What Really Keeps People From This Hobby?

[BRAKIE]

I agree if MRR became popular you would see prices sky rocket.You see every manufacturer would want to get in on the quick buck of a fad before it passes.[}:)]
Now the slot car craze of the 60s lasted about 3-4 years..However,Slot car racing is still with us,but not the fad racing of the 60s.Todays slot car racers follow NASCAR rules and their cars look like miniature NASCARs right down to the painted driver in his racing uniform..These guys race for points just like real drivers and should they win the Championship they get a rather large trophy..Needless to say you see very few young racers as they can not afford to be competitive in order to compete in the points race..I have a 2nd and 5th place trophy.I hardly race any more.Like real racing you almost need a sponsor.

[tstage]

Good thing they won't be racing trains any time soon. But don't be surpised if it does happen.....

[Anonymous]

Maybe we can have Train Pulls, just like Tractor pulls, see who's engine can haul the most weight across a stretch of track [:P]

[Anonymous]

My barriors were space, geeks, relativeness, availability, and expense.
Point to point layouts addressed space, geeks are enthusiast who've forgotten to speak English or recognize its time to change the topic, finding my town is served by branch-line made it relative, Internet and catalogs addresses the availability for us folks in the stickers and expense is an excuse to not get started. The only cheap hobby is streaking.
What got me back in was the wife got a Harry Potter train set and wanted it set up, the 'How does it work or when did it change' question for mechanics, engineering, scheduling, history, and the discovery that even big railroads have simple loops (Spokane has at least two).
I'mstill on the fence about joining a club and the barriors are time, expense, geeks, relativeness.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tigerious

Maybe we can have Train Pulls, just like Tractor pulls, see who's engine can haul the most weight across a stretch of track [:P]

This has been an NMRA event for a long time, although there wasn't a contest at the Seattle Convention last month due to the test equipment being worked on. As I understand it, engines are weighed and pull as much as they can, and winners are decided by the one that lifts the most weight relative to its own weight.

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

I would have to say money and instant gratification are key players in the demise of model railroading. I started a new layout after 10 years away from the hobby. People at work are always asking "Is it done yet?" No its not instant.
So I think that has a lot to do with it.

[Roadtrp]

Model Railroading is my ADULT hobby.

My other hobbies are collecting Star Wars toys and Disney Goofys (plu***oys, ceramic figurines, sculptures... if it is Goofy I want it!

[(-D][(-D]

Ah yes, I'm 52 years old... why do you ask?? [:D]

[Bikerdad]

Socialization, or, more accurately, the lack of it. Model Railroading is too often represented in popular culture as a loner's actvity, and too often, it is.

This is FUN stuff, and the best FUN is with other people. One thing about those "geeks" at the Trek conventions, anime and sci-fi conventions, SCA events, and gaming conventions is that they're engaged in social activities. They are also frequently creative folks looking for outlets. The skills that SCA (Society for Creative Anachronisms, i.e., "The Middle Ages the way the SHOULD have been) members develop in pursuit of their hobby can be mindboggling. These guys will make their own ARMOR, fer crying out loud, brew beer, learn calligraphy, etc. Yes, they can be a little weird as well, but that's what a hobby is all about.

The model railroad press has to play up the social aspects, AND that means a lot more than just "operating sessions." Clubs have to be accessible. I KNOW that Des Moines has an N-Trak group, but you wouldn't know it from the flyers posted in the biggest shop in town.

While railroading is no longer on the cutting edge technologically, it is also still far more accessible than space travel and air travel. Railroads themselves bear some of the blame, having thrown in the public relations towel. The extent of the railroads "public relations"? Safety campaigns. None of the romance of distant locales, trips through the dark, the incredible power it takes to move a coal drag, the technology coordinating it, etc. Just "safety." blech...

