UP 4-12-2 Sheldon-- You're singling out the first MTH HO steamer, which performed notably worse than the more recent ones in DC mode as being representative of all. Even with the K-4's, my dealer says they released an upgraded version that sucks less voltage, etc. Try a new MTH engine on a real layout before you bash them. I can run Atlas, Athearn, anything with the same MRC 6200 power supply--and they all run just fine. The voltage is just a number. So what. John
Sheldon--
You're singling out the first MTH HO steamer, which performed notably worse than the more recent ones in DC mode as being representative of all. Even with the K-4's, my dealer says they released an upgraded version that sucks less voltage, etc.
Try a new MTH engine on a real layout before you bash them.
I can run Atlas, Athearn, anything with the same MRC 6200 power supply--and they all run just fine. The voltage is just a number. So what.
John
And every review in the model press of every MTH loco has politely made note of their low top speed on normal established DC voltages.
And, keep in mind, my self esteem is not invested in your opinion of me or my layout.
But that's what people do when they can't win with facts, the personal attacks begin.
Fact still remains that there is not one MTH HO loco for sale right now that would perform satisfactoraly on my layout right now, BUT every other manufacturer in this business has products that will.
Sheldon
UP 4-12-2 Many Athearn (and other) engines, especially those with sound--require 14 volts or 16 volts to run in DC mode. I've owned plenty of Athearn Genesis, BLI, P2K, Atlas engines that needed more than 12 volts to run 60 mph if they had sound. Fact: According the RPN review of the Athearn Big Boy, in DC mode it will do 80.6 smph at 16 volts. It quite obviously is not designed to be limited to 12 or 14 volts.
Many Athearn (and other) engines, especially those with sound--require 14 volts or 16 volts to run in DC mode. I've owned plenty of Athearn Genesis, BLI, P2K, Atlas engines that needed more than 12 volts to run 60 mph if they had sound.
Fact: According the RPN review of the Athearn Big Boy, in DC mode it will do 80.6 smph at 16 volts. It quite obviously is not designed to be limited to 12 or 14 volts.
John, the point you miss is those other locos are available without decoders and sound, two things not found on my layout. Athearn sells their locos both ways, as does Atlas, P2K, Intermountain. Bachmann and BLI BlueLine have DC jumpers included.
And if BLI makes up their mind to sell only expensive decoder/sound equiped locos, I'll begin complaining about them again too.
I have not seen ONE dual mode sound decoder equiped loco who's DC performence is acceptable, they are all a joke.
If MTH releases more Pennsy engines, I'll consider buying their product again, I think with their latest NYC streamliners, they've really made a break through into HO, I can't say I have ever had so much fun running a loco, and thats what this hobby should be about, having fun.
The Empire State Express is state of the art, it can't really be compared at all to their first offering, the K4 which after owning one I can say was generally a big let down.
Concerning sound, I forgot to say that MTH is the excpetion, I could listen to that ESE chuff and whistle all day, it has such a beauty to it, much better than even QSI, now if only they could get rid of that darn crew chatter..
With my MRC prodigy advanced, it doesn't matter which buttons I pressed, the talking rarely seemed to stop.
Overall, an absolutely beautiful engine, will always have some regrets about selling mine, but what can I say, for my Pennsy project, I needed the money, and I'm no millionaire. Hey MTH, how about an S1?
I have refused to buy any MTH locomotive!
Not because of the lawyers, not because of the DCS, not because of their sound system, not because of their possible problems with DCC and not because of any other reason other than they are just too large and too modern for my layout. If they come out with a small WW I era slide valve 2-8-0 or a Harriman 4-6-0 then I will buy 3-4 of each. A V&T 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 and I'll buy 5 of them!
I've written them suggesting a small steam engine, and they do make them in O scale, but so far no success. - Nevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have not seen ONE dual mode sound decoder equiped loco who's DC performence is acceptable, they are all a joke. Sheldon
Never tried the P2K Alco RS-27 with the sound, huh?
In my opinion, it's fantastic, and runs as well as the plain DC version. I've owned both, and my older son still has one Soo Line unit. (We replaced all other diesels with steam--that is no reflection on the outstanding quality of some late P2K diesels).
I guess that must be a loco you "just don't need" as well?
BTW, just what was it I said that you are perceiving as a personal attack??? Having been on the Atlas forum, I try to avoid personal attacks, and if you think I'm attacking you, well, I am truly sorry.
