct-to-retail business model would impact their health in a negative fashion. Not to mention the pain in the rear for hobby shops to have to maintain accounts and orders with dozens of manufacturers.
I agree with you that MTH just doesn't "get" the HO market. And BLI is, unfortunately, being lured down the O-scale tinplate road.
Paul, the reason you don't understand my view is explained in this post to a thread just started by Howard Zane:
Howard,
In my view, having managed a hobby shop train department myself, the only future for brick and mortar stores would be:
Way more than 2000 sq ft, more like ten times that.
A good web presence and a store location that is low cost but near large population centers.
Big enough to buy most products direct and thereby have very good pricing.
Yes, knowledgeable people and hobby promotion.
The small shop business model is dead. Why should I pay more to wait for some guy to order what he can't stock because his shop is too small when I can just push a few buttons and have it show up at my door? That is not just about price - it is about service.
You cannot sell what you don't have. There is only one company I will preorder from - because they are small and sell direct - Spring Mills Depot.
I have been having this discussion with "Paul3" and others on here for years about products, pricing, inventory and preorders. Paul is right about one thing, there is too much product for a small shop to stock a representivie selection. All arguments about pricing or preorders are secondary to that fact. Now you have to be BIG - like MB Klein or TrainWorld.
Too much deep discounting and preorders have changed this hobby - not in a good way.
Distributors and small shops are dieing fast. We saw this comming in the 1980's when I worked at Glen Burnie Hobby World. We tried to put together some investors for a "discount superstore hobby shop", never could find the right people.
Howard, how much money do you have? Do you know of any empty grocery stores for sale cheap?
I will put together a management team for you.........
Sheldon
NWP SWPI have seen a few MTH HO scale three rail engines?! I have heard of three rail O but never HO!
Marklin is a German manufacturer that uses a three rail AC system. The third rail (studs in the center) carry the AC voltage, the outer rails are the returns and have the same polarity. With $120 million of annual sales it is the largest European model railroad manufacturer. Marklin was founded in 1858 and produced electric toy trains with AC voltage since about 1926.
The MTH HO-scale three rail locomotives are for the Marklin System. It has nothing to do with advantages of a third rail, just a different system.
I came to model railroading through Marklin. For me as a kid Marklin had the advantage that there are no polarity problems at loops and wyes as the outer rails have the same polarity.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHRWith $120 million of annual sales it is the largest European model railroad manufacturer. Marklin was founded in 1858 and produced electric toy trains with AC voltage since about 1926.
It is safe to say, that Marklin is still the # 1 in the toy train business world-wide, just a notch ahead of the Kader Group/Hong Kong. Marklin sold electric trains long before 1926 - that year marks the start of their OO scale range of products which soon gave way to HO scale.
Marklin´s proprietary 3-rail AC system is certainly anachronistic and does not appeal to quite a number of folks, but it is still the most reliable and foolproof system there is. The hobby ows Marklin quite a lot of developments, starting with HO scale all the way to DCC. Bernd Lenz was commissioned by Marklin to develop a digital control system, which Marklin at the end paid for, but did not adopt for their own products.
AutonerdIf a manufacturer offered 100 steam locos and 100 diesels, they'd sell a lot more diesels, since all you have to do is change the paint scheme (and maybe a detail or two) to make each one appropriate for half a dozen roads or more. How many railroads ran GP7s? Dozens. (Hundreds?) How many railroads ran K4 Pacifics? One.
I model the 1935-1945 timeframe, and my interest is almost exclusively steam. My raods are CB&Q, NP and C&NW. I bought several generic steamers decorated for those roads (BLI, Proto 2000 and Spectrum). Details are not prototype-specific, but they're good enough for now. Someday I may try to detail them to be more acurate representations, but meanwhile they're fine. Of course, if more accurate road-specific models become available they'll certainly have my attention, and probably my hobby dollars.
I think most people who favor steamers are like me. Generic, if not obviously wrong, is good enough.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
I just dieselized, partly for cost reasons. I love steam, but it is not what I saw growing up...
I tend to disagree with the premise that most want a generic steamer.
John
PRR8259 I just dieselized, partly for cost reasons. I love steam, but it is not what I saw growing up... I tend to disagree with the premise that most want a generic steamer. John
That's not what he said John.
He said "close is good enough", that is way different than "wanting" generic steam.
The problem, and the question, with all our models is "how close is good enough?".
We know that North American steam came in all these endless variations, and they were constantly changed and rebuilt by their shops.
And there was no detailed record of every little change to every individual loco on each and every day of its life.
So please tell me how any model can be completely correct except for a few lucky situations like "as built" or we just happen to have few good dated photos?
And since many locos, while different, were built using standard parts and were adapted from other designs, at a glace some are hard to tell apart.
And you are a self professed "non builder", so you don't plan to kitbash loco A into loco B?
So is a BLI B&O Heavy Pacific a "good enough" stand in for an as built P7? It would be for me if it had a delta trailing truck and a high headlight.
