Several years ago my father-in-law gave me some HO trains that he purchased at a garage sale as a Christmas gift. While generous indeed, I wasn't quite sure what to make of them as most were from the 1970s-1980s and everything was train set quality, or so I thought. While cleaning up my stuff this weekend I pulled out the box again to inventory it and discovered that he had given me a Mantua 0-4-0 switch engine and tender. Putting a power pack to it (various places, like the frame, tender wheels on both trucks, etc.) eventually got it off and running. I don't have a layout or test track at the moment so I couldn't do more, but I can confirm that it works.
It appears to be all diecast metal including the tender body. It is crudely painted black with red trim. I don't know if it originally had full valve gear but as it is right now there are only connecting rods and drive rods to the crossheads. This is fine with me, as fussing with valve gear isn't something I want to do right now.
I was thinking of stripping it down, cleaning, and repainting it. No visions of grandeur here- it won't run like an Atlas or Kato engine for sure- but it might be nice to have around. Since it was a gift and I don't have anything invested in it I don't have much to lose.
I was going to take it apart- at least enough to remove any plastic parts like the tender axles and the engine drive parts- and then soak it in lacquer thinner to remove all the thick paint. I only have 70% isopropyl alcohol on hand and don't think it will work.
An internet search turned up this great website showing lots of old diagrams for Mantua kits: http://hoseeker.net/mantuainstructions.html
Does anyone have any advice that I should know about? Specifically, any help on wiring it back up would be great. It looks like the tender picks up from the "Fireman's"/left rail and the engine picks up from the "Engineer's"/right rail (when looking out of the cab forward). Is this correct?
Thanks.
Modeling the D&H in 1984: http://dandhcoloniemain.blogspot.com/
A die cast Mantua steamer is always worth some fixing up. Since it is metal, you don't have to worry about paint removers dissolving the plastic. Lacquer thinner will take off old lacquer. If it was painted with a water based paint, you may want to try Easy-Off oven cleaner, or ordinary hardware store paint remover. After you get the old paint off, you want to "pickle" the metal in a mild acid. I use supermarket vinegar. The acid etches the metal and gives it some "tooth" for the paint to grab on to. Before painting, wash well with soap and water, rinse thoroughly, dry thoroughly. Don't touch the metal with bare hands after cleaning, the oil in your finger prints will cause the paint to peel off. Spray paint with dark gray auto primer from a rattle can. Decals stick nicely to the auto primer.
Since it runs, all the mechanism needs is dis assembly and cleaning off old dry grease. Check the mesh of the worm to the worm gear, and shim the motor if necessary. If the mesh is too loose, the worm will skip teeth which is bad for it. If too tight, friction will slow the locomotive and cause the motor to overheat. I lube my gears with lithium grease from the auto parts st ore, and lube every thing else with 3 in 1 oil or gun oil or sewing machine oil. DON'T oil the commutator.
If you feel like it, you can kitbash it. There are beautiful brass castings of air compressors, whistles, bells, pop valves, generators, pilots, and other stuff. Yardbird Trains has a lot of the original Mantua parts, should you need anything. Replacing the open frame motor permanent magnet with neodyium super magnets will reduce current draw and inprove pulling power. You can glaze the cab windows, install a crew, add working headlamps, and add a working coupler in the pilot.
Have fun.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
David,
Thank you for your input on prep and painting. The shell and other metal parts are already soaking in thinner and after one brushing with an old toothbrush cleaned up nicely. By tomorrow they should be clean. I washed the drivers, rods, and large gear with soap and water because I saw no need (and had no desire) to remove the crankpins and take off the rods. When I reinstall the wheels/drivers I will make sure that they are properly arranged to prevent binding.
As for the tender trucks, I am at a loss. My model came with three axle assemblies so I know I need to purchase another wheelset. However, I cannot seem to get the wheels in and out of the trucks without fear of breaking them. Furthermore, the bottom edges of the cast axleboxes have chips or grooves in them, perhaps to aid in getting the wheels in? I don't know but wheels seem in there good. Except somehow another fell out, and I cannot get it back in! Very frustrating, and somewhat perplexing.
Also, for the motor itself, how do I clean it? Wrinse it in mineral spirits like old Lionel/AF motors? Just use thinner and a Q-tip? Rubbing alcohol?
Benjamin Maggi Also, for the motor itself, how do I clean it? Wrinse it in mineral spirits like old Lionel/AF motors? Just use thinner and a Q-tip? Rubbing alcohol?
