IronGoat ... let's get a quality small steam loco set up on a "pre-order" basis and see if there is a marketable demand for it.
... let's get a quality small steam loco set up on a "pre-order" basis and see if there is a marketable demand for it.
The problem with pre-orders is that people have become disenchanted with the process, so it may actually defeat the purpose fo finding out "if there is a market for small steam". WHy? people are tired of pre-ordering something they have to wait a year, a year and a half, or two years for IF it is produced; They want it now, not later; there were many disagreements over hobbby shops and e-tailers charging credit cards when the order was placed as opposed to when the product actually shipped, so many people stopped pre-orders with this pre-payment system for something that may have production actually cancelled; many were pre-ordering based on a 6 month to a year production schedule, but cancelling when that schedule got shoved off another 6 months or another year and cancelled their orders.; Pre-orders not coming up "to muster" in "sufficient quantities" were production cancelled by manufacurers; nad no see it, smell it touch it, taste it on-the-shelf varieties were produced for those who wanted to look first adn see if they wanted to buy it. You want to see a car on the lot before you order one from the dealer, rihgt? not order one sight unseen with an unknown promise of maybe a delivery date inthe future...
Bachmann DOES produce a 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler and A Richmond Moder 4-4-0 in their Spectrum line, both built and operating between 1900 and 1910, some until as late as the 50's in real life, so there IS some pre-WWI models...they do come at a price with sound and DCC. Unfortuantely, So many look down at Bachmann and would not even consider it even though these models are their Spectrum Varieties. Bachman DOES produce a 2-6-2 Prairie in DC and a DC 0-6-0 switcher in their regular line. Bachmann DOES produce a 2-8-0 DCC loco, regular line. SO there ARE some of these smaller steams being produced. ANd in most cases, with Bachmann products are actually available in stock at many places. All but 1 loco in my many fleet of steamers and various larger quantities of diesels are Bachmann, regular and spectrum and they are all good runners and I am happy with the DCC OnBoard running and the prices I paid for them {I don't do sound}. I won't "do" the DC only models as I am not adept at installing decoders. and sound is not neccesary to me, but those who are adept at such, or who change out the Bachmann decoder anyway can get a decent Loco at a Decent price.
Here in the USA price and size DO matter. Price equates to size, like it or not. No one will pay $500,000 for a house that is 1100 sq ft if they can get a 5,000 sq ft house for the same $500k in the same area. No one will pay $45,000 for a munchkin Honda Civic, when they can get a full sized SUV. ANd to keep the popluar high priced SUVs selling, they were the first models to put in hybrid engines to bring gas mileage up to around 30 MPG, comparable or better than the little muchkin cars. Paying $300-$500 for a Bigboy makes sense, paying $300 for a 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 switcher seems "not so much", and I would swallow hard at buying one for that price...
Big Boys and Articulateds had/have a "novelty" effect to them, so people will buy them "just because". A foriegn {I think Sweden USA modeler} actually bought 25 BigBoys to represent the actual number of bigboys produced and operated "just so he would have them"!! Only one RR used the Bigboys and on certain tracks only, yet they sold like hot cakes. "Novelty Factor". Just like "junk souveniers" sometimes people wil buy anything for the NOVELTY of it. TO be sure for maximum exposure, then made them to operate on the tightest R curves tehy could to appeal to the maximum number of "got a have it novelty buyers".
Start up costs are to be taken into consideration. People don't want the same old less detailed 2-6-2 produced 25 years ago, they want better detailing and the tool and die set up costs money, as does the design of them. Tool and dies only last for so many quality castings before they wear out. SO a new design and tooling costs money, replacing them costs more money.
,And so are general rising prices. Everything is going up, inflation or not, cost of living increases or not, fluctuations in currency or not, everything is going up. SO, too will, MRRing products. At one time many years ago my mother, as my parents embarked on buying a new vehicle, made the comment that she "had a hard time paying more for a vehicle than she paid for the house". It happens.
