Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Don,
You must live in Lake Woebegone. Every brand is above average...
...in some way.
Actually, I think you did a pretty good evaluation of what the strong points are of each brand.
Of course, if you were in narrowgauge, you'd know the answer for Grand Champion is Blackstone
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Hi Don
I would add Intermountain to your list for excellent customer service. I know you don't have any of their locomotives so its likely you wouldn't have had any experience dealing with them. All I can say is that they have gone way overboard with the service I have received. I have actually only had one slightly defective motor which they replaced at no charge even though I told them it was an eBay purchase and was slightly used. On several other occassions where I needed parts or advice they were equally as helpful. They even offered to help me re-write the programming on one of their factory supplied Loksound decoders to add in a function that the decoder didn't have.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Great start! However, you're not done! What about track, rolling stock, structures, DCC systems, DC systems, etc. etc... Now, get busy!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Best pullers: Bowser (Penn Line) Steam. The expression "will pull the wallpaper off the walls" was probably first used to describe the Penn Line steamers.
Detail fidelity is far from state of the art. Parts availability is inconsistent now that they are OOP, but they rarely need replacement parts.
Tom
I have to add Kato for best detailed. I still have NW2s from the early 90s that have better detailing than many other offerings.
I have to agree with you about Bachmann. I have an ALCO S-4, and all of the GE switchers who all run great and have good detailing.
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Mike Kieran
Port Able Railway
I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.
The major omission from this topic is Athearn Genesis for best detailed - prototypical details.
I had one of those NW2 - not bad. But KATO has lost the crown as a best detailed brand years ago. My RTR D&RGW Athearn SW1000 is better in the detail dept. as it has proto specific details in addition to the separate grab irons of the NW2.
Athearn and Athearn Genesis has taken over the crown in terms of detail during the past 10-12 years, no question. Even the RTR SD45T-2's have a good deal of prototypical detail, as well as SD45's and SD40T-2's, SW1000, SW1500 - tons. The latest GP40-2's even more. The SDP45's too. The list goes on and on.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Tru Dat!
I have a Southern NW2 that has the original Phase 1 single headlight. Southern had replaced all of thes headlights with twin sealed beam headlights.
What made the Kato and Atlas/Roco engines so great was their ability to run so smoothly at low speeds in straight DC.
For sure about running qualities. Other than the SD40-2 electrical pick up issue, resolved with later runs, KATO has long had a reputation for smooth quiet drives. I still have some 10 Stewart F7's, which were manufactured by KATO for Steve Stewarts line, and they run very nice. Even though they aren't up to Genesis in terms of detail and etched metal grills, they still look very decent and run like swiss watches - nice and heavy too.
One little complication for judging "best puller / steam locomotive" is that in many cases engines start out being awful pullers due to the high gloss of the driver tread, but become better pullers as the engine is run and the glossy finish is matted to some extent. Very common with brass steam but also the old Mantua and likely others.
Similarly best slow speed -- when is that judged, when the model is new out of the box or when it is run in a little? MR's product reviews usually acknowledge that the slow speed they test is likely to improve as the engine is run.
Dave Nelson
Don't forget MTH. Their engines are heavy, great pullers, and are less hit-and-miss out of the box than BLI.
We forgot the category for Most Entertaining Locomotive. My nomination goes to the Bachmann Spectrum GE 45 Tonner. With it's side rods spinning, it looks like a toddler who is just learning how to run.
I have mostly Athearns and they are great locomotives. The Genesis lines has excellent prototypical detail, and runs well. The hand rails are nicely detailed, but they aren't exactly straight even when you have the foam blocks in the majority of the time. However they do bend a bit so they won't get damaged as easily. The motor and gears are quiet and the locomotives run well. My one complaint is for $200+ I would want Kadee metal couplers or at least metal couplers instead of the plastic McHenrys. But it is a quick fix, at least the McHenrys look rusted.
The RTR series is great, but note the different levels of features they have. The GP38-2s and GP40-2s are great beginner models. They would also make a good superdetailing project. Maintance is super easy and the shell is even easier to remove. My only complaint is how the couplers are held on by plastic coupler boxes that snap onto the metal frame. They would look nice with a snowplow but then removing to shell would be more complicated. The new RTRs are DCC ready and have a lot of proto specific detail and are an excellent choice for building a fleet economically. Athearn has raised the bar by adding sound to the new SD40. I don't have one, but I have a SD40-2 that is very nice. I would highly recommend any of the Athearn models.
