What do you think?
Ray
Well, I think a more cogent question would be "Is life becoming too expensive for beginners".
Model railroading's not a necessity. It's funded out of what's left over after the necessities of life are paid for.
Andre
It is like any other hobby. You can go cheap, or you can go crazy. You don't have to spend a fortune if you don't want to. Just like golf, get a cheap set of clubs and play the public course or splash out and join the country club and go upscale.
A much better question would be
Is the hobby of model railroading good value?
Of course it depends on what you define as value, but for me the number of hours of fun / pleasure / frustration / accomplishment per dollar spent shows the hobby to be of great value.
Anyway, in the US we have it lucky. We don't pay nearly what the folks in Europe pay for their MRR fix.
But like everything else costs are rising. Fuel, raw materials, the desire of a Chinese worker to get a fair wage, the sinking Dollar will inevitably drive prices up further.
The market demands for more features, better detail, prototype accuracy all push prices up as well.
I do not subscribe to the theory that MRR suppliers and manufacturers are gouging the market. I don't think anyone is getting rich off this hobby.
What I do know is that what I spend provides me with hours of entertainment, years of service and the opportunity to do something with my kids that does not involve a computer game console. Money well spent IMO.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
mmmmmmm....let's see...I put in about $1,500 for an 8core computer system with 16Gb of ram and 2 2Tb Hard drives..plus a couple of external hard drives. A pair of KRK MR8 reference monitors at $159 each. My primary DAW is Cakewalk's Sonar X1 which went for the upgrade price of $99. Then came the numerous hours of learning the thing then the hours of installing the softsynths and FX racks there in...then there is the small matter of Guitars( I've got three here) Basses(2 more) and all their effects and amplifiers..all told around $6,000 worth, then came the modular synthesizers that can cost upwards of $1,000 per module..if you go after the rtr/kit versions,,,those I spent somewhere in the range of $3-4,000 there... plus the acoustic treatment for the studio---another $2,000 there....All told I think I spent about $16,000 or more....
Model railroading too expensive? Naaaah....you just gotta know where to look....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Sir Madog Pennsy nut: Also, part of my situation is priorities - we choose to have my wife stay at home to raise our daughter - so, we have to make it on one income. But, raising our daughter with our family values and not someone elses (which are pretty screwed up these days) is more important than money and things... so, my layout will wait. Truer words have never been written! We did the same and our son turned into our pride and joy. A good family life is so precious these days!
Pennsy nut: Also, part of my situation is priorities - we choose to have my wife stay at home to raise our daughter - so, we have to make it on one income. But, raising our daughter with our family values and not someone elses (which are pretty screwed up these days) is more important than money and things... so, my layout will wait.
Also, part of my situation is priorities - we choose to have my wife stay at home to raise our daughter - so, we have to make it on one income. But, raising our daughter with our family values and not someone elses (which are pretty screwed up these days) is more important than money and things... so, my layout will wait.
Truer words have never been written!
We did the same and our son turned into our pride and joy. A good family life is so precious these days!
My wife and I did exactly the same thing with our 2 boys. During this time, she went to nursing school and became an RN. Now the kids are 16 & 13, we don't feel bad about them being home alone at times. Being a teacher allows me to have the same days off as they do. Works great!
andrechapelon What do you think? Ray Well, I think a more cogent question would be "Is life becoming too expensive for beginners". Model railroading's not a necessity. It's funded out of what's left over after the necessities of life are paid for. Andre
The question is mostly focused on the premise that our hobby is becoming one that will start to drive away newcomers because they walk into a hobby store or online to a few places and the sticker shock has them second guessing themselves. Plus in the age of electronic gizmos and games there seems to be less parents going out buying train sets for the young kids and instead buy them PSP or other stuff. Perhaps the hobby needs to look at how to capture the young again instead of relying on the older modelers who for the most part have more disposable income than younger ones do but we are not the future but guardians of the past and many of our traits and skills we learned in building and creating this hobby is slow disappearing as we lose modelers from death. The question now seems is the hobby getting too expensive for the newcomer? Yes you can slap together a cheap train set on a pacific plywood with styrofoam mountains and a host of life-like accessories, and yes we all had to start somewhere and grow from there, but the choices for the beginner's roster is getting either smaller or more expensive, yes Accurail is still there and yes you can find Athearn's BB at train shows, but not forever and when those start to become more rare you can bet the price for them as collector items will drive the price up. Ebay is a crap shoot sometimes you find good deals other times the shipping kills the deal. I am just worried that we could lose alot of great future modelers due to cost.