CAZEPHYRUp until BLI introduced the first Zephyr train, most complete passenger trains had to be purchased in brass.
UP 4-12-2Try a new MTH engine on a real layout before you bash them.
Sounds like a personal attack to me.
UP 4-12-2Never tried the P2K Alco RS-27 with the sound, huh?
UP 4-12-2I guess that must be a loco you "just don't need" as well?
No I have not tried that one, and yes it also of no interest since it is outside my modeled era and not unsed by any roads I model.
John, I have long ago given up on onboard sound, for reasons I have explained on this forum too many times.
The manufacturers who continue to make both silent DC locos as well as DCC/sound locos will continue to get my money.
I have even removed a few decoders/sound systems from locos obtained at the right price.
I quess I'm not a "real" modeler or don't have a "real" layout since I don't use DCC and don't want onboard sound.
And, i'm nor a collector, I've never owned a NKP Berk, Big Boy, FEF, GS4, GG1, etc,etc,etc.
That's fine,
Hmm. They have a picture of their engine with the "remote opened" coupler.. Hmm, Bet it's a fluke, but...
You know what? I mght just be willing to try an MTH DC engine. With the Sd70s, Athearn will proably be the first pick, because I can't put a tsunami into an MTH for any cheaper than I can buy an Athearn Genesis. (Both have the same MSRP for DC, the Atheanr is 289 with sound, and I think the tsu decoder is about 120) But, if Athearn ends up not doing the 4141, which while odd, I have seen no mention of it, I would be willing to test run an MTH version. And who knows, maybe we can get the Little Joes in DCC ready. I'm not crazy about the lawsuits, and I doubt they'll ever be the first pick, but mechanically, the DCS was the only thing I couldn't stand.
Sound can use 8 pins, I saw that in another post. SOundtraxx for one is. For me, I like sound. Yes, one can tell that it isn't right, or coming from the tender, but when going over a crossing, seeing the lights and hearing a bell, I miss the whistle, it's that one last piece to at least suggest reality. It's a scale model. The plastic people aren't right either, but you miss them if they aren't there. Yes, a lot of peeples don't like or want sound, and that's just dandy. For this poster however, it's in a similar category.
And also, the Tsunami Diesels are INCREDIBLE. If you can get around finding the speaker on the model, the sounds are accurate, and crisp.
-Morgan
I realize that sound can be in 8 pin, but it usually involves a speaker directly connected to the board. With the SD70 there is the track pick up, front light, rear light, 2 ditch lights, front and rear coupler, and speaker. That means that to be fully dcc compatible, an 8 pin decoder won't do unless it's supplemental like in the BLI.
By the way today I picked up a second SD70Ace and intend on upgrading it to a Tsunami. I am also a little annoyed that on the box they still advertise that the unit has a cab light when it doesn't.
Springfield PA
The "try one on a real layout" remark was not intended to be an insult or a slam/put down against you.
I'm not that kind of guy. I may disagree with you, but my purpose is not to put you down. Been through that on the Atlas forum...If I offended you, I'm sorry, and I'm apologizing here so everyone can see (what's there to hide anyway?).
The point(s) I was trying to make are that:
A. You chose the MTH K-4--the first and admittedly worst performing HO engine they've released, and appeared (to me) to generalize that ALL their engines performed as it does, which is just simply not the case. It's been something like 5 years since it came out, and an awful lot has changed since then. That's all I was trying to say. The K-4 is hardly representative of their current products. My favorite store told me I would not like it and steered me toward something else instead. I ran one last year, and yes, agreed with their assessment.
B. Trying models on a store layout is not always the best indicator of "real world" performance. It is best to try them on a "real" layout--ie one that is not in a store--preferably a friend's layout if yours does not happen to be up and running. Hopefully you can find a friend or acquaintance who has the model in question that will let you try it? Many times models run fantastically well in the store on an often flat layout--but at home or on a "real world" layout is where the issues with track kinks, grade breaks, horizontal/vertical clearance appear.
C. I never said that those who don't have DCC or sound are not "real" modelers. I myself do not use dcc and find it an unnecessary expense when I have a railroad consisting of entirely power routing turnouts. I only use DCS like I used the BLI DC Master--to get the sounds out of that manufacturers' engines. I actually resent having to pay more for DCC compatible or DCC equipped engines (when the plain janes are sold out).