I have an Life-Like Proto 2000, and the details rival the Genesis. It is very heavy and pulls well. The headlight effects are awesome (it is a DC locomotive).
Overall your assessment of the various brands seems pretty "fair and balanced" in my opinion, and I would like to ad few comments.
First let me say my loco fleet is likely similar to yours and also sizable (130 powered units) and probably includes a lot of the same models since along with my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL, I model the C&O, B&O and WM. And, I also buy locos generally in groups of two or more of the same loco - not for parts, but to give the layout that "fleet" feeling of a real railroad.
Second, I think it is hard to judge by brand because they all make/have made some winners and loosers.
Third - what constitutes "current production" in this market today? Since few of the manufacturers want to "stock" anything for future customers, the list of truely "current" new models is pretty small. Virtually none of the locos I own is currently available new - OK maybe two or three have been re-run recently like the 2-6-6-6.
That said, a few comments about your choices.
Pulling Power - comparing Bachmann on average to BLI on average is like comparing a 2-8-0 to an C&O 2-10-4. Bachmann has offered way fewer "famous monsters" and way more small and mid sized "daily workers" than BLI - so we would hope that the 2-10-4's, 2-6-6-4's, 2-8-8-2's, 4-8-4's would be out pulling the 2-8-0's, 4-8-2's, 2-8-4's and 4-6-0's.
BUT, The Bachmann 4-8-2 Heavy is a fine puller, and the 2-10-2 and the 2-6-6-2 do well for their size also. And I added weight to my fleet of five 2-8-4's (converted to freelanced 2-8-2's) and they pull respectfully as well. I will agree completly that a few of the others are a little "light on their feet".
Broadway is also very fond of traction tires - Bachmann is not - opinions on that subject vary.......
Best Steam - I guess if you are looking for famous monsters and onboard sound, your choice is correct - neither of those aspects are important to me. I do have 7 BLI steamers, they all pull well and run fine, but I do not consider them better than my Bachmann or Proto steam, and I have had a few problems with BLI products......
Best Diesels - Atlas makes an outstanding diesel (or at least they have/had Bachmann's parent make it for them), but I don't own any of them - why? Selection and availablity. I don't like preordering, and VERY few of their models are in my era of interest.
For me, freelancing in 1954, the ruling diesels on my layout are pre Walthers Proto2000, Athearn Genesis, and Intermountain - the later two being mainly EMD F units.
Best Value - Bachmann Spectrum - I agree completely!
Now for my disclamer: Being a non sound, DC operator, I have no comment on the performance of decoders or sound systems. But I will say this - Broadway looses a lot of my attention and business because of the prototypes they choose and the fact that they only come with sound.
I have no problem buying basic decoder equiped locos and removing the decoders - in fact, those cheap Bachmann decoders sell rather well on Ebay. But paying a premium for sound that I will rip out - no thank you. Half of my Broadway fleet was bought when they still offered DC powered models. The rest of my Broadway fleet was bought at closeout prices ONLY, and the sound decoders are long gone. In fact a number of my Broadway locos now have Bachmann tenders......
And I strongly agree we should be thankful that Bachmann has been so willing to make "everyday" locos - those of us interested in creating a realistic roster for a working railroad would be lost without their offerings over the last 15 years.
My roster breaks down like this:
Steam:
33 - Bachmann (2-8-0, 4-8-2, 2-8-4H, 2-6-6-2, 2-10-2, 4-6-0)
7 - Broadway/PCM (4-8-4 Reading T-1, 2-6-6-4, 2-8-2H, 4-6-2H)
4 - Proto2000 (2-8-8-2, 0-8-0)
2 - Brass (PFM and Sunset - both 4-6-2L)
1 - IHC (4-6-2)
1 - Rivarossi (2-6-6-6 H8)
1 - Mantua (0-6-0)
1 - Athearn (2-8-2)
50 - Steam total
Diesel:
47 - Proto2000/1000 (all but three are pre Walthers - ALCO - PA/B, FA/B, S1, RS, EMD - BL2, GP7, F7, SD7, E8/9, SW)
12 - Athearn (most are old, remotored, rebuilt F7's and RDC's, 3 are newer RS units)
9 - Intermountain (all EMD F & FP units)
6 - Genesis (F units)
6 - Bachmann (Doodlebugs, 44 tonners, 70 tonners)
80 - Diesel total
Don, again, I think your assessment is very good, and should be of help to those new to the hobby.
