Big Boy Forever...as I said several times, "I'm trying to be as realistic as possible". What "ain't possible", would probably fit into the gray areas of period accuracy that no one could confirm for sure, one way or another. A freelance shortline fits the bill. That fabricated shortline, interchanging with a realistic class one is the problem.
I'll address this point separately. The typical shortline will have a minimal range of equipment. While modelers sometimes like to create freelanced empires to use whatever cars they want, a real shortline is more likely to have a limited number or cars, most likely of only a few types. If you're modeling the "incentive per diem" era of the 1970s, you may have a fleet of identical new boxcars that would overfill every inch of track your line has - investors financed those for the free-runner fleet. In another scenario your railroad may rely solely on cars interchanged with the class ones, and own nothing beyond a few locos (and if the era or other circumstances determine it, cabooses). Since your earlier posts have suggested a modern~ish era, you're likely going to be switching mostly cars belonging to the class ones or contemporary lease fleets.
A shortline handling lumber for some mills might have double door boxcars, bulkhead flats, and wood chip gons. A granger road may have covered hoppers to serve on-line elevators. They're probably not making money just off short-haul business, so they need to interchange with the rest of the rail network, and the freight cars better be compliant (and if the class ones in your era are loading grain in 100-ton hoppers, or coal in 125-ton gons, your line will too if you want it to look right). If you desire plausibility, without having to explain everything that's atypical away, a ragtag fleet of old cars of various types (e.g. some billboard reefers here, 40' AAR boxcars there, 50-ton coal hoppers, etc.) isn't going to pass muster.
Rob Spangler
Big Boy Forever Realistically, you run across a good deal at a train show or private sale on rolling stock. You can't pass it up, you might not get another chance to get such a deal.
There is probably a way to fit most of what you just bought at a ludicrous price somehow, because "there is a prototype for everything", you just got to find it by looking and asking around.
Well, really there isn't a prototype for everything. There are a whole bunch of one off edge cases that only happen under a very limited set of circumstances at one spot. What happens are modelers string together several very improbable one off things together and then decide because they all existed separately in different eras and locales, for different reasons, then they are "prototypical" as a collection in the same era and locale without the supporting reasons. Not so much.
Once again before all the "my railroad my rules" guys start piling on, I'm talking about somebody who says they are being prototypical of a specific era and vision. If you are an anything goes modeler, sure, string together all the LDE's you want.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
wp8thsuband the freight cars better be compliant (and if the class ones in your era are loading grain in 100-ton hoppers, or coal in 125-ton gons, your line will too if you want it to look right).
As I mention before there lays a modern short line problem that is not easily fixed unless the short line request a grant for refurbishing the track but,that can be turn down for a number of reasons including the weight limit on the line's bridges..
Simply put many of today's short lines can not handle those heavier cars due to their track which consist of older light jointed rail and has FRA restricted weight limits.
Modeling a realistic short line requires more then just freight car knowledge and it requires serious study long before one lays the first piece of track.
Even the type of industries being served will depend on location of the purposed short line.
My layout,my rule doesn't really apply if one is serious about modeling a short line.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Big Boy Forever On the other hand maybe the SD70MACs are pulling some restored 36" billboard beer reefers to attend a antique train exposition at a museum somewhere. Plausible believability like all those cab units that was deadheaded to Spencer N.C. Those old time reefers would need to meet all of today's FRA requirements concerning safety and interchange. That would be kinda of neat to see such a gathering of beer reefers then have Southern #630 to pull them for a photo run by.
Big Boy Forever On the other hand maybe the SD70MACs are pulling some restored 36" billboard beer reefers to attend a antique train exposition at a museum somewhere.
Plausible believability like all those cab units that was deadheaded to Spencer N.C.
Those old time reefers would need to meet all of today's FRA requirements concerning safety and interchange.
That would be kinda of neat to see such a gathering of beer reefers then have Southern #630 to pull them for a photo run by.
Yeah, Spencer NC train show, was what I had in mind.
The , "FRA requirements concerning safety and interchange." is somethign I'm trying to get a handle on, since my mythical shortline needs to interchange witha class 1.
AND as I said, I'm trying to learn what cars I already have, would realistically be able to exchange with a class 1.