I was firmly in the "sound is not necessary" camp until my boys came along. After sampling some of the fantastic sound equipped engines now coming on the market--that also offer the illuminated class lights, numberboards, backup lights etc. that I always wanted--well I can't really imagine wanting to go back to "plain jane" engines. But I'm not here to insult those who like them. To me, the added features like sound and lights and smoke do so much to make the model "seem" more like the real thing.
A lady in the gym's daycare said to her 4 year old son "You don't want to play with Thomas Trains--they're for babies". Two weeks later my oldest son (5 at the time) stopped playing with ALL his trains--Thomas or otherwise. If having the smoke, sound, lights captivates my youngest son and keeps him in the hobby awhile longer, then I'm all for it. That's why I'm paying nearly $500 per engine when I could buy "plain janes" for much less--to hope he retains the interest and joy of model trains that he now has. He won't be able to say we didn't run good stuff.
Now back to the regularly scheduled thread regarding how well MTH listens--or does not--to its customers.
Have a good weekend everybody.
wjstix BTW, jecorbett, the MTH streamlined Hudsons I've seen in their pics have the tender stripe way too high. I don't know if this is to match their passenger cars (which I presume like most model passenger cars, sit too high up on their trucks) or what, but it sure doesn't look right to me.
BTW, jecorbett, the MTH streamlined Hudsons I've seen in their pics have the tender stripe way too high. I don't know if this is to match their passenger cars (which I presume like most model passenger cars, sit too high up on their trucks) or what, but it sure doesn't look right to me.
I'm sure I would have never known that if you hadn't told me and now that I know, it is so unimportant. I don't fret about the small stuff. It's still better than the stripe on BLI's Dreyfus which is non-existent since the loco is non-existent. I don't care if BLI ever delivers their Dreyfus to market because I am never going to buy it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And how many volts are you blasting it with? If the SD70 runs at any reasonable speed on 12 volts, its a first for MTH. HO trains have aways run on 12-14 volts, not the 18 or more that MTH locos require on DC.
And how many volts are you blasting it with? If the SD70 runs at any reasonable speed on 12 volts, its a first for MTH. HO trains have aways run on 12-14 volts, not the 18 or more that MTH locos require on DC.
Russell
Sheldon, the high voltage requirements are for the ones with the DCS sound decoders in them operating on DC. Like other sound decoders used on DC, there is the huge starting voltage requirement (to get enough juice to the decoder so the stationary sounds work without the loco moving) and then apparantly greater losses in the MTH decoder so you need 16V or more to get 12V to the motor. Now these new ones with NO decoder whatsoever will have the motor connected right to the track pickups (or possibly via a standard diode constant lighting circuit like just about every other DC loco these days), and shoudl work just fine on 'standard' DC controls. If they have capacitors like Bachmann they will probably need to be removed, like Bachmann, to operate on PWM power.
That said, they still don't make anything I want so I won't be buying any. But should they actually make something I'd want I'd now consider it because I can install a standard DCC decoder and not deal with the DCS differences. In short, this announcement has changed my stance from a "no way" to "now a possibility".
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
John:
Just a question out of curiosity--how does that 4-12-2 of yours pull? Reason I ask, is that I just read the review of the locomotive in MR News, and it showed a photo of the locomotive with the boiler off--everywhere there should have been weight--at least to my thinking--it was all taken up with electronics. Does the cast boiler shell have adequate weight in it to allow it to pull well without the traction tires?
Just curious.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
UP 4-12-2B. Trying models on a store layout is not always the best indicator of "real world" performance. It is best to try them on a "real" layout--ie one that is not in a store--preferably a friend's layout if yours does not happen to be up and running. Hopefully you can find a friend or acquaintance who has the model in question that will let you try it? Many times models run fantastically well in the store on an often flat layout--but at home or on a "real world" layout is where the issues with track kinks, grade breaks, horizontal/vertical clearance appear.
I never implied or said I "tried" any of these locomotives on a store layout - you assumed that.
