Well, as some of you know I'm rebuilding my yard, which was Concord, NH. I was talking with some friends however, and they suggested I combine the classification and staging yards. On the ride home I got thinking about that. Here's my new operations plan for you to critique, the actual yard track plan is coming after that.
The yard will be located in White River Junction, actually across the river in Lebanon, NH. The track to the West will go across the river, and in my plan, trains will just run North on trackage rights bound for Montreal. To the east is my mainline to Concord, NH.
Those who are familier with my layout will note that this is changing a lot, as the yard is on the West end of the modeled section, instead of the Eastern end. Now the modeled trains will head through New Poland first, which used to be the last town before the staging yard. Part of the new yard is located on the former location of the staging yard.
In sessions, any train exiting the West end (bound for Montreal) of the layout out of the yard will reappear as a train from Concord, to the East, and vice versa. There will probably be one mixed train in each direction, and a steady flow of bare-table intermodal trains in one direction. (The loaded cars go a differant route, I'm using modeler's license here because I don't have sufficient funds to buy trailers) The local will still be a turn, running from White River Jct. (I abbreviate it to WRJ) Eastbound (yes, in the opposite direction out of the yard that it used to) to Stude, NH where it runs around on the passing siding and goes back. The pulpwood yard just east of Stude is also served by this train.
I would like to have transfer runs from the other railroads serving WRJ, but I lack staging capacity for these trains west of the yard, unless I carry over the location formerly known as West Concord (where the pulpwood yard is) to the WRJ end of the railroad and add a siding to visibly stage a transfer run from NECR. Remember that my yard is actually Lebanon, but I'll name it WRJ to avoid confusion from people not familier with the geography of the area.
Any comments appreciated!
The DDWH interchange is located in a town on the other side of the backdrop. I'm going to run the tracks through a building, and put other structures and details in front of it to draw eyes away from it. The track doubles as the New Poland (just East of the yard) team track. It is just there so I can plan it out, it can't be moved and doesn't need to be factored in as part of the yard.
The rest of the yard from front to back is:
Mainline
A/D 1
A/D 2
Runaround/switcher pocket
Classification 1
Classification 2
Classification 3/Possible Intermodal track
There are crossovers just East of the yard (the yard lead joins the main track to go over the pass) but none west of it for switcher use. Trains coming from the West can easily come in on either track, courtesy of a pair of crossovers in Stude (the town is East on the map).
Any thoughts? I'm pretty happy with the plan so far, except the west ladder doesn't look right somehow. I can't think of how else to add the classification tracks though. The switcher would probably work the west end.
I would have set up the yard differently... I know you don't have a huge amount of disposable resources...
The yellow is the mainline, the green is engine facilities, the red is your A/D, and the blue is the classification tracks. Westbound trains pull in, uncouple the lokz, run around on the track between the A/D and Classification tracks, and into engine servicing. The switcher would then drag the cars back onto the lead, and sort them on the classification tracks...
Alex
Looks good, but I don't know about a few aspects of your design.
1. Random Factory or something...
2. Yeah, it was just a loose idea.
3. Hm, maybe you need to add another position to plug the throttle into!
How many trains are you originating and terminating in the yard?
If its not too many lose the "A&D" track and just make them all "tracks", all on the same lead. Only large yards have A&D tracks, with only 3 class tracks (one of which may be an intermodal track), you aren't going to be doing much switching anyway.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I think I'll do away with the factory, I think it will just confuse operators. I have a port to plug the throttle into, but it's a bit buried under the benchwork... I'll bring it out to the front where it belongs. That will defeat the purpase of the yard throttle, unless I have a switcher on the West end as well.
The A/D tracks weren't just for arriving and departing trains, they'll probably be used for classifying cars. I should have labeled the other ones "storage"...
This yard will origanate and termanate one local turn, and take blocks off one through freight in each direction for the local.The yard will have to be able to handle the cars off the through freights and work on the local. I haven't yet figured out the schedule, but I'm fairly certain that there won't be any more than one train in the yard at a time. Run-through traffic will be an intermodel train, but that just bypasses the yard on the mainline.