Ben, that little engine can be made into a very sweet-running and good looking little gem. Here's a picture of mine (Ca. 1970). If yours has a metal cab and tender shell, it's from maybe 10-15 years earlier. One of those was my first steam loco, in 1955. Definitely worth fixing up. Note: If the cab is plastic, be sure to remove it before trying to strip the paint.
For the motor, unless it's really full of crud (I mean literally packed with dirt), you should not need to disassemble it. And be warned: if you remove the armature from between the pole pieces, it will lose magnetic field strength in the magnet, which will mean lost power and excessive current draw.
Just clean the commutator with a swab of alcohol, and give a swipe to the brush surfaces. Lightly oil the armature shaft bearings with a needle-point oiler. Clean off the worm gear. Test the motor by applying current to the brush springs. If it runs smoothly, put it aside.
Test the wheels to see if they have worn bearings by gently wiggling them. If they are at all loose - if there is any fore-and-aft play in them, you can fix it by one of two methods. The easiest (and probably fastest) is to slip a piece of .003" brass shim into the axle bearings (remove the two screws holding the cover plate over the drivers) and slip the shim between the axle and the bearing. The axle should spin smoothly and freely. Note that if you shim, you must shim both drivers by exactly the same amount and in the same direction, to avoid binds in the rods. The other method is to get new bearings - See Yardbird Trains for these and other parts.
Lightly oil the bearings, and the rods., and reassemble. If you decide to, Yardbird also has valve gear (as a kit) for the Shifter (which is the company name for this loco.)
Here's a picture of my current one - it's one of the sweetest running engines I have. It has, as you can see, full valve gear, and also the original motor. There's a new generator, whistle, and bell, plus some coal in the tender, but beyond that, it's plain stock.
---
Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
===================================
"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
This is what it looked like when I received it:
The pilot is clearly broken on one side but I am just going to leave it as is: This is after the first session with a container of lacquer thinner, a toothbrush, and a toothpick: How I track the pieces I removed from the engine. Sure, there aren't that many, but I didn't know that until after I had taken it apart. And wouldn't you know, nearly every screw was a little different! And now, several scrubbings later and rinsed proper.
The pilot is clearly broken on one side but I am just going to leave it as is:
This is after the first session with a container of lacquer thinner, a toothbrush, and a toothpick: How I track the pieces I removed from the engine. Sure, there aren't that many, but I didn't know that until after I had taken it apart. And wouldn't you know, nearly every screw was a little different! And now, several scrubbings later and rinsed proper.
This is after the first session with a container of lacquer thinner, a toothbrush, and a toothpick:
How I track the pieces I removed from the engine. Sure, there aren't that many, but I didn't know that until after I had taken it apart. And wouldn't you know, nearly every screw was a little different! And now, several scrubbings later and rinsed proper.
How I track the pieces I removed from the engine. Sure, there aren't that many, but I didn't know that until after I had taken it apart. And wouldn't you know, nearly every screw was a little different!
And now, several scrubbings later and rinsed proper.
Mantua itself made the after-market valve gear set for this and their other die cast switchers, 0-6-0, 0-6-0T, 0-4-0, 0-4-0T. Yes the tender trucks were involved in electrical pickup and it was fairly easy to see the insulation on each wheel set. It was also easy to turn a wheel around and cause shorts. At one time the Mantua engines were highly regarded for their motors.
Interestingly, in the 1960s Mantua/Tyco's ads in Model Railroader focused on modifications that guys made to the engines, some of them considerable They recognized that these were generic models, and something of a "blank canvas." My Mantua metal steam switchers pulled incredible loads and gave good service for decades.
Breaking the pilot was a common problem, especially for us youngsters (at the time!). One common cause was the need to mill out the pilot area if you wanted to substitute KD couplers. There are after market pilots out there and I would not be reluctant to cut off the broken one and epoxy on a replacement. Selley part 350 from Bowser is an almost perfect replacement
http://bowser-trains.com/hoother/selley/Selley%20Drawings%20HO.pdf
Dave Nelson
That's a nice little engine, Ben! To remove or replace a wheelset in a tender truck, you will have to bend the truck bolster in the middle enough to bring the sideframes out and up. This is a very tricky procedure, since you will have to straighten the bolster out again after you've replaced the wheelset. That's how the wheel sets came out in the first place. I've never done it, myself; I'm chicken.
The wheelsets, as you've no doubt noticed, have one brass wheel and one plastic wheel. The brass wheels must of course be on the same side of the truck, and both trucks must be mounted so the brass wheels are on the fireman's side of the locomotive. As for a source, an old junk engine or even just a tender can sometimes be picked up at train shows...