Lastly, I think, sad to say, steam may be on its way out. More and more diesels are being produced and steam DID go out of real life service about 60 years ago altogether, except for a few for backup or for tourists lines. AS people demand more or buy more modern diesels, the steamers may be taking a fast back seat. SOme GP-something-or-others-in-multi-phases are still in real service today, but are slowly either wearing out, or are not meeting new fuel consumption guidlines or can't match or beat the new gensets and other more eficient diesels produced today, according to Trains magazine articles. SO the Geeps have had a long run, but they are also being retired, and only nostalgia transition F-series and steamers are running today in real life, and THEY are having a hard time staying afloat at scenic tourist steam runs and train gatherings. Steam locos cost more to operate and maintain and most steam toruists roads have {maybe a vintage} diesel on hand too, in case the steam breaks down, or to conserve wear on the steamers, and can't make it anymore without raising their prices too. Let's face it there aren't a lot of Model T's or model A's still running around on the roads except in parades. Nor are 57 chevies or 53 Ford woodies or whatever HO scale cars modelers are demanding to be produced. running around on our roads, they only show up at car shows and parades.
Don't get me wrong, I Love steam, especially standing next to a live fired, breathing, coal smoke belching steamer, or have one thundering by me. I live close enough to Steamtown in Scranton that I can go several times when they bring out and run the steamers. I spend my summer months and vacations traveling to steam related tourists line to see/smell/{even taste} the coal smoke and oil and listen to the air pumps pumping up the tanks, the clang of the bell as they move in and out, and hte whistle as they need to. But many on the tourists lines locos are about or over 100 years old, and lets face it, they are wearing out. REbuilds cost a lot of money, and much of todays steamers are facing almost complete rebuild restorations to meet todays standards. I believe even Strasburg RR, which has long been a profitable tourist steam operation, is having troubles keeping up and keeping expenses down. And they do their own work and farm themselves and thier shops out to other steam tourists lines to rebuild/replace parts of locos. Then sometimes the funding runs out for projects and either get scrapped altogether, or put on hold till more funds can be obtained to finish projects, and another tourist steamer bites the dust.
I find my layout {a pragmatic 20th century layout-easy to change out various eras} decreasing in steamers, and increasing in diesels, which i thought I would NEVER do. Steam all the way for me. Then I got my first diesel...simply because they started making GP35's the month after I was born so they were as old as I am, so I wanted one and so set of a new respect for/like/admiration for these "boring boxes on wheels" as I used to call them without moving parts like siderods.
Art imitates life, and Life imitates art.
Manufacturers will only manufacture what people will buy, and people will only buy what manufacturers produce. SO if another steamer was never produced from now on, all MRRers would have to switch to diesels, scratch build their own steamers, or buy.....nothing and get out of the hobby.
and the almight dollar {Yuan, yen, Pound sterling, Euro, etc} rules the day....
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
galaxy IronGoat: ... let's get a quality small steam loco set up on a "pre-order" basis and see if there is a marketable demand for it. The problem with pre-orders is that people have become disenchanted with the process, so it may actually defeat the purpose fo finding out "if there is a market for small steam". WHy? people are tired of pre-ordering something they have to wait a year, a year and a half, or two years for IF it is produced; They want it now, not later; there were many disagreements over hobbby shops and e-tailers charging credit cards when the order was placed as opposed to when the product actually shipped, so many people stopped pre-orders with this pre-payment system for something that may have production actually cancelled; many were pre-ordering based on a 6 month to a year production schedule, but cancelling when that schedule got shoved off another 6 months or another year and cancelled their orders.; Pre-orders not coming up "to muster" in "sufficient quantities" were production cancelled by manufacurers; nad no see it, smell it touch it, taste it on-the-shelf varieties were produced for those who wanted to look first adn see if they wanted to buy it. You want to see a car on the lot before you order one from the dealer, rihgt? not order one sight unseen with an unknown promise of maybe a delivery date inthe future... Bachmann DOES produce a 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler and A Richmond Moder 4-4-0 in their Spectrum line, both built and operating between 1900 and 1910, some until as late as the 50's in real life, so there IS some pre-WWI models...they do come at a price with sound and DCC. Unfortuantely, So many look down at Bachmann and would not even consider it even though these models are their Spectrum Varieties.........
IronGoat: ... let's get a quality small steam loco set up on a "pre-order" basis and see if there is a marketable demand for it.