UP 4-12-2 I was firmly in the "sound is not necessary" camp until my boys came along. After sampling some of the fantastic sound equipped engines now coming on the market--that also offer the illuminated class lights, numberboards, backup lights etc. that I always wanted--well I can't really imagine wanting to go back to "plain jane" engines. But I'm not here to insult those who like them. To me, the added features like sound and lights and smoke do so much to make the model "seem" more like the real thing. A lady in the gym's daycare said to her 4 year old son "You don't want to play with Thomas Trains--they're for babies". Two weeks later my oldest son (5 at the time) stopped playing with ALL his trains--Thomas or otherwise. If having the smoke, sound, lights captivates my youngest son and keeps him in the hobby awhile longer, then I'm all for it. That's why I'm paying nearly $500 per engine when I could buy "plain janes" for much less--to hope he retains the interest and joy of model trains that he now has. He won't be able to say we didn't run good stuff.
But again you assumed that sound and/or DCC and/or working class lights and/or station announcements were of value to me in the position you took defending MTH. So you didn't really understand my position before you started telling me how wrong I was.
You are welcome to buy whatever you like, for whatever reasons, but when a company like MTH snubs its nose at me as a customer, I have every right to say why I don't like them or their products.
By arrogantly refusing to offer products compatible with long standing industry standards, they are making the statement that my money is not good enough for them. Fine, I'll spend it elsewhere.
As for sound, obviously you were not reading this forum one of the many times I explained my view. I love sound in the larger scales. BUT in HO or smaller, being trained in HiFi speaker system design and being a HiFi buff, I find it just anoying noise. It lack depth, bass, balance, etc,etc,. A nine transistor radio stuck between stations sound about as much like a locomotive to me as most of the sound systems I have heard. And I have heard quite a few since many in my local modeling group are big into DCC and sound. And, I have been around this hobby a while, been modeling for 40 years, worked in this business and was a train dept manager in the Modeltronics days.
I'm glad your having fun with your children. My modeling has no such agenda. My children are all grown.
Happy to have quiet trains that run on DC. Just finished ditching the sound systems and decoders in two BLI Heavy Mikados, and adding Bachmann long haul tenders, and painting them for my railroad, adding/changing some details - you know - modeling.
rrinker Sheldon, the high voltage requirements are for the ones with the DCS sound decoders in them operating on DC. Like other sound decoders used on DC, there is the huge starting voltage requirement (to get enough juice to the decoder so the stationary sounds work without the loco moving) and then apparantly greater losses in the MTH decoder so you need 16V or more to get 12V to the motor. Now these new ones with NO decoder whatsoever will have the motor connected right to the track pickups (or possibly via a standard diode constant lighting circuit like just about every other DC loco these days), and shoudl work just fine on 'standard' DC controls. If they have capacitors like Bachmann they will probably need to be removed, like Bachmann, to operate on PWM power. That said, they still don't make anything I want so I won't be buying any. But should they actually make something I'd want I'd now consider it because I can install a standard DCC decoder and not deal with the DCS differences. In short, this announcement has changed my stance from a "no way" to "now a possibility". --Randy
Randy, I know all this - so what? If they offered DC versions, how the DCC/DCS versions run on DC would be moot point. But at the prices they are asking, I'm not ripping out any decoders or speakers.
I do that to BLI products if I get them really cheap, but MTH prices are over the top for all that.
Not to mention their choice of products I have no interest in......
....and they make dummys too, for $169!!! Too late, Mike I already ordered my Genesii.
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
twhite John: Just a question out of curiosity--how does that 4-12-2 of yours pull? Reason I ask, is that I just read the review of the locomotive in MR News, and it showed a photo of the locomotive with the boiler off--everywhere there should have been weight--at least to my thinking--it was all taken up with electronics. Does the cast boiler shell have adequate weight in it to allow it to pull well without the traction tires? Just curious. Tom
Hi Tom--and thank you for some good questions!
First, I must honestly admit that I cleaned house with my entire roster during 2009--that's how I'm affording MTH steamers--I sold nearly everything else including all my freight cars and most engines on Ebay and started over from scratch with Tangent Scale Models, Exactrail, and other "better" quality freight cars (perhaps not everyone will agree with me there regarding "better").
I have read every review of the 4-12-2 I could get my hands on--and the one in MRN is pretty good and brutally honest regarding the things they liked and disliked. Their only outright "mistake" that I found is that the operating radius when locked rigid is 42" and not the 54" that they quoted. They did nitpick the cab backhead being back 1' too far--but I don't know if MTH was intending to model the later, modified cab, or if they were just trying to find space for a big motor--perhaps the latter.