Am old geezer; in hobby, on/ off 60 yrs. Recently re-entered HO after being away for some time, due to severe illness in family. IF I had not amassed a ton of HO stuff over the yrs. I would not attempt to start now, as everything is now too darn expensive! It seems that manufacturers are only aiming at doctors, dentists, lawyers, judges, bank presidents, CEOs etc., with Big Bucks and blue-collar folks, who are in a much lower income bracket, are now unimportant to them. Money talks and only the rich can answer! My 2 cents. TTFN.....Old Tom aka papaasmurf in NH
Starting salary in my profession increased approximately 500% in the past 30 years. With that rate a $20 car today would have been $4 thirty years ago. A $100 locomotive would have been $20 and so on. Seems like the increase has been in more advanced electronics )DCC, sound, etc) and more detailed and sophisticated locos and rolling stock. Buy good used products and temper your wants and you can build and equip a 5 x 10 like I did for $500-$1000. Spread that over a few years and the cost is far less than many hobbies/sports. Of course, as others have pointed out, one can spend as much as their pocket book will allow also.
I have heard this same rant for many years. I am near 70 and the tune is always the same.
If I did not own a car for many years and went out and bought one compared to the 1950's, I would probably do the same rant about cost, parts, GAS for the car. blah, blah.
This is the world evolving. Deal with it as best as you can.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I am firmly of the opinion that if there was a demand for lower cost models that could be met profitably, that someone would do it.
I can not believe for a moment that every one of the manufacturers in this hobby are exclusively targeting the very low volume, high profit, high end of the market?
In fact, if I were Atlas (Trainman), Walthers (Trainline, P1K, LifeLike), Broadway Limited (Stealth, Blueline), Bachmann (standard line), Athearn (Bluebox, standard) etc. I would say that I have actively tried to produce lower cost models that were more affordable. In some cases there simply was not sufficient demand to continue production, or the cost of production made the business unprofitable.
BRAKIE Here's the thing..Basic model railroading isn't that much expensive then it was years ago where it gets expensive is when the unnecessary items is added like sound,DCC,high end locomotives and cars. There is still lots of BB kits out there and then there's Accurail.There's e-Bay and on line shops with decent discounts.I seen RTR cars for $9.99 and Athearn RTR as low as $39.95. During the fair I am often ask how expensive is the hobby? My standard answer is "its as expensive as you what to make it." You can buy a some cars a locomotive or two and join the club.
Here's the thing..Basic model railroading isn't that much expensive then it was years ago where it gets expensive is when the unnecessary items is added like sound,DCC,high end locomotives and cars.
There is still lots of BB kits out there and then there's Accurail.There's e-Bay and on line shops with decent discounts.I seen RTR cars for $9.99 and Athearn RTR as low as $39.95.
During the fair I am often ask how expensive is the hobby? My standard answer is "its as expensive as you what to make it." You can buy a some cars a locomotive or two and join the club.
I agree with Brakie. You can spend as much as you want, but have a lot of fun for much less.
Ebay is my favorite hobby store. Used track, used rolling stock, and used locos are dirt cheap, and often they don't need much work to get them running right. Structure kits and used RTR are cheap. Practically everything you need is available used or new old stock for a fraction of the hobby store price.
Lumber and plywood are often sold for a fraction of their regular price if you buy the culled stuff from Lowe's or Home Depot. Since we usually cut it into smaller pieces, anyway - why not buy lumber that is less than the full 8 feet? Pink foam? Same way.
Tools? buy them used.
Scenery? Molding plaster is about $20 for 50# and it makes great scenery.
DCC? Not required. Get a solid state throttle and DC runs trains just fine. Yeah, DCC is neat, but you can be a real model railroader with good old DC. Sound, yes it's neato, but it's not worth it to me.
You can also spend time instead of spending money. Materials to scratchbuild cost less than an RTR structure. Materials to make trees costs much less than pre-built trees. Unpainted figures are about 10 cents each, painted people are about $2 each - $15 in paint and $10 worth of unpainted figures and you have a month's worth of fun and a lot of folks populating your scale sidewalks. GOW and GOR bulbs cost about a buck each at the hobby store, I buy them for a nickel each on eBay - I buy the colored ones, the dye comes off with nail polish remover.
Repair stuff - when your dremel too gets noisy, it's the bearings; a replacement set costs about $10 at the local tool shop. When something wears out or breaks, fix it - don't buy new.
My layout is about 50 square feet with a 60 foot mainline and another 60 feet in spurs and sidings. I have a turntable and all the structures I can find space for. If you count my dozen brass locos, I have about $3000 invested over 10 years. Minus the brass, I've spent about $800. I've spent less than $100 at retail stores (it is not my responsibility to keep them in business - it is their responsibility to learn how to succeed in the current marketplace).
I have a ball and it costs me less than $10/month (I spend more than that on coffee). I don't think it looks like it's missing anything; do you?
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
If you look and are patient enough you can find things alot cheaper, I enjoy building and painting my rolling stock { about 700 } and loco"s {about 100} which is over 50% Kato and the rest Atlas.It"s taken me about 25 years to get this far but I dont drink ,smoke or any other bad habits so I can enjoy my new layout . Its taken me 2 years and over 1200 pieces of code 83 track 75+ turnouts ,Dcc ,sound and everything else that goes with it . I do train shows and get to make some good deals before the doors open so it is a little cheaper for me. I would hate to sit and figure everything at todays prices,altho it would be a long vacation {LOL}. But I"m having fun and the grand kids enjoy all my hard work so it"s worth it. Still workin'on the railroad,Jim.
papasmurf I would not attempt to start now, as everything is now too darn expensive! It seems that manufacturers are only aiming at doctors, dentists, lawyers, judges, bank presidents, CEOs etc., with Big Bucks and blue-collar folks, who are in a much lower income bracket, are now unimportant to them.
I would not attempt to start now, as everything is now too darn expensive! It seems that manufacturers are only aiming at doctors, dentists, lawyers, judges, bank presidents, CEOs etc., with Big Bucks and blue-collar folks, who are in a much lower income bracket, are now unimportant to them.
Bachman train set : $59.99 at MB Klein, consists of:
Add a few bucks for wood, or beg a few sheets of insulation foam sheets from someone building. Newspapers and tape, make some ground goop.
Go get some sand, bake in oven to kill critters, run magnets through to to remove stuff you don't want to end up inside engine.
Go pick some sedums or other plants that could form trunks of trees.Or take some old multistranded electrical wire, remove insulation, shape wires into trunks, add some solder to make trunks. Add paint. Buy a couple of economy bags of ground turf (or take an old kitchen machine from a yard sale and chop up some pieces of old mattress into very small pieces of foam, add green pain. Fasten with hair spray borrowed from wife.
Build buildings from the cardboard in old corn flakes boxes and coffee stirring pins.
New Model Power ready to run boxcars at MB Klein : $7 a pop. Go visit a garage sale and pick up old model railroad cars, cannibalize several to make that is functional, keep rest for spare parts. Rummage through scrap drawer to find interesting looking pieces of metal, give it a blast of automotive primer to create interesting flat car and gondola loads.
And so on and so forth. One does not have to buy everything ready made. One does not have to buy the most expensive choices.
Smile,Stein
If model railroading would be a "cheap" hobby, it would be just that - cheap. Model railroading, like many other hobbies, does require some upfront money, but it is finally you, who decides, how expensive it will be for you.
We would certainly miss another opportunity to fuss and kvetch about, if it were a dead cheap hobby.
I have had a roilroad for 50+years. Started in Lionel, went to HO scale, went to N sclae, went to G scale, went back to HO scale current. So far the hobby has cost nothing. Everytime i sold and switched i recovered what i paid for the items. Sometimes making a very good profit. I buy at the best price i can. Have had 6 layouts.
I can think of several hobbies that cost much more and when your done you are left with nothing but memories.
Trains have done much better than most of the stock market choices i made.
Bob
Look, guys, we can offer cheap solutions to the problem as absurd as going around on garbage day looking in the trash, or to yard sales every weekend, with an eye out for old trains and thereby do the hobby for almost nothing. We can say the newbie needs only to peruse the endless list of discount dealers like on the Internet to locate the best buys. But such situations are unrealistic. The typical newbie lacks knowledge of the either model trains, or the current marketplace. He is unlikely to go endlessly perusing eBay, or the net, in the same knowlegeable fashion we, who have years of experience in the hobby, would do to find the best buys and lowest prices. Some few might come here and ask questions, but the overwhelming majority is likely not going to go that route. Nor will they end up buying the cheapest Bachmann set that they can find. As I've pointed out previously, they will most likely start out by looking for something of better quality and more up-scale. What will catch they eye will be something more comparable with what they see in the magazines and on-line on layouts. So, in response to the OP's question, for a change how about we look at the situation in a more realistic fashion and from more of a newbie's point of view?
If the newbie walks into a hobby shop (if he can even find one these days) he is almost certainly going to start by looking at the nice stuff behind the glass in the show case, not at the low-end boxed Bachmann sets, the few remaining dusty BB cars, nor the MRC DC power pack. But one look at the current prices of those BLI locos with sound, the $40 RTR rolling stock and the Digitrax DCC operating system, will have most newbies reconsidering the whole idea almost immediately and heading for the door. This was a situation that I've personally witnessed repeatedly when at my local model railroad hobby shop in recent years.
Most walk-ins are stunned by the prices that they see...doublely so when they consider that even $1000+ worth of model railroading trains and supplies are just that: a bunch of parts and pieces and not a model railroad. Even rank newbies will appreciate that they still have weeks, or months, of personal effort ahead of them before they are likely to have much of anything up and running permanently, if then! And in today's society, with a multitude of other hobby toys like X-Box, where you take them home and you are 100% operational from day one, the long delay to functionality is in itself a major downer to getting involved in model railroading.
Guys, it's not 1955, when folks did start out with just a toy train set running around the diningroom table and found it as an acceptable starting point. It's 2011 and even the rank newbie wants to start out with something more sophisticated...that is until he sees what it's going to cost him in today's dollars.
CNJ831
Precisely...
That is why it becomes doubtful that anyone will stick with that kind of discipline to save..knowing full well that the thing might be not there when they do have the cash...so...out comes the credit card and ...hey ho..up goes the cc balance....
Look, when I started back in the hobby I had the idea of looking at the flea markets and second hand stores...why?
Because my parents and we spent untold hours doing the antiquing thing long before it became popular...my parents ended up with things that, when they passed on, we ended up with...as heirlooms....my wife has over 100 quilts in her collection..some valued at a ridiculous sum...her parents did the same thing...how many parents are doing that kind of thing now?
There are not a lot of people doing that kind of thing now...and I doubt many will now...
------------------
John, Are you seeing the forrest or the trees?
You making it sound like it is indeed 1955 when its 2011 in the computer age.
I suspect newbies buy their train set from e-Bay,Amazon or on line shops like they do their other needs..
I suspect today's newbie is very savvy in the ways of on line shopping and could very well research various train sets by google and a right click of the mouse...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNJ831 If the newbie walks into a hobby shop (if he can even find one these days) he is almost certainly going to start by looking at the nice stuff behind the glass in the show case, not at the low-end boxed Bachmann sets, the few remaining dusty BB cars, nor the MRC DC power pack. But one look at the current prices of those BLI locos with sound, the $40 RTR rolling stock and the Digitrax DCC operating system, will have most newbies reconsidering the whole idea almost immediately and heading for the door. This was a situation that I've personally witnessed repeatedly when at my local model railroad hobby shop in recent years.
This is a profound failure on the part of the hobby store.
If hobby store owners can not recognize this phenomena and come up with interesting ways to engage newbies and not scare them off with high prices then they are destroying the very lifeblood of their business. As has already been illustrated, there are companies addressing the entry level modeller with decent, well priced models. You don't have to go dumpster diving to get a basic well made setup. In fact I would venture to say that the average start-up gaming system is a much greater cost.
The LHS that I frequent does a lot to try and engage new modellers and by all appearances the store is thriving.
BRAKIE Guys, it's not 1955, when folks did start out with just a toy train set running around the diningroom table and found it as an acceptable starting point. It's 2011 and even the rank newbie wants to start out with something more sophisticated...that is until he sees what it's going to cost him in today's dollars. CNJ831 ------------------ John, Are you seeing the forrest or the trees? You making it sound like it is indeed 1955 when its 2011 in the computer age. I suspect newbies buy their train set from e-Bay,Amazon or on line shops like they do their other needs.. I suspect today's newbie is very savvy in the ways of on line shopping and could very well research various train sets by google and a right click of the mouse...
Larry, I honestly believe that you are being quite overly optimistic in this regard. I have several other relatively expensive hobbies that I pursue. I can guarantee that if you were to take a sudden interest in any one of them and were to attempt to look up where the deals are, or even where the basic materials to pursue them are to be found on the Internet, you and most anyone else here would be absolutely lost. That situation can probably be said to be true in regard to 90% of today's more obscure hobbies (and yes, relative to so many other current popular pursuits, model railroading is an obscure hobby these days).