To:
Doughless
Trainnut1250
Wp8thsub
Dehusman
Brakie
Well OK, thanks for the detailed advice. In every endeavor there's going to be the ultimate purists "in action" in contrast to the ultimate purists, "in theory". You guys seem to be the purists "in action" actually living the dream.
In my case, I don't have all the fine, intricate detailed knowledge about the many aspects of train operation, equipment, cars and their eras etc., to the extent that you do.
What I'm simply trying to do is, "be as realistic as possible" with the equipment that I have.
First I need to categorize "what I have" before I can move on to the next step, and that is what I'm trying to do here with these various related threads, and suposedly, this is the forum to get some of that information.
I at least understand that Kadee couplers, and regular wide HO wheels are NOT realistic, but that is all I have, along with the new revelation today, that Athearn cars are too wide to be prototype accurate. All the other details on HO cars, that need to be modified, like, handrails, ladders, steps to be replaced with brass additions etc. is something I'm learning.
If I could know that what cars I have is of a particular era or time period, then I could move to the next step.
That's what I'm trying to find out.
Of course, "funds" to spend on getting the Model Railroading accuracy scenario is always an issue for anyone.
I don't have thousands to spend on brass equipment, and have seen the debates about the Athearn Big Boy and Marklin Big Boy being truly realistic, FOR EXAMPLE. So money gets you realism is really the bottom line.
Of course I already know someone is going to say, "NO, that is not true"...that's how it usually shakes out.
Big Boy Forever To: Doughless Trainnut1250 Wp8thsub Dehusman Brakie Well OK, thanks for the detailed advice. In every endeavor there's going to be the ultimate purists "in action" in contrast to the ultimate purists, "in theory". You guys seem to be the purists "in action" actually living the dream. In my case, I don't have all the fine, intricate detailed knowledge about the many aspects of train operation, equipment, cars and their eras etc., to the extent that you do. What I'm simply trying to do is, "be as realistic as possible" with the equipment that I have. First I need to categorize "what I have" before I can move on to the next step, and that is what I'm trying to do here with these various related threads, and suposedly, this is the forum to get some of that information. I at least understand that Kadee couplers, and regular wide HO wheels are NOT realistic, but that is all I have, along with the new revelation today, that Athearn cars are too wide to be prototype accurate. All the other details on HO cars, that need to be modified, like, handrails, ladders, steps to be replaced with brass additions etc. is something I'm learning. If I could know that what cars I have is of a particular era or time period, then I could move to the next step. That's what I'm trying to find out.
Absolutely. I think many of us have been in your shoes. My original response stated that realisim doesn't even have to be a goal in order for the hobby to be fun. But speaking from experience, once the bug for realism bites you, it sort of keeps knawing at you until you succumb.
Like beauty, realism can be in the eye of the beholder. It can be taken as far as you want. There are modelers who will criticize a company like Exactrail for painting a boxcar for a particular roadname, say NW, when the car has door latch and end details like a real Southern boxcar, instead of the real NW boxcar. Some would say that the $40 boxcar is unrealistic because of it. (Is it a good deal then at $25 some would ask) That may be taking the line too far. Others may see the one foot too wide OLDER Athearn boxcars as being no big deal. (Its just SOME older Athearn boxcars, not all Athearn cars) So the line of realism may vary from person to person, product to product even.
And researching what is real and what isn't, what is plausible and what may not be, is part of the fun too.
My only concern was that I think it is possible that you may never find a plausible scenario for ALL of your cars that you have bought, and that it might discourage you from pressing on. Its a great hobby.....draw your line of realism wherever makes you happy. Its okay if you wind up having cars that don't fit your vision. We all do.
- Douglas
Big Boy ForeverWell OK, thanks for the detailed advice. In every endeavor there's going to be the ultimate purists "in action" in contrast to the ultimate purists, "in theory". You guys seem to be the purists "in action" actually living the dream.
Well,yes one could say that but,know and understand I started studying short lines after I read MR's "A&R A Railroad You Can Model- The Aberdeen & Rockfish" in '65.I buy and retain every special Trains magazine "Short Line & Regional Railroad issues" and every issue that has a short line article plus I own "American Short Line Railway Guide" Kalmbach 1996..
I've spent hours on line looking over short lines web pages and then looking them up on Bing and Google maps.I have visited several short lines located in Ohio.
What can I say? I'm a short line junkie.
