Will DC layouts go the way of VHS?

[John Busby]

Hi AntonioFP45

A number of popular brands where I live the maintenace instructions go as follows

oil the loco as shown in diagram run so many hours oil again, when run so many more hours replace motor.

I did a price check on a loco motor for a loco that was a gift from a relative and instructions should read buy new loco it's cheaper than a replacement motor.

I to have had the odd lemon or two as well this was back in the day when spare parts and service department where not dirty words and meant exactly what they where suposed to.

And I have had a few modern variety lemons as well and felt the service ect just was not there and the wonderfull detailed bodies hold throw away motors so all it takes is the manufacturer to change motors and your six month old worn out loco motor means replace the lot.

regards John Busby

 

[Autobus Prime]

The next generation of ''smart'' control devices will most certainly use a form of DCC, but it will involve PC's and most likely some type of hand-held device similar to Blackberries.

LD:

Smart, smart, smart. Everything has to be smart. Why doesn't anyone ever extol the merits of dumb systems?

Think of an elevator. You push the button. The car comes. You push the button. You get to your floor. It does exactly what you want it to do, every time, UNOBTRUSIVELY.

You don't have to set up favorite background music, preferred elevator speed, personalized wallpaper, etc. Just push the button and ride.

I LOVE DUMB SYSTEMS.

Okay, that was a rant. Another different one may follow.

There are systems in model railroading. For instance, take the RTR HO Scale-18"R snap track-4x8 system that seems to have developed during the '50s.

Today, a lot of MRRers, whether we realize it or not, subscribe to this system:

-Lots of trains running in a parade,
-on a convoluted around-the-wall table with peninsulas,
-in a modern, relatively large and wide-open basement or garage, with
-Lots of staging to hold the trains, and
-operated by DCC

And let's not forget the need for...
-Lots of scratch to get something like this working and buy all the equipment.

DCC drops right into this. But there are other things that go with it - large fleets of similar freight cars (lots of trains need lots of cars), fleets of similar locomotives ditto, large industries modeled big. It's an expensive system. It's not the only one in use. There are plenty people whose layouts have only 10 or so block toggles or a handful of Atlas Selectors.



CNJ831:

No kidding. I remember an early 90s article in MR in which a layout owner claimed that DCC's constant track voltage eliminated most electrical pickup problems. :D

So many times, when technology is involved, we are reminded of the peasant who ate 3 loaves of bread, was still hungry, ate a pretzel, and was full, and then wished he'd saved the money for the 3 loaves of bread.

[loathar]

 

Older locomotives retire I don't think so.

I deliberatly seek out the older locomotives as they are of far better quality construction than the modern rubish with throw away motors.

My latest new loco is older than I am was fitted with the same manufacturers modern wheels,given a clean up and away it goes it will probably out live me

Buy loco and throw out in six months because its cheaper to buy a new one than replace the motor not for me thanks.

 

Yep! Give me those old open frame and pancake motors with their 2 amp current draw, jack rabbit starts and 200 mph top speeds!

What exactly are they selling you folks on the other side of the planet that needs it's motor replaced in 6 months???

[Autobus Prime]

 

Older locomotives retire I don't think so.

I deliberatly seek out the older locomotives as they are of far better quality construction than the modern rubish with throw away motors.

My latest new loco is older than I am was fitted with the same manufacturers modern wheels,given a clean up and away it goes it will probably out live me

Buy loco and throw out in six months because its cheaper to buy a new one than replace the motor not for me thanks.

 

Yep! Give me those old open frame and pancake motors with their 2 amp current draw, jack rabbit starts and 200 mph top speeds!

What exactly are they selling you folks on the other side of the planet that needs it's motor replaced in 6 months???

L:

Lima pancake motors, I would guess.

Yet more undeserved flak for the poor open frames. What's the deal with that?

Actually, I know what it is. Lots of imported cheapies and Tyco sticking underpowered PM-1s in big locos, and older, weakened motor magnets that reduced torque and increased speed and current draw, that's the deal with that. That weakening can give you jackrabbit starts, although a decent motor can too, if the mechanism binds or has excess friction.