Yes, there's a certain geek/eccentric aspect to our hobby, BUT, with the exception of athletics, EVERY hobby has that. (Athletics have their own wierdnesses, known as the "fan" and the "jock") Motorheads (car geeks), theatre geeks, collectors of this, that or the other thing, etc, from the "mainstream" perspective, hobbies ARE GEEK ACTIVITIES. They are non-productive, attract people who are passionate about the subject, and develop their own subculture, i.e., become enclaves in the vast metroplis of Geekdom.

Elitism and insularity is always a problem faced in every hobby. In MRR, the elitism is best stereotyped by the legendary "rivet counters", but they aren't the only form. I have to take many of y'all to task for dismissing and demeaning the "instant gratification" of the buyer of a RTR item. Knowing that I worked 5 or 10 hours to earn the money to acquire that locomotive, AFTER paying the mortgage, putting food on the table, etc, and then having my chosen method of stocking my layout attacked as insincere, inadequate, or otherwise not real, THAT sort of attitude can also turn people off.

Model Railroading CAN be difficult. Misconceptions about how difficult it is are a big factor in keeping people out. Somewhere between Thomas the Tank Engine and casting your own freight cars is a place where people will feel much more comfortable stepping into the hobby. Identify that place, give it more play, put a RUNNING TRAIN under a person's control, and you've done the best you can. Model railroading CAN be taken one step at a time, but too often the simple steps are given short shrift in the press. Play up that one can take it at any level from Thomas all the way to museum quality layouts with monster operating sessions, and that ALL THE LEVELS ARE EQUALLY VALID. Yes, simply PLAYING WITH TRAINS, rather than "simulating prototypical operations" is just as valid.

Cost is no more of a factor for MRR than it is for any other recreational pursuit. Look at the amount of money spent on golf, tennis, Beanie Babies, clubbing, etc. WE complain about the cost, because, frankly, we want more stuff than we can afford. Well, golfer's are always complaining about the cost, runners complain about how expensive shoes are (serious runners go through 4-12 pairs a year), music fans gripe about ticket prices and download illegally from the 'Net because of the cost, etc.

Well, these are my ruminations on the subject, worth every penny y'all have paid.

One final thing: I realize that everybody else liking what I like can be mighty validating emotionally, but why does almost every hobby obsess over this question?

[slotracer]

Good question, why does this hobby obsess over this question ?

Slot car guys and model car builders carry on the same debates too. I can emphathise with comments made somewhere here about how big do you wnat to grow the hobby and the down size that comes with mass public fads. It is right on how slot cars were ruined in the late sixties by the mass fad aftermath. There were more raceways and manufacturers than could be sustained during "normal" particiaption periods and when activity slacked, the failures of tracks and manufacturers was horrendous. The inevitable part was the lust for competition and frequently big egos that escalated development of hot parts, the prices for the latest hot speed part and the fact much of the latest was obselete by the time it made manufacturers shelves in mass.

I'm happier with the smaller slotcar scene of today, I think we have a much greater variety of cars and stuff, far better quality and so many levels and types of racing there is something for everyone. If it becomes mega popular again, I'm afraid what it will do to the hobby.

Guys like me (mid forties) may likely come back to trains as their kids leave the nest, but I think it will be an uphill struggle to keep sufficient numbers of young people coming into the hobby and staying.

Back up until the sixties, most every kid you asked replied that he wanted to grow up to be a train engineer. Not only do you not hear that any more, I dout trains are even on their radar screen. Trains are another anonymous piece of commerce like trucks, grain elevators or refineries to kids, nothing to take an interest in .