Big Boy ForeverYou guys seem to be the purists "in action" actually living the dream. ...What I'm simply trying to do is, "be as realistic as possible" with the equipment that I have. ...I at least understand that Kadee couplers, and regular wide HO wheels are NOT realistic, but that is all I have, along with the new revelation today, that Athearn cars are too wide to be prototype accurate. All the other details on HO cars, that need to be modified, like, handrails, ladders, steps to be replaced with brass additions etc. is something I'm learning. ...So money gets you realism is really the bottom line.
...What I'm simply trying to do is, "be as realistic as possible" with the equipment that I have. ...I at least understand that Kadee couplers, and regular wide HO wheels are NOT realistic, but that is all I have, along with the new revelation today, that Athearn cars are too wide to be prototype accurate. All the other details on HO cars, that need to be modified, like, handrails, ladders, steps to be replaced with brass additions etc. is something I'm learning.
...So money gets you realism is really the bottom line.
Whoa - reality check. Let's take a look at a few things on my roster. I've used at least some of these before, here and on other sites. Remember target era is 1978-1982.
At left is a train set Cox car from the 1970s, even has a cast-on running board! Plenty of older 40' cars like this survived into 1980 or so with running boards. I adapted it to my era with weathering and some decals for the consolidated stencils, ACI labels and yellow-dot U1 inspection symbols based on photos found online. I added metal wheelsets and Kadee couplers (I mostly use #5 or #148 standard head size).
In the center is an Atlas car. Again I added some decals based on photos and replaced couplers. This car's pretty close to its prototype.
The car at right is from Accurail. I used a Walthers kit to add some extended cushion draft gear, and yet again some decals, plus new wheelsets. It's not an especially accurate car, but looks sorta close enough to fool an average viewer because it has a typical period look.
None of these are latest-run expensive cars. You could probably find examples of the Cox or Accurail cars at a swap meet for reasonably cheap prices. I've had that old Cox boxcar since I was a kid.
This car was built from a Front Range kit. It was a bargain-bin purchase of a roadname and kit variety that wasn't selling and I didn't pay much for it (under $10). Due to the kit's design, I could modify the ladders to match prototype photos of similar cars, and easily leave the running board off. Add the usual decals, wheels, couplers and weathering and it fits right in. I also mounted some wire grabs on the roof and ends. It's probably not quite accurate either as I couldn't find a matching photo anywhere, but again looks close enough to seem right to most viewers.
This car is a 1990s vintage MDC kit, with the too-wide carbody and cast-on details. It resembles common cars in the area and era I model, so once again some decals and weathering, plus new wheels and couplers finish it.
This blue box Athearn flat got some weathering on the deck to look more like wood, and the decals/wheelsets/couplers like the others. Prototype photos suggested body color trucks were appropriate so I painted them , and final weathering will blend eveything.
This car was free. Somebody had the kit sitting in a box, decided he didn't want it, and gave it to me. Athearn's 50' flat isn't a very close model of anything, but as with the others I can fake a period look and put it to use.
Era-conscious modeling doesn't mean you have to engage in extensive re-work of cars, or buy the latest expensive stuff. Selecting likely candidates, and judiciously employing decals and weathering can yield a sufficiently convincing fleet for many of us.
Like I said several times now, I need to find a source for rolling stock identification so I can know what era my cars are and where I stand.
I have a few of those Athearn flat cars.
BRAKIE Big Boy Forever Well OK, thanks for the detailed advice. In every endeavor there's going to be the ultimate purists "in action" in contrast to the ultimate purists, "in theory". You guys seem to be the purists "in action" actually living the dream. Well,yes one could say that but,know and understand I started studying short lines after I read MR's "A&R A Railroad You Can Model- The Aberdeen & Rockfish" in '65.I buy and retain every special Trains magazine "Short Line & Regional Railroad issues" and every issue that has a short line article plus I own "American Short Line Railway Guide" Kalmbach 1996.. I've spent hours on line looking over short lines web pages and then looking them up on Bing and Google maps.I have visited several short lines located in Ohio. What can I say? I'm a short line junkie.
Big Boy Forever Well OK, thanks for the detailed advice. In every endeavor there's going to be the ultimate purists "in action" in contrast to the ultimate purists, "in theory". You guys seem to be the purists "in action" actually living the dream.
I've studied several real desert shortlines out west where I live. That's what I'm modeling.