I'm planing to control trains with "crew-change" points just outside of the yard, to control traffic so that the yard and/or the single track pass just east of the yard don'tget swamped with traffic. The dispatcher will have to tightly control traffic, because I don't have too many sidings if things get bad... I'm going to miss my staging yard... Would you reccomend adding more siding capacity on the curve just east of the yard? That's the current location of the staging yard. (I haven't torn it up yet, although I've almost finished the yard.)
I think I'll probably go with Alex's design (a little modified to remove the random factory and add some more locomotive/freightcar servicing facilities), unless anyone has a better one?
It will still be a long time before I can start building, as I've only got almost all of the classification yard up, and there's still the staging yard to go, although none of that is sceniced, so I won't have to scrape up the ballast and pull up the cork roadbed, just cut the track apart...
Better get busy!
You're right, such a small yard wouldn't need a large locomotive facility. I was thinking this is the railroad's main locomotive facility. I'm modeling a freelanced shortline running from Concord, NH to White River Jct, VT, a distance of about 75 miles. The railroad's shops have to be at either Concord or WRJ, and I thought they'd be neat to model.
I'm going to have one track for basic locomotive servicing, and a longer track into a building (probably one of the Walthers buildings, if I can find a cheap one) for locomotive and freightcar repair. I have a single Impack unit (this one car doesn't match the rest) that I'll have up on blocks, and I'll also have a long track for my MOW equipment. I'll probably also provide a track for all the "junk" that a typical shop gathers, such as old freightcars and locomotives as parts sources.
Structures I'll have to buy include a fueling facility, some sort of shop structure, and possibly a sanding tower. I already have a shed that will work great for the parts and lube shed.
I don't know what you mean about the A/D function of the siding so as not to block the main. This yard isn't connected to the main except for the crossovers at the end of both drill tracks. That wouldn't really clog up the main. I'm going to keep all three A/D tracks for extra capacity, especially if I need to cram two trains in the yard at the same time. It can hold three trains, but it would start to feel a little tight.
I can't wait to start building!
Actually, I would remove the A/D tracks. A good yard master should be able to use just the class tracks to sort trains. It would also add some interest in operating, kind of like a puzzle for the yard master to solve. I think you'd be able to get by with one large class yard, and a much smaller separate yard for your TOFC trains, or maybe even the last track in your yard could be used for this. You only have 3 classification tracks, and 3 A/D tracks, your A/D probably won't be full all the time, but your Class tracks might get filled up quick. I would also recommend that the drill track be completely separate from the siding. It's not fun when you have a east bound train in the siding, with your yard engine in the hole waiting for a west bound freight, when you have to get 2 or 3 trains to get sorted...
My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JR7582 My Flickr Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcfan/
TrainManTy wrote:You're right, such a small yard wouldn't need a large locomotive facility. I was thinking this is the railroad's main locomotive facility. I'm modeling a freelanced shortline running from Concord, NH to White River Jct, VT, a distance of about 75 miles. The railroad's shops have to be at either Concord or WRJ, and I thought they'd be neat to model.I'm going to have one track for basic locomotive servicing, and a longer track into a building (probably one of the Walthers buildings, if I can find a cheap one) for locomotive and freightcar repair. I have a single Impack unit (this one car doesn't match the rest) that I'll have up on blocks, and I'll also have a long track for my MOW equipment. I'll probably also provide a track for all the "junk" that a typical shop gathers, such as old freightcars and locomotives as parts sources. Structures I'll have to buy include a fueling facility, some sort of shop structure, and possibly a sanding tower. I already have a shed that will work great for the parts and lube shed. I don't know what you mean about the A/D function of the siding so as not to block the main. This yard isn't connected to the main except for the crossovers at the end of both drill tracks. That wouldn't really clog up the main. I'm going to keep all three A/D tracks for extra capacity, especially if I need to cram two trains in the yard at the same time. It can hold three trains, but it would start to feel a little tight. I can't wait to start building!
Hi Tyler --
Had a look around your blopspot web site and read what you posted here, but I suspect that I still haven't understood quite what you are saying about your needs and what you have available.
To see if I have understood you, based on what I have gotten from things you have written here and on your web site:
- You are basing your yard on the prototype yard in Lebanon, NH, but you are naming it "White River Junction"
- Your yard location relative to the rest of your layout is like:
a) Single track main west/left (into staging) b) Longish double ended siding w/yard branching off siding c) Single track main east/right to New Poland (modelled part of layout)
- You want the yard to function for
a) sorting cars into locals for the visible layout and blocks for off layout destinations b) holding blocks of cars for a while and c) having room for some engine service functions
Almost a double handful of questions:
1) How big is the area available for the yard ? From your pictures it looks like your longest old yard track was about 7-8 (50 foot?) cars long ?
