More of a nonsensical curiosity than a pertinant question, I was wondering, how many of you still design your layouts with pencil and paper? I don't mean the rough sketch or draft, yet with pencil, eraser, architectural ruler and compass. Templates and grid paper with tape on all four corners. The drawing to be used as the actual 'blueprint' of the build.
Just wondering if this is a lost art too, what with having all the CAD type programs and the flash of the internet that we have today. Do you draw, do you CAD, or do you use both?
I use both.
I think they compliment each other. Paper is great for developing general concepts. CAD helps translate those concepts into reality and lets me know if an idea will really work. I find paper to be much more user friendly and enjoyable.
I'm a luddite with very poor computer skills. That's either a reason or an excuse (take your pick) for doing it the way I was taught in High School, 50+ years ago.
There's a satisfaction that comes from the tactile experience of doing it that way, and I don't think I'd get the same feeling from doing it with a computer. Maybe I'll have to join the throng & learn the new ways, but I'm getting along OK for now.
I do.
I have architect programs that I use to design houses on for a hobby. We are hoping our next and last house will be one we have designed. They are great. But when it comes to the layout give me a pad of paper any day. I would use a small pad of graph paper at work in down times and then transfer it to this larger pad I got at staples for $7.00.
People say that a program is more exact in designing their layout and they won't get any argument from me. However once the rubber hits the road and we start with the benchwork and then laying track, as soon as you start snipping rail or moving something left or right, that exactness is out the window.
When designing layouts as a hobby unto itself, by all means spend your money on a great program and have fun. The engineering I acomplish in my tiny brain seems to get the job done for me though.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Like some others I am 50 years out of high school.
I have tried two different CAD programs, and the learning curve was much too hard and long.
I actually didn't draw anything but layout tables and mainline general outline before building my layout.
Dave Murray
When I was working, my lunch time activity in addition to lunch was drawing layouts on graph paper. Initially I used a compass and ruler, but over time the grid was enough.
I still prefer pencil and graph paper. On the layout I use yard sticks, beam compass, and templates to layout the design. I mock it up with track and then make changes. When I have it looking pretty good I start laying roadbed and track.
Enjoy
Paul
Nothing beats pencil and paper to make my track plans. I love designing them on paper for the past 25+ years (28). I never had a computer when growing up until 13. Plus to my it seems like a waste of money on a track plan design program.
After I finished the track plan that I liked, then I'll transfer it my Atlas or Kato track to see if it fits. Sometimes when the track is arranged it may look questionable at a good or bad scenario.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
I do my rough planning in Armstrong squares on quadrille paper.
My final plans, usually made just before laying track, are made full size on card stock, which then becomes track templates that are incorporated into permanent construction.
I learned a long time ago that detailed small-scale track plans never translate to finished trackwork without undergoing significant modification.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I built my complete (2500 sq ft) layout on a rough draft on Graph Paper!
I started designing using a CAD program but found that I was going to devote a 6 month period in getting GOOD with the program to just begin making serious designs!
That is 6 MONTHS - I could be building the Layout.
Yah! - What about mistakes?
I made a few - but more importantly I was able to change the design in minutes and not have to consalt a COMPUTER to tell me I could.
A Ruller and looking at the area were all I needed.
I could visualize the design as I had the Graph paper initial design right there and not on a Computer!
I didn't have to run to the computer to ask permission if this will work or not!
I just started making the change!
The initial plan - most of the ends of the layout were 3 track staging.
But once the initial design (per the Graph Paper one) was mocked up - I found I had more room to add another level (which isn't easy to see on a computer screen) and added another complete independent railroad to the Layout.
Something only a person with years of CAD might be able to do!
And I saw this many time as our Engineerine Dept at work - the engineers would have to go down to the production floor to see what the first Home actually looked like to see if their paper/CAD design would actually work!
The CAD design said that line would miss the other and it did BUT only by fraction of an inch and no HAND in the world would allow you to reach in and make the connection!
So much for CAD designers in my book!