[on30francisco]

I believe there are many more people in this hobby than the polls show. A lot of people into model railroading do not subscribe to Model Railroader or belong to the NMRA. I used to subscribe to Model Railroader ten years ago but now occasionally buy it at the newsstand depending on the issue's contents. I used to belong to the NMRA years ago but found other model railroading organizations that better serve my needs. Although the NMRA has done a lot to help model railroaders, I am no longer interested in it. Today there are a lot more magazines and organizations that cater to model railroaders with special interests.(eg. narrow gauge, branchlines, interurbans, mainlines, traction, minority scales) A lot of modelers (myself included) subscribe to some of those magazines. (eg. Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette, Light Iron Digest, S Gaugian, O Scale Modeling, Mainline Modeler, etc.) Our heads are not counted in the polls. There are also a lot of resources on the internet for us people with special interests. We can find products, modeling ideas and techniques that are very seldom covered in the general interest modeling magazines. In conclusion, I believe the hobby of model railroading is not dying ; it is just much more diversified than it was years ago.

[Anonymous]

I would agree with cost and video games...I would add that I think there is a bit of snobbery to this hobby, especially geared towards novice modelers. I also think that Americans have less time to spend at home now more than ever, unless they are retired. Everyone seems to be working longer hours for the same pay or less, which also feeds into the cost issues, since costs are continually going up.

I have always tried to help fellow modelers and additionally tried to learn something from other modelers when I can...I spend as much time as possible during the fall and winter months, but it is limited.

[randybc2003]

Those of us who rember the '60's can rember the receeding of MRing to Slot cars. Al Kalmbach fought the trend and his staff to keep MR as it was - for MR fans. Model Railroader survived. Still going pretty good too, I think.

Re Cost: Not an invalid consideration, but I consider the cost of a passenger coach, RTR today, and as late '60's, early '70's. Adjusted for inflation, about the same, or a little less I think. We have gone so much to RTR that Scratchbuilders, Kitbuilers, and "superdetailers" don't get the same exposure as in the past.

mstein - you mention Spokane. If you are local, stop by Sunset Junction on E. Sprrague, and talk to the gang about the clubs in the area. Some are VERY informal.

tstage - You obviously never heard of the 20th Century Limited VS the Broadway Limited. New York Central vx. Pennsy. They set out: New York City to Chicago, on schedules Minute by minute if not mile by mile. There was a stretch known as "the Racetrack" where they shared alignment, but not track. One of Howard Fogg's paintings features it.

[3railguy]

I believe the hobby is bigger than it was 30 years ago. The selection of equipment is larger. The Walthers catalog and Model Railroader is thicker. There are more Model Train magazines on the market now too. I don't know about other areas but the swap meets in our area have a pretty good turn out.

[simon1966]

Cracking subject! I can't beleive that there have been 5 pages of posts since I last read this!!

Kids love trains. Many kids "play" with trains and even graduate to electric train sets. Maybe, some of them even go on to start small layouts in their early teens. Those that do, either have parents that model or at the least parents that are supportive. Let's be honest here, parents have to be very supportive. Giving your kid space to build a 4 x 8 is not insignificant. Helping the kid get supplies either by driving them to a LHS or providing the means of payment for Internet or mail order. It's not as if a boy can save his pocket money and trot down to the local dime store to buy a freight car each month. So a lot of potential modellers fall away due to the impracticalities of the hobby.

Even if the individual is an avid modeller through high school, what are the chances of the hobby continuing in college and on into the first small apartment? Model RR is somewhat of a space hogging impractical hobby at any age, let alone early adulthood.

Sooner or later, most of us that drifted away in the late teens get bitten by the bug again. Somewhere between our mid 30's and 60's space is not such an issue. When the wallet is deeper. When we seek a challlenging activity with substance. Model RR comes back to us as a gift.

I think model railroaders are the human equivalent of the secada (sp?) Whole generations of model RR's are dormant in the population. They don't yet even know their own destiny. One day they awake, they go to a GATS or see a relative or friends layout and they blossom into adult modellers. We get to witness this with a wave of new listers introducing themselves with "Hi, I'm 42 and just getting back into the hobby"

An adult modeller has a lifespan exceeding 20 years. This is the time of modelling fertility. Aside from creating a model railroad legacy in the physical sence, this is the time when the modelling seeds must be sown into the general population. Your own kids, your kids friends, nephews, nieces your own friends. It is a simple matter of statistics. The more dormant model RR's that enter the population, the more will hatch and blossom into adulthood.

