Please don't take this as me being annoying or whining just because the rarest locomotive ever isn't in full production but I have been looking at locomotives and it seems that manufacturers only produce a few select locomotives and usually they're ones that are already made by other companies. Does anyone else feel this way?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Some locomotives are more popular than others. So, if you're a company that's going to make a new steam model, will you sell more Big Boys or more KCS 4-8-4's? And Big Boys have already been made by just about everyone.
Ed
Well, more railroads had 2-8-0, 2-8-2, 4-6-2, etc... Models than a 4-4-4-4 Pennsy unit.
More railroads with similar models, more available to sell to more modeler's.
Simple economics.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Ubiquitious models of locomotives sell; unique or lesser known (aka rare) locomotives, not so much. As Rick correctly stated, it's simple economics for manufacturers. Yea, I'd love to see an NYC H-10a 2-8-2 Mike in plastic but that ain't gonna happen. It's just a reality of MRRing...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
So SP AC-9s wouldn't be popular?
I would think doing a prevalent BUT not overdone locomotive would stand to gain more profit because there's less competition.
There's a LOT of detail to that particular model, Steven. And even a plastic version of it is going to easily cost in the $700-$800 range.
Would you want a VERY stripped down version of it and add your own details to save cost? Most modelers these days don't want that; they want a model with all the bells and whistles - literally and figuratively.
I wouldn't buy or have an interest in an SP AC-9 because I don't model the SP. And I think it would have limited appeal - even with SP modelers. If you can convince the likes of BLI, Walthers, or MTH to design and manufacture one for you - then go for it. Contact them and see what they have to say.
The reality of it is that when all the costs are added up for a potential locomotive project to be released, the design, tool work, molds, painting, decals, advertising, etc. can easily run into 6-, even 7-figures - if the amount of units is large enough. Manufacturers have to recoup those cost or they lose money on the project and none of them are in the philanthropic business the last time I checked.
Well, the OP is right. The current selection of steam models is poor.
Not only because of the focus on large, famous, highly publicized locos like Big Boys, but because of limited production, preorder manufacturing cycles.
Just 15 yeares ago Bachmann Spectrum offered a long list of wheel arrangements and road names - yes a few were less than accurate for the roads lettered, but that is no worse than the TOTALY generic 2-8-2's, 4-6-2's and 2-8-0's the Broadway is selling today in long list of roadnames with NO EFFORT to be correct on even the simplest details they could easily change.
And worse is the silly one-upsmanship between BLI and MTH over Big Boys and the like.
I'll bet, if you put me in charge of product developement at any of those companies I could make reasonably correct models of a lot of stuff they think won't sell, and make money with it.
Here is the real problem. You have to be willing to invest in the future of the hobby. You have to put the product out there in a way that is is accessable.
Pre orders are not "accessable" to new people in the hobby. What new excited person wants to wait months or years for a locomotive?
Preorders may be saving the manufacturers (or not), but I think it is hurting the growth ofthe hobby.
I have said this before - if I did not already own most of the train I want, if I was getting into this hobby in a serious way (with the kind of goals I have in this hobby now), I simply would not get in this hobby.
The process of searching for and aquiring the desired/necessary models would turn me off. I hate the "hunt". That is a hobby all its own, not one that I want to be in.
I want to buy model trains and build a model layout. Not search Ebay or train shows for stuff no longer made.
But I am lucky, over the last 50 years I have been able to buy what I needed when it was available and now have most everything I want.
One last point, who is a more profitable customer for a locomotive manufacturer?
A guy who buys one each of a:
Big Boy
K4
Challenger
Y6b
GS-4
NYC Hudson
and on down list of famous locos to the tune of 35 locos total.
or me, who has bought:
11 Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's
9 Spectrum 2-8-0's
5 Bachmann 2-8-4's (converted to 2-8-2's)
5 Spectrum 2-6-6-2's
2 BLI/PCM Reading T-1's
2 BLI N&W Class A's
2 BLI Heavy 2-8-2's
2 Proto 0-8-0's
2 Proto 2-8-8-2's (converted to 2-8-8-0's)
and so on.
The point is I built a believable roster by purchasing and kit bashing multiple copies of the same models - not collecting a hodge podge list of one off pieces.
Modelers will buy fleets - if you give them the right models.
Collectors buy collections, and now the manufacturers fight over the same market.
I have never owned a Big Boy - never will.
Sheldon
USRA Light Mikados and Pacifics will always sell.
.