Big Boy Forever Like I said several times now, I need to find a source for rolling stock identification so I can know what era my cars are and where I stand. I have a few of those Athearn flat cars.
Just ask the internet. There's no one source for all answers.
You've got the car, so you know what it is, what number's on it, what railroad. That's all you need to go from "I have this CP Rail ore car" to "here's a site that has a picture of one" to "that site had a link to a gallery of pictures of others of the class" to "there's no pictures before 1970 and none after 1998, so it stands to reason they appear in the early 70s and were gone by 99" in under two minutes.
On the Seneca Lake, Ontario, & Western RR (SLOW) it is Saturday, August 15, 1925 all the time..... 10:30 in the morning.... Partly cloudy skies and 83°F with the possibility of thunderstorms later in the day.
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Big Boy ForeverI've studied several real desert shortlines out west where I live. That's what I'm modeling.
Interesting short lines those..
Two of my favorites is Arizona & California and Arizona Eastern Railway.
BTW.The majority of my cars is Athearn BB,Accurail and Roundhouse.
Doughless Absolutely. I think many of us have been in your shoes. My original response stated that realisim doesn't even have to be a goal in order for the hobby to be fun. But speaking from experience, once the bug for realism bites you, it sort of keeps knawing at you until you succumb. Like beauty, realism can be in the eye of the beholder. It can be taken as far as you want. There are modelers who will criticize a company like Exactrail for painting a boxcar for a particular roadname, say NW, when the car has door hinge and end details like a real Southern boxcar, instead of the real NW boxcar. Some would say that the $40 boxcar is unrealistic because of it. (Is it a good deal then at $25?) That may be taking the line too far. Others may see the one foot too wide OLDER Athearn boxcars as being no big deal. (Its just SOME older Athearn boxcars, not all Athearn cars) So the line of realism may vary from person to person, product to product even. And researching what is real and what isn't, what is plausible and what may not be, is part of the fun too. My only concern was that I think it is possible that you may never find a plausible scenario for ALL of your cars that you have bought, and that it might discourage you from pressing on. Its a great hobby.....draw your line of realism wherever makes you happy. Its okay if you wind up having cars that don't fit your vision. We all do.
Like beauty, realism can be in the eye of the beholder. It can be taken as far as you want. There are modelers who will criticize a company like Exactrail for painting a boxcar for a particular roadname, say NW, when the car has door hinge and end details like a real Southern boxcar, instead of the real NW boxcar. Some would say that the $40 boxcar is unrealistic because of it. (Is it a good deal then at $25?) That may be taking the line too far. Others may see the one foot too wide OLDER Athearn boxcars as being no big deal. (Its just SOME older Athearn boxcars, not all Athearn cars) So the line of realism may vary from person to person, product to product even.
I don't expect to be 100% realistic. I'm just trying to get as realistic as possible. The first thing I'm trying to find out is what time period, the cars that I have, fit into. Once I get that taken care of, I can go to the next step.
I had a layout in a train room 34 years ago when my kids were little. I still have some of that gear, some Athearn, others Model Power and AHM, which I need to replace trucks, wheels and couplers. I'd like to super detail a few molded features after I grind them off. I also have several boxes of Athearn gear I bought at an estate sale, all with Kadee couplers. I have a few Bachman engines and about 7 Athearn engines and 3 engine dummies.
All in all I have about 60 frieght cars.
I have a partially built, open grid 5' X 10' inclined track plan mountain logging layout that I never finished with Atlas Code 83 Shinohara Code 70 and Micro Engineering Code 55 track.
Now I'm just doing a few flat modules of a yard and a few industries totalling about 2 X 12 foot long as I may be moving.
Time and money
BRAKIE Big Boy Forever I've studied several real desert shortlines out west where I live. That's what I'm modeling. Interesting short lines those.. Two of my favorites is Arizona & California and Arizona Eastern Railway. BTW.The majority of my cars is Athearn BB,Accurail and Roundhouse.
Big Boy Forever I've studied several real desert shortlines out west where I live. That's what I'm modeling.
Arizona & California is one, also Apache RR not verbatum replicas, but just as examples or reference for my freelance shortline.
Well to address your concern. 40 and 50' cars with high ladder,brake wheel and roof walk can fit into 78/79 and they will look at home with the modern low ladder cars.
As I mention else where..I model 78/79 since 80% of my cars fit that era.
