This thread ought to be locked or, better yet, deleted.
First of all, it was misdirected, to say the least. Assuming that it was appropriate to be posted in the first place, it should have been posted on the Trains Forum, not the MRR Forum.
Second of all, it immediately degenerated into a name calling brawl when someone unjustifiably played the race card (and I don't mean Hamltnblue).
Third of all, it is pointless. Let's dump this thread and move on with some conversation about model railroading.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain This thread ought to be locked or, better yet, deleted. First of all, it was misdirected, to say the least. Assuming that it was appropriate to be posted in the first place, it should have been posted on the Trains Forum, not the MRR Forum. Second of all, it immediately degenerated into a name calling brawl when someone unjustifiably played the race card (and I don't mean Hamltnblue). Third of all, it is pointless. Let's dump this thread and move on with some conversation about model railroading. Rich
A BIG Amen to that.
Joe
I don't know about locking the thread. If we can all be grown-ups and agree to move past an instance of a poorly-phrased post, I think there's some good discussion of accidents, liability, and so on going on here underneath all the vitriol.
FWIW, I agree with Marlon -- there are times when you have to stand up for yourself, and a safety issue is one of those times. I had my qualifications as Helicopter Control Officer revoked by my Commanding Officer once for refusing to land a helo in unsafe conditions, and would do it again in a heartbeat. And anyway, I won that one, because my quals were reinstated once tempers cooled.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Medina1128 teen steam fan: One thing bugs me about this situation, true it is very sad innocent people lost their lives but how can we be sure its the driver's fault and not his boss? The man probably knew that the truck was not safe to drive and didn't want to drive it but the brass might of told him, "Here's the truck keys or there's the door." In this day and age, who can afford to loose a job? I'm not saying whose right and whose wrong but the media (although I will believe it when I see it) said that the rig failed a safety inspection a few months before. My own father's been on that side when he drove a truck. It could of been the truck driver's fault, could of been management. And if he's an owner operator maybe he had to pay the house payment so his kids and family have a roof over their heads? I just don't think that there is enough material here to accuse the trucker and the train's got the right of way by default. I once worked for Waste Management (no, I'm not worried about being sued. It's hard to sue over facts), and we were sent out 3 days in a row with a front loader dumpster truck that had a broken U-bolt that held the rear axle to the springs. I reported it to management, who told us that they'd take care of it. On two consecutive days, I again reported it. On the third day, I took the "there's the door" approach. I then promptly called the Arizona Dept. of Transportation. So, yes, sometimes the company is at fault for constantly getting equipment violations. But, there were over 300 feet of skidmarks before the crash. It's obvious to me that the trucks brakes worked. It was the driver that was "malfunctioning".
teen steam fan: One thing bugs me about this situation, true it is very sad innocent people lost their lives but how can we be sure its the driver's fault and not his boss? The man probably knew that the truck was not safe to drive and didn't want to drive it but the brass might of told him, "Here's the truck keys or there's the door." In this day and age, who can afford to loose a job? I'm not saying whose right and whose wrong but the media (although I will believe it when I see it) said that the rig failed a safety inspection a few months before. My own father's been on that side when he drove a truck. It could of been the truck driver's fault, could of been management. And if he's an owner operator maybe he had to pay the house payment so his kids and family have a roof over their heads? I just don't think that there is enough material here to accuse the trucker and the train's got the right of way by default.
One thing bugs me about this situation, true it is very sad innocent people lost their lives but how can we be sure its the driver's fault and not his boss?
The man probably knew that the truck was not safe to drive and didn't want to drive it but the brass might of told him, "Here's the truck keys or there's the door." In this day and age, who can afford to loose a job? I'm not saying whose right and whose wrong but the media (although I will believe it when I see it) said that the rig failed a safety inspection a few months before. My own father's been on that side when he drove a truck. It could of been the truck driver's fault, could of been management. And if he's an owner operator maybe he had to pay the house payment so his kids and family have a roof over their heads?
I just don't think that there is enough material here to accuse the trucker and the train's got the right of way by default.