If you are going to expend the resources to make the models you better be able to sell them. It is a safer bet to bring out a new version, better running, more details, of a popular model than to take chances in new territories.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
But one day we'll all sit back and say I have enough Big Boys and wham no more sales! I model a proto freelanced railroad that basically is the combination of the SP, WP, and NP into one system with trackage rights all the way to the Mississippi. Therefore do I run every train behind a GS-4, AC-11, or MT-4? Of course not I want to run a plethora of wheel arrangements, challengers, cabforwards, overlands, northerns, yellowstones, and every other locomotive that was prevalent on my railroads parent roads. I'm just saying you can't tell me that a well priced SP locomotive would not sell I'm sure even those who just like western US railroads would probably buy one. I think it's more of the cows following the rest of the herd the manufacturers only make select models and thats what you have to buy. It's obvious with all the Gevos, ACes, and Big Boys out there.
Athearn offered a veranda turbine for a while and now it's discontinued. Or the DDA40X same thing. I hope the big box manufacturers stop in on this forum occasionally and they read this because the customer is always right.
While the selection may be poor in HO, it's almost non existant in S. New steam locomotives with scale wheels (as opposed to AF wheels) are limited to a 4-8-4, a few end-of-run 4-6-2's, and whatever the latest River Raisin brass model is. Conversion is possible but difficult since there is no one offering driver wheel sets that I know of, plus the AF locomotives tend to be a little too toy like for my taste,
Paul
SeeYou190 USRA Light Mikados and Pacifics will always sell. . If you are going to expend the resources to make the models you better be able to sell them. It is a safer bet to bring out a new version, better running, more details, of a popular model than to take chances in new territories. . -Kevin .
That was true 15-20 years ago, not any more. The NEED for a "better" Big Boy is WAY PAST and point of deminishing return.
What Sheldon said.
I would like to see some quality locomotives of the Ten Wheeler, Prairie, Twelve Wheeler, Consolidation and similar types. And no, IHC does not fit my definition of "quality," I'm afraid. Bachmann does - sometimes, but last time I checked them out (several years ago, admittedly), they were pretty hit and miss.
I wouldn't mind generic versions of these small-to-medium steamers. I can customize them to more closely match my prototype, should I get the urge.
I would also be willing to pay several c-notes for decent looking and running versions of these locos.
Big Mikados, Decapods and articulateds are great, and I own several. But for branchline railroading they're a bit of overkill. A low-drivered Pacific or a medium Consolidation looks much better and is more than adequate for such uses.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
ATLANTIC CENTRALPre orders are not "accessable" to new people in the hobby. What new excited person wants to wait months or years for a locomotive? Preorders may be saving the manufacturers (or not), but I think it is hurting the growth ofthe hobby. I have said this before - if I did not already own most of the train I want, if I was getting into this hobby in a serious way (with the kind of goals I have in this hobby now), I simply would not get in this hobby. The process of searching for and aquiring the desired/necessary models would turn me off. I hate the "hunt". That is a hobby all its own, not one that I want to be in. I want to buy model trains and build a model layout. Not search Ebay or train shows for stuff no longer made.
Mike
If BLI ever announces that they're taking reservations for a PRR BP-20, MTH will have theirs on shelves three weeks later.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
I have a freind who would love a yellowstone painted for the DMIR, except he doesn't know if his basement is big enough for the needed radius.
So, Steven, I guess you've scrapped the "cascadenorthernrr" and moved on?
Mike.
My You Tube
The only loco I ever pre ordered was my first PCM Reading T1. ANd that was more or less an informal preorder with a guy who was at all the locl train shows and I bought many things from in the past. People need to stop letting emotions rule their purchases - I have since purchased THREE MORE of the same loco, paying the "non sound" price or less for the sound version.
How long ago did Atlas release the Trainmaster with QSI sound in the original Reading pullman green? It was long before I bought the one I did, getting it for less than the price of the plain DC model at release. Pateince, grasshopper. All this "limited production" stuff ALWAYS shows up later on on ebay, often at reduced prices. Walthers Plymouth switchers? Still available on eBay.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
NWP SWPbecause the customer is always right.
The customer is rarely right. Customers say they want certain things, but will not pay for them.
Everybody says they want a car with great gas mileage, but how many Chevrolet Sparks do you see on the road compared to Chevrolet Tahoes? Every automobile consumer wants more reliability, but they still buy BMW and Mercedes Benz over Toyota if they have the money.
I am talking about overall groups here, not individual consumers. Sure, there are a few familys with $200,000.00 plus incomes with a Camry in the driveway, but not many. Especially if their neighbor just bought a "Beemer."