[Anonymous]

Hmm I guess I am that way I wanted a layout so bad as a teen but just dindt have the money so I kind of fell away from the hobby I kept all my trains n boxes and they moved from place to place. Now I am married two kids and have one car in the garage. I sold off my other large hobby and had a substantial amount to get benchwork track and power so I can at least run trains and now I do little here and there.
I have decided I will not renew my MR subscription though my interests are more focused so I will subscribe to something that meets more my needs.

[Anonymous]

I thought I post my 2 cents as maybe other people would like to know what 25-year old newcomer to RR thinks :)

Most of the things here I agree with. The saddest things for me are negative attitude by some people in hobby. Notice the word "some". I've met a lot of people on traid shows that were very open. And I met those geeks that clearly have some complex about what they do. Fortunately I've met more open and friendly people that not.

On other thing I wanted to mention are LHS. If any LHS owner reads this - take note.

I have been in model RR for less than a year and I have already stopped visiting them and buying anything from them. I order all my stuff online. Not because I am cheap (I spend about $600 every month on my hobby) but because LHS owners are greedy and above all dumb. I walk into there and for 4 month observed there stock. And during these 4 month none of the high-end engine was sold. NONE ! They are usually priced above MSTP ! Kato SD-70MAC engine costs $200. Well the same one online I can buy for 79.99.
Now maybe online retailer only made $10 profit on each of them but the guy at LHS made ZERO. He hasn't sold none. As I said I spend quite some money every month and I feel sorry for LHS that they don't get any of it.

We live in a free market society so economy will put everything in place. That is why RR model stores are closing in my area, complaining the hobby is dying. No it isn't ! It is just that more and more people buy online. When I buy online I don't think to myself "WOW, that Kato costs only 80 bucks instead of 200" I think along the lines of "WOW, for 240 bucks I can buy 3 engines instead on one at LHS". And I do buy 3 engines.

It is sad that many LHS owners are shooting themselves in the foot and don't realize it.

[Jetrock]

Thing is, hobby shops tend to move a lot of things that people DON'T buy online--mundane stuff like paint, styrene, boxed kits, stripwood, etcetera.

Often the stuff on display is on consignment--the seller often sets the price, not the hobby shop. A lot depends on one's hobby shop--of the three shops I visit regularly, one is generally priced at Walther's catalog price or MSRP, one is routinely 10% less than the Walthers catalog, and another sells older stuff for discounts that border on the amazing.

Which may just speak for the goodwill of my particular local hobbyshop. But, in general, while online shopping can save money in some areas, it won't replace the brick & mortar shop entirely--and SOME retailers are smart enough to make changes with the times. Besides, some folks just plain prefer to be able to see and touch the things they're going to buy...

[Anonymous]

MABruce, You have answered most of your own questions in the first sentence of your post. Are you looking for a cure-all and a pat on the back??

One of the biggest obstacles to this hobby is cost.

I would like to meet the twelve-year-old that could afford a Rivorossi 2-6-6-2, let alone a Bachman Three-Truck-Shay, should I mention BWL? And Brass, Forget it.

Think about what you ask and think about who can afford what is being advertised to the public.

Looks to me like there could be a LifeLike out there, or somthing similar to a LL for the younger gentry to get involved with, (ie, BB).

Ya have to remeber that this hobby has a median age of 47. In other words people older than 47 have the where-with-all to afford what they want and those under 47 want the the where=with=all, to afford what they want.LOL.

At times, loaded questions like the one you pose on this forum, do indeed stir conversatoin. Is it really worth trying to discern who has and who has not? Don't know.