Look at it this way...an open frame motor has:

An armature just like a can motor (either can be done right, either can be done poorly)

Two bearings, usually solid, just like a can motor

A magnetic field, just like a can motor. This is the main difference. Can motors have two rather small magnets; an open frame has one large magnet with pole pieces. Either can be strong or weak. Take a look here to see what you can do with a NdFeB high-strength magnet in a cheap, speedy Tyco PM-1,a common victim of weakened magnets:

http://www.geocities.com/budb3

An open frame. Advantages: better cooling, easier to inspect and maintain, usually narrower. Disadvantage: bigger appetite for loose iron bits and carpet fuzz.

The only real advantages a quality can motor has over a quality open-frame is that it can use cheaper, smaller magnets, and the enclosed can. Neither of these is much related to model railroad performance, but they probably are why there are lots of good-running automotive and consumer-product can motors being produced, which we can grab hold of for model purposes. The Helix Humper, for instance, uses an automotive-accessory can motor. That's the real reason there are so many can motors today. It's what we have.

The coreless motors are a different story altogether, but they're a very small minority of what powers the model railroad fleet of today.

[Autobus Prime]

I think one of the keys to whether or not DCC is appealing is whether or not you operate prototypically and have lots of people run the trains with you...
...But if you're mostly a railfan who just likes to watch the trains run and often run the trains solo or just with another guy or two, then I can see why DCC might not be very appealing.

jf:

This is actually a good illustration of the train parade-staging-DCC system I was talking about. I mostly run trains solo, but I consider it realistic operation. Lots of railroads saw only a few trains running at a time...lots of places on big, busy railroads, even. You can have prototypical operation without lots of trains.

 

INDIVIDUAL LOCO TUNING

However, as I've said elsewhere, don't overlook one of DCC's very powerful traits: individual loco tuning. Some of the best slow speed loco performance I've seen has been on DCC using a Back EMF decoder ... the loco literally "floats" smoothly through complex trackwork like it has tremendous mass. Very impressive!

No more fiddling with power pack settings to try and get the best performance out of each-and-every loco or trying to remember what settings worked best last time with this loco. No more concerns about compensating for a stiff mechanism or tight trackwork by cranking up the throttle briefly while starting out your train or while running the train through the yard ladder.

And no need to pull off the loco shell to adjust loco performance by fiddling with the mechanism. You can easily adjust loco performance settings while it's on the track using DCC programming on the main.

That's one thing DC just can't match. 

But the fact remains that this is not a feature of DCC per se. You can put back emf on a fixed DC throttle, too, as well as momentum and any other feature. There may be no need to fiddle with mechanisms once this is done...but fiddling will still happen. A good mech will work better on a good controller than a bad mech will.

As for loco tuning - again, this fits the big-model-railroad philosophy. When one has a lot of locos, one can't use the mental processing unit to remember which ones run at which speed where, and a lot of MU-ing is being done. If DCC loco tuning can help two different locos MU compatibly, that's a very clear advantage...but not so clear when you generally use one loco per train, or compatible locos of the same manufacturer MU'd, or dummy units (which used to be popular).

When I am running trains, I turn the knob until I get the speed I want. I am never even aware of where the knob is. I don't even look at it. I doubt the "real" V&E would have had such things as speedometers on its small steam, anyhow. I know about what 25 SMPH "feels" like.

So often, technology simultaneously creates and partially fills a need...

[John Busby]

Hi loathar

Never had problems with jack rabbit starts pulse control seems to tame most things.

But I do have a very old loco that will not behave unless its running on a controler as old as it is, I hate to think what the current draw is but it will only behave on that controler.

They can go from 0 to OH! my god!! pretty fast if you are not carefull and don't have inertia built in to the controler or switched off.

Its pretty hard to find good Loco's localy most of them the (Good ones that is) modelers bring in themselves from over seas and cheaper than some of the carp avalable local.

I find with the trains I have you have to well all most drive them you cannot quite set and forget I like that.

The best shunting ( switching) loco I ever had was made in 1965 and like a fool I accepted an over the top offer for it, because I just had to have that big red locomotive, which I still have and am now chasing another switcher bet I don't find one as good as the one I sold, any sugestions for a good quality modern DC 4wh switcher preferably steam if not, early very ugly diesle

regards John Busby

[R. T. POTEET]

As Samuel Clemens once commented: "Rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated."