But I don't model that era. In the era I model, a BLI Heavy Pacific is not even a great starting point to kit bash an end of steam P7d.
How close is good enough? - everyone decides for themselves.
For most buyers, especially of steam, I believe the more generic the better. With steam, if it has a great smooth running mechanism, that is more than half the battle.
.
If it also has decent lines and pretty good detail, awesome... not many out there buying these things want more than that.
Bachmann, BLI, and Athearn all seem to have a good take on what the market wants. A couple of "road specific" details on a pretty common style, and the buyers will come.
I absolutely love by Bachmann EM-1. I actually wish it was a bit more generic, but it pretty much just looks like an Eastern Power House, and that is good for me.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL How close is good enough? - everyone decides for themselves. Sheldon
That's good enough for me!
I really don't see a limit in the amount of steam equipment offer. You have Bachman that got anything from the 4-4-0 Jupiter to the big EM-1. You got BLI doing everything PRR and a few others, MTH got a good selection, so does Athearn just to name a few.
Now if you really want to see a Limited number of selection for ho scale try North American Electric Locomotive. So far beside GG1 from BLI Bachmann, MTH, Trix. The MTH EP-2 Bi-polar and Little Joe. The Bachmann E33. If you want other model of electric prototype to the railroads you have to go brass which is usually an arm and a leg.
Permit a clarification:
Mantua sold a whole lot of steamers that some would argue look "good enough" that actually run very well, at least the late can motor versions...but they bear very little relation to any actual American steam, to my eyes...excepting perhaps the General.
The consumer in me wants to buy a loco that is pretty darn correct for some railroad even if not mine. What some might say is a generic-looking EM-1 to my eyes is not at all. It does not look like anything anybody else had, especially with the welded obviously B&O tender. To me it screams B&O.
Another example: i can buy Athearn 65' mill gondolas knowing they are a 100% Santa Fe car. Though General American, I cannot find any other correctly matching prototype car, but a few are close, and Athearn wisely paints the very closest cars they can possibly find in any given roadname. I can respect that they are trying...to be as prototypical as they can.
In general, my money went to the best models available. I bought the BLI H class consolidation rather than their admittedly generic version.
The Bachmann EM-1 may be the very best articulated available for the price. The 2 I have owned ran amazingly well.
I would rather own a gorgeous Genesis style Big Boy, in my road of choice, than something more "generic" like some BLI engines, but I am not evetyone. Ymmv.
Perhaps this whole discussion is really about quantities of production. To me, steam seems to be more of a limited run realm as opposed to diesel, with a few exceptions (Bachmann being most prevalent there). Now I'm sure others will tell me how wrong I am.
Mike
Water Level Route Perhaps this whole discussion is really about quantities of production. To me, steam seems to be more of a limited run realm as opposed to diesel, with a few exceptions (Bachmann being most prevalent there). Now I'm sure others will tell me how wrong I am.
Sir Madog Water Level Route Perhaps this whole discussion is really about quantities of production. To me, steam seems to be more of a limited run realm as opposed to diesel, with a few exceptions (Bachmann being most prevalent there). Now I'm sure others will tell me how wrong I am. I am not the one to prove you wrong, but in my country, steam engines are by far the better sellers than Diesels/electrics. Buit then the 1930s to 1970s range of engines roaming the rails is pretty well covered throughout all the manufacturers. Doesn´t really compare to the situation you have to deal with - a vast number of different roads with an even vaster number of different steam engine types.
And those factors make for a vastly different market here. Even we assume that similar percentages of the population are interested in model trains, the vast number of North American prototypes, steam or diesel, makes the demand for any one loco in a given roadname pretty small.
Sure, diesels were more "mass produced" and are easier to just change a few details and letter for a different road, but even at that, how much demand will there be for the smaller/lesser known roads?
Bachmann has shown us that it can be done. Their Spectrum 4-8-2 (heavy and light), 2-10-2, 4-6-0 and 2-6-6-2 all had a wealth of road specific details on the same running gear and boiler, as does their 2-8-4.
And their new 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 have at least a few road specific variations, different tenders, trailing trucks, headlights, to at least be closer......
More could be done long these lines, rather than tooling one more Big Boy.........
Example-most modern Mikados had 63/64" drivers on the same wheelbase, after that you just need different boilers and details. The possible locos is a long list.....
Part of how Bachmann did this 15 years ago was common parts on all locos, not every loco being tooled from scratch.
As far as US modeling interests, diesels have the edge, no doubt, but available models has some effect on that.
Of course this discussion is academic since the manufacturers are going to produce what makes economic sense to them. As my wife's mother used to say, "want never gets" - well, in a few rare cases like Mel where he made his own AC-9.
Those who have been in the hobby for a long time have settled in to reality; some haven't. We have it better now than we ever had, and yet some are still not happy.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 ... As my wife's mother used to say, "want never gets" -...
... As my wife's mother used to say, "want never gets" -...