I once worked for Waste Management (no, I'm not worried about being sued. It's hard to sue over facts), and we were sent out 3 days in a row with a front loader dumpster truck that had a broken U-bolt that held the rear axle to the springs. I reported it to management, who told us that they'd take care of it. On two consecutive days, I again reported it. On the third day, I took the "there's the door" approach. I then promptly called the Arizona Dept. of Transportation. So, yes, sometimes the company is at fault for constantly getting equipment violations. But, there were over 300 feet of skidmarks before the crash. It's obvious to me that the trucks brakes worked. It was the driver that was "malfunctioning".
Just because you see skid marks, it does not rule out the fact that there could have been problems with the brakes. Depending on the vintange of the tractor and trailers it could of been equiped with any number of manufactures types of ANTI LOCK BRAKES. It would be time consuming to explain as to why some wheels would lock up and some would'nt with ABS systems, but it can happen. And it could be that on some of the axles the brakes were working and others were not.
And as a truck mechanic I have puzzling thoughts about this one. To skid 300' and have enough inpact to disinergrate the tractor. Hmm!!!
Truck.
Hamltn Blue, I just would like to say that I AM a liberal and not only gave you the benefit of the doubt but supported you as a fellow forum member. I would urge you to not lump all "liberals" together as unreasonable, unrealistic or insensitive as I am none of these things.
If you have an issue with ONE forum poster that's fine but please don't use the "liberal" label to lump me with that guy. Without liberalism there would have been no free public education, freedom of religion, a weekend off from work, end of child labor practices, civil rights and a whole bunch of other things that aren't necessarily bad things just because liberals lst voiced concerns or the need for these things.
Are liberals any worse than the conservatives who voiced the same concerns or need of these things?
Selector, I have admired your reluctance to close this thread. So far it has stayed (I believe) within a zone of reasonable (or at least not completely uncivilized) discussion.
I DO think once Paul R. posted though that the insensitivity of all of this took on a different meaning or import...perhaps a split into two threads would work? One for expressions of condolence one to continue this "other" discussion until the moderator feels it's gone too far?
When the general "labeling" of people and beliefs and political leanings starts showing up it might indeed be time to move on- or back to modeling discussions.
If it makes anyone here feel better (probably not) I'm a scuba diver and on similar incidents/accident threads on ALL of those forums, the same thing occurs and devolves into these kinds of things ALSO with a family member of the victim unfortunately witness to it all.
So it's not just this thread, this hobby, this forum but human nature...
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
I am not going to single anyone out on this, but how did we end up with all of this bickering? Seriously, does the race card always have to be brought up in a simple discussion? Blaming race is like blaming Republicans and Democrats for the country's messes. Both are intellectually lazy arguments.
Maybe I was raised wrong, but it sickens me to see this. I try to stay out of discussions like this, but felt that I should prove a point. The thing that gets me is how someone (not just this forum) can write some stupid comment for all the world to see and then feel like they are getting slammed because they were in the wrong for writing it in the first place. Again, maybe I was raised wrong, because my parents said that "If you can't say something nice, then don't say it at all." I have always felt that includes writing on a public discussion forum.
I will step off of my now.
Will
blownout cylinder Are we still going to continue the flame session over this? As it is..he turned out not to be muslim...the guy turned out to be someone who worked for a trucking company that had some safety issues as well as a driver who apparently had some of his own... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/06/27/BA461K37NM.DTL&tsp=1 http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/national_world&id=8215393&rss=rss-kgo-article-8215393 So, I think we can stop banging on the racism card here....
Are we still going to continue the flame session over this?
As it is..he turned out not to be muslim...the guy turned out to be someone who worked for a trucking company that had some safety issues as well as a driver who apparently had some of his own...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/06/27/BA461K37NM.DTL&tsp=1
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/national_world&id=8215393&rss=rss-kgo-article-8215393
So, I think we can stop banging on the racism card here....
I really hate to have to quote myself, but for everyone's edification the facts as they now sit are clearly not being read.
Can we move beyond the race/political party/any other category and actually discuss the facts AS THEY NOW ARE?!?!?!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I agree that it is certainly time to shut down this thread. However, just for the record, the comment about whether or not the driver was a Muslim was not a *racist* statement. The last time I checked, people from all walks of life are free to practice the religion-- or not, as they choose (or are called). If someone makes a nasty comment about Muslims, it is not racism, but rather religious intolerance. I am of the personal opinion that if some people absolutely insist upon comporting themselves in a bigoted manner, then they should at least get their prejudices straight.
Now let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya or something...
John