One of the product reviews stated both the MTH/former Lionel Challenger and the 4-12-2 are good heavy engines "over 2 pounds in weight". They do not feel heavy enough to have been cast in lead; I'm assuming the boilers are most likely zinc or a zinc alloy (but I do not know for sure).
According to the review in MR, the MTH 4-12-2 had enough tractive effort to pull 150 standard weight free rolling cars on level track (with the traction tires). I don't have anywhere near that many, not even enough to give it a good workout.
According to one of the other reviews I found, when the traction tire equipped driver is replaced with the standard metal wheelset axle, the tractive effort drops to 20% or 30% of what it is with the traction tire. Evidently some folks have complained the models don't pull that much once the traction tires are changed out.
Both my 4-12-2's run very well, though at high speeds like 60 smph there is some motor noise in them. With the DCS they will creep to a stop at 1 smph indicated.
Beware the horizontal clearance is comparable to some articulateds.
Would I love to have 42" radius so I could lock the mechanism from pivoting? Sure--but my wife wanted some of the basement, too.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I never implied or said I "tried" any of these locomotives on a store layout - you assumed that... But again you assumed that sound and/or DCC and/or working class lights and/or station announcements were of value to me in the position you took defending MTH. So you didn't really understand my position before you started telling me how wrong I was. You are welcome to buy whatever you like, for whatever reasons, but when a company like MTH snubs its nose at me as a customer, I have every right to say why I don't like them or their products. Sheldon
I never implied or said I "tried" any of these locomotives on a store layout - you assumed that...
Well, if anything I assumed you had to have tried the MTH K-4 somewhere since you seem to despise its performance in your posts. But if you never actually tried it anywhere, then how is it you know its performance is so bad as you've stated?
I do not know or recall anywhere that I stated you were wrong for not liking the sounds, lights, etc. Though I already read enough of your posts to know that you and I don't agree on a bunch of things, I was posting my opinion and my opinion only, perhaps in counterpoint to yours, but that's it.
Finally--a company has a right to build and sell whatever it is they want to build, does it not? Since when does that mean they are snubbing you or me or anyone else if they do something different from our wishes? If they don't build something you want, buy something else somewhere else that makes you happy, but I just don't understand how that is "snubbing" anyone.
If they honestly believe their system is better, then don't they have a right to try to sell it to those willing to pony up the cash?
As far as being "litigious" (as other folks on other topics or forums have often alleged)--last time I checked MTH has actually won most of their lawsuits or settlements--so that must mean the courts saw legal merit in their arguments. I personally don't care; I just want good trains.
It seems Sheldon and I have such differing viewpoints that we may just have to agree to disagree?
Again, I'm sorry if I offended you, Sheldon. Perhaps I'll not post for awhile and will go run some trains.
UP 4-12-2 Finally--a company has a right to build and sell whatever it is they want to build, does it not? Since when does that mean they are snubbing you or me or anyone else if they do something different from our wishes? If they don't build something you want, buy something else somewhere else, but I just don't understand how that is "snubbing" anyone.
Finally--a company has a right to build and sell whatever it is they want to build, does it not? Since when does that mean they are snubbing you or me or anyone else if they do something different from our wishes? If they don't build something you want, buy something else somewhere else, but I just don't understand how that is "snubbing" anyone.
John, I made a statement, a true and accurate statement about the speed performance of MTH HO locos on DC. Some of their products are better or worse than others in this department, but all have this problem to some degree. Some I have seen run, others I have heard reports from people I know and trust, not just internet gossip. MTH claims DC compatiblity - that is deceptive at best.
MTH has announced one DC/DCC ready locomotive - I raised a simple and valid point based on the past behavior and marketing practices of MTH and its owner Mike Wolf.
I will wait and see.
I have said since MTH entered the HO market that their choice to go only with their control system would be a failed marketing approach - it appears I was right.
It appears to me that while sound and DCC are here to stay, they are a LONG way from taking over the whole market. The offerings of the rest of the industry support this view.
Yes, MTH can make whatever they want, and I am free to share my views on the features or short commings of those products with other potential users. Looks like the market has spoken and Mike was wrong.
No one is a bigger defender of "choice of modeling style" on this forum than me, and if you or your children like sound, station announcements, smoke or whatever, I say go for it. But respecting peoples freedom of choice means respecting those not interested in every new gizmo that comes along as well.
I'm a rebel, free thinker, I don't like stuff just because it is popular or because others say its good. I examine everthing for myself and I choose what's good for me. And, if you ask what or why, I will explain.
