CNJ831This, of course, says nothing about the latest $225-$300+ diesel AB sets and $250-$450+ for individual steam locomotives. Face it, even the tiniest recently issued switchers are commanding upwards of $100 now. Then, too, how about addressing the situation with DPM, Heljan, or California Models structure kits? All have increased 3x to 5x over their 1987 prices, without changing one iota.
I have bought lots of locos in the last 10 years and as recently as a few weeks ago. Intermountain, Proto, Bachmann - The higher end range you quote is bells and whistles - literaly - DCC w/sound. I don't pay those kind of prices - again I refer to my explaination of the distribution network and how it has changed. Only big boys can play and a 20% discount is "built in" to MSRP these days, but it was not always that way.
Did you ever think maybe the cost of production went up for DPM?
Product size has little to do with the cost of production. The guy who puts a front wheel on a Focus makes the same wage as the guy who puts a front wheel on a Town car. Product prices are based on features, quality, and complexity of assembly, not size.
Sheldon
Sheldon said:All of these comments simply ignore my explaination of the wholesale discount structure and change in distribution and marketing of model trains over the last 50-60 years.
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Sheldon,I will be among the first to agree today's discounts is a blessing when it comes to paying full MSRP or that long standing 10% discount that many shops still offer...There is no doubt on line brick and mortar shops has played a major roll in larger discounts then the mail order shops of old since there is more on line competition for our hobby dollar..
What I find odd is one on line shop(send pm if interested) charges full MSRP for Athearn BB kits and offers a discount for the RTR cars..I don't understand the marketing behind that move.
As I said earlier one can not compare today's prices against those of 10-40 years ago since we are talking about 2 or more different eras..
A savvy hobby shop owner will join the modern times and use the Internet as a marketing tool.
Those that would rather blame and cuss the Internet for their lost sales instead of using contemporary marketing strategies will watch his/her shop die a slow death.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Sheldon said:All of these comments simply ignore my explaination of the wholesale discount structure and change in distribution and marketing of model trains over the last 50-60 years. ---------------------------- Sheldon,I will be among the first to agree today's discounts is a blessing when it comes to paying full MSRP or that long standing 10% discount that many shops still offer...There is no doubt on line brick and mortar shops has played a major roll in larger discounts then the mail order shops of old since there is more on line competition for our hobby dollar.. What I find odd is one on line shop(send pm if interested) charges full MSRP for Athearn BB kits and offers a discount for the RTR cars..I don't understand the marketing behind that move. As I said earlier one can not compare today's prices against those of 10-40 years ago since we are talking about 2 or more different eras.. A savvy hobby shop owner will join the modern times and use the Internet as a marketing tool. Those that would rather blame and cuss the Internet for their lost sales instead of using contemporary marketing strategies will watch his/her shop die a slow death.
Larry, I agree with one small exception, being a student of economics, and a business owner most of my life, to me, value is value. Times will change, things do shift, but the value of work at a given skill level does tend to remain similar in value over the LONG HAUL. This has been documented endlessly in the study of economics.
Even having worked in the hobby business, I have no sympathy for retailers who do not change with the times.
As for the retailer you discribe, it reminds me of an old practice from back in the day. In the early days of some discounting, some shops discounted only items over a certain price, or only certain types of items, like locomotives, using lower prices on more expensive items as a draw but keeping their full markup on smaller, slower moving "support" items.
But again, to complain about todays prices, is IMHO, unfounded.
I usually drop in for a bottle of glue or a turnout... but you feel silly writing a check for just $10, so I'll scoop up parts and scratch building supplies until I hit my limit (or more precisely, until my limit hits me!)
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
MMMMM-- dang. If everyone was basically buying MSRP all that time--during the period 1950-1990--until our glorious time when there are sales all over the place then how does one account for all the sales ads in the MR mags from the same era(s)? My father bought all kinds of engines and pieces of rolling stock during the same era( 1965-85) always on sale with the sales discounts between 20-40% at the LHS he went to. Now, if I had been a somewhat more smarter cookie I would have kept a lot more of those dang receipts from back then because there were quite a few that were higher-----but I threw them out----GRRR
BTW, those 'mail order' places were also somebody's LHS back then----unlike the era we now are in
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I go to the LHS when I haven't been there for a while and limit my impulse spending to about $30, whether it be parts, rolling stock, or a general good deal on an item.
As far as prices, which seems to have taken over this thread a bit, I think the manufacturers are taking a key from other industries, like automobiles. Everybody understands the concept of "options" on cars, leather seats, power windoes, navigation, etc. The more "add-ons" the higher the price. Prices for cars are higher now, but you also get AC, power steering, locks and windows, and auto trans standard.
Comparing prices now to prices back in the day is a bit tough since you get more with your purchase than you did back then. Prices may have actually GONE DOWN over time, when comparing apples to apples. A fully loaded Athearn BB, with a better motor, wire grabs, thin handrails, directional lighting, might actually have cost you relatively more money "back in the day" than it does now.
I think hobby manufacturers are trying to force the consumer into buying loaded products, rolling stock, locos, buildings, etc.
The problem is that the choice for buying the stripped down item is rapidly disappearing, leaving me to only buy features that I may not really want, just to get a decent paint job or some detail. Therefore, I feel like the product I really want to buy is more expensive now than in the past because I'm being forced to buy features I don't want. Including the labor expended to assemble the product.
My two cents.