2) Are you planning to also use the double ended siding for train meets or can it be used exclusively as a switching lead/yard approach track ?
3) If used as a switching lead - how long does the siding continue past the end of the yard ladder ?
4) Is there enough traffic on the main that it matters whether you have to stop traffic on the main while you throw the turnout from the double ended siding to the main and use part of the main to switch cuts of cars between classification and in/outbound tracks ?
5) How many different destinations do you expect to be classifying cars for the same time ?
6) How many cars for each destination (max) ?
7) How long do you expect your inbound/outbound locals will be ?
8) How long do you expect blocks from/to off-layout locations will be ?
9) How many inbound or outbound blocks do you anticipate having to keep in the yard before they are picked up or classified ?
Enough questions for now ?
Grin, Stein
The yard design is totally freelanced, but I'm locating it in Lebanon, NH. White River Junction is just across the river. I was naming it White River Jct. so that visitors who aren't familier with the area won't get confused.
The yard is located on the Western end of the layout. The tracks go west towards White River Junction, but in reality the trains reappear as trains from Concord, to the east.
The yard lead goes West to an unmodeled crossover, in reality the crossover is in Stude, after the trains reappear.
The track goes east through New Poland, over the pass, through Dooley and Stude, and eventually they reappear as eastbound trains in White River Junction/Lebanon.
The yard functions as a place where I can take blocks off through trains for local delivery, making up locals from those, and sorting cars from the locals into Eastbound and Westbound blocks to put on the next through train in that direction.
It also holds blocks of cars off the local until the through freight arrives, and holds blocks of cars off the through freight until it's time to put the local together.
The yard also houses as the main maintanence facilities for the White River Southern Railroad.
Here are the answers to the rest of your questions:
1) How big is the area available for the yard? The new location is both the former yard location as well as the old staging yard. The old staging yard was on a curve, so it won't work well for a yard ladder. That's the servicing facilities.
2) Are you planning to also use the double ended siding for train meets or can it be used exclusively as a switching lead/yard approach track? The yard has a drill track on either end, and it will be used for arriving trains to pull in on as well as the yard switcher. No through trains will be held on it.
3) If used as a switching lead, how long does the siding continue past the end of the yard ladder? The track extends for about 5 or 6 feet on either end past the last switch. This is plenty for my yard job.
4) Is there enough traffic on the main that it matters whether you have to stop traffic on the main while you throw the turnout from the double ended siding to the main and use part of the main to switch cuts of cars between classification and in/outbound tracks? There isn't all that much traffic on the mainline, and the drill tracks are long enough that I won't have to block the main. I can double the move if I have to.
5) How many different destinations do you expect to be classifying cars for the same time? There are three destinations for freightcars in the yard: Eastbound, Westbound, and Local Delivery
6) How many cars for each destination (max)? That depends. About half of my cars are out of service until they receive metal wheelsets, but with all of them in service the most cars I would typically handle is around 10.
I wouldn't know really about now, because my old plan had one through train, while this one has 3. I don't have enough locomotives for two through trains plus the yard switcher and local freight engine, plus the intermodel train.
7) How long do you expect your inbound/outbound locals will be? The local again depends on how many cars are in service. With all my cars I would say about 7 cars, although I'm going to plan for 10 if I can, which is about how many a locomotive can handle over the pass.
8) How long do you expect blocks from/to off-layout locations will be? The average number of these is 5. That is with cars from two locals however, as there used to be only one through freight which cycled directions daily, so if there was a westbound through freight one day, the eastbound cars would lay over in the yard overnight till the next day's train in the right direction.
9) How many inbound or outbound blocks do you anticipate having to keep in the yard before they are picked up or classified? I'm not sure yet. The last time I operated the layout, it had a totally differant operating plan, and I had about twice as many locomotives and freightcars, and there was only one train a day except for the local. I normally would classify everything as soon as it came in. I'm planning for all of the cars being stored, as I know I will continue to change the operating plan until I get it right.
