Burlington Northern #24 ok, so it's an unfavorable thing for the hobby according to some. I can see why you guys don't want to pay on pre orders but what if it were an option?
For me the answer would be no way..
Why?
A lot of the new releases have QC issues..I would rather wait and read reviews and watch videos on the new engine on you tube then base my purchase on my judgment.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Well, I only preordered one time, and it worked out OK, but I don't like the price games that seem to be played with the brands that promote the "preorder" scheme the most.
Now I special order all sorts of stuff from my LHS that is in stock somewhere - but these are products with know track records, not vapor wear that may not run worth a darn.
Sheldon
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24 ok, so it's an unfavorable thing for the hobby according to some. I can see why you guys don't want to pay on pre orders but what if it were an option? For me the answer would be no way.. Why? A lot of the new releases have QC issues..I would rather wait and read reviews and watch videos on the new engine on you tube then base my purchase on my judgment.
Me too! I model on a hard and tight budget (and I doubt that I am alone in that...and I doubt that that is something new in this hobby). That doesn't mean that I don't want/desire/covet subject A. Nor does it mean that subject A is out of my price range or that pre-ordering is beyond my financial means. It merely means (...to me...) that I cannot risk tying up a tight modeling budget on something that may or may not happen, or may or may not perform for the amount of cash dropped on said item (a.k.a QC issues). I want to know that item A is worth what I am dropping coinage wise pior to dropping said coinage. Now, some astute individual will counter that there are no guarantees in life regardless. And I agree. However, I like to mitigate the risks and go from there. Hence no pre-order for this modeler. If I snooze and lose...so-be-it. Them's the brakes and such is life. No mambe-pambe, everyone's a winner here. I simply cannot take the risk....personally. But if you can and want to...have at it! I have survived this long and suspect that I can still hang on for awhile longer . Each to their own.
Happy modeling.
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
EMD.Don BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24 ok, so it's an unfavorable thing for the hobby according to some. I can see why you guys don't want to pay on pre orders but what if it were an option? For me the answer would be no way.. Why? A lot of the new releases have QC issues..I would rather wait and read reviews and watch videos on the new engine on you tube then base my purchase on my judgment. Me too! I model on a hard and tight budget (and I doubt that I am alone in that...and I doubt that that is something new in this hobby). That doesn't mean that I don't want/desire/covet subject A. Nor does it mean that subject A is out of my price range or that pre-ordering is beyond my financial means. It merely means (...to me...) that I cannot risk tying up a tight modeling budget on something that may or may not happen, or may or may not perform for the amount of cash dropped on said item (a.k.a QC issues). I want to know that item A is worth what I am dropping coinage wise pior to dropping said coinage. Now, some astute individual will counter that there are no guarantees in life regardless. And I agree. However, I like to mitigate the risks and go from there. Hence no pre-order for this modeler. If I snooze and lose...so-be-it. Them's the brakes and such is life. No mambe-pambe, everyone's a winner here. I simply cannot take the risk....personally. But if you can and want to...have at it! I have survived this long and suspect that I can still hang on for awhile longer . Each to their own. Happy modeling. Don.
Don, well said. I too am very "risk adverse", not just with model trains but with most financial matters, and it has served me well in life.
I have said on here many time how I only buy models that fit my theme and that I am not a "random collector". Also, I have in 40 plus years at this hobby, only purchased one or two models I latter changed my mind about and sold.
I have most everything I have purchased in the last 35-40 years. I think carefully before buying and am not an "impulse" shopper.
I would be seriously po'ed if I plunked down the big bucks for some preorder and it turned out to be a dog.
Still shopping at those shops with big bloated inventories of model trains that actually exist.
ok, my reasons for my thoughts and my thoughts on this topic still stand. Thank you for your responses guys, seems like I'm the odd man out.
and we made it 4 pages with out a lock.