Has anyone ever looked under the hoods of the modern automobile and wonder where the engine is?
And you wonder WHY it costs so much to get the car fixed - It wasn't the mechanics fault for the design - WAS IT?
SO I will stick with good old Paper and Pencil !
In having built over 20 layouts this way and most on here are barely get to build one or two - learning CAD to do just one - might be a waste!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I use graph paper, plastic circle templates, and a compass to design modules, shelf layouts and switching layouts. If I have something I really like; I have a friend who will use Xtracad to put it in a digital format for me.
I do not have the patience to use Xtracad or the Atlas software; I have both, but can use neither.
I do all my layout planning with the help of an older version of WinRail (essentially RTS from Atlas, but with an extended library covering numerous different makes of track). As with all computer programs, there is a learning curve to it. And, just like all CAD systems, it does not do the design work for you. It´s just a "smart" drawing tool.
I do my layout's initial track planning in XtrakCad. I did the first part in RTS, before that computer crashed and Atlas withdrew support for it. I found it easier to play What If games with computer plans, because I could simply make a copy of a plan and branch off from there.
I'm still working on the final plan for Phase 3 of the layout. I found the program very useful for building the benchwork, because the program does all the measuring for me. I know roughly how I want the track to go, and the program showed me what works in terms of turnouts and curve radii. When it comes to the final track layout, though, that will be done 1:1 on top of the pink foam.
Sometimes, I use pencil, paper and a ruler, but also scissors and tape.
This is a tight space, and most of the buildings were made from DPM modulars, so I wanted to get the right sizes and shapes and crowd them in to get the tight urban look I desired. Before this, I took a big sheet of paper and drew things out to get the track and canal locations roughed in.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I can, and do use them both. It depends on whether the modeler I'm designing the layout for is across town or across the country. If the "client" is local, I'll ask how he would like to see it, drawn with pencils, architech scale and compass and french curves, or would he like it drawn in XtrackCad.
Why Xtrackcad? #1 it's free. #2 he can download a copy to his computer, and I can send changes that we've discussed via e-mail. Most of the times, all the client needs to do is to be able to open the program, and import the new file. I will teach him the basics of the program, which I learned simply through the demos, as there was no "external tutorials", that sometimes overcomplicates a really simple procedure.
I'll have him open the latest 2 "versions" in half-screens on his computer, so he can see exactly what I was talking about. Many times I will get suggestions that work better than mine, and I'll draw them in. In older days, this simple process, could take weeks and weeks via snail mail, and numerous erased areas that can actually be harder to see due to the paper damage caused by an eraser, because of some prior changes made in the same area.
While I can do both, I now like the CAD programs better, and I've tried/got them all, 3rd Planit, CADRail, Scram, XtrackCad, etc. Of these I prefer XtrackCAD, it was, for me, extremely easy to catch on to, and I've used it since it was first offered as Shareware.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
100+ layouts designed with 3rd PlanIt.
When one is designing a layout for someone else to build, precision and flexibility in accommodating multiple revisions make CAD worthwhile. For one layout, designed for oneself, it’s somewhat harder to justify the learning curve.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cmrproductsBut once the initial design (per the Graph Paper one) was mocked up - I found I had more room to add another level (which isn't easy to see on a computer screen) and added another complete independent railroad to the Layout. Something only a person with years of CAD might be able to do!
Didn't take me years to be able to do that with CAD. Using layers and showing elevations, it's pretty easy to see issues and opportunities such as this.
Hand-drawn is fine, CAD is fine. But I think it's important to be fair to each.
This isn't a right or wrong question. It is simply a matter of what works for you.
To answer the OP's question, I use 3rdPlanIt:
No fudging.
What I design will fit in the space I have.(Yes, I have tested that).
When needed I can print the layout 1:1 in a few minutes to use as a template.
Most importantly, corrections and modifications are easy. Case in point: in my ignorant bliss I designed an engine service facility which depended on a turntable to function. A recent thread pointed out how unrealistic and inefficient that was. It took me less that 1/2 hr. to make the necessary modifications to the plan and my desk wasn't covered in bits of eraser.