Bachmann DOES produce a 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler and A Richmond Moder 4-4-0 in their Spectrum line, both built and operating between 1900 and 1910, some until as late as the 50's in real life, so there IS some pre-WWI models...they do come at a price with sound and DCC. Unfortuantely, So many look down at Bachmann and would not even consider it even though these models are their Spectrum Varieties.........
Galaxy,
That was quite a rant, and largely I agree.
I have mostly Bachmann/Spectrum steam as well. And I find it just as good overall as those "higher priced" brands that have to be "pre ordered"
I've never pre-ordered a model train in 41 years, I'm not starting now.
I don't use DCC or sound, and find the prices of almost all DC (DCC ready) models on the market to be in an acceptable range. And, Bachmann's DCC onboard line are also acceptably priced and the decoders easily removed (and they sell well on Ebay too).
I do think that "DCC w/sound" has been "used" to run up the prices a little - but, if those who like it are will to pay it fine. Just sell me one that is DC or DCC only with an easily removed decoder.
I think there is some truth to size/price perception, but it may not be as bad as it first appears. Using prices I have paid, actual street prices, not retail, but not "give away closeout prices", consider the following:
Bachmann 4-8-2 Heavy - DCC ready - when in production a few years ago - average street price $125
Bachmann 2-8-0 DCC ready or DCC onboard, regardless of Spectrum/Std packing - a.s.p. $85.00
Broadway Limited 2-8-2, light or heavy, Blueline or 1st powerhouse - a.s.p. $160.00
Proto 0-8-0 DCC ready a.s.p. $160
Proto 2-8-8-2 DCC ready versions - a.s.p. $300 or less
It is only the newest offerings from BLI, MTH and Proto with DCC/sound that have moved prices into the $400 and up range.
But, I would happily pay $200 - $250 for ANY good DC steam loco model regardless of size if it fills a missing spot on my roster.
I will say I'm not paying $400 and up, with DCC/sound, without it, what ever - If I was willing to spend that kind of money on these things, I would have a house full of brass - I don't - only two out of 120 are brass - both bought for less that $200 each.
Most expensive loco I own - Rivarossi 2-6-6-6 - paid $325 - no DCC, no sound.
I do have a few I paid over $200 for, PCM Reading T1's, BLI N&W Class A, Bachmann 2-6-6-2's, Proto 2-8-8-2's, etc.
I realize we are in the middle of a economic correction and prices are likely to ajust upwards - that's why I am willing to pay $250 - even for an Atlantic. I have a fleet of 9 Spectrum 4-8-2 Heavy Mountains with a dollar cost average price of $100 each - those days are gone. But $400, $500, I don't think so. That would likely make me decide that 120 locomotives is enough.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL galaxy: IronGoat: ... let's get a quality small steam loco set up on a "pre-order" basis and see if there is a marketable demand for it. The problem with pre-orders is that people have become disenchanted with the process, so it may actually defeat the purpose fo finding out "if there is a market for small steam". WHy? people are tired of pre-ordering something they have to wait a year, a year and a half, or two years for IF it is produced; They want it now, not later; there were many disagreements over hobbby shops and e-tailers charging credit cards when the order was placed as opposed to when the product actually shipped, so many people stopped pre-orders with this pre-payment system for something that may have production actually cancelled; many were pre-ordering based on a 6 month to a year production schedule, but cancelling when that schedule got shoved off another 6 months or another year and cancelled their orders.; Pre-orders not coming up "to muster" in "sufficient quantities" were production cancelled by manufacurers; nad no see it, smell it touch it, taste it on-the-shelf varieties were produced for those who wanted to look first adn see if they wanted to buy it. You want to see a car on the lot before you order one from the dealer, rihgt? not order one sight unseen with an unknown promise of maybe a delivery date inthe future... Bachmann DOES produce a 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler and A Richmond Moder 4-4-0 in their Spectrum line, both built and operating between 1900 and 1910, some until as late as the 50's in real life, so there IS some pre-WWI models...they do come at a price with sound and DCC. Unfortuantely, So many look down at Bachmann and would not even consider it even though these models are their Spectrum Varieties......... Galaxy, That was quite a rant, and largely I agree.
