selectorNice engines, CZ...I knew you'd come through. The last image of the front end pretty much addresses the original quesion for the thread. -Crandell
Nice engines, CZ...I knew you'd come through. The last image of the front end pretty much addresses the original quesion for the thread.
-Crandell
Thanks. The detail certainly makes the difference to me. I am looking forward to the BLI Hybrid brass model coming about the first of the year or so and have two of those reserved. The model should be about like the Sunset in detail if it is like the previous hybrid models and should be worth the money with the sound installed. I hope they do a good job of getting the off beat six chuffs correct. It is a great sounding locomotive and is a one of a kind for sound.
CZ
twhite And if my PSC is any indication, current brass runs like a Swiss watch right out of the box. Astonishingly smooth response! No re-balancing or re-weighting needed, thank you. Just hook up the train and crawl it out of the yard. I think
And if my PSC is any indication, current brass runs like a Swiss watch right out of the box. Astonishingly smooth response! No re-balancing or re-weighting needed, thank you. Just hook up the train and crawl it out of the yard.
I think
Tom
I was delighted when PSC started using Bo Rim and other high quality builders for the latest brass models. They seem to be producing great looking and fine running models.
I looked at your Photobucket pictures and the layout looks great. How did that C&O Lima built 2-6-6-6 Allegheny get to the Western portion of the USA???
CAZEPHYR I looked at your Photobucket pictures and the layout looks great. How did that C&O Lima built 2-6-6-6 Allegheny get to the Western portion of the USA??? CZ
I know, they were testing it out, they wanted to see a real locomotive worked in the mountains versus all the Alco and Baldwin trash they owned.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
dti406CAZEPHYR I looked at your Photobucket pictures and the layout looks great. How did that C&O Lima built 2-6-6-6 Allegheny get to the Western portion of the USA??? CZ I know, they were testing it out, they wanted to see a real locomotive worked in the mountains versus all the Alco and Baldwin trash they owned. Rick
As much as I like the Allengheny's and I do, they were retired in 56 and the 1601 was in the museum in 1958 when I visited there in the fall of 58. The DM&IR M3's and M4's ran for two more years. I have a lot of respect for those locomotives built by Baldwin and visited the Duluth museum three years ago. The locomotive is impressive also it operates today by an electric motor when you push a button along with sound. It is impressive. N&W built their own locomotives, but a LIMA when asked why they did not try to sell the N&W steam, was quoted as saying " What could we tell N&W about building steam locomotives".
Just to show you one of my pictures of an H8 in service, look below. They are one of my favorites but ALCO and Baldwin built some very good steam locomotives. Look to the SF 2926 being rebuilt for trips in the next three years.
To re-phase a famous saying by Will Rogers about people:
"I never met a steam locomotive I did not like. "
Being from Ohio and two of my favorite railroads (NKP & DT&I) served the plant in Lima, I am very partial to Lima locomotives. They only reason the C&O Allegheny's did not last as long as the DM&IR Yellowstones is that the C&O embarked on a program to drop steam as soon as possible. They sold brand new Baldwin and Lima 0-8-0's to the N&W and Virginian railways. Theses 0-8-0's became the prototype for the N&W's own S-1a 0-8-0's which was one of the last steam locomotives built by Roanoke.
The story goes the PRR sent a T1 down to Roanoke to see if they could make a locomotive out of it. The N&W sent it back.
dti406Being from Ohio and two of my favorite railroads (NKP & DT&I) served the plant in Lima, I am very partial to Lima locomotives. They only reason the C&O Allegheny's did not last as long as the DM&IR Yellowstones is that the C&O embarked on a program to drop steam as soon as possible. They sold brand new Baldwin and Lima 0-8-0's to the N&W and Virginian railways. Theses 0-8-0's became the prototype for the N&W's own S-1a 0-8-0's which was one of the last steam locomotives built by Roanoke. The story goes the PRR sent a T1 down to Roanoke to see if they could make a locomotive out of it. The N&W sent it back. Rick
The PRR sent both a T1 and a Q2 down to the N&W for evaluation and testing. I believe the PRR owned about 40 percent of the N&W at that time in history. Both were returned in short order and the N&W today owns much of what was the PRR after it went down.
Some of my favorite locomotives were LIMA built.
I got to visit Roanoke in 1956 while they were 100% steam and it was an exciting time to watch the great locomotives they built.
Another favorite locomotive of mine was the PRR J1, which was a copy of the C&O T1 2-10-4. It was probably the best thing that ever happen to the PRR motive power and it was based on a LIMA locomotive.
You will probably enjoy seeing the picture of the 765 in Ohio back in 1983. I got cab rides two days for the trips from Brewster to Toledo.