Just thought I would put my 2 cents worth in the pot

[Jetrock]

There is a Life-Like out there--it's called Life-Like!

http://www.lifelikeproducts.com/

What twelve-year-old (or forty-seven-year-old, for that matter) *NEEDS* a Rivarossi articulated, or brass engines, to engage in the hobby of model railroading? While they're nice to have, they're certainly not essential. And while a Life-Like train set may be a bit of a stretch for a 12 year old's allowance, they certainly aren't that expensive a gift for a 12 year old's parents--cheaper than a videogame console, or a dirt bike, or other accessible birthday/holiday gifts one would buy a 12 year old.

Speaking from personal experience, when I was 12, 23 years ago, I was a model railroader, so i know for a fact that it can be done. My dad was also interested in model railroading, and he bought the engines and much of the rolling stock, and the track. He did some scenery but was mostly interested in running trains, and left detailing work, structures and scenic details to me. While not every aspiring 12 year old model railroader has a dad who shares his interests, many are at least going to be able to talk their parents into getting them a train set and a sheet of plywood to start on.

Oh, in case you're wondering, my family was not well-off. The motive power we had consisted of three Athearn locomotives (a Geep, an F-unit, and a "Hustler" four-wheel switcher) and a Life-Like 0-4-0. Rolling stock was mostly Atlas, Athearn or other inexpensive plastic kit.

With that meager allowance, I bought paint, inexpensive kits, and scratchbuilding materials from the hobby shop. I detailed and painted the rolling stock, built the kits (and made them look pretty good, I might add) and for things I couldn't afford or find in kit form, I built structures from cardboard, brick sheeting and styrene.

Any 12 year old with a parent willing to buy 'em a train set could do the same. While it's not a super-duper designer giant model railroad, it's a start--and enough to teach the basic skills, work ethic and imagination needed for that 12 year old to work his way up to a basement empire well before he's 47!

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by norboy

MABruce, You have answered most of your own questions in the first sentence of your post. Are you looking for a cure-all and a pat on the back??

I guess I must be a little slow John (norboy), but I went back and re-read the first sentence of my first post and still don’t understand the point you are trying to make here. My first sentence stated a generally accepted view. The post then went on to ask a question, stated my thoughts, and wondered what everyone else thought.

My final sentence concluded that there are many barriers (i.e. – not a simple solution) but nothing that could be overcome if we put the effort into it.

So how did I answer my question (What really keeps people from this hobby?) in the first sentence of my first post (assuming this is the post you are referring to)? I’m also wondering how you thought I was looking for a cure all? Finally, I will say that I’m hardly looking for a pat on the back! How you got to that conclusion is beyond me, but you are entitled to your opinions.

So far, 100% of the replies to this post have been very thoughtful and interesting. I am extremely pleased (and quite shocked) that it has gone on for so long without someone getting surly. I guess it was enviable that had to end at some point. . [V] Oh well, we had an outstanding run while it lasted. [^]

[Big_Boy_4005]

I can't argue that this hasn't been an interesting topic, even if it has a somewhat negative connotation for this audience. It seems to take just the right mix of factors to create a model railroader. It's just like the difference between

coal and diamonds!!!

[swg]

[Anonymous]

First of all I salute all Grandpas and Grandmas that spend time and share the past with the young ones.

I dont buy the money or space argument. 90% of the hobbies out there take only 500-1000 bucks to really get into and MRR is one of them.

Clubs that set up large modular layouts are at once doing a big service and a little disservice to the hobby. While large layouts are grand and impressive and spark interest in MRR and draw the crowd in, the initial exposure to a large layout leads the newbie into believing that this is "the only way". then the space and cost arguments come into play, then they lose interest because its just too big an endeavour never knowing or seeing what a small layout can do. Much more emphasis on small layouts (2x4 nscale for example) and dioramas is needed to really spark interest to bring new people to MRR esp the young ones. They are more "charming" to young people. I strongly beleive that very well detailed small layouts and dioramas are much better at firing up the "I want to do this too" urge than large layouts.