galaxy: IronGoat: ... let's get a quality small steam loco set up on a "pre-order" basis and see if there is a marketable demand for it. The problem with pre-orders is that people have become disenchanted with the process, so it may actually defeat the purpose fo finding out "if there is a market for small steam". WHy? people are tired of pre-ordering something they have to wait a year, a year and a half, or two years for IF it is produced; They want it now, not later; there were many disagreements over hobbby shops and e-tailers charging credit cards when the order was placed as opposed to when the product actually shipped, so many people stopped pre-orders with this pre-payment system for something that may have production actually cancelled; many were pre-ordering based on a 6 month to a year production schedule, but cancelling when that schedule got shoved off another 6 months or another year and cancelled their orders.; Pre-orders not coming up "to muster" in "sufficient quantities" were production cancelled by manufacurers; nad no see it, smell it touch it, taste it on-the-shelf varieties were produced for those who wanted to look first adn see if they wanted to buy it. You want to see a car on the lot before you order one from the dealer, rihgt? not order one sight unseen with an unknown promise of maybe a delivery date inthe future... Bachmann DOES produce a 4-6-0 Ten Wheeler and A Richmond Moder 4-4-0 in their Spectrum line, both built and operating between 1900 and 1910, some until as late as the 50's in real life, so there IS some pre-WWI models...they do come at a price with sound and DCC. Unfortuantely, So many look down at Bachmann and would not even consider it even though these models are their Spectrum Varieties.........
Well, I am glad you largely agree, but it wasn't meant as a rant at all. It was more point-counterpoint, and I was the counterpoint to several posts. Rather than quote them all I went on with my counterpoints..
So many complain about the preoder process i don't think it tells any manufacturer nil. SO I inserted that "rant" as you call it. If we relied on preoders only no loco would ever get built as people don't like the process. I preodered some passenger cars from Con-Cor in Oct, due out in "early 2011". THey are supposed to call me when they have them in stock to be sure I still want them and to ship them then...whenever that may be. "early 2011" could still be MAy.. Does my preoder tell them how many others might be interested if they could see the product before forking over the $50 per one of different 4 cars, not really I don't think...
I'm glad you enjoy your Bachmanns. so do I...perhaps that part might be misconstrued as a rant. I get tired of people putting down Bachmann or saying "nobody makes a .... " when Bachmann clearly does...it's as if Bachmann doesn't exist, and apparently to some it doesn't register on their radar... Bachmann of today is far better than others like LifeLike or some of the other stuff people will pay dearly for on Ebay for old runs that had/have problems. But hey, it's their money and desires. TO some if it doens't say "cadillac" or "lincoln Continental " {IE MTH, BLI, Etc.} on it it ain't worth crap. On another forum some have started to complain about failures of their expensive MTHs and surmised perhaps more didn't complain as they were embarrassed about spending expensive money only to get a defective product. Their summations, not mine. No manufacturer can have 100% perfect product 100% of the time, and well, customer service people have bad days too.
The costs of everything nowadays, as in times past, are going up, quantities are going down and customer satisfaction is taking flight after they have your money. No different than at times in the past. Many blame the chinese, but we still had QA and QC and customer service issues when products were made right here in the good old USA {Never buy a USA car built on a monday or Friday-remember that saying?}.
Hope you enjoyed my "rant" and glad to see that you took the time to make point-counterpoints to my "rant" as you called it. Hope others enjoy it as well adn give pause for thought.
galaxy
N scale is more limited, but I guarantee if someone came out with a 4-4-2 either R-T-R or kit form, I ould be picking up a hand full. I think remember an announcement in MR few months back about a 4-4-0 in N, I do believe by Bachmann so I'm waiting on that, but if the larger tank engines mentioned were made I would probably pick up one or two of each, again R-T-R or kit.
I'm kinda wishing Model Power would open up a little more in N. the MR based hobby store I go to has a small fleet of MP 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's, along with a Mogul and American. They are all beautiful looking locomotives and I would like to get one of each of them. I wish they would put them all together though. They have the Mogul displayed next to the American and it just dwarfs it, would like to see that teeny American sitting next to the Mikado.
Amen, how about some 0-4-0's 0-6-0's 0-8-0's ? Randy Staller
I have heard various phrases both here on this thread and in my thread of "what new product would you like to see" {Excluding locos in my thread though as everyone wants this or that loco in this or that livery}.