My Great Grandma Lawson's version, she a salty Scot, was, "Thems that ask don't get. Thems that don't ask don't want."
I'm personally very happy with what is available in steam, it's just that I can't really personally afford the higher priced engines at the present time. Maybe someday, but not now. I replaced them with relatively inexpensive non-sound plastic diesels, and am happy.
I did argue the viewpoint that manufacturers are going to make what they absolutely know can sell. Arguably, Bachmann did a truly fantastic job on USRA steam power.
The market has also changed since Bachmann tooled those USRA steamers. At the time they were tooled, produced, and sold, there were still active buying hobbyists who had some memory of steam power in everyday freight service, when perhaps they were small children. Now those people represent fewer numbers and/or a lesser percentage of the buying public.
Perhaps we will still see more new steam models of more prototypes yet to come, like the BLI ATSF 2-8-2, but I doubt they will be introduced at the frequency we have seen in the past.
Autonerd,Just as and example of the popularity of diesels vs. steam, at my club we have approx. 1800 locos registered to our 65 members. Of these, about 250 are steam. The ratio at our club is therefore approx. 6 diesels for every 1 steam engine.
Personally, I think the major reason is price and use. At most, our club members might buy a pair of matching steam engines for a double header. OTOH, the same guys will buy four matching diesels to put on a train. Heck, I have one 2-10-2 and 4 matching FA-1/FB-1's (the diesels that replaced said 2-10-2 in real life).Sheldon,I actually completely agree with your hobby shop post above. The problem is that the vast majority of hobby shops aren't large stores with cheap rent near population centers that employ hobby experts and have a integrated internet store. And of course the deep pockets it would take to create it. We'll end up with a few places like that, and that will be it other than shops that are run by independantly wealthy hobbyists that don't mind losing money every year.
About what's "close enough": my example is the IHC NH Hudson. It's black and silver, it's a 4-6-4, has a bullet nose, and says New Haven on it. For some, that may be close enough at $180. Not for me, however. I'll save my pennies and get a BLI I-5 for $400 that's almost perfect in HO scale.
Brunton,Sorry, but I model steam and I only want NH steam, not generic or close enough steam. I'll take a NH steam model that has problems that can be corrected, sure. But the end goal is accuracy. I admit I have a BLI USRA Heavy Mike in NH paint that's close to a NH J-2 Class (but isn't), but I'm waiting for the NH cab to come and replace the USRA cab, then I can move around the appliances to make a real NH engine model. But the rest of my steam fleet is brass. I'd rather pay more to have a more accurate steam model (and only have a few) vs. paying less to have a more generic steam model (but have more of them).
Mheetu,Don't forget that Rapido is coming out with the NH EP-5 electric, the MP-54's and the Electroliner have already come out from Con-Cor, and the upcoming BLI PRR P-5a. Oh, and the Bachmann Amtrak Acela set and HHP-8, plus the Atlas AEM-7 and ALP-44. And can't forget the Walthers Metroliners.
I'd like a PRR A5s and Atlantic please. BLI, are you listening? Another run of your H10s with Paragon3 would be nice, too.
I'd love an MKT 2-8-2 Mikado in plastic, Hallmark released some back in the 1970's/1980's. So I would love to see a DC/DCC ready plastic version with the steal pilot, tender with the fierce red MKT medallion on the side, red cab roof, a doghouse on the tender, as MKT had doghouses on thier Mikado's.
How about it BLI?
Try emailing your ideas to themake if enough people email them about a product they might make it.
I would like to see modular locomotive kits where you can buy a boiler, cab, tender, drivers, pilot/trailing trucks, etcetera to build a custom locomotive that would be great for the freelancers like me.
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
selector riogrande5761 ... As my wife's mother used to say, "want never gets" -... My Great Grandma Lawson's version, she a salty Scot, was, "Thems that ask don't get. Thems that don't ask don't want."
As it happens, my wife was born and raised just a short drive south of the Scottish border near Newcastle England - South Shields to be specific (Sting and Ridley Scott hail from there also). She says Aye instead of yes - but when I say she sounds a bit like a Scott, she says no, the Scotts sound a bit like her! She's a bit salty herself and has a number of other sayings from her mother including: "you get what you are given".
Train content:
The north part of England my wife likens to the train in the dystopian movie Snow Piercer where the highest class people are in the front of the train and the lowest class in the back, or as she calls it, the boot of the train. England still has a lot of strong class divisions. Even Brits who immigrate to the US still are affected by it. She has bumped into Brits in the west suburbs of Washington DC and as soon as they hear her northern accent the ignore her. Very wierd.
NWP SWPI would like to see modular locomotive kits where you can buy a boiler, cab, tender, drivers, pilot/trailing trucks, etcetera to build a custom locomotive that would be great for the freelancers like me.
Northwest Short Line tried something like that many years ago to make all the freelancers like us happy.
It was a brief experiment.
Even if you give people exactly what they say they want, they still might not purchase it.