Awhile back I encountered a website of a company that still produces eight-track reel-to-reel tapes for those people still possessing eight-track reel-to-reel tape units. I had one and I thought the music quality was far superior to cassette. VHS did win the home entertainment format but BETA captured the professional market and continues to be a major player to this day.  Eventually DCC may prevail in the marketplace but I don't think I would count out DC just yet.

There are too many variables in DCC to write DC's immenent doom; observe the number of posts which ask things like: "Can I fit an XYZ98431256XL decoder in my ABC EMD SD3492 20,000 horsepower locomotive?" or "What decoder should I use for my ABC EMD SD3492 20,000 horsepower locomotive?" or "Are XYZ98431256XL decoders any good?" It may very well be that the hobby manufacturers will - if they are not doing so already - offer all of their locomotives as "DCC ready" or "DCC friendly" - whatever those terms mean; please, don't waste an explanation because I don't really care what they mean! - and that, I suppose, would be good but there has been a volume of bellyaches here on the forum bemoaning Athearn's selection of MRC products hard-wired into their recent locomotive offerings. The novice is still likely to select  DC-capable offerings if for not other reason than they are going to be initially cheaper.

I am anticipating going DCC on my next/new layout but I am very conscious that the expense of doing that is going to be at least $1000.00 and that is $1000.00 that I'm not going to have to invest in other modeling endeavors. 

[loathar]

Autobus Prime wrote-Yet more undeserved flak for the poor open frames. What's the deal with that?

I was thinking more along the lines of the open frames that came in the old Mantua kits. Under powered, high amperage draw and about the worst brush mounting system out there. Can't wait to chuck it for a can!

[Autobus Prime]

Autobus Prime wrote-Yet more undeserved flak for the poor open frames. What's the deal with that?

I was thinking more along the lines of the open frames that came in the old Mantua kits. Under powered, high amperage draw and about the worst brush mounting system out there. Can't wait to chuck it for a can!

L:

That would be the PM-1.

The completely unopinionated "BudB" managed to get a pretty substantial performance boost out of these with a 1/2" cube NdFeB magnet:

http://www.geocities.com/budb3/arts/motor/manpm1nmag.html

I may try this sometime.

[vsmith]

I guess I'm a Luddite then, I'm DC have always been and for the forseeable future always will be.

But I like the concept of DCC, and have nothing against it. So why am I still banging the rocks together with DC, simple, no thats it, its SIMPLE, my layout is set up for one at a time operation, uses good old fashion Atlas block controls and coupled with an Crest Basic Train Engineer R/C throttle controlling track power, I can operate my layout as effectively as I ever could with DCC.

Will DCC eventually overwhelm DC? Maybe, probably so...but its gonna take a while. Collectors, and guys like me who dont want to get highly technical will see to that.

Brunton mentioned the battery systems in large scale, and while its true that its is the best system for large outdoor layouts, it also has its limitations, batteries are large and bulky, RC boards are also bulky, add sound boards and speakers combined it often stuffs every available sqaure inch of space inside an engine or tenders shell, and weighs tenders down reducing engine performance. Some even use a permantaly attached trailing car to stuff all this into, so we've got a ways to go till these battery R/C systems are anywhere near small enough to be usefull on HO even longer for N or Z. ..till then DCC will rule the techno-roost.

[dmitzel]

jf:

This is actually a good illustration of the train parade-staging-DCC system I was talking about. I mostly run trains solo, but I consider it realistic operation. Lots of railroads saw only a few trains running at a time...lots of places on big, busy railroads, even. You can have prototypical operation without lots of trains.

My operation resembles that remark. I'm modeling a Class 1 subdivision out in the boondocks of the north central states. I can sit beside the prototype main line for hours and only see one train, if I'm lucky. Running the model solo, one train with one DC controller is not only fine as a solo operator, but perfectly prototypical. If I want to schedule a meet, I run one train from staging onto the modeled portion of the layout and into the siding and park it. I then run the opposing train out of staging and run past the siding and back into staging. I then proceed to pull the parked train out of the siding and switch the local industries before running back into staging. Simple, efficient and with no extra complexity nor further investment required.