SO, I do also wonder how many people actually DO "pick up a handfull", or "buy 6 or so", or "add a dozen to my roster" of a loco {or RR car} "if only....they would come out with them"...especially all at once if they are produced at say $200.00 or $300 a pop. DO people REALLY shell out $1,200 or $1,800 {or more} for 6 locos when they come out or do they really only buy one or two and as time moves along and add to their collections later. I'll bet its the latter.
I wonder how many actually pre-order a half dozen locos when pre-order time comes, or do they only pre-order one to see what it looks like and how it performs THEN decide to order or buy more? I'll bet that is more like it.
galaxy I have heard various phrases both here on this thread and in my thread of "what new product would you like to see" {Excluding locos in my thread though as everyone wants this or that loco in this or that livery}. SO, I do also wonder how many people actually DO "pick up a handfull", or "buy 6 or so", or "add a dozen to my roster" of a loco {or RR car} "if only....they would come out with them"...especially all at once if they are produced at say $200.00 or $300 a pop. DO people REALLY shell out $1,200 or $1,800 {or more} for 6 locos when they come out or do they really only buy one or two and as time moves along and add to their collections later. I'll bet its the latter. I wonder how many actually pre-order a half dozen locos when pre-order time comes, or do they only pre-order one to see what it looks like and how it performs THEN decide to order or buy more? I'll bet that is more like it.
OK as a personal example: I have posted on numerous occasions info and pictures of my conversion of Bachmann 2-8-4's into freelanced LIMA heavy Mikados. I am doing five of these. Here again is a picture of one right before repainting:
True, I did not buy all five on the same day - BUT, I did buy the first one - test the idea, then bought the next four in groups of two, and two extra tenders for different variations, all within a six month period. Four of the five conversions are well underway. I find it easier to do this sort of thing on a "production" basis.
My two PCM Reading T-1 4-8-4's, both special ordered (after they became available, not preordered) by phone and picked up together. I only wanted two, remember Northerns came late in steam and were produced in small quantities - only about 750 total in North America.
There are at least serveral members of this forum CONSANTLY taking about the fact they just picked up three of this or 4 of that ,etc.
One fellow modeler I know personally has 6 Rivarossi 2-6-6-6's (not to mention two or three brass ones as well), I know for a fact 3 were purchased at the same time, on the same day from the same dealer.
I think that among those of us who have a "multiple" mind set, it goes on more than you think.
The reason for the multiple mind set is simple - rather than a one of everything hodge podge of locos, we are interested in populating our layouts with realistic rosters for the roads we model.
To use my friend wth the 2-6-6-6's as an example, obviously he models the C&O. If you pulled up to the engine terminal in Hinton WV in 1948, there would have easily been four, five, six or more of those locos sitting around, being fueled or serviced, coming and going, etc.
I plan to do a lot of double/tripple heading when my layout is complete, all steam locos come in groups for the most part, at least two or three, usually more. Some times I buy them spread over a period of time, but often at least two at a time.
And if we talk about diesels, I vertually always buy complete matched sets the way I plan to run them, never willing to take a chance on them being available later. So in most cases that means at least three or four powered pieces at a clip. I decided I wanted two sets of ABB FP7's from Intermountain - went to my local shop with the part numbers and ordered them - all six.
Again, I don't/won't preorder, but after inspecting and/or buying one as a test, I have no problem buying my desired quanitity all at once or in very short order.
And, bought all at once of over time, the point remains that a "modeler" interested in a realistic roster of multiples is a better potential customer than a collector who buys one for his trophy case.
"Well, I am glad you largely agree, but it wasn't meant as a rant at all. It was more point-counterpoint, and I was the counterpoint to several posts. Rather than quote them all I went on with my counterpoints.."
Maybe I should clarify by saying I don't consider, and did not intend the term "rant" to be negative - but mearly to discribe a lengthy, impassioned message.
As for the "luxury" brands I agree there too. I have had more problems, and more serious problems, with nine pieces of BLI/PCM than I have had with 40 pieces of Bachmann - imagine that?