Look at it from this perspective:These guys set up there modules in a perimeter like a castle or defensive position. They run the trains standing inside the defensive perimeter. Very seldom do I see them invite a spectator or kid to run the trains. This totally reinforces the introverted perception of this hobby. Oh yea, most of the MRRs are freindly and answer questions etc. but this is a subliminal yet significant impression to the perspective MRR. I say get some remotes, get outside the defensive position, stand next to the spectators, and let'em do some switching and point to point ops. Much less intimidating to them. Much more fun for everybody. That way they are forced to look at the train going by the scenery, focus on the operational task, and they have an experience, not just gawking at the whole layout, eyes darting around not knowing what really to look at. You have to give them an experience, not just display. Think of it as First day engineer training.

Elsewhere here is mentioned that maybe an informal club is better than a formal one. Totally disagree with that notion. My experience has shown me that an informal club is much LESS inviting to a newcomer than a formal one. Sloppyness and informality lends the perception of clubbyness, insider, oldtimer etc. It is breaking into a personal circle of freinds and youre the stranger, the newbie. You really have to be a freind of on of the "members" before you join. Waste of time. Formal clubs with charters, schedules, formal rules, patches, gavel banging and so one gives the newbie a sense of "I can belong - if I pay my due, participate, and follow the rules". When they come back for their second meeting BAM! they have a much stronger feeling of being a member. Of course, strong friendship along with the kinship of the hobby we all feel comes right after that.

Formality. Rules. Charters. Organization. THIS IS HOW TO RUN A RAILROAD. And you must agree that operating your layout like a prototype has much more satisfaction than just racing trains around the track. Much bigger sense of accomplishment is created by mere participation in a formal club. Given our current society and basic human nature, a sense of order and displine and belonging would be almost a breath of fresh air to the newbie in contrast to the chaos of everyday life, dont you think? It was for me.

On another note:

I had to laugh at several "think we're bad, just look at the trekkies!" posts in this thread. I know that no insult was intended so dont get defensive :) I dont really go for the costumes or conventions, but yes I know every original series episode by heart argue warp drive thoery etc. The ONLY significant difference I see between MRRs and the Trek kers is Trekkers are more extroverted than MRRs. Thats fine with me as I like the "calmer" crowds anyway. They spend as much time and have as much passion for their hobby as do we. Same percentage of detail freaks too. About the same number of klingons as well LOL. There are many aspects of "Trekdom" than just the costumes!

-LS

[jfugate]

Having entered the hobby in the 1960s and watching it mushroom over the years, I think as the baby-boomer generation has come of age and matured (and now with more income) the hobby has been going through an era of prosperity.

But the numbers tell us that, sadly, that will probably all change, and there won't be much we can do about it.

Over the next 20-30 years as the baby boomers generation (1946 - 1964) ages and begins dying, I expect the hobby to start a massive decline. In fact, you are already starting to see that, and I expect the downward trend to continue.

The baby boomers were the last generation to see trains as a major American icon in every small town with passenger trains still somewhat common. Now days, its how fast can the container through train blast through town at night while every ones asleep? The more interesting parts of the hobby is rapidly becoming one that models history more than modern day.

Just look at the most popular era: steam to diesel transition. That's the one the baby boomers fondly remember. What fond memories is there for today's youth to model? The container train blasting through town at 70 MPH is going to wear thin fast.

I wish I could be more optimistic but I think we need to be prepared for a large decline in hobby numbers in the next few decades.

In short what keeps people from this hobby? Its partly the fact there's less people.

[Anonymous]

Bruce, without trying to be as antagonistic as my previous post sounded, Your first sentence said it all,

"I don’t have much doubt that our hobby has seen some overall growth in the past decade, but I also think that it’s suffered a significant decline from its historic highs many years ago."

If you think that there were that many more Modelers out there "many years ago" than there are now, well I don't know what to tell ya.

Growth in this hobby has grown exponentially since the mid to late eighties.