Yardbird Trains also has frames for the Shifter. You could get a new one to replace the original with the broken step. As for mounting a coupler, the locomotive is short enough that you don't need a full draft gear box for the pil;ot. I used the original screw hole and screw (intended for a hook-and-loop coupler, and mounted a #4 Kadee in the slot.
Good luck, and keep us posted!
When I pickle the parts in vinegar- ordinary white vinegar is what I plan to purchase at the store this morning- how long should I "pickle them"? An hour... all day?
Pickling takes at least an hour or two, overnight won't hurt anything. The metal often changes color, going from grey to white. When that happens it's pickled enough. This color change happens on pure lead, it may not happen on what ever alloy they used casting your locomotive.
I would not take the motor apart unless I was desperate. Just make sure the two armature bearings have enough oil. If the commutator is dirty, it can be cleaned with Googone on a Q-tip. Oil is bad for commutators, it increases arcing at the brushes which chews them up. Be careful with the armature windings. The wire is insulated with just a coat of varnish, which was never very strong, and after some years, gets weak and brittle. The varnish doesn't like solvents or water.
You can get nice cast brass pilots with foot boards from Walthers and other places. Filing off the damaged pilot and putting a brass casting in place with epoxy is a simple straightforward operation.
Have you been to this site?
http://yardbirdtrains.com/index.htm
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
dstarr Spray paint with dark gray auto primer from a rattle can. Decals stick nicely to the auto primer.
I etched it in vinegar and rinsed it well, and haven't touched it sense. I plan to give it some paint this weekend. One person recommended automobile primer but I was wondering if something from the hobby shop would be suitable. I don't own an airbrush, but I am sure that rattle cans of black paint would work. What type of primer do I used under the paint?
Benjamin Maggi dstarr Spray paint with dark gray auto primer from a rattle can. Decals stick nicely to the auto primer. I etched it in vinegar and rinsed it well, and haven't touched it sense. I plan to give it some paint this weekend. One person recommended automobile primer but I was wondering if something from the hobby shop would be suitable. I don't own an airbrush, but I am sure that rattle cans of black paint would work. What type of primer do I used under the paint?
The challenge in painting metal is getting the paint to stick. Metal is smooth and slippery and compared to wood, gives little for the paint to grab. You have pickled it, and cleaned it, now you want the first coat, the primer, to be the best stick-to-metal paint you can buy. And that is Rustoleum or Krylon auto primer rattle cans. This stuff is sold to real car mechanics, who expect it to stick to somewhat greasy car parts. It covers anything, and dries dead flat. It comes in three colors, dark gray, light gray and red. The dark gray is perfect for steam locomotives. When viewed under indoor lighting, it looks black enough, but you can still see details. The prototype steamers, even fresh off the wash rack, were soon covered with a layer of coal soot which shows up gray and flat, not the gloss of the engine black model paints.
I'd give it a coat of auto primer, wait a day for it to dry, and give it a second coat if it seems to need it. It probably won't. Keep the spray can moving and hold it back enough that the paint just goes on wet. Avoid sags and runs.
A trick I use is to heat up the rattle cans in hot water from the tap. (N0T MORE THAN 140 F) This raises the pressure and you get a finer coat. Several light coats are better than one heavy coat. I let it dry at least a couple of days. When you can't smell the paint any longer it is dry enough to decal.
Heating up the rattle can a little bit is indeed a good idea as it raises the pressure (conversely this is also why trying to spray a rattle can in cool or cold weather can often be disappointing). And it isn't just rattle cans - heating up a spray can of shaving cream or deodorant can also revive a seemingly explired can for one more use. Of course you do not want to overdo it. Even a seemingly empty can is something of a bomb under the wrong circumstances.
Distant and ancient memory is of a brand of shave cream that was intended to be put under a hot faucet before use so that you could have a "hot shave."
What I usually do is heat up an old wash cloth in hot water and wrap that around the spray paint can. I realize the chance of an explosion is very small but it seems to me that that technique minimizes and perhaps eliminates any issue whatever of overheating the can, and it gives you the benefits of increased pressure.
I don't have a proper spray booth so I usually do my spray painting outside, and then bring the piece in and let it "cure" in my bathroom. It has an exhaust fan as well as a heat fan, and with both on the bathroom gets toasty warm and the fumes go away. Then, I cut the exhaust to minimize dust movement and let the piece sit in the warm environment for several hours.