The manufacturers need to figure out what large groups of consumers will actually buy, not what they say is wanted. Remember Life-Like's disaster with the Mather boxcar?
You never want an argument with the customer, but if the customer was always right then EVERY car would ALWAYS be under warranty. Every problem would be easy to diagnose if you just put a "competent" technician on the job. They never abused the vehicle and followed all prescribed maintenance at the proper interval. All parts would be readily available somewhere. And finally, their cousin Mitch would actually be a "Master Technician."
Our manufacturers are always fighting a struggle to stay in the black. They know a lot more about this business than we do. It is naive in the worst way to think any of us could run a successful hobby manufacturing company. Just like it is ridiculous that all customers in an Auto Dealership could run a Service Department better than the Service Manager does.
Limited runs, revervations, and pre-orders all let manufacturers have a better shot at making a product that will ammortize the development costs quickly. These also get Model Railroaders to get off of their wallets and spend some cash.
Newcomers to the hobby have plenty of choices. I have yet to be in a hobby shop that didn't have track, power packs, freight cars, and locomotives in plenty of choices.
I doubt many newcomers show up and say "I am considering joining the Model Railroading community, and I have a 50 by 80 basement to fill with trains, but I will only be your customer if you have a plastic model of a GG-1 with sound and operating windshield wipers, 50 X-29 boxcars all with different numbers, and code 70 #12 turnouts."
This is silly. I think the manufacturers have a pretty good handle on their business.
If you want to model certain railroads in the late steam / transition era, you can do it reasonably well. There seems to be quite a few New York Central, Pennsylvania, Norfolk & Western, Santa Fe, Union Pacific, and Southern Pacific late (1920 or later) steam engines, plus D&RGW narrow gauge available.
If you want to model another railroad, or a period before 1920, it becomes more hit-and-miss. If you want to model Great Northern, there are one or two steam engines available that are accurate (or at least reasonably accurate) but you're probably going to have to save your money to get brass. As to time, a good c.1900 4-6-0 and 2-8-0 with Stephenson valve gear would be nice for the earlier modelers...plus many of these engines lasted into the transition era.
NWP SWP So SP AC-9s wouldn't be popular? I would think doing a prevalent BUT not overdone locomotive would stand to gain more profit because there's less competition.
I just don't see how steam engines could negotiate my subway tunnels. Yes, the first elevated trains were steam powered with the famus Fourney locomotives, but that was a long - long time ago.
A challenger under Broadway--I just don't think so.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Yes I did scrap the CNRR because it's name sounds like a regional not a Class I but I may still make a few pieces of rolling stock for the CNRR.
The OP and topic seems to be exactly right: there are indeed very limited choices, unless you are comfortable with USRA engines, or USRA copies. There are and have been some really nice engines made in plastic or hybrid models for a few key roads, but, if your line of interest did not have a relatively "standard" locomotive, then brass may become the only option....
Having worked on the manufacturing side, it is pretty simple:
Many people have to have just one steam engine for their pike, and they tend to choose the largest types for that one engine. So no matter how many Big Boys get made, they will always sell, and the next version that offers something slightly different or better, or better sound--if it's a big boy, it will sell. That's just how it is. Given the high cost of tooling most any new steam engine (more parts than diesels) manufacturers always want to invest in a "sure thing".
Big Boys and Challengers and certain streamlined engines, and PRR K-4's, too, all represent a sure thing. They will sell.
I would dearly love to have an SP 4-10-2 in plastic--but how many other people would actually buy one and have the curves to operate such an animal? An articulated will work on tighter radius curves especially if the manufacturer cheats a little and allows both front and rear engines to pivot...
Athearn/Horizon is doing more UP Challengers, this time the original as built versions. They are completely sold out and none are even close to hitting our shores yet.
A NYC H-10 or an SP 4-10-2 is not certain to be a total sellout prior to arrival. They just aren't.
I have no dog in this fight any longer...with my kids needing cash for other things like lessons...I was forced to abandon steam and replace with much lesser priced diesels in plastic. My steam is all gone, now, and I only have a few plastic non-sound diesels.
John
Just too many unique steam locomotives to make models to represent even a small fraction of them. But - if you can find a commercially available model that has the same basic dimensions, you can customize the domes/cabs and create a credible model. I wish there were commercially available "kits" where manufacturers would sell different boilers/cabs to fit a particular chassis. Then you just add piping and compressors and the like to suit your needs.
I actually think this type of thing could be a market for 3-D printing.