Bear I never got to answer your post, I had been saving and waiting but recent events have caused the money for the locomotives to disappear because money was directed towards other things that were not MRRing purchases. my last Model railroading purchase was probably in late may, early June I can't remember when. My work also cut my hours down to zero so I've lost a lot in money and time, hopefully I can get a new job soon.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Burlington Northern #24Bear I never got to answer your post, I had been saving and waiting but recent events have caused the money for the locomotives to disappear because money was directed towards other things that were not MRRing purchases. my last Model railroading purchase was probably in late may, early June I can't remember when. My work also cut my hours down to zero so I've lost a lot in money and time, hopefully I can get a new job soon.
Gidday Gary. Cold comfort, for a young bloke,I know but I suspect that most of us on this forum have gone or still go through your scenario from time to time. I've got a quiet patch now but as my signature indicates I prefer to look on the optimistic side of life, and besides I do have projects stashed away so I can keep my hand in. Hope things work your way.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
"JaBear" Burlington Northern #24Bear I never got to answer your post, I had been saving and waiting but recent events have caused the money for the locomotives to disappear because money was directed towards other things that were not MRRing purchases. my last Model railroading purchase was probably in late may, early June I can't remember when. My work also cut my hours down to zero so I've lost a lot in money and time, hopefully I can get a new job soon. Gidday Gary. Cold comfort, for a young bloke,I know but I suspect that most of us on this forum have gone or still go through your scenario from time to time. I've got a quiet patch now but as my signature indicates I prefer to look on the optimistic side of life, and besides I do have projects stashed away so I can keep my hand in. Hope things work your way. Cheers, the Bear.
Burlington Northern #24ok, my reasons for my thoughts and my thoughts on this topic still stand. Thank you for your responses guys, seems like I'm the odd man out.
No,not the odd man out..You're a N Scaler which means you need to buy what you want now or lament later like I said earlier.
N Scale doesn't give much of a option if you need that (say) GN GP35 in BSB since very few is made above the pre orders and has the tenancy to sell out quickly...
Things seem to have calmed somewhat, so let's continue, because I think there's fundamentally more agreement here than disagreement, as shocking as that might sound.
Sheldon,
I was thinking of smaller outfits and got to thinking after I wrote that it probably doesn't apply to the Atlases, Athearns, Bachmanns, etc of our little neck of the hobby universe as we were discussing here. That and start-ups that never quite started up. I vaguely recall a SD-40, passenger cars, maybe a throttle, but my CRS doesn't pull up details. In any case, I don't think you're suggesting that the laws of capitalism should be suspended for model railroading. And it's certainly true that many small businesses, no matter what the field, are just one bad decision away from going broke -- and do so regularly.
Yes, it is about knowing your customers at all levels in this biz. Sure, buying a inventory on your best hunches and then seeing what sells is one way to determine what they want. Another is clearly pre-ordering, whatever you may think of the practice. Guess which one is less costly in terms of capital, probably gives a better idea of how many models might actually be sold, and has been widely adopted in the industry? All I can say is that folks who have adopted it seem to be doing OK financially in a tough environment -- they're still bringing in new product regularly -- and that it isn't what one or two outliers are doing. It's virtually an industry standard, at least for those vendors who make a practice of importing stock from overseas.
I also don't see how things now are really all that different than in the past for a hobby shop committed to stocking trains. Instead of ordering the same carton of 40' boxcars with the same selection of roadnames and numbers twice or three times a year, you order in what's available in the warehouse at your distributor or vendor. I guess I don't see how the first option does much for the regular customer, which as folks know are the bread-and-butter of retail, but how the second option is more likely to generate an impulse buy.
There's something else going on here that also hasn't been mentioned. As we know, most hobby shops either have an online presence or are seriously thinking about it. When that does happen, that inventory that used to be picked over by folks mostly within 30 miles or less of the store is now available on the web. Now consider that car that came in that turned out everyone wants. Now it's possible for people all over the world to be checking Podunk Junction's inventory. That means even when stuff is stocked in a particular hobby shop because of the good judgement of the owner and turns out to be popular, the local guy that wants it may get beat if he didn't pre-order.
And the store owner who does still order for stock still needs to be careful, because unsold stock could build-up that no one wants, because there were too many produced for the demand. That's what tended to build up in the old days when inventory was relatively cheaper. Special ordering is part of it, but it's actually about the cost of inventory overall and that probably wouldn't change even if we went back to the same car paint and road number stocked for years.