"To each his own!" "Run what ya brung!" "Its my railroad...."
to whatever method you choose!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
So what you are saying - no mistakes in the drawing when using CAD and easy access without ever seeing the actual work in person!
As I stated - I have worked with PROs that have had many more years of experience and they still wanted to see the finished product and then have to redraw the plan!
But I can make the changes on site and not have to go running for my little CAD program to tell me I can do something that I am standing right there seeing!
Some people just have no vision to be able to see things without a machine telling them what can be done on something so simple as a Model Layout! ;-)
PM RailfanMore of a nonsensical curiosity than a pertinant question, I was wondering, how many of you still design your layouts with pencil and paper?
Nope never did..I plan in my head as I build..The few ISL plans I have post in topics is nothing more then a general idea.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cmrproductsSo what you are saying - no mistakes in the drawing when using CAD and easy access without ever seeing the actual work in person!
So far, fortunately, yes, pretty much every time.
cmrproductsAs I stated - I have worked with PROs that have had many more years of experience and they still wanted to see the finished product and then have to redraw the plan!
I don't have that option. The client is only going to build the layout once. No ECOs.
cmrproductsSome people just have no vision to be able to see things without a machine telling them what can be done on something so simple as a Model Layout! ;-)
You seem to be taking my post personally, no offense was intended. Signing off.
Even though I am a computer nerd and worked the industry for 45 years, I designed my laoyout using pencil and paper. Once I had the general concept down I used sheets of graph paper taped together so that the squares were one inch each. that meant my 39 X 12.5 foot layout was 468 X 150 squares. That was 14 sheets long and 5 sheets wide. As stated above when it came to building the layout the exact measurements made it easy.
I've drawn all my layouts (since advancing past the basic 4x8 of my youth) with CAD of some sort. 2 layouts ago I actually printed the thing to full size - never again! My main purpose with a CAD drawing is that I can verify that what I am trying to do will fit, with no fudging. It's too easy to fudge a bit with pencil and paper, unless you faithfully adhere to a technique like Armstrong's Squares. The object of my plan is not to match up the location of each and every track to the millimeter to agree with the plan, the plan is there to validate my design and to serve as a guide, not a template.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Personally, I can use graph paper, tracing paper, pencil, compass and a ruler without having to think about how to make the drawing. When I tried to use a CAD program I was thinking about how to use the program and not about the concept of the layout. The way I managed a complex double deck layout (with hidden staging behind/below both decks) was to use 5 drawings for different levels and areas. That way I could make multiple revisions in different areas without needing to change other areas.
Additional drawings/sketches were used for the benchwork planning and construction. I used full size cardboard mockups for laying out the sub-roadbed and riser locations and paper templates as patterns to cut curved sub-roadbed sections from plywood sheets.
Electrical schematics and sketches show the design and record the 'as built' configuration wiring (nomenclature, wire color and tag color) of power districts and turnout control mini-panels. The appropriate descriptive nomenclature is written on the underside of the benchwork at the apprpriate wire terminations (drops and terminal blocks).
Grinnell
Other than a rudimentary rough conceptual sketch, which I never refer to, I do it in my head. I've built 6 layouts that way, the last one is 12 x 23, double decker, around the walls with a dogbone in the middle.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Just a quick question, are the files generated in xtrakcad and/or 3rdplanit easily translated into AutoCAD?
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
My first layout was from the little blue Atlas Snap Track booklet. The second was hand drawn, maybe also using paper turnout copies to fit together complex turnout areas. The current layout was using XTrackCAD to refine a layout from a rough sketch. But first I had played with various type layouts that might have gone in 3 different rooms (garage, attic, interior).
Then I marked the (plywood) layout surface wiith a 6" grid, placed the critical turnout locations and connected with appropriate radius drawn curves, tweaking things along the way, Then cork roadbed, then install turnouts and connect with flextrack.
I would use XTrackCAd again, though it has a learning curve. It's just a matter of preference.
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent