Hey Sheldon, I've got a complaint about them. They're too frigging expensive!!!! And what's with still using the old "pot metal" boilers on the 2-8-2 and the 4-6-2??? Those 2 engines are just the ticket for kitbashing in their new form but not at the prices they want for them. And how about going to plastic boilers with a weight installed instead of the pot metal? Like working on an old Varney or something. I've broken more little drills working on pot metal than most anything else.
That 4-6-2 would work great for the ones you want for your railroad "if".....but at the prices they want for them a person would end up with well over $200 in each one and as you already know you can find older brass ones for that money.
So, there's a complaint for you about the old Mantua/Model Power, on the other hand, that little Sierra #38 they make is perfect for kitbashing.
Mark
Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course...
But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material...
...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Forty Niner Hey Sheldon, I've got a complaint about them. They're too frigging expensive!!!! And what's with still using the old "pot metal" boilers on the 2-8-2 and the 4-6-2??? Those 2 engines are just the ticket for kitbashing in their new form but not at the prices they want for them. And how about going to plastic boilers with a weight installed instead of the pot metal? Like working on an old Varney or something. I've broken more little drills working on pot metal than most anything else. That 4-6-2 would work great for the ones you want for your railroad "if".....but at the prices they want for them a person would end up with well over $200 in each one and as you already know you can find older brass ones for that money. So, there's a complaint for you about the old Mantua/Model Power, on the other hand, that little Sierra #38 they make is perfect for kitbashing. Mark
Well Mark, I have to agree that even at the $120-$150 street prices I see on them, I'm not buying them, stripping them down, and adding a box of Cal Scale either. But I was of course refering to "factory defect complaints".
I considered that option back when Mantua themselves upgraded to can motors and such, ruled it out then too. I do the same thing, watch for brass Pacific bargins - until somebody makes sometihng nice.
In fact, two of my three Pacifics are my only brass, now with nice Bachmann tenders!
Sheldon
blownout cylinder Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee
And we are patiently waiting, especially since you might be our best hope.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL blownout cylinder: Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee And we are patiently waiting, especially since you might be our best hope. Sheldon
blownout cylinder: Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee
I've been scanning some of Andre's sites he comes up with...
It might be an idea to toss out a question now then...
What would you like to see in a kit in the first place?
We have in mind a kit that has the 'prototype' photo of the locomotive in question..as well as a small booklet of information about it. We have a kit that will probably fit a out maybe 2-3 different versions of said chassis....go from there...
blownout cylinder ATLANTIC CENTRAL: blownout cylinder: Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee And we are patiently waiting, especially since you might be our best hope. Sheldon I've been scanning some of Andre's sites he comes up with... It might be an idea to toss out a question now then... What would you like to see in a kit in the first place? We have in mind a kit that has the 'prototype' photo of the locomotive in question..as well as a small booklet of information about it. We have a kit that will probably fit a out maybe 2-3 different versions of said chassis....go from there...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: blownout cylinder: Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee And we are patiently waiting, especially since you might be our best hope. Sheldon
I have an idea.... why don't we work out the details of a conversion kit... something along the lines of sawing a Big Boy in half and getting.... uh... well, I'm not really sure. But I do like the idea of sawing the Big Boy in half, so that's a start at least. Maybe after we saw up enough of them the answer will come to us...
Of course, you could always just saw it in half length-ways and then you'd have TWO Big Boys, which would work great as long as you only run them in one direction on the layout. But that could work too-- you'd have one for coming and one for going, and you wouldn't have to turn them around at the ends...
John
It's not just a case of what we'd like, Barry. It's also a case of what will give you some manufacturing flexibility. I was taking a look at some of the specs for CPR 4-6-2's and a couple of things really stand out. ALL the various classes of classes G-1 through G-5 have a rigid wheel base of right around 13 feet regardless of driver diameter (either 70" or 75"). The engine wheel bases vary by less that 1.5 feet for all classes with the max being 35 feet. In HO scale, you could use the same chassis for all classes of CPR 4-6-2's. But wait, there's more.
The rigid wheel base of a Harriman Heavy 4-6-2 is 13.33 feet. The overall engine wheelbase is 35.67 feet. Near as I can figure, that's less than 1/10 of an inch in HO scale. Furthermore, the 75" drivers of the CPR engines are so close to the 77" of the Harriman that the difference is nearly invisible to the naked eye in HO scale. And if you wanted to add a Harriman light to your arsenal (now being the mfgr known as "The Pacific Dude"), the overall engine wheelbase is 33.33 feet.
A lot of this is more art than engineering. If the thing looks right, it is right even if there are some variances from true 1/87.1 scale. It's done all the time. Drivers are less than prototype to be able to use prototype wheel base or wheel base expanded (with some proportionate changes made to boiler) to use scale size drivers. The Bachmann Spectrum USRA 4-8-2's use 64" drivers rather than the correct 69" drivers. They look right, which is the important factor.
Andre
Sheldon,AFAIK, GSB announced the SD40 project and had all kinds of trouble getting it out the door. Lots of delays. I'd have to ask Andy Harmon just how long the delays were, but from what I've heard, they were significant. Athearn was and still is pretty good about keeping things secret, but I can't help but to think they saw an opportunity to wipe out a budding competitor and so produced the SD40 in reaction to the GSB announcement rather than mere coincedence.
BTW, did you forget about the 1970's Atlas FP7? The 1980's Stewart F's? Or the Cary F's? And there was a slew of trainset-type junk from everyone from Revell to Fleischmann to Bachmann. These were not all in competition with each other, that is true. But in their own classes, they did.
One other question for you: While we don't know the sales numbers for anything, Bachmann knows their own numbers, one would assume. If the 2-8-0 is such a moneymaker as you and the other small steam mafia say (that's a joke...), then why hasn't Bachmann tried to duplicate it with another simular design? Why not a simularly inexpensive & generic 4-6-0, 0-6-0, or 2-6-0? Or a 4-4-2 or 4-4-0? Sure, Bachmann has made some of these smaller engines, but they aren't like the 2-8-0 nor are they priced like it. Why? If the 2-8-0 has sold more than all the Big Boys combined (as someone else has said), why aren't there more like that from Bachmann?
Paul A. Cutler III
Sure, Bachmann has made some of these smaller engines, but they aren't like the 2-8-0 nor are they priced like it. Why? If the 2-8-0 has sold more than all the Big Boys combined (as someone else has said), why aren't there more like that from Bachmann?
Maybe part of the reason is that Bachmann is into multiple scales (Fn3, On2.5, HO and N not to mention they now own the Williams line of 3 rail O gauge). They also make a broad range of OO scale offerings for the British Market as well as HO scale for the Chinese market and they also own the former Liliput line which produced German and Austrian based models in HO. Did I mention they also absorbed the Graham Farish line of N scale models? http://www.bachmann.co.uk/avail.php Quite frankly, I think Bachmann can be excused for thinking of the US HO market as a business segment in a broader international market rather than their primary business. You should rummage around the Bachmann UK site a while and see just what it is they offer. It's kinda mind boggling.
With the kind of market presence Bachmann has internationally, they have to take on new product development in a judicious and disciplined manner. After all, they did release the N scale version of the HO scale 4-6-0 just recently and it wouldn't surprise me if they did the Russian Decapod in N next.
Paul3 Sheldon,AFAIK, GSB announced the SD40 project and had all kinds of trouble getting it out the door. Lots of delays. I'd have to ask Andy Harmon just how long the delays were, but from what I've heard, they were significant. Athearn was and still is pretty good about keeping things secret, but I can't help but to think they saw an opportunity to wipe out a budding competitor and so produced the SD40 in reaction to the GSB announcement rather than mere coincedence. BTW, did you forget about the 1970's Atlas FP7? The 1980's Stewart F's? Or the Cary F's? And there was a slew of trainset-type junk from everyone from Revell to Fleischmann to Bachmann. These were not all in competition with each other, that is true. But in their own classes, they did. One other question for you: While we don't know the sales numbers for anything, Bachmann knows their own numbers, one would assume. If the 2-8-0 is such a moneymaker as you and the other small steam mafia say (that's a joke...), then why hasn't Bachmann tried to duplicate it with another simular design? Why not a simularly inexpensive & generic 4-6-0, 0-6-0, or 2-6-0? Or a 4-4-2 or 4-4-0? Sure, Bachmann has made some of these smaller engines, but they aren't like the 2-8-0 nor are they priced like it. Why? If the 2-8-0 has sold more than all the Big Boys combined (as someone else has said), why aren't there more like that from Bachmann? Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,
First, an FP7 does compete with F7's, it'sa different loco and that was the first time it had ever been offered other than brass. And even now there are only two of those on the market - Genesis and Intermountain - Mine are Intermountain because they are available as undecorated kits.
I don't know what really happened regarding the SD40 - I don't care. But given the direction Athearn was on at the time, I suspect is was comming with or without GSB.
Stewart? well that was the late 80's, after I was out of that business, and, as I did indicate, that's when things started to change in general.
Cary? Buy the late 70's all the modelers I knew where putting can motors, diesel dress up kits, and GSB interiors in/on Athearn F's. Very few still messed with Hobbytown or Cary.
Paul you miss the point completely - I'm not saying there should not be any competittion on a given item, I just think it is likely to be bad business to be the third, forth or fifth guy making the same thing.
Even back then, Athearn and MDC both made 40' steel box cars - so what? They did not spend every minute and every product developement dollar tring to run each other out of business, they worked to expand the market. And there is STILL plenty of room to expand the market.
Did you ever find it interesting that Life Like never did a Proto2000 F unit while they owned Proto? Life like also saw the wisdom of leaving the F unit business to Athearn and Stewart. Only after Walthers ownership - Walthers who after years of being a key distributor for Athearn and MDC, gave both of them the short shaft in catalog presentation after they bought TrainMinature and had their own line of shake the box kits to promote. So Athearn got smart, went to self distribution, left Walthers without F units for their fancy new passenger cars. Presto - we get yest another EMD F unit.
More thoughts of Funits - BLI/PCM, they were just a one time flash in the pan. Where are they now? MTH - not for me. Athearn, Stewart and Intermountain seem to have that mostly covered. The new Proto, even though I have one set, it will be the only set I buy, and I generally like Proto. But Walthers messed up, with the gear ratio thing and the lack of undecorated bodies for all the variations/phases. If you buy the Proto version undecorated, you get the stupid 1960's shell with the skirts removed. I saw that and said no thank you. I bough one set in C&O, they are OK, but from here on out it's Intermountain or Genesis for any more F units.
In Walthers defense, Sheldon, Horizon bought both Athearn and MDC and, being a hobby distributor, are in direct competition with Walthers. Quite frankly, I think it's kinda stupid that Walthers brought out their own line of F's when they could have bought them elsewhere or even come to some kind of arrangement with Horizon to supply their needs, but then I'm not the one running the companies in question. Not all business decisions are rational.
I do notice that Athearn hasn't tried to "Genesize" their PA's or come out with a line of E units, so maybe there's some rationality somewhere.
andrechapelon Did you ever find it interesting that Life Like never did a Proto2000 F unit while they owned Proto? Life like also saw the wisdom of leaving the F unit business to Athearn and Stewart. Only after Walthers ownership - Walthers who after years of being a key distributor for Athearn and MDC, gave both of them the short shaft in catalog presentation after they bought TrainMinature and had their own line of shake the box kits to promote. So Athearn got smart, went to self distribution, left Walthers without F units for their fancy new passenger cars. Presto - we get yest another EMD F unit. In Walthers defense, Sheldon, Horizon bought both Athearn and MDC and, being a hobby distributor, are in direct competition with Walthers. Quite frankly, I think it's kinda stupid that Walthers brought out their own line of F's when they could have bought them elsewhere or even come to some kind of arrangement with Horizon to supply their needs, but then I'm not the one running the companies in question. Not all business decisions are rational. I do notice that Athearn hasn't tried to "Genesize" their PA's or come out with a line of E units, so maybe there's some rationality somewhere. Andre
Andre, I know and agree. But Walthers too is both a manufcturer and a distributor. My point is that Walthers finally had done to them, what they had done to many other companies. Walthers spent years buying up little guys and controling the source of supply. Horizion returned the favor - with two of the biggest names in the business. And while there are lots of competing models out there, Athearn still does not appear in a rush to compete with established existing product - Like Proto PA's or E units.
And while it is a seperate topic, it is all also linked to the move toward self distribution by manufacturers and the slow death of "wholesale distribution" like we knew it in the old days.