I'v'e been at this hobby for 40 years. I know what I like, what is fun for me, what is not, I know what works and what does not. At this point, that does not change with each new product announcement or new tech toy.
I have purposely set a very narrow but somewhat ambitious scope of interest for my modeling. I don't collect, I don't buy stuff that does not fit the plan, I have never "sold off" my stuff to buy different stuff.
I am building a large but relatively simple layout with specific operational and modeling goals. Those goals include prototype or nearly so train lengths, signaling, CTC and ABS operation, specific scenic goals, and staying within a specific era and locale.
Do I "play with trains"? - you bet, but in a specific way - not randomly going from theme to theme or from interest to interest. Many do that and that's fine - I don't.
I run my trains on 13.5 volts maximum DC, controlled by Aristo Craft Train Engneer wireless radio throttles which use pulse width modlated motor control, just like a DCC decoder. It is well doucmented that dual mode decoders from all brands do not preform well on this or any of the similar throttles on the market now or that have been on the market in the past, or have been published for the do it yourself modeler.
But EVERY other manufactuer makes products compatible in some way with advanced DC - except MTH.
And until Mike changes, I will warn others about these problems.
twhiteHey, they lost me when the boiler overhang on their 'non-articulated' 4-12-2 going around a corner was worse than the boiler overhang on my Akane Yellowstone articulated 2-8-8-4's on a 34" radius. I mean, Geez, at least blank some DRIVERS if you want to produce a non-articulated wheelbase that long for 24" minimum, guys! Tom
Hey, they lost me when the boiler overhang on their 'non-articulated' 4-12-2 going around a corner was worse than the boiler overhang on my Akane Yellowstone articulated 2-8-8-4's on a 34" radius. I mean, Geez, at least blank some DRIVERS if you want to produce a non-articulated wheelbase that long for 24" minimum, guys!
I was at a train show last weekend, Tom, and the O scale club had an MTH 4-12-2 running on their modular layout, and only the 1st and fifth driver sets were flanged! I don't think the blind drivers didn't do any of the work, since they could snag the railheads something awful coming out of curves.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrinker Sheldon, the high voltage requirements are for the ones with the DCS sound decoders in them operating on DC. Like other sound decoders used on DC, there is the huge starting voltage requirement (to get enough juice to the decoder so the stationary sounds work without the loco moving) and then apparantly greater losses in the MTH decoder so you need 16V or more to get 12V to the motor. Now these new ones with NO decoder whatsoever will have the motor connected right to the track pickups (or possibly via a standard diode constant lighting circuit like just about every other DC loco these days), and shoudl work just fine on 'standard' DC controls. If they have capacitors like Bachmann they will probably need to be removed, like Bachmann, to operate on PWM power. That said, they still don't make anything I want so I won't be buying any. But should they actually make something I'd want I'd now consider it because I can install a standard DCC decoder and not deal with the DCS differences. In short, this announcement has changed my stance from a "no way" to "now a possibility". --Randy Randy, I know all this - so what? If they offered DC versions, how the DCC/DCS versions run on DC would be moot point. But at the prices they are asking, I'm not ripping out any decoders or speakers. I do that to BLI products if I get them really cheap, but MTH prices are over the top for all that. Not to mention their choice of products I have no interest in...... Sheldon
I think you missed something - that's exactly what this new offering is - a plain DC locomotive with no decoder that needs to be ripped out for those not using DCC/DCS. For a lower price than those with the electronics. My only reason now for not buying anything is they have nothing (currently) that fits my needs. Should they offer something I need/want in the no-DCS electronics version, I would probably buy it. There was no chance I would buy any of their offerings with the DCS electronics.
rrinker I think you missed something - that's exactly what this new offering is - a plain DC locomotive with no decoder that needs to be ripped out for those not using DCC/DCS. For a lower price than those with the electronics. My only reason now for not buying anything is they have nothing (currently) that fits my needs. Should they offer something I need/want in the no-DCS electronics version, I would probably buy it. There was no chance I would buy any of their offerings with the DCS electronics.
I did not miss anything, the whole point of my orignal post in this thread was that I will believe it when I see one run on 12 volts. I don't trust MTH based on previous behavior, so seeing will be believing.
And I agree, I would never buy any of their products with DCS.
Now I they need to do is make something I want and make to run on 12 volts DC.
We will see.