The real trick in retail is keeping the shelves stocked with merchandise that sells. Pre-ordering is pretty tangential in my book to whether or not a shop owner decides to stock his shelves or not. It certainly doesn't prevent it in any way I can figure out. One's inventory is determined by access to capital, customer knowledge, and good judgment from being in the trade. Special ordering simply provides a more varied palette of choices. More cars and variations being produced also make it far more likely that something specific the modeler wants will be produced. Should that then be stocked to eternity? Probably not. People anymore rarely buy duplicate car numbers unless doing a unit train, even if they're not that big on prototype conformity otherwise. And someone else is probably thinking of a car they'd like produced, which if the vendors is smart, they move on to do. Yes, you do need to grab things when they are available, but if you don't, they're still available somewhere at some price that can be found through the internet.
Finally, I suspect your aversion to modern modeling is coloring your views on this more than you may realize. I think it's a generational thing, I certainly share the same aversion. But the idea of there always being new product to sell by keepin' up with the Joneses is a marketing dept's dream, if for no other reason than to keep things from getting stale.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24ok, my reasons for my thoughts and my thoughts on this topic still stand. Thank you for your responses guys, seems like I'm the odd man out. No,not the odd man out..You're a N Scaler which means you need to buy what you want now or lament later like I said earlier. N Scale doesn't give much of a option if you need that (say) GN GP35 in BSB since very few is made above the pre orders and has the tenancy to sell out quickly...
mlehman Things seem to have calmed somewhat, so let's continue, because I think there's fundamentally more agreement here than disagreement, as shocking as that might sound. Sheldon, I was thinking of smaller outfits and got to thinking after I wrote that it probably doesn't apply to the Atlases, Athearns, Bachmanns, etc of our little neck of the hobby universe as we were discussing here. That and start-ups that never quite started up. I vaguely recall a SD-40, passenger cars, maybe a throttle, but my CRS doesn't pull up details. In any case, I don't think you're suggesting that the laws of capitalism should be suspended for model railroading. And it's certainly true that many small businesses, no matter what the field, are just one bad decision away from going broke -- and do so regularly. Yes, it is about knowing your customers at all levels in this biz. Sure, buying a inventory on your best hunches and then seeing what sells is one way to determine what they want. Another is clearly pre-ordering, whatever you may think of the practice. Guess which one is less costly in terms of capital, probably gives a better idea of how many models might actually be sold, and has been widely adopted in the industry? All I can say is that folks who have adopted it seem to be doing OK financially in a tough environment -- they're still bringing in new product regularly -- and that it isn't what one or two outliers are doing. It's virtually an industry standard, at least for those vendors who make a practice of importing stock from overseas. I also don't see how things now are really all that different than in the past for a hobby shop committed to stocking trains. Instead of ordering the same carton of 40' boxcars with the same selection of roadnames and numbers twice or three times a year, you order in what's available in the warehouse at your distributor or vendor. I guess I don't see how the first option does much for the regular customer, which as folks know are the bread-and-butter of retail, but how the second option is more likely to generate an impulse buy. There's something else going on here that also hasn't been mentioned. As we know, most hobby shops either have an online presence or are seriously thinking about it. When that does happen, that inventory that used to be picked over by folks mostly within 30 miles or less of the store is now available on the web. Now consider that car that came in that turned out everyone wants. Now it's possible for people all over the world to be checking Podunk Junction's inventory. That means even when stuff is stocked in a particular hobby shop because of the good judgement of the owner and turns out to be popular, the local guy that wants it may get beat if he didn't pre-order. And the store owner who does still order for stock still needs to be careful, because unsold stock could build-up that no one wants, because there were too many produced for the demand. That's what tended to build up in the old days when inventory was relatively cheaper. Special ordering is part of it, but it's actually about the cost of inventory overall and that probably wouldn't change even if we went back to the same car paint and road number stocked for years. The real trick in retail is keeping the shelves stocked with merchandise that sells. Pre-ordering is pretty tangential in my book to whether or not a shop owner decides to stock his shelves or not. It certainly doesn't prevent it in any way I can figure out. One's inventory is determined by access to capital, customer knowledge, and good judgment from being in the trade. Special ordering simply provides a more varied palette of choices. More cars and variations being produced also make it far more likely that something specific the modeler wants will be produced. Should that then be stocked to eternity? Probably not. People anymore rarely buy duplicate car numbers unless doing a unit train, even if they're not that big on prototype conformity otherwise. And someone else is probably thinking of a car they'd like produced, which if the vendors is smart, they move on to do. Yes, you do need to grab things when they are available, but if you don't, they're still available somewhere at some price that can be found through the internet. Finally, I suspect your aversion to modern modeling is coloring your views on this more than you may realize. I think it's a generational thing, I certainly share the same aversion. But the idea of there always being new product to sell by keepin' up with the Joneses is a marketing dept's dream, if for no other reason than to keep things from getting stale.