Sheldon
To my mind the best brand is the brand I find that works best for me and those brands are Atlas yellow,red box and the Classic line,Athearn RTR and BB and LL P2K Geeps.
As you can see from this topic we all have our preferred brands based on our various needs..
The real answer should be find the brand(s) that fills your needs and go from there.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Sure, everyone can say what they like best, but it's apples and oranges - maybe good for a different topic on what people like best and why i specific areas. Based on the OP, this topic is broadly about which were over all best in various categories.
KyleI have an Life-Like Proto 2000, and the details rival the Genesis. It is very heavy and pulls well. The headlight effects are awesome (it is a DC locomotive).
Back on topic about which has product line/brand has best details:
Which LL Proto 2000 is that? The successor models that were upgraded and produced by Walthers, I might agree with you on, but the 10+ year old LL P2K models are good, but not as good as Genesis. Yes, they have nice detail - I have four different models from that line (GP30, SD7, SD9 and PA) but most of them have generic detailing - while the Genesis have prototypical detailing. Let me give you a concrete example on just how specific Athearn Genesis got between 3 different GP40-2's to match 3 real diesels as evidence below.
My D&RGW LL Proto 2000 GP30's do not have that kind of specific detailing setting them apart from other GP30's. They don't even have the correct Mars nose light, although they do have quite a bit of nice separately applied detail parts - they simply aren't in the same class.
Note below there are differences between each of 3 different GP40-2's produce in a single road name. This is modus operandi for Genensis and why they are presently in the lead by far.
· #3096
o Phase I o Straight coupler cut levers o 81” nose with ratchet brake and dual Gyralight o Early front and rear drop step o M.U. stand o Early Dash-2 battery box doorso Early cab with louvers o Riveted cab side plate with armrest o Nathan M3 air horn o Early ECAFBo Rounded blower housingo Early inertial intake grilles o Early dynamic brake hatch with T vent o Standard turbo exhaust o Chicken wire radiator grilles o Standard radiator fans o Curved radiator fan grab iron o Rear MU hose catch trays with reinforcing strip o Blomberg-B trucks with sloped and square bearing caps where appropriate o First generation speed recorder on left front axleo Era: 1972+· #3123
o Phase I o Straight coupler cut levers o M.U. stand o 81” nose with ratchet brake and dual Gyralighto Early front and rear drop step o Early Dash-2 battery box doors o Late cab without louverso Riveted cab side plate with armresto Nathan M3 air horn o Early ECAFB o Rounded blower housing o Intermediate inertial intake grilles o Early dynamic brake hatch with T vent and contactor dooro Standard turbo exhaust o Chicken wire radiator grilles o Standard radiator fans o Curved radiator fan grab iron o Rear MU hose catch trays with reinforcing strip o Blomberg-B trucks with Hyatt bearing caps o Intermediate speed recorder on left front axle o Era: 1974+ · #3129 and #3130
o Phase III o Late coupler cut levers with loops o Pilot mounted M.U. receptacle o Pointed anticlimber o 88” nose with ratchet brake and dual Gyralighto Toilet hatcho Round nose vent on right sideo Intermediate battery box doors with horizontal stiffening ribs o Late cab without louvers o Welded cab side plate with armrest o Leslie RSL3LR3 air horn with low-profile manifoldo Late ECAFB o Angled blower housing o Intermediate inertial intake grilleso Late dynamic brake hatch with T vent and contactor door o Late silencer exhaust o Corrugated radiator grilles o “Q” radiator fans o Angled radiator fan grab iron o Short walkway duct extension o Blomberg-B trucks with Hyatt bearing caps o Intermediate speed recorder on left front axle o Era: 1983+
The bolded lines are differences between earlier or later models. Pretty good eh!
Hi,
I've had most all the brands mentioned, several in quantity. In looking over the OP's assessment, I can't find any major flaws.
One category I would address is "availability" - either from the LHS or internet shops or Ebay.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Availability really depends alot on road names. Some road names like D&RGW, especially the more accurate models, tend to be hard to find. So availability isn't going to be just by brand, but by type and road name - pretty complicated to be comprehensive.
In N scale.
http://www.spookshow.net/trainstuff.html