I will run the can of paint under warm water to see if it will help. I hope to get the paint tonight, but probably won't get to paint the engine until Saturday. No need to rush it.
Thank you for your advice.
At one time, Mantua made a "kit" available to re-motor their engines with Sagami can motors. Some other companies have done similar retrofit kits. It's easy and works well.
I don't know now that Model Power bought the Mantua/Tyco line, but Mantua used to have a huge catalog of parts that were available. If available the broken pilot could be replaced for maybe $4-5.
NOt so happy with rattle cans- i rebuild lots of old mantuas and Bowsers- have about 30 plus of them- my IWATA airbrush with variable pressure in line contro valve gives and incredibly fine mist /fog - i have switched entirely away form rattle cans- after owning a large number - I will probably spray them into an old Polyscale paint jar and then use them n my airbrush- . The issue is NOT the paint primer but the droplet size. Have you had any experience comparing the two methods? Dave at Yardbird uses rattle can sbut I am no longer ocnvinced if you really like fine paint jobs. Otherwise I do use the vinegqar pickle after alcohol rinse- not sure you need more than an hour??
Typically I take older Mantuas and strip them woth 95% Alcohol (Safeway grocery stored brand is 95%) which removers old paint and oils quite well! Then after a how water rinse and an overnight dry, then they can be painted. If they have to be handles after the alcohol dip, it is always with latex gloves. Skin oil will "poison" the metal until it is painted & sealed. I usually use Floquil from an airbrush, but a rattle can can be used.
Yardbirds is a good source for parts, they also sponsor a Yahoo group that is worth getting into.
Just take your time and soon you can an old Mantua into soething like this,
or this,
Yes, they are both old Mantua kits
Karl
NCE über alles!
THESE folkshttp://www.alliancelocomotiveproducts.com//photos.htm
make a line of motor replacements for Mantua engines, including the 0-4-0.
They use a can motor with an oversized worm that not only gives a slower speed, but is large enough to funciton as a flywheel. I've never used one, but they look like a decent motor.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
The standard Mantua cab has always bugged me. It just doesn't look quite like any cab I can remember. This is particularly the case with the Pacific, which is based on B&O's beautiful P-7c and P-7e rebuilt President 4-6-2's. IMHO the most beautiful Pacifics on this continent. But there is a solution. AHM produced a B&O 2-10-2 many years ago, and it had a very acceptable B&O cab. When they added the USRA Heavy 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 to their line some time later, they did not produce a new USRA cab for them. Instead, they used that same B&O cab. I have a Mantua 4-6-2 that I had intended to rebuild; but the lack of a correct cab has always stalled that project. Recently, I picked up an AHM Pacific boiler, with cab, and I intend to use that cab in the rebuild. The USRA Mikado or the B&O S-1 2-10-2 would have provided an equally acceptable cab. Now I just have to figure out what to do about a tender.
The old Mantua die cast steamers were the best budget locos of their day. I built my first one, a Big Six, when I was 12 in the early 60's. I remeber my mother's outrage when I baked the paint in her oven! The earliest ones had die cast metal cabs and tenders. In later years those parts were plastic. I still have a whiskey box full of complete locos and lots of spare parts. I would use ACC to attach any brass detail.
Either will work, they both bond to metal, yielding a joint plenty strong enough to hold cast detail parts to a diecast boiler. I prefer ACC (superglue) 'cause it's thinner and capillary action will draw it into a joint. A tiny drop of ACC placed in a drilled hole will run down inside the hole and give a good bond, no surface leftovers. Epoxy is thicker and won't run down holes or suck in by capillary action. Unless you have rock steady hands, you will wind up with blobs of epoxy on the "show" surfaces of the model that will need to be scraped or filed off for good appearance.
HELP! I was changing my brushes on my Mantua Pacific engine and I lost one of the brush springs. I have swept the floor and looked every where for that little spring. Can someone direct me to a place I can purchase a spring? I hate to spend upwards of $16.00 for a new(used) motor for my Mantua engine. Yardbird trains is out of business and I have searched the internet for Mantua parts. Bowzer used to carry some older Mantua parts but they no longer sell them.
W Rusty Lane in eastern Tennessee
HO and Lionel 027
W Rusty,
Get in touch with MRC.....They took over Model Power/Mantua and may be able to get what You need....It's worth a try anyway. Click on the link and scroll down page to the black area for contact info:
http://www.modelrectifier.com/brands-mantua-s/145.htm
Good Luck!
Frank