I would offer that you are a subscriber of the WGH program and you have been duped into thinking that the hobby is falling by the way. Truth is, is that the hobby has never seen more people involved than at the present time. I offer up the number of advertisers in MR or any other Train Hobby magazine.

I love this hobby and will continue to 'hype' the fun and benefits from engaging in this hobby as best I can. I will no longer be a supporter of the "Sky is falling attitude" and that this hobby is faltering.

Not a good reply, but the best I can give ya.

Cost is still the biggest factor.

Take Care,

[Anonymous]

Joe, I just read your post. You are indeed an enlightened man. I heartly concur.

[CNJ831]

John (norboy), likewise not trying to be antagonistic but how about some verifiable facts or figures to back up that claim of expotential growth in the hobby since the mid to late eighties? I keep hearing such "opinions" but absolutely no one can offer _anything_ that actually demonstrates it. It's always, "I believe; members of my club said; somebody at the LHS heard; there was a big train show in my area so this means...." Most unfortunately, info abounds implying just the opposite to be true.

By example, hobby magazines across the board have suffered declining sales. Those with the largest circulations have been hurt the most (MR down by 45,000 and RMC by 30,000). The niche magazines don't begin to make up for this loss. Contrary to what you say, the advertising in the magazines today is way off from what it was ten years ago (perhaps in part due to the Net). Also consider that a WGH program would not be needed if the manufacturers weren't worried about the future of the hobby. Finally, it's unlikely you'd be seeing major manufacturers selling out to distributors if they were making huge profits from ever increasing sales.

Personally, I'd love to see _something_ verifiable and in black and white that clearly shows our hobby is strongly prospering. So, please, please, provide some facts showing this.

CNJ831

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by randybc2003

tstage - You obviously never heard of the 20th Century Limited VS the Broadway Limited. New York Central vx. Pennsy. They set out: New York City to Chicago, on schedules Minute by minute if not mile by mile. There was a stretch known as "the Racetrack" where they shared alignment, but not track. One of Howard Fogg's paintings features it.

randybc2003,

You obviously misunderstood my point! First of all, I am VERY aware of the competition that was between the 20th Century Limited and the Broadway Limited. Secondly, what I was implying was a battle of "model" locomotives going head to head to see which one was the fastest. THAT to me I would deem pointless, ridiculous and, most of all, juvenile.

Tom

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by norboy

Bruce, without trying to be as antagonistic as my previous post sounded, Your first sentence said it all,

"I don’t have much doubt that our hobby has seen some overall growth in the past decade, but I also think that it’s suffered a significant decline from its historic highs many years ago."

If you think that there were that many more Modelers out there "many years ago" than there are now, well I don't know what to tell ya.

So why didn’t you just come out and disagree with my first sentence to begin with?! You just had me confused on your first wandering post when you said something about answering own question and patting myself on the back.

In my first sentence, I was only stating a widely accepted fact (which was not even disputed until you chimed in). If you dispute it, fine, I have no problem with that.

QUOTE: Growth in this hobby has grown exponentially since the mid to late eighties.

Okay, now I’m going to have to ask you for numbers (data) to back that wild exaggeration up. Exponentially? Since the mid to late 80’s? If that were true, this hobby would be the hottest industry since computers and biotechnology.

QUOTE: I would offer that you are a subscriber of the WGH program and you have been duped into thinking that the hobby is falling by the way. Truth is, is that the hobby has never seen more people involved than at the present time. I offer up the number of advertisers in MR or any other Train Hobby magazine.

I’m not actually a subscriber of the WGH program (for other reasons that is another topic for another day). I’ll also wait for your figures to back your “exponential” growth claim before addressing how this hobby has “never seen more people involved than at the present time”, but the increase in the number of advertisers in MR you noticed is likely because this hobby has been growing over the last decade (as I said in my first sentence).

QUOTE: I will no longer be a supporter of the "Sky is falling attitude" and that this hobby is faltering.