This is one of my pictures taken on August 6thm 1956 at Roanoke. I can't remember if the switcher was one of the LIMA engines purchased or a home built copy, but they were all over the place that week. Jawn Henry was built by Baldwin as a test locomotive that was built too late for steam to continue. It was very strong but was in pusher service only since it could not run with a train like the A Class could. I certainly am a student of the N&W steam locomotives, having spent several days there. at at time when no diesels were present.
CAZEPHYR twhite And if my PSC is any indication, current brass runs like a Swiss watch right out of the box. Astonishingly smooth response! No re-balancing or re-weighting needed, thank you. Just hook up the train and crawl it out of the yard. I think Tom I was delighted when PSC started using Bo Rim and other high quality builders for the latest brass models. They seem to be producing great looking and fine running models. I looked at your Photobucket pictures and the layout looks great. How did that C&O Lima built 2-6-6-6 Allegheny get to the Western portion of the USA??? That is a great looking long trestle where the picture was taken. CZ CZ
CZ--Thanks for the comments on the layout. It's still "In Process"--what layout isn't?--but I think it's coming along slowly and surely. My friends all tell me that the long viaduct is 'scary.' . Kinda/sorta the effect I was looking for, LOL!
As to the Allegheney--well, I figured that if Rio Grande could lease Missabe Yellowstones every winter during WWII, they might as well see what a 2-6-6-6 would do out here in the wild west, also. Its one of my very few non-brass steamers, a 1st run Rivarossi, and it's a very nicely detailed, VERY sweet runner. I always thought the Allegheny was a particularly handsome articulated (I kind of like C&O steam power, anyway--very business-like looking) The traction tires came off about 6 months after I got it, and it still pulls like a team of oxen. It's one of two C&O "Lend-Leasers", the other is a nifty little 2-6-6-2 from Spectrum.
As to the Lima/Baldwin/ALCO issue--I'm with you. I think all three manufacturers put out some incredibly spectacular examples of beautiful looking, beautiful running steamers.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Great pics, CZ. And I too am a huge fan of the PRR J1, its my favorite pennsy freight loco of all time.
Any brass people out there that model New Haven?
BLI made this. Listed at $1,200
What do you think?
rjake4454Great pics, CZ. And I too am a huge fan of the PRR J1, its my favorite pennsy freight loco of all time. Any brass people out there that model New Haven? BLI made this. Listed at $1,200 What do you think?
rjake4454
I think it is a great looking locomotive. I purchased the Hybrid version which has a little less detail, but is impressive. The hybrid is brass also since BLI did not receive a sufficient amount of orders to do the die cast metal version. It was a bargain for the price.
Speaking of impressive, the PRR J1's always put on a great show and we got to get up in the cab of several while they were being serviced at Effingham Illinois.
Brass has always offered a higher level of detail than has been offered by other manufacturers. Also a wider variety of prototype railroad models, even one of a kinds. Brass diesels were never at the level of their steam counterparts. I do feel that current diesel model manufacturers surpassed their brass counterparts about 20 years ago.
The current trend is sound and DCC in locomotives. The sound in HO isn't that great, and DCC still lags far behind DC control, dispite what the magazines and manufacturers tout. Do I like brass? Yes! Is its fidelity better? I think so! Would I spend the money for brass over a cheeper model with sound and or DCC? Definately!
CZ,
Definately, at my LHS I picked up the Hybrid version, the heft was really nice, however the store owner ran it on the test track which has nothing but 18" radius curves. It jerked stalled like crazy, can't be good for loco, is it even safe to do that? It got me thinking, whats the best possible radius for say the Hybrid Q2 coming out...I know they say 22" for most locos, but I prefer to run mine on 30, would this be a large enough curve for a hybrid model of that size? I really want this engine, but I want it to look as realistic as possible.
Cass shays Brass has always offered a higher level of detail than has been offered by other manufacturers. Also a wider variety of prototype railroad models, even one of a kinds. Brass diesels were never at the level of their steam counterparts. I do feel that current diesel model manufacturers surpassed their brass counterparts about 20 years ago. The current trend is sound and DCC in locomotives. The sound in HO isn't that great, and DCC still lags far behind DC control, dispite what the magazines and manufacturers tout. Do I like brass? Yes! Is its fidelity better? I think so! Would I spend the money for brass over a cheeper model with sound and or DCC? Definately!
Thanks for your input. Personally I think the sounds of BLI are beautiful. But I see your point, sometimes it feels more realistic to run them without sound, particularly with diesels in HO.
Concerning DCC, I have mixed feelings about. When it works, its fantastic, far better than DC in my opinion. But MRC Prodigy Advanced isn't the most reliable system I have found, however its very easy to hook up compared to other brands, at least thats what my LHS tells me. They strongly condemn Digitrax, I'm not sure why, but they told me never to buy anything digitrax. They push for Prodigy Advanced all the time.