However,when nobody is peeking around the corner watchin' a Seaboard System GP38-2 magically appears..
Oopsy!
Seaboard System didn't come about until 1980.
BRAKIE Well to address your concern. 40 and 50' cars with high ladder,brake wheel and roof walk can fit into 78/79 and they will look at home with the modern low ladder cars. As I mention else where..I model 78/79 since 80% of my cars fit that era. However,when nobody is peeking around the corner watchin' a Seaboard System GP38-2 magically appears.. Oopsy! Seaboard System didn't come about until 1980.
Where did you get that information on those box cars?
You mean roof walks "Z" shaped?
Run what you have, and have fun. As your knowledge base expands, your equipment roster can change to reflect that expanded knowledge. As I recently reminded a friend, the prototype police are all in our heads. You'll sleep better if you remember that.
Tom
Big Boy ForeverLike I said several times now, I need to find a source for rolling stock identification so I can know what era my cars are and where I stand.
These sites have been suggested here and there, but these are the major ones (save to your favorites/bookmarks, as you'll need them often):
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/
http://www.railcarphotos.com/index.php?
http://freight.railfan.ca/
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/railroadList.aspx
Also, for general information, try:
http://www.fcix.info/ref.htm
http://www.railgoat.railfan.net/index.htm
If you cannot find a photo of a car on one of the major sites, chances are you're out of luck, but Google may still be your friend. You can try searching for historical societies, finding old magazine artticles on freight car history, including the out of print magazines on Train Life http://www.trainlife.com/ and/or gaining access to the Morning Sun books on a particular railroad. You still may end up without a photo for a specific car, and given how often model manufacrturers make schemes up, and even invent entire cars, you'll find that a lot.
You asked about dates for running boards on house cars. For gee-whiz purposes here's the regulation on safety appliances http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/231.27 . Basically a house car (boxcar, reefer) delivered after 10/1/1966 was to have no running board, four-rung ladders, and a low-mounted brake wheel. Existing cars were to be modified with the running board removed, A end ladders shortened to four rungs, and an L-shaped grab on the roof at the B end replacing the grab that was originally on the running board (if the brakewheel and ladders on the B end remained at their original height [most roads did not lower the brakewheel or B end ladders]). A yellow label stating "keep off roof no running board" was to be placed on the side of the car adjacent to the B end ladders (decals are available for this). The initial date set for older cars to be in compliance was in 1974, but that proved unattainable so it was extended to 1983. Having a few cars with pre-1966 safety appliances is fine during this timeframe, but they'll look out of place later. I posted photos earlier of what a modified older car looks like.
Read what you can, absorb what you can from dated photos, and you'll start to get an idea what's appropriate. From that knowledge, you can make educated guesses about which cars will work, and how they should look. With many of my cars I had to make the best guess I could based on what photos were available. Sometimes I find out I guessed wrong but such is life. Eventually you may find just the right photo, but holding off until you have perfect information is a good way to get frustrated. Do your best with what you know.
Big Boy Forever This all gets into the architectural and changing societal aspects of model railroading, in addition to the artistry and engineering, when attempting to model the real world, another feature that makes for a great hobby pursuit.
You are right on point with that. That's why I look at my modeling as trying to recreate a time and place that people will feel like they've been there, where things are familiar, but they can't quite place it and dont' know why. I proto freelance for that reason so I model the familiar without modeling an exact place. So everyone can feel at home rather than only one person, who happens to come from that town and who can then tell me I got it wrong anyway.
Big Boy ForeverWhere did you get that information on those box cars? You mean roof walks "Z" shaped?
Some standard 40 and 50' boxcars with roof walks lasted into the late 70s before being pulled out of service.
I suggest looking through photos of SCL,Family Lines,Chessie,BN on the Railroad fallen flag web site.
Also
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/default.aspx
Speaking of a way to use a caboose in modern times..........
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2225407
I'm pretty finicky when it comes to keeping to the late 1940's. it is the era I relate to most that is why I model to represent that time
This could be a sign of mild OCD. This shows up in other modeling I do coz I don't like mixing up scales either . It's, 1/48 for military aircraft & 1/72 for airliner models. I model 1/43 auto's - all very neat & tidy.
But those are just how I like to do it.
For other people it's not the same & it is OK to do what makes you feel good and is part of how a
hobby or interest is enjoyed
Dusty.