Normally a yard would have a caboose track. It may not be a reasonable or practical thing to have in your situation, but I thought I'd mention that I don't see one. If your era is after 1975 or so, I suppose it doesn't matter.
-Crandell
Tyler, you've got the right idea, but the prototypes rarely would sit still for stub ended tracks.
Why not move the diresel shop (a single track) to the rear, near the backdrop, and make your classification tracks double ended. If you can only get two classification tracks to be double ended, then so be it....the third could wind up being your caboose track or a rip (repair in place) track.
By making yards double ended, railroads could work either end for maximum efficiency. Trains arriving and departing were generaly kept out of the classification tracks, and a shortage of those tracks means nothing, since railroads frequently used a single track for classification and holding of cars for multiple destinations.
Also, by using the same switch geometry, i.e., all No. 5's on both ends, etc. then the yard track spacing will be identical and the yard should then look "right".
If your yard is intended only to add or remove blocks of cars from through trains, then the size would be correct, but it would be imperative that switchers could work from both ends.
You could easily designate the "A/D" tracks as the "Eastbound Arrival/Departure" and the "Westbound Arrival/Departure". A yard tower or single story yardmaster's office would sit near them.
I've worked many a night in a small yard like this on the SP, and currently I run past a small yard in San Antonio, TX that has only three tracks for classification of cars, but the men and women who do the work seem to get it done with little problem.
I could go for double ended classification tracks, but I don't think they're really neccisary in my case. My previous yard had them, and to tell the truth I always worked from one end. Those switches on the East end were pretty much untouched by the yard job.
I don't think I have enough traffic (I couldn't get enough operators anyway) to have two switchers. This is a pretty small yard. The old yard had a bit of activity at the beginning and the end of each session, but during most of it the yard sat idle. This is going to change of course, with the addition of another through train, but I don't think it will increase traffic enough to require another switcher.
A backlog of classification work is actually good, in my opinion, because after the through freights leave after dropping off and picking up cars, there's really nothing to do until the local gets back with local cars. A backlog of cars to be sorted would keep the yard operator from getting bored.
Currently the locomotive shop location (only the lead is in so far though) is on a curve where I couldn't put a yard ladder even if I wanted to. I'm happy with where it is right now. Moving it wouldn't give me any advantage.
The switches are salvaged from my last yard, and are standardized by track type. The A/D tracks have #6s, as do the leads, while the classification tracks have #4s, as I really didn't want to have to invest in more #6s. My last yard had #4s on the A/D tracks too, and it worked fine.
TrainManTy wrote:Here are the answers to the rest of your questions:
Well, you didn't actually answer my question about how big the area available for the yard was (as in how many inches deep and how many inches or feet long), but here is an attempt to sketch out your friend Alex's plan, after making these assumptions:
So - do you have 16-18 feet of length for the yard scene ?
Here is another yard in that size range - based on the Vermont Railway's Burlington, VT, yard:
Quick explanation of design parameters for this yard, quoted from a post I made in the thread "modern modelgenic yards" back at the end of July 2008:
Vermont Railway's Burlington, VT yard could be compressed quite a bit and still retain a fairly prototypical feel.According to information I received from a forum regular very familiar with that yard a few months ago, it handles two kinds of trains - 30 car trains and 10 car trains.
At least half of the yard's capacity is used for local industries and off spot storage, including team track handling of different commodities. It has a small engine facility, and MOW & RIP tracks.
The plan is designed for two different train lengths - long trains of one engine, max fourteen 40' freight cars and a caboose, and short trains of one engine, max nine 40' freight cars and a caboose. The key to yard flexibility is the interaction between tracks F, G, H, K and L. Track L is the Running Track, which can be used to allow trains to bypass the yard without disturbing switching operations. It can also be used as a runaround for trains that turn at Burlington and head back to the left or to the right. It can also be used as an A/D track for long trains (engine, 14 cars and caboose). And it can be used as a siding for a passing meeting- one long train can hold on L, between the crossovers to track H, while another train snakes past it by way of track H or track F/G. Track H is the primary A/D track of the yard. It can also be used as a runaround for a long train on track L, or when dropping off or picking up interchange traffic on track F/G. Track F/G: Left bound interchange traffic is dropped off and picked up at F. Right bound interchange traffic is dropped off and picked up at G- Track K is the yard lead - or rather - part of the yard lead - it is also the lead for traffic to the engine service facility (J) and to the RIP track (I). Yard lead is long enough to pull an entire short train of 9 cars from the primary A/D track (H) and move the cars to classification. Track M is the caboose storage track - it can hold 4-5 cabooses. The label E marks three general classification/storage tracks - long enough for 10-12 cars - ie long enough to built a full short train of nine cars and a caboose. Track C/D is the team track - at C there is an end unloading ramp, while cargo is unloaded directly in trucks at D. Track A/B is another industry track - at A there is a fuel dealer, while at B there is a concrete company.