My brother used to run DC, now he hates it due to all the complicated wiring he complained about, and running several trains at the same time. With DCC, no more toggle switches, blocks, etc. etc.
With a minimum radius of 30" you should be on the safe side to run any loco available on the market. Brass locos, IMHO, still offer a level of detailed not yet achieved by the mass-produced plastic ones, especially when it comes to steam locos.
Should you be into European outline model railroading, brands like Fleischmann, Roco or Brawa show you what is possible today in terms of detail. However, some of those locos are coming close to brass prices, i.e. $ 800!
rjake4454CZ, Definately, at my LHS I picked up the Hybrid version, the heft was really nice, however the store owner ran it on the test track which has nothing but 18" radius curves. It jerked stalled like crazy, can't be good for loco, is it even safe to do that? It got me thinking, whats the best possible radius for say the Hybrid Q2 coming out...I know they say 22" for most locos, but I prefer to run mine on 30, would this be a large enough curve for a hybrid model of that size? I really want this engine, but I want it to look as realistic as possible.
rjake
The data below is for the brass hybrid Q2. It is listed at 22" or greater radius, but I would think it will do much better on 30" radius. It is a large 10 driver locomotive that has the added length in the rigid wheel base because of the second set of cylinders. It might run on 22" curves but it would not look realistic on that small of radius.
The brass hybrid Hudson probably would have trouble on a 18" radius since it has a fair amount of detail and is built much like a brass chassis. I only test ran mine when I got it, but it runs very well.
Industry-Leading Features OVERVIEW:
Industry-Leading SOUND / OPERATION Features:
rjake4454,I'm a NH fan that buys brass. IMHO, the BLI brass I-5, while a superb looking model, isn't worth the $1200 when compared to the $400 or less "Hybrid" version. It's just not worth 3 times the cost when the Hybrid is so darn good. I have the old NJ/Custom Brass version of the I-5 that I paid $400 unpainted in 1996. I bought the BLI Hybrid for $359 direct from FDT when new, and the BLI just blows the NJ/CB away. At my club, a member has the mid-1990's W&R version of the I-5, and while a beautiful model, it still only has half wheel pick-up. Last I checked, the W&R I-5 was going for $1000 or so. The other version out there is the PSC variant that came out around the same time as the BLI, and it was around $1500, IIRC.I honestly can't think of any good reason why to buy any "all brass" version of the I-5 over the BLI hybrid unless one is obsessed with detail to the Nth degree and have a lot of spare money laying around.
I don't know why that hybrid model you tested didn't run well. I suspect dirty wheels or dirty track. "Jerking" and "stalling" usually has nothing to do with track radius. If the curves are too tight, it should derail, not sputter.I have 30" curves on my layout, and it looks okay to me, but YMMV. Of course, it looks even better on my club 40" curves. The I-5 is a large loco on a small wheelbase, which gives it the ability to tread where 8-coupled locos cannot (just like the real thing...8-coupled locos were banned from most of Boston's South Station because of the #8 switches in the interlocking).The sound out of the BLI I-5 is the same as all the others, really, except for the whistle. They did try to get the real NH I-5's "steamboat" whistle to good effect. I asked them about it at Springfield, MA, and told them about the I-5's whistle recording in the NH WWII movie, "A Great Railroad At Work". They told me that they "knew all about" that film. My guess is that they sampled the movie's soundtrack to get that whistle.Oh, and I'd be careful about any place that says "stay away from anything Digitrax". Last I had heard, Digitrax is the most popular DCC manufacturer in the US & Japanese model railroading markets (Lenz is the most popular in Europe for DCC). They are probably the most popular for a reason. I've been a satisfied Digitrax user for over 10 years, and every Digitrax throttle ever made can work on their newest system. Ask this LHS if MRC can say that...
CAZEPHYR,Interesting about the diecast not being made because of a lack of orders. When I was at Springfield the year that FDT and BLI were taking I-5 pre-orders, and they ran out of "slick" order forms. They had to send a guy to a nearby copy center to make photocopies of their order form. When I talked to them the next year, they said they were "very happy" with the I-5 sales. Hmm... Makes me wonder how many pre-orders do they have to get in order to make a diecast version?What's fascinating to me about the I-5 is that even tho' the NH had 2-10-2's and 4-8-2's, the I-5's were by far the heaviest steam locos on the New Haven, and they were only 4-6-4's! Yikes.Cass shays,"...DCC still lags far behind DC control..." Um, huh? Care to explain that one?