As a previous poster said, I too "LOVE DUMB SYSTEMS." After working in a tech job for too many stressful hours daily, I relish retreating to my low-tech railroad and drift back to a simpler time and place. Most of the time I just run a single train by itself, taking the time to drop and couple up cars at slow speeds, wait for a trainman to walk to a switch, unlock it and bend the iron, pump up the air and perform a brake test, etc. Meanwhile, I can soak up the atmosphere of my little farm town from the perspective of a railfan before resuming the run. Lots of similar layouts featured in the popular press these days - Lance Mindheim's CSX, Bob Madison's NH, and Bruce Petty's SP - as one-train operations.

[sfrailfan]

Mike (mikesmowers) said it best, ya can't tell the future. I am a member of a club that uses DCC, but at home I still have a DC layout. As a matter of fact, I'm just now going to add to the 25+ year old tech II with the newer tech IV (dual cab) power pack.

BUT***** For the larger stlye layout, be it home or club, once you leave a certain size, or more importantly shape I think regular DC is not an option anymore. Our layout (like many) has fingers that form isles, and then the mainline wraps around to the back of the room. We use wireless DCC (CVP) so we can follow our train and not get caught by wires ect.

Despite all the light effects ect. I can't be bothered with DCC on my small swithing layout of only about 13'x2'. But I do know for those who would like to set it up there are all the obvious advantages.

————Maybe if DCC were easier to hook up in the future, it would also help it replacing DC because cost is not my issue.

Dan

[gmcrail]

It's not the complexity of hooking up that bothers me (actually DCC looks to be a bunch easier to wire than a DC layout), it's the expense.  With upwards of 40-50 locos, I can't afford to blow around $1k on decoders.  Not to mention the problems of installing decoders in locomotives from the Fifties and Sixties, which compriose most of my fleet...

[seacoast]

DCC will finally at somepoint win the sales battle over DC. However in toy trains there is a huge following of people who still use traditional transformers AC and a newer legion of command control folks. I really do not feel like outfitting all of my older dc powered engines with decoders unless the DCC unit has both DCC and DC capabilities as do the toy train Lionel and MTH DCS systems.

[markpierce]

Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't. it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.   Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't. it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.   Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't. it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.   Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't. it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  Yes it will. No it won't.  

I'm tired.

Mark

[xxactraxx]

Blank VHS tapes are still readily available. Like DC locomotives will be for a long time to come.

Anynody know WHY VHS beat out Beta?

Yes.

Although Beta was of slightly superior quality in terms of color reproduction, it was waaayy more expensive. The public voted with their wallets and it was eventually doomed. It didn't help that Sony was the only other manufacturer of the technology either.

I'm really surprised that Blue Ray won out over HD DVD. HD DVD was less expensive, but apparently some of the other big studios threw their hats towards Blue ray because of the larger storage capabilities they could see as furthering their revenue stream.

Actually, the answer is simpler.  Much simpler.

Marketing $$$.  Money spent getting manufacturers and media distributors on board.  Money spent making customers think they want it over the competition, etc.  Superior technology doesn't necessarily win out over advertising.

Slightly off topic (but it's a rhetorical question anyway)... Anybody remember OS/2?  I didn't think so.

PS: I'm waiting out the whole DCC thing.  I'm in software for my day job, and the last thing I want to do is configuring CV's on a programming track, or debug why such and such a decoder isn't working, or fry a bunch of decoders because some electrical snafu.  As for ye olde electric blocks, that's just the ultimate in train movement control, no?  The rules of the road are "the train won't go if the current won't flow. ;-)"

If the next thing after DCC is, say, RC, then I may go for that.  Or not.  We'll see.

 

[RealNeal]

As long as DCC locomotives cost $100 more than DC locos, DC will NOT die out...

[Packers#1]

I'm finally getting off my lazy butt and replying to this.

No, I don't think that DC layouts will go the way of the VHS. There are two main reasons. One, there are bound to still be old timers who swear by it, and two, there are always going to be some layouts that are so small, DCC would be a waste of money. And with these new locomotives that have sound in DC and DCC, you don't have to have DCC for sound.

[PA&ERR]

Wait a minute! What's happening to VHS?

There's something happening to VHS!

-George

[BRAKIE]

George I surely hope not..I just bought a new DVD/VCR player so I can continue to watch my railroad tapes.