I wasn't arguing that some, who have funds, may indeed pick up their multi packs. You could be right more than I am wrong. I'm glad you can afford to buy in bulk.
I t does seem that many more people are on a budget or have to pass it by the "CFO' before such a purchase.
Me, I have a tight budget to work with {retired on disability}, and test out only one at a time, tehn buy another if i like, save the time I bought aBachmann DCC OnBoard B&O FtA and FTB unit at the same time sight unseen online {afraid I wouldn't get the B if I waited to long. though I think B's hang around more maybe than A's??.} I can't afford $1200 for a 6 spread of locos all at once....that's nearly 7 months of payments on my new-to-me '06 minivan. I'd rather be 6 months ahead on it than have six locos, I think {already ahead-the next payment I mail out is May 2011 at teh middle of this month}
I bought a "DCC ready" Athearn Gp35 I did not like at all. SO I never bought another. I hope Bachmann comes out with one. {they do make them in B&O and CSx, I was looking for Chessie, but will settle I think for the CSX. only about $45}
We all will do what we will do, true.
Hey, at least we have had some go back-and-forth in inteligent converstaion over the topic{s}, which can be interesting on this forum.
WOuld like to see more smaller steamers that were produced in the real world. A challenger or big boy {even the real one static at Steamtown doesn't really impress me}, or other articualted have had their novelty runs, now lets get back to the business of producing real multi-produced numbers of smaller or USRA steamers. I bet they could make a mint, and peope would actualy make them work on their pikes, not sit in some show case, just to say "I have one". Give me a PRR heavy mountain anytime {most of which they promised on preorder but never produced}.
Thanks, Sheldon, for the stimulating conversations.
One more important point, while I agree not everyone, likely not even a majority of modelers can afford to buy in such quanitities on a consistant basis, but there are a great number of modelers, in their prime earning years, building their "dream layout" basement filling empires.
People not familiar with the hobby are amazed when they see my 800 sq ft layout space (layout currently undergoing rebuilding) and then I tell them that I know, or know of, several dozen people within a fifteen minute drive with similar sized or larger layouts. Not to mention all the ones with "bedroom" sized layouts, easily three times that number.
Maybe we are just lucky here, I have been told that. And, based on NMRA memberships the Mid Atlantic does seem to be model railroad heaven. But we do have lots of modelers around here and many have large layouts.
And, I agree, it has been an informative and stimulating converstation.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Galaxy, People not familiar with the hobby are amazed when they see my 800 sq ft layout space (layout currently undergoing rebuilding) and then I tell them that I know, or know of, several dozen people within a fifteen minute drive with similar sized or larger layouts. Not to mention all the ones with "bedroom" sized layouts, easily three times that number. And, I agree, it has been an informative and stimulating converstation.
He he, an 800 sq foot layout? that is about the size of my entire trailer {930sqft}. I am fortunate enough to have a small bedroom that has my 3.5 FOOT x 5.1 FOOt HO scale {mini} layout! and I am, of course, thrilled to have it! I hope to expand it this summer a bit to 4'x 5.5 feet if my ideas work in that space. First must get rid of stuff that is extra i that room and has no place to be. Time to throw out or donate stuff. THAT would be another reason I don't quite need "six of those, a half dozen of these " in locos. Yet.
We do also run a under the table top tree layout at Xmas that is 42"x42" and has a loop of HO and two loops of N scale. My Other Half is into trains as well- Nscale, and only gets to play for the month or so we put up the tree layout {Thanks giving to Orthodox Xmas on the 7th-8th of January. This year we are working on a new one so we will leave up longer to work on it.
We do hope within the next 5 years to have the where-with-all to buy a model space witha house covering it so we both can have at least a 4x8 of our choosing. A 4x8 rihgt now to me would seem huge! It won't be a grand house, and must be a ranch for me and my cane with the only steps to the basment to the layouts!
Enjoy your day!
we would not have this problem if MDC/Roundhouse didnt sell and kept in the steam kit business.
No, someone somewhere had to think profit motive and think about their own pocket than the modeler's wants.
dinwitty we would not have this problem if MDC/Roundhouse didnt sell and kept in the steam kit business. No, someone somewhere had to think profit motive and think about their own pocket than the modeler's wants.
