CNJ831 riogrande5761 I"m going to have to agree with Bob on this one CNJ831, I've heard plenty of people extol the virtues of being a "true" model railroader and those folks who rely on RTR stuff these days aren't entitled to call themselves by that moniker. They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby and as my finacee would say to that attitude: bollocks! I am not going to cut down a pine tree to make a box car - I love Bob's colorful examples! =D Quite honestly, if the craftman aspects are totally removed from our hobby (as seems to increasingly be occurring) and replaced completely by a RTR approach, then you have an entirely different hobby. The only facet which both will have in common would be the running of miniature trains. In fact, an HO hobby centered completely around RTR would have a direct line of descent from kids' Lionel/Flyer toy train interests of the 1950's, or perhaps adult Hi-Rail of the era, not the long established HO craftsman's hobby. Let me offer an analogy here. If someone does fine arts painting as a hobby and does it well, he can rightly consider himself an artist. His creative and artistic talents are in the same sense as those of the model railroad craftsman as both are talented creators of a unique end product. Now let's say another guy with no particular abilities visits his local art gallery and purchases a painting to add to his collection. He takes it home and hangs it on his wall. Is it proper that he now consider himself an artist? That's essentially the sort of situation evolving in our hobby today. There is no elitism involved in pointing it out either, it's simply a matter of recognizing the distinct differences that separate the nature of the two pursuits and the titles afforded them. As I've said, both MR and RMC recognized the distinction long ago. CNJ831
riogrande5761 I"m going to have to agree with Bob on this one CNJ831, I've heard plenty of people extol the virtues of being a "true" model railroader and those folks who rely on RTR stuff these days aren't entitled to call themselves by that moniker. They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby and as my finacee would say to that attitude: bollocks! I am not going to cut down a pine tree to make a box car - I love Bob's colorful examples! =D
I"m going to have to agree with Bob on this one CNJ831,
I've heard plenty of people extol the virtues of being a "true" model railroader and those folks who rely on RTR stuff these days aren't entitled to call themselves by that moniker. They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby and as my finacee would say to that attitude: bollocks! I am not going to cut down a pine tree to make a box car - I love Bob's colorful examples! =D
Quite honestly, if the craftman aspects are totally removed from our hobby (as seems to increasingly be occurring) and replaced completely by a RTR approach, then you have an entirely different hobby. The only facet which both will have in common would be the running of miniature trains. In fact, an HO hobby centered completely around RTR would have a direct line of descent from kids' Lionel/Flyer toy train interests of the 1950's, or perhaps adult Hi-Rail of the era, not the long established HO craftsman's hobby.
Let me offer an analogy here. If someone does fine arts painting as a hobby and does it well, he can rightly consider himself an artist. His creative and artistic talents are in the same sense as those of the model railroad craftsman as both are talented creators of a unique end product. Now let's say another guy with no particular abilities visits his local art gallery and purchases a painting to add to his collection. He takes it home and hangs it on his wall. Is it proper that he now consider himself an artist?
That's essentially the sort of situation evolving in our hobby today. There is no elitism involved in pointing it out either, it's simply a matter of recognizing the distinct differences that separate the nature of the two pursuits and the titles afforded them. As I've said, both MR and RMC recognized the distinction long ago.
CNJ831
Craftsman? Or builders of craftmen kit buildings?
IMHO my Dad was among the last true modeler/craftsman..
How many today has the skills needed to build a locomotive from tin or brass stock and Kemtron parts?
My dad's generation could till the coming of the brass steam locomotive.
Then it became a dying skill which is all but forgotten today...
The only modelers that has the right to be haughty about their modeling belongs in my Dad's generation-not ours. no,not by a long shot.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761:
I posted early in this thread, with a bit of sarcasm, and have since just observed with interest the debate.
I have no problem with built ups or ready to run, easy kits, challenging craftsman kits or scratch building. For me personally the hobby includes ALL of these things. Why and when I choose one or the other is a personal choice of resources, time, skills and goals.
I expect others to make different choices based on their different situations.
What I took exception to in the orginal post that prompted my sarcasm was the tone that somehow it was the fault of the product, or the manufacturer, that the OP lacked the skills, or the patience, to complete the kit in a satisfactory manner.
It was not the product's fault - why was the product "blamed"? I have built dozens of such kits with no "problems" at all.
Personally, for ME, a big part of the hobby is about building things, so, a fellow modeler, train enthusiast, collector, who has NO interest in building but only in aquiring and possibly running model trains would soon find little or no common ground for a conversation or social relationship with me regarding the hobby. But that is not a judgement of him, its simply that we would have very little in common.
I would want to talk about my latest kit bashed Bachmann loco, or the undecorated Proto locos I just detailed and painted, or ask him what he's "working on" and he would likely tell me how Bachmann was below his "collector" standards and want to discuss his latest brass, BLI or MTH purchase, which would equally bore me.
We are in a new age where scale modeling can now be done with less "craftsman building" on the part of the modeler. I'm not going to even comment on the merits of that either way - it is what it is.
But built up or kit, expensive or budget priced, don't blame the trains for your own short commings or limitations and don't expect that the industry should cater to only your view of the hobby.
Sheldon
BRAKIE riogrande5761: They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby. ----------------------- Oddly I find this more of a forum thing then in the real world where their actual modeling can be seen. Of course there are guys that back their talk by showing pictures of their models while others talk the talk but,never show picture of their models. I notice those that show and tell seldom seems haughty or a elitist. I suppose they fully understand adding detail parts to a detailed model does not the craftsman make no more then building a craftsman kit makes a craftsman..
If my indifference to those who have no interest in building models makes me "elitist", than guilty as charged. But just remember it is not distain, just indifference.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If my indifference to those who have no interest in building models makes me "elitist", than guilty as charged. But just remember it is not distain, just indifference. Sheldon
It doesn't - don't know why it should.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
[before the curtain drop]
I actually find some of the conversation here rather sad, to be honest. Although I personally like building kits and choose to as much as possible, if someone "chooses" RTR for their layout, that is their prerogative. And I am also perfectly happy to strike up a conversation with and socialize with any MRRer; whichever camp they may fall in.
Why not just let folks enjoy MRRing however they choose to - even if it's different from your own proclivity - and let's leave the high horse in the stables where it belongs. Okay...now where did I put my X-acto knife?...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.