Rank newbies coming into a hobby currently are even more likely to be overwhelmed and befuddled than ever before, simply because there is less and less in the way of truly accurate and grounded information easily available. The printed hobby guide books that once formed the basic reference material for the beginning hobbyist are likely to be shunned now in favor of all the personal opinion and hype to be found on the Internet. Just look at what get passed on in the way of dubious advice on forums like this one and so many others. Likewise, in the past one might take considerable time examining and digesting written material on a subject before jumping into a hobby. Today, most folks will rush out and make arbitrary, spur of the moment, purchase decisions with far less forethought and solid background knowledge than in years now long past.
Don't over estimate the knowledge of the average individual these days just because it is the electronic age. For the most part, I'm afraid that he's still just the same old creature of rather limited intellect! Did you perhaps miss the recent Newsweek article entitled "How Dumb Are We?"
Yup. Back in '55 if a kid wanted recorded music, he went down to a record store and rummaged through the labels. Today, his kids (and perhaps even grandkids) download music off the 'net into an Ipod or some other digital music player.
Back in '55, if you got your reading material from a library, you had to go down and look things up in a card catalogue, go see if the item was on the shelf and, if so, retrieve your treasures and go check out. Today, you can check online, you can renew online, and you can reserve books online. If your books are nearing their due date, the library will even send you an email notice. You still have to physically pick up books or drop them off, but everything else can be done online.
In '55 if you wanted a plane, train or bus ticket, you either had to go through a travel agency or get in touch with a specific carrier either in person or by phone. Today you can reserve and pay for the same ticket. In many instances, you don't even need a ticket now as the carrier has a your record in its computer system.
In '55, if you wanted to shop for a car, you had to go to the dealer. If you were comparison shopping, you had to go to several to look at different makes and models. Now most of it can be done online except for the actual purchase.
In '55, if virtually all banking was done in person. Today you can do all your banking without ever setting foot in a bank with the possible exception of the original setup of your account. OTOH, we've had the same bank for so long (30+ years), even the original account setup may be able to able to be done online today, I don't know as it's never been an issue for us.
In '55, if you were looking for a particular business, you went to the Yellow Pages. If their hours of business weren't posted, you had to call them. Today, most of that info is online and you can often shop online even if the business isn't a large chain.
In '55, paying retail was the norm (in part due to the existence of "fair trade laws"). Now discounting is the norm and you can pretty much find the best price by letting your fingers do the walking on your computer's keyboard.
The only things you can't do online anymore, really, are those things that actually require your physical presence (e.g. you can't fly from SFO to JFK without actually getting on a plane).
There are still people out there that do things the old fashioned way, but that population is diminishing rapidly as it ages towards that final hurrah.
We have a couple of Pizza places that regularly stuff my email addy with spam about their pizzas....
I can download songs into my Palm Pre 2 without using my computer..as well as muck around with some on-line DAWs...Digital Audio Workstations....or go messing around with an online sequencer...
example...http://lab.andre-michelle.com/tonematrix
Don't over estimate the knowledge of the average individual these days just because it is the electronic age. For the most part, I'm afraid that he's still just the same old creature of rather limited intellect!
----------------------
John,Just for fun name one and I'll see what I can find..
I might fall flat on my face but,I'm a little optimistic because I walk into digital cameras knowing very little but,found out what I needed to know by the Internet before buying one.I can go on about other things including my wide screen TV,rare coins and a odd looking fish my neighbor caught..
Now,if a 63 year man can do this what can the younger folk do?
Don't forget most people has general idea on how to use a computer since they're everywhere.
BRAKIE Don't over estimate the knowledge of the average individual these days just because it is the electronic age. For the most part, I'm afraid that he's still just the same old creature of rather limited intellect! CNJ831 ---------------------- John,Just for fun name one and I'll see what I can find.. I might fall flat on my face but,I'm a little optimistic because I walk into digital cameras knowing very little but,found out what I needed to know by the Internet before buying one.I can go on about other things including my wide screen TV,rare coins and a odd looking fish my neighbor caught.. Now,if a 63 year man can do this what can the younger folk do? Don't forget most people has general idea on how to use a computer since they're everywhere.
OK.....how's about: the best, or most cost effective, American charge couple device with integral UBV filtration capabilities for amateur use in astronomical photometry. Together with a recommendation of compatible analysis software? And seriously, yes, this would be an fairly entry level question for folks entertaining the idea of entering this particular area of one of my alternate hobby pursuits.
I think it is time to close this one off, fellas. We are limited to a few diehard players and as many hockey fans observing. Time to move on.
Crandell