Model railroad manufacturers NEED to make money like anyone else - Who pays your bills? All good business men are interested in their customers wants/needs, but they don't always have access to that information and they seldom have endless resources to "test the waters", but it should would be nice if a few would at least stick their toe in.
Clearly if there was still a market for kits of that nature Bowser and MDC (now part of Athearn) would both still be making them.
Frankly, both of those lines of kits needed some updating in terms of detail and operational features - that might have kept them in the game, but may have been too costly or risky. While both Bowser and MDC kits were reasonably prototypically correct, they lacked the level of detail and accuracy most/many modelers expect today.
Mantua stopped kits years ago in favor of RTR. It seems few modelers today are interested in building loco kits. And I will admit that while I built a number of loco kits years ago, unless they have good detail, I'm just not interested in all the additional work of filing off the poor detail, rounding up the needed parts, etc.
NOW, if someone came out with "Spectrum" type loco in a kit or "semi kit", even at the same price as RTR, I would be interested. It would allow the kind of kit bashing I do now but would invlove less work.
Imagine this, a ready to go rollng chassis with a kit for the boiler and tender - with optional details for several prototypes - sell it without DCC, but design it DCC/sound ready. I still think this could be done at the right price.
I know the first one that could be offered - the Bachmann 2-8-4 could be sold with the boiler disassembled, all the different domes, pilots, cabs included, and in two versions, one with the C&O tender, one with the NKP tender. This would allow assembly into every variation of C&O, NKP and PM 2-8-4 that existed, and with a few extra parts and maybe an extra tender shell, could cover the Virginian, RF&P, L&N and maybe others.
Such a loco would be a hit with freelancers and modelers of these less popular lines who now either have to buy RTR locos and rework them of buy expensive brass, if it exists. And it would allow modelers of the "popular lines" to easily model all/any versions of their prototypes.
Granted this is not exactly a small loco, but just an example based on something out there right now.
The potential for a Pacific, Atlantic or Ten Wheeler based on such a concept seems unlimited.
Mr. Riley are you listening?
So if I'm a manufacturer, I'm not supposed to sell my business because it inconveniences you? I'm not allowed to retire, go into another line of endeavour, or simply because I want to get out of the business for whatever reason and someone's made a decent offer for the business?
Here's an idea. You buy the business and keep everything as it was. You risk your money. You deal with the constant complaints from people who are approaching the point where they're not just demanding it cheaper and better, they're practically demanding that you pay them to take your inventory off your hands and, BTW, the quality better be that of a Rolex watch.
As a radio announcer (whose name escapes me at the moment) once said, "If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own".
Andre
I guess I should have qualified my "pre-order" statement a bit, as I ordered my first two DCC sound loco's that way... the first one came in "pronto", and the second I had to wait an additional 6 months past the delivery date. Later I pre-ordered a 4-8-4, and after it went past the year mark... I called and cancelled my order. (I tracked it just for grins, and it was finally cancelled and never was produced!) That ended my willingness to pre-order..... however, if someone offered (pre-order) a Pacific, or a Mogul of at least the quality level of a Bachmann Spectrum or Proto.... you better believe I'd jump on it min a heartbeat !!! "That's my story and I'm stickin' to it !!!" LOL
Bob
I have
1 0-8-0 C class
3 0-6-0T
4 2-8-0 Consolodations
and a couple 0-4-0T Docksides that I tried to salvage into one working unit.
How isn't there a market again?
But then again I'm still waiting for 2-8-2, 4-8-4, 4-6-2, 4-6-4 (L class)and 2-8-8-2 H-7's for the C&O
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I'm the same, I have Bachmann: 4 2-8-0s, and 5 4-6-0's. Proto 2000, 2 0-6-0, 2 brass 2-8-0, and 2-brass 4-6-0 on my layout. This is WAY more than I need for operational purposes. LOL. This doesn't count the 2-8-2s and 4-6-2s sitting storage from my previous B&O layout. I usually buy engines 2-4 at a time. I don't buy the argument that there isn't a market.