If you see anything you like, feel free to grab it. If not, just ignore it.
steinjr wrote: TrainManTy wrote:Here are the answers to the rest of your questions: Well, you didn't actually answer my question about how big the area available for the yard was (as in how many inches deep and how many inches or feet long), but here is an attempt to sketch out your friend Alex's plan, after making these assumptions: Your cars are on average 50-foot cars, not 89-foot cars ...You would like to hold a couple of 5-6 car cuts and a 10-car cut without fouling the mainTurnouts are mostly no 6, with a few no4 for the topmost single ended tracks
Whoops...forgot about that...
Those points are basicly correct. I actually have almost finished laying the yard, so I'll post photos and see what you guys can do for modifying that plan. I like the way it looks and it should be easy to operate.
I may add switches on the ends of the single ended tracks, as it doesn't decrease how long they are, plus I don't want to feel limited to one end of the yard. I'm going to work on the yard some more tonight, when I'll get photos for you.
All right, I've got photos!
Here's what it looks like today.
West end looking East:
Middle of the yard:
East end looking West:
All the way back against the wall. Switch to locomotive facility is in the foreground, as is the tail track for the DDWH interchange on the other side of the backdrop. The hole in the backdrop for that will be covered by a building, which I'll have to kitbash or something to make it fit. The Chessie U23B (currently WRS 2306) is in the locomotive servicing facility, which hasn't been added. I'm waiting to finish the track there till my Pikestuff engine house comes in.
Furthest East end looking West. The second track by the backdrop is the yard lead, which joins the mainline about a foot off the right edge of the photo. The Chessie U23B can give you a good idea of how long the yard lead is when you compare it to the photo of the unit and the yard.
Just playing around with my new yard and my new unit (freshly repainted, anyway) as the yard switcher. This unit will probably either work the yard, a mainline train, or the local turn.
TrainManTy wrote:Just wanted to BUMP this up... I'm hoping to start working on scenery in this area soon, but I want to make sure I won't want to change anything before I go ahead and make the trackwork semi-perminant.
Looks pretty good to me.
That Chessie engine on the stub ended track on the eastern end of the yard (by the curve in the backdrop) shows where the track that will lead to the engine service area will go ?
I assume the engine service be to the east of the corner, between the mainline and the yard lead ?
Only thing I wonder about is that caboose track (single ended innermost - by the backdrop - track behind the clasification tracks in the main part of the yard). Fairly long and single ended. Would it work with a shorter caboose track that is double ended instead ? Maybe connecting the western most end to the top of the yard ladder or some such thing ?
Anyways - may I say that I do envy you (at least a little) that nice big space you seem to have available for your layout - I suspect that just your yard area is bigger than my entire layout space
Yes, the engine terminal will extend a few more feet on track to be built past the Chessie locomotive. It will just be a Pikestuff 1 stall engine house, a small shed, and either a fueling rack or a small fuel truck. I gave up on the idea of the shops, although I may have a short RIP track near the locomotive terminal or the caboose track.
Speaking of the caboose track, yes it is long and single ended, but since it doubles as the track where the MOW equipment/wreck train/all that junk a yard accumulates after a while, I don't think I want to change it. The only trains running with a caboose are the local freight and any MOW/special trains that need one.
I do like having a big yard space, even if it takes up about half of my available area. It's nice to model one thing well (in this case the yard) rather than try to cram in both a yard and a staging yard in this space. When I tried that, neither turned out great, and both had severely limited capacity.
I guess I'll go and finish off the trackwork now that I won't be changing much else! There's still some rather bad joints and such, plus one switch that's out of gauge... Lots of work to do!