QUOTE: (posted in your very next reply) Joe, I just read your post. You are indeed an enlightened man. I heartly concur.

Now just hang on there! You can’t have it both ways! You won’t support that “Sky is falling attitude”, but you concur with Joe’s post about the waning MRR population?

BTW: I agree with Joe. Not only will the MRR manufacturers have less people in the hobby to sell to in the future, but they will be competing with numerous estate sales of quality second hand equipment. Double jeopardy!

QUOTE: Not a good reply, but the best I can give ya.

Now that is the first thing I will agree with you on.

QUOTE: Cost is still the biggest factor.

That’s the second thing I agree with you on.

[Anonymous]

Hello all (as I now take my turn on the soap box). I am 32 and just now starting my first real layout with real Equiptment ( not the cheap starter set from Wal-mart) my opinion would be why this Hobby isnt enjoying the success of others is long and covers most of what has already been said so I will add a few more.

* No major media outlet saying how much fun it is. They dont view trains as interesting only as a annoyance on the road because they have to stop there busy lives and wait. Besides that maby if we had a Tiger Woods or Lebron James type that could be a high profile advocate for Model Railroading we might get somewhere.

* Hours of most train shops in my area anyway close at 5 pm well I dont know about most people but I dont get off till then.

* lack of imagination in the youth today. Model RR takes imagination something kids dont want to have to use its too easy to play mindless video games or talk on cell phones or any number of mind wasting activities. I feel its like books they wont read them they just say
"why read it wont they just make it into a movie".

*last but not least we are the torch bearers of our own hobby we need to introduce as many young persons and middle aged and others as we can. Share our passion for the hobby and who cares if we are teased or told we are crazy. the most wonderful minds are always borderline ie: Albert Einstien. We need to do more then the folks at "The worlds greatest Hobbie" they are a ember we must be the Flame. If htis hobby is failing It is our fault and I would be included in this so I tell anyone who asks why I have a hobby like this I tell them "Why not have a hobby that lets me feel like a kid and live out my dreams of operating a train, most ask me for more information none has ever said to my face I am crazy or insane.

[Anonymous]

polizi ,
I am trying to get youth in my area involved in this wonderful hobby.
I have noticed the lack of imagination in youth (and some adults) that you're talking about.
Some people can imagine what a kit is supposed to look like when finished, then assemble it.
Some can imagine how raw materials can be formed into a finished project and scratch-build it.
Some can imagine the sound a train makes as it is nearing a crossing.
Some can not.
They just haven't been taught that your only limited by your imagination.

Another thing I've noticed is laziness. I've heard every excuse in the book. It's to hard, I can't do it. What if I screw it up, I don't understand how to wire a layout.
We have to show the people that show an interest how easy and rewarding it is. Offer a helping hand.
I also find youth do not like to read. So for them magazines and how-to articles are useless. Hands on experience may help overcome this obstacle.

Attention span is another. I had this problem in my younger days. I learned to juggle a few projects at a time, jumping from one to another. Which not only kept me interested it increased productivity. (I'm not sure this will work for everyone)

It seems to me the approach to fixing this "decline in the hobby" is to change the hobby to appeal to people who aren't really interested in modeling. Although this is fine to an extent , some of the side affects aren't sitting well with a lot of modelers.
A better approach might be to educate people on how much fun this hobby really is.

As far as the " decline in the hobby" goes, (and this is only my opinion) it depends on what side of the tracks your on.
From the model railroad manufacturers and magazine publishers side , it may look like it's declining as they are probably basing such a statement on yearly profits.
For me (and many others) this hobby is thriving. I have been getting more enjoyment now than in years past.
Enjoyment is what it's about, not profits. If we compare all the people that enjoy this hobby with the companies that feel they aren't making enough profit, then I would say our hobby is growing. [2c]
Our Model railroad group that recently formed is proof enough for me that the hobby is growing.