Blackstone thinks there is a market for a D&RGW C-19 2-8-0 in HOn3. I really believe that a Harriman 2-8-0 or 4-6-0 with sound and DCC built to modern standards would sell. Make mine with Vanderbilt tenders and undecorated please. - Nevin
IronGoat I guess I should have qualified my "pre-order" statement a bit, as I ordered my first two DCC sound loco's that way... the first one came in "pronto", and the second I had to wait an additional 6 months past the delivery date. Later I pre-ordered a 4-8-4, and after it went past the year mark... I called and cancelled my order. (I tracked it just for grins, and it was finally cancelled and never was produced!) That ended my willingness to pre-order..... however, if someone offered (pre-order) a Pacific, or a Mogul of at least the quality level of a Bachmann Spectrum or Proto.... you better believe I'd jump on it min a heartbeat !!! "That's my story and I'm stickin' to it !!!" LOL Bob
That, however, would harken to my point when I said:
"The problem with pre-orders is that people have become disenchanted with the process, so it may actually defeat the purpose fo finding out "if there is a market for small steam". WHy? people are tired of pre-ordering something they have to wait a year, a year and a half, or two years for IF it is produced; They want it now, not later; there were many disagreements over hobbby shops and e-tailers charging credit cards when the order was placed as opposed to when the product actually shipped, so many people stopped pre-orders with this pre-payment system for something that may have production actually cancelled; many were pre-ordering based on a 6 month to a year production schedule, but cancelling when that schedule got shoved off another 6 months or another year and cancelled their orders.; Pre-orders not coming up "to muster" in "sufficient quantities" were production cancelled by manufacurers; nad no see it, smell it touch it, taste it on-the-shelf varieties were produced for those who wanted to look first adn see if they wanted to buy it. You want to see a car on the lot before you order one from the dealer, right? not order one sight unseen with an unknown promise of maybe a delivery date inthe future..."
Sounds ike you, too, in your example became disenchanted with the process. The process would work IF: people actually bought what they pre-orderd and didn't cancell; and IF manufactureres could speed up time to get the delivery in a reasonable, say, 6 months time frame; and IF manufactureres wouldn't cancell their manufacture of an item; and further if a manufacturer could produce a "few more for the shelves" for those who see them later, have bought one and liked it and/or sees it then and buys it.
They need to make profits, understood, and an effort to sell all you manufacture to maximize profit would be great, BUT DELIVER WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE, ON TIME, IN A TIMELY FASHION. After all, there are hundred of BB's out there showing up NIB at train shows that someone bought and thought they could sell that haven't sold, but Athearn actually sold those BB and ideally made a profit to someone who now sits on them. Perhaps they made way too many.
Perhaps Bachmann will fulfill your needs {and that of others} and come out with a Spectrum mogul or Pacific that would satisfy the market, and do it without the pre-order-only-we-will-manufacture-it-only-if-we-get-enough-pre-orders-from-modelers-who-will-pay-our-high-price-of-MSRP-at-the-time-of-pre-order. And leave a few thousand to go on the shelves, too. A good Pacific, but not the K4, would be good, but which model{s} do you choose? WHich will sell? Which liveries?
I think eventually here we will get around to having what the small steam needs are met. The "novelty" of the articulateds and BigBoys" is wearing off, and people want to get down to real MRRing. TO fill that void, the first manufacturer to take teh time and money and do it right will meet teh needs, and make a profit, after all they can make no profit if they don't produce any product just cause there weren't "enough pre-orders from those who will buy them up front at our inflacted MSRp". ANd only so many chinese manufacturers can switch from tooling to make trains to make more washing machines!
Now, watch, I will bet Bachmann, in its standard line, or in the SPectrum line, will be amongst those who will fulfill the needs of smaller quality steam and USRA steam! AND make them available on the shelves in a price point that will satisfy customers. And many will disregard them becasue tehy aren't teh BLIs and MTHs of the train world.
Or maybe we should all get together, sell shares of stock in an American model train manufacturing company and build what we all demand for on our own? I'll buy 5 shares at a buck each to get started!
What profit motive? You have proof that it was profit motive that got them to sell?
How about the merely material issue of sheer age of the owner? You want him to be doing this when he is close to 90 yr old? Poor health? Bad kidneys?
I have NO idea what led them to sell but I do know one thing...assuming greed as the only prime motivator is cynical to say the least...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/