Doug
- Douglas
I have a list,but the items on it are never on sale. I will wait on them,because I won't pay full price.Sometimes I will find a bargain and buy that item instead.I recently went in to my LHS to buy a DVD and saw some HO locos on their sale table.I walked out with a BLI Blue Line Milwaukee Road SD40-2 with sound for $40.00!!!
blownout cylinder MMMMM-- dang. If everyone was basically buying MSRP all that time--during the period 1950-1990--until our glorious time when there are sales all over the place then how does one account for all the sales ads in the MR mags from the same era(s)? My father bought all kinds of engines and pieces of rolling stock during the same era( 1965-85) always on sale with the sales discounts between 20-40% at the LHS he went to. Now, if I had been a somewhat more smarter cookie I would have kept a lot more of those dang receipts from back then because there were quite a few that were higher-----but I threw them out----GRRR BTW, those 'mail order' places were also somebody's LHS back then----unlike the era we now are in
Your dad was lucky to have such a place. Here in the Baltimore area in those days we had one discount shop (still in business and a big mailorder outfit now) located downtown. He sold at 20% off and seldom any lower. All the suburban shops, about 6 total, where all full list except for some 10% club discounts and specials from time to time.
And my knowledge of the greater mid atlantic region was that big well stocked hobby shops like Coor's in DC, Gilbert's in Gettysburg and Mitchell's in Wilmington where all full list every time I visted them. In fact, the one of the three that is still around, is still full list. And the several shops today in Strasburg PA, (not far from me) only discount slightly (10%).
Now all of those suburban shops from then are gone, replaced by only a few that do discount, and all of which are on the net doing mail order.
Impulse? As in going to LHS for abottle of Poly Scale rust and leaving with 2 Walthers 89 footer for $14 each plus numerous detail parts? No. Never.
Impulse. I model the pennsy but they almost sold me a New Haven I-5 today, the thing is just so darn beautiful.
CNJ,Of course mail order places were (& are) cheaper. Overhead was less, allowing them to undercut their competition and still make just as much money.
At no point has anyone said that paying full MSRP was the "only" option at any time in this hobby.
But full MSRP at hobby shops 20 years ago? Sorry, but that was common, at least around Boston. Barring sales and blow outs, Ed's Boxcar in Raynham, MA always charged full list. Norwood Hobbies in Norwood, MA was also full MSRP. Eric Fuch's of Boston (and their mall locations in Attleboro, Nashua, Holyoke, etc.) were all full list. South Shore Hobby Center in Weymouth, MA was full MSRP (unless you were a fellow club member, then you got 10% off). Tucker's Hobbies in Warren, MA charged list prices unless there was a sale. Norton Prototype Hobbies of Norton, MA charged MSRP. And more recently, all those Great American Train Stores were full list, and sometimes more. How do I know? I used to shop at all those locations (other than the GAT Store) before I had my driver's permit.
When I was lad some 20 years ago, the only place to get a discount was in the pages of MR, and then you had to pay S&H and you might get any road name they had after 4-6 weeks. Not that there was much to buy.
Your paragraph about the Trainworld is interesting, but it still doesn't answer the question you were asked: Why are you comparing mail order discount prices from yesterday to the modern full MSRP of today's equipment? That makes no sense. You are comparing apples to oranges. Let me put it this way... Right now, there are Athearn 40' AAR boxcars on eBay for 99 cents, which are far less than any price you've quoted from old MR's from the 1980's. Does that mean I can say that Athearn 40' AAR Boxcars are actually cheaper than they were 20 years ago? Of course not, because eBay isn't MSRP, and it's not a sale it's a bid, plus there's S&H involved (which you still haven't addressed about old Trainworld ads).
I don't know why you don't like the 40' AAR Boxcar for a comparison (except that it blows your ideas out of the water). And you still haven't admitted that you were comparing new RTR model prices vs. kit prices earlier.
But if you want to look at locos, let's look at, say, the Blue Box F7A. IIRC, they changed to the plastic side frames, gold motor, and brass flywheels around 1980-ish. It has remained almost completely unchanged since then. Again using hoseeker.net and the Wayback Machine, here's some prices:
F7A - w/ "Super" weight and flywheels at MSRP -1981: $19.50 1988: $24.00 1991: $26.501998: $33.502001: $33.50
2009 dollars using the BLS inflation calculator -1981: $46.27 1988: $43.76 1991: $41.97 1998: $44.33 2001: $40.80
Today From Horizon's website:2009: $44.98 MSRP
So, adjusted for inflation, the same Athearn F7A that is available today has been between $40 and $47 for the past 28 years.
Of course, you bringing up today's $250-$400 steam prices is laughable since Athearn didn't make steam engines 20 years ago. And the $225-$300 A-B sets are for high-quality Highliner RTR models, not old Athearn BB F-units. IOW, what does that have to do with the price of rice in China? The only way the above makes sense is if your game is to compare discount prices of common unrefined equipment from the 1980's and compare them to full MSRP list prices of high end RR-specific models with sound and DCC installed soit will get you the numbers you want. If you keep up this line of nonsense, then I'll just answer with "Anyone can get models for 99 cents on eBay!" This is why I stick to MSRP. It's a constant. Your ads from MR are not.
BTW, I love the misplaced attack on the WGH. If they did nothing, you'd be yelling at them to do something to increase growth in the hobby. Now that they have, they show they are dooooomed. Sigh. It must be difficult walking around with that storm cloud permanently over your head.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
You mean like this guy?
http://www.lil-abner.com/familyalbum2.html
Andre