Paul A. Cutler III********************Weather Or No Go New Haven********************
Paul3CAZEPHYR,Interesting about the diecast not being made because of a lack of orders. When I was at Springfield the year that FDT and BLI were taking I-5 pre-orders, and they ran out of "slick" order forms. They had to send a guy to a nearby copy center to make photocopies of their order form. When I talked to them the next year, they said they were "very happy" with the I-5 sales. Hmm... Makes me wonder how many pre-orders do they have to get in order to make a diecast version?What's fascinating to me about the I-5 is that even tho' the NH had 2-10-2's and 4-8-2's, the I-5's were by far the heaviest steam locos on the New Haven, and they were only 4-6-4's! Yikes.Cass shays,"...DCC still lags far behind DC control..." Um, huh? Care to explain that one? Paul A. Cutler III
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul
I agree that the lack of orders has puzzled me also. The market today for model trains pre-orders must be in the 10,000 range for them to expect to make a profit and the hybrid brass market is probably in the 1000 range.
I agree with your assesement of the brass hybrid cost related to the regular brass version. The brass hybrid was a bargain for sure and I noticed BLI did not bring in any brass versions of the NYC Mohawk. That was due to the fact the all brass models have been very slow in sales when the hybrid is so much less money for about the same detail overall.
I have all of the brass hybrids so far, but will skip some of the ones coming in the future since I do not need every one. They are all worth the money and the sound has been good overall. I have reserved the Q2 and the UP 9000 even though I have them in brass. I just could not resist having them with sound and models that could be run on a DCC layout. I don't convert any of my normal brass steam models to DCC since they were built to pick up track voltage on one side only for the loco and tender. All of the DCC built models do pick up power on both sides and do a much better job of running on DCC. The brass models are fine detailed and I always seem to purchase the lastest and greatest detailed models, but they are not designed to run on tight radius curves and not designed in general to run on DCC. That is beginning to change since Sunset has made several models with the sound installed that are brass. The ones I have from Sunset have a less detail than the PSC models, but do run fairly well on DCC. It just goes to prove, you can't have it all.
I would not expect the Hudson's to weight more than the older 2-10-2's, but the Hudson's were much built much later and were a great representative of that class. I have the NH Hudson at 365,300 total lb. Is that what you show for that 4-6-4. I have no data for their 2-10-2's but they could not have been much lighter. Do you know what they weighed?
Thanks
rjake4454Great pics, CZ. And I too am a huge fan of the PRR J1, its my favorite pennsy freight loco of all time.
The J1 was absolutely the best engine the PRR ever owned by my thinking. I watched them many times around Effingham Illinois and saw my last J1 in 1956 on a work train. That was hardly the work they were designed for but at least it was still being used at that time. You could tell a J1 by its voice even a mile away when they started a heavy train west of town.
And to top it off, standing in front of the 6492 being serviced and checking out the detail.
NH locomotive weights from Swanberg's New Haven Power.
NH L-1-c 2-10-2 engine wt. 363,325 lbs (181.66 tons)
NH I-5 4-6-4: engine wt. 365,300 lbs (182.65 tons)
NH R-3 4-8-2 engine wt. 374,000 lbs (187 tons)
NH R-3-a 4-8-2 engine wt. 379,000 lbs (189.5 tons)
NH EP-3 electric wt. 403,500 lbs (201.75 tons)
NH EP-4 electric wt. 432,000 lbs (216 tons)
NH EF-3a electric wt. 493,000 lbs (246.5 tons)
CZ more awesome pics, thanks!
Oops, my bad. Hmm... I know I saw a quote somewhere about the I-5's being the heaviest, but it must have had a disclaimer for the R-3's/R-3a's. Humph. Okay, so other than the R-3 Class, the NH I-5's were the heaviest steam locos on the NH, surpassing L-1's (Santa Fe's), R-1's (USRA Light Mountains), and R-2's (medium sized Mountains).
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Robt. LivingstonNH locomotive weights from Swanberg's New Haven Power. NH L-1-c 2-10-2 engine wt. 363,325 lbs (181.66 tons) NH I-5 4-6-4: engine wt. 365,300 lbs (182.65 tons)NH R-3 4-8-2 engine wt. 374,000 lbs (187 tons) NH R-3-a 4-8-2 engine wt. 379,000 lbs (189.5 tons)NH EP-3 electric wt. 403,500 lbs (201.75 tons)NH EP-4 electric wt. 432,000 lbs (216 tons)NH EF-3a electric wt. 493,000 lbs (246.5 tons)
The streamlining probably added several tons of weight overall. Those 2-10-2's must have been fairly light compared to most 2-10-2's.
For example, the 2800 class 2-10-2's on the Illinois Central are listed total engine weight of 420,389lbs. They were rebuilt USRA heavy 2-10-2 and were called Centrals on the I.C.R.R.