selector wrote: You make a good point, Craig, but if a person only has so much time in a 24 hour period, and they are largely consumed with exposure of self on a communication device (the new society), something else has to give. Studies are still required by law in most jurisdictions, and a body will demand to eat and to defecate...those things will not change, I agree...but the market for "free time" and "free money" is changing. Hobbies may still commmand some attention and money, but it won't be the market that the hand-helds of this kind can command.-Crandell
You make a good point, Craig, but if a person only has so much time in a 24 hour period, and they are largely consumed with exposure of self on a communication device (the new society), something else has to give. Studies are still required by law in most jurisdictions, and a body will demand to eat and to defecate...those things will not change, I agree...but the market for "free time" and "free money" is changing. Hobbies may still commmand some attention and money, but it won't be the market that the hand-helds of this kind can command.
-Crandell
I hear you, but if I look back to my youth in the 60s/70s, only one of my hordes of friends was interested in hobbies to the degree I was/am. (We are still friends today despite a 1000 mile separation. He still models today as does his 11 year-old.)
My point is, there never have been very many of us serious hobbyist-types in the general population anyway.
The trend of youth moving away from hobbies because of other distractions has always existed as acknowledged many times on these forums but if that creative/hobbyist spark is in your DNA, you always come back to it.
You'll just be buying it online.
I'll bet $5 on it -- check back in 20 years!
Craig
DMW
[/i]In short, it is illogical to conclude that interest in model railroading is waning because so many LHSes are closing their doors. It is probably more accurate to say that so many LHSes are closing their doors because interest in model railroading and other hands on hobbies is waning. [/i]
It's probably more accurate to say either that LHS's are closing their doors because the owner is retiring and can't find a buyer for the shop or that the person didn't know what he was doing in the first place. As others have pointed out, the sure way for a business to fail in the first year or so is under-capitalization.
Other than that, I pretty much agree with you.
Andre
Many interesting comments and suggestions. The real question is what venues will keep our hobby healthy.
Like doctors and lawyers where 50% graduate in the bottom half of their class; hobby shops, train shows and whatevers are quite similar. I could literally write volumes on my experiences in hobby shops. For 9 years I drove a corporate airplane for a major company. In my brain (flight) bag was always a Model Railroader magazine. Layovers were plentiful and in just about every state except the big one in the middle of the Pacific. Any ground time that exceeded 4 hours found me in a borrowed car or cab visting the local hobby shop. Some were quite good....well stocked and with friendly counter folks................others...."What the hell are you doing here" looks.
One shop, actually near by in Silver Spring...........the owner would toss a Walthers catalog at me upon entering! "Go find what you need!" and go on with what he was doing not giving a tinker's *** if I left or stayed. This idiot did not last long and rightly so.
We are all ambassadors for our hobby be it show promoter, shop owner, club member, or just sharing your layout with others and the public!
About the argument that many have made about kids and whatevers being exposed and turned on to this hobby through web sites..........I feel is greatly flawed. Kids from 3 to 103 have to see items in the flesh to have the seed planted. I also realize that today's youngster lacks somewhat in one to one communicative skills due to on line everythings, but I feel they must have verbal contact from someone already in this hobby for their interest to take hold and continue.
I greatly understand how important it is to find the best price, and many times these will be found on line. I also understand the frustrations when entering an understocked shop with full retail prices and aloof sales people. My suggestion..............FIND ANOTHER SHOP! In my area (central Maryland), we are lucky to have several good shops, Tommy Gilbert has won most if not all of my business by his wonderful service. He is 80 miles north west, and 90% is done through the mail. We also have Peach Creek, Moose Caboose, Mail Bag, M.B.Klein, and others........all excellent and I'm sure I could have received equal service from them............just Tommy made an extreme sales effort for my business and his pitch was excellent and it was the service issue, not the price which turned me his way.
I doubt seriously that by clicking on a "shopping cart" will result in this kind of service. This hobby is more than buying trains at the best price on line............it is about people and sharing ideas and yes...........bestowing our knowledge and experience on newbies and possible newbies.
Happy choo choos and thought for the day...."It is better to be seen than viewed" At my age, this has some meaning.
HZ
jecorbett wrote: Let me make this perfectly clear. My objections are not to the opinions you express on this forum. My objections are the way you come in here on your high horse demanding that others who want to express their opinions back up those opinions with what you deem to be "verifiable facts" while you feel free to express your own view sans such facts. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple. To me, a verifiable fact to support your position would be a survey which indicates that signficant numbers of new modelers became interested in model railroading while visiting a hobby shop for non railroading items.
Let me make this perfectly clear. My objections are not to the opinions you express on this forum. My objections are the way you come in here on your high horse demanding that others who want to express their opinions back up those opinions with what you deem to be "verifiable facts" while you feel free to express your own view sans such facts. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple. To me, a verifiable fact to support your position would be a survey which indicates that signficant numbers of new modelers became interested in model railroading while visiting a hobby shop for non railroading items.
The joke here is that the posting of actual numerical results of surveys appears to mean absolutely nothing toward substantiating a position here. I've posted valid figures more than once on differing subjects on this forum. However, in doing so, such numbers were immediately claimed to be not representative, bias, or irrelevant, even though based on published hobby sources others could consult for themselves, simply because they were counter to the group's general "opinion" of things. And, of course, no substantial or verifiable counter evidence is ever offered, just further personal opinion. Attempting to address any serious hobby matter here is very much like dealing with a group of small children - if the answers offered don't seem to agree with what most want things to be, then the answers are regarded as being untrue...no matter what evidence is provided. In this current thread, mere personal conjecture is taken to trump observation and numbers would undoubtedly do no better. Even more disappointing is that nothing in the way even observational counter evidence is offered, only that my observations be mistaken because they point toward an unpleasant situation for the hobby.
I do not wish this to sound hostile but in the particular instance of your posts, you disagree with what I've said and insist that my take is not substantiated. So, I've asked repeatedly for you to explain and/or demonstrate how the Internet (or whatever you think will serve as a replacement for LHS) is, or will be, employed as a valid and successful means of introducing the hobby to those of the general public not previously exposed to model trains. If you could offer anything of substance, then perhaps one might be able to attempt to compare that to the job the vanishing hobbyshops have done in the past. So far, I've seen nothing from you other than complaining that my position is incorrect and lacks evidence. Will anything in the way of counter evidence, or of any substance at all that contributes to this thread's question, be forthcoming from you?
CNJ831
Hey guys............come on over and play with the electric trains, then youse guys may choose your weapons.
When I wrote the original post for this chat group it was just after our spring show, and I was indeed concerned about our future. The thrust was to wake up and smell the outhouse.
All of my comments about the future are indceed conjecture, but based on decades in the hobby........many being as a professional. If facts are to be compared, then there must be a fallacy somewhere. To me a fact must be a fact.................otherwise