- Kevin
Check out my shapeways creations! HOn3 and railroad items for 3D printing:
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/kevin-s-model-train-detail-parts
SeeYou190 Everybody says they want a car with great gas mileage, but how many Chevrolet Sparks do you see on the road compared to Chevrolet Tahoes? Every automobile consumer wants more reliability, but they still buy BMW and Mercedes Benz over Toyota if they have the money.
Reliability? - car company with the most recalls in recent years - TOYOTA
Car company with one of the lowest warranty costs per unit - FORD
I don't care about fuel economy, I care about practicality, performance and safety.
My wife drives a 2015 FORD FLEX LIMITED with the 3.5 liter, 360 hp twin turbo ecoboost engine - a 4800 lb station wagon that goes from 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, and still gets 20 mpg and carries 7 in comfort.
I drive a 2015 FORD F250 4x4 extended cab, long bed pickup, with a 6.2 liter V8 that has 400 hp, weighs 7500 lbs and gets an amazing 12 mpg.
Our last FLEX saved the lives of my wife and grandchildren......fuel mileage be damned.
Bachmann clearly made money all those years they produced that big variety of locos and they still offer a more "balanced" selection than most.
I have about 50 steam locomotives - BLI has only sold me 7, MTH has sold me 0, Proto2000 has sold me 4, Bachmann has sold me 34, mainly because of selection.
I know from conversations with other modelers I am not alone here.
Not everyone wants the same thing - again, I have never owned a Big Boy in my 50 years in this hobby.......
I would love it if an AC-9 was produced in modern Hybrid or plastic. My favorite SP loco (oh wait.... there’s’ cab forwards, consolidations, early cab forwards, Pacifics, Valley Malleys – oh never mind)
But as an SP fan you have to admit that, while very cool, this loco is a bit of an outlier. Totaling only 12 locos, burning coal in the original version, and limited to a couple of runs in the vast SP empire, they are not really representative of the SP roster as a whole. I can understand the reluctance of loco manufacturers when it comes to making a big run of these.
Consider that Akane did a run of AC 9’s and they regularly show up on Ebay. They usually go for what the MSRP would be on a plastic hybrid. Yes, that is expensive when you consider the 1960’s tooling and work needed to get them up to snuff running wise. On the bright side, a good running Akane will pull the paint off the walls and is a pretty sturdy mechanism...Of course there are more expensive brass runs by other importers but those usually wing out to over $1K.
Of course your mileage may vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
NWP SWPBut one day we'll all sit back and say I have enough Big Boys and wham no more sales!
Doubt it. Because in 2019, the UP Big Boy will be on the top of a whole bunch of Christmas lists. Why? Because a whole bunch of children (of all ages) will see 4014 run in real life, and think its the best thing since sliced cheese.
That having been said, I probably wont buy one (doesnt fit anything I'm modeling).
SP Locomotives:
I would check with Intermountain-Railway company. They are doing AC-8, 10, 11, 12. http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/loco/holocac12.htm
You could ask them about making an AC-9?
ATLANTIC CENTRALReliability? - car company with the most recalls in recent years - TOYOTA
Plus those takata airbag inflators... which is up to 46 million total inflators recalled from almost every brand of car sold in the US..
Pretty much the only accurate HO steam locomotive models made for the Boston and Maine were brass imports. MEC has had some plastic models that are close (various 2-8-2s from different manufacturers), no brass as far as I can tell.
Really wish someone would do a SD18 in plastic. One model will cover C&O, Chessie System, Chessie painted out for INRD, INRD, and I think VLIX (or some leasing company).
My NYC modeling is in 3rail O, so fewer issues there, but some glaring omissions (an actual J2 Hudson, an unstreamlined J3 hudson, H10 mikado, and EMD E7 probably others Im not remembering) MTH for some unexplained reason made an E6...
So O scale has better choices?
I would not say the choices are limited at all if you include all the fine brass models made in the last 40+ years. While the older ones need a can motor stuck in them(an easy task most of the time) and a paint job. Personally, there should be a model that is close enough that with some small modifications and a paint job that will fit the bill. Now maybe the RTR selection is a bit smaller. Many fine models of engines never made by anybody in model form, have been created by other modelers, starting with an engine that was a good starting point.
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
NWP SWP So O scale has better choices?
Three rail.. not really scale. PRR and NYC are well represented, as well as a few others. It depends entirely on the railroad you want to model. You can typically buy 2-5 HO locomotives for the price of 1 of the same scale 3rail O locomotives.
MTH is running the AC-6 and GS-4 this year, as well as a UP big boy. This year they are running all of the surviving road numbers for the UP Big Boy. Oddly they know what the 4014 will look like after the restoration is finished...because reasons.