Mike, I don't disagree with any of that. As you say there is likely more agreement than disagreement.
A few fine points if I may. There is a difference between the following:
Athearn announcing something they are definately going to make (we know they will make it, they have OWNED the tooling for 4 decades and sold them all every time), taking preorders from dealers, using that to guage demand, and possibly increasing or decreasing final production size, or scheduling a quickly timed second run.
VS,
BLI announcing a B&O P7 Pacific, taking preorders, showing artwork, issuing part numbers, never getting enough orders, scraping the project, years later reviving the project, doing a half way job by making a USRA light Pacific, sticking a USRA heavy Mikado boiler on it, getting the paint job, loco names and road numbers not correctly matched on half the production and calling that a success that I should be excited to buy - 4 or 5 years later?
While they may ALL be using preorders in one way or another, Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers, Bowser (who has canceled a few projects do to lack of interest), are still LARGELY making trains first, selling them second, not the other way around.
It may be a fine point, but there is a difference.
Sure shops should special order, sure, nobody can have EVERYTHING in stock ALL the time.
You make the comment about source of supply, and we have talked about this before. To sell at any discount of 20% or more, you need to be buying at least most of your product direct from the manufacturer - or you are doomed to failure. You may not believe that, and there may be a few guys with no overhead who can work on next to no margin, but for the most part, it can not be done.
There is an old joke among hobby shop owners:
"how do you make a small fortune in the hobby business?" - "start with a large one"
Yes it is a tough business, preorders have not made it better.
As for inventory that does not sell, we never tracked that by item (there were no computer inventories), we tracked the DOLLAR turnover of our inventory. As long as that was were it should be, we assumed every piece of inventory we had, had value. Sure, you would occasionally identify something that was no longer selling, and not reorder it when it did sell. Or even have a "small" sale to send it on its way. But never did you look at stuff like Athearn freight cars and say this stuff has been here too long - let's blow it out.
Make the trains, then sell them.
mlehman More cars and variations being produced also make it far more likely that something specific the modeler wants will be produced.
More cars and variations being produced also make it far more likely that something specific the modeler wants will be produced.
Perhaps this is a fundamental assumption that needs questioning. Is it really true? In one sense it is, but in another, it may be a miscalculation. On one end is the model everyone can use, but isn't perfect for many. On the other end is the model that only a few people want. Yes, those few people are getting exactly what they want. But is that highly specialized, almost "custom" market sufficient to sustain the hobby as a whole?
For example, my latest purchases have been from the used market. I'm still going to have to paint them since I couldn't find the scheme I needed, and I'll have to fabricate some missing parts, so my work will be about the same as if I had started with a generic Undec. When these were on the market new, I didn't need them. When I did need 'em, they were no longer available new. Likewise, what's on the market today, I don't need. Yet I can't afford to buy product I don't need on the off chance I might need it someday.
To me the best solution is for the manufacturers to have a somewhat steady stream of certain standards that will sell at a steady pace while they then bring one of a kinds for the specialty market. A steady core stream would level things out and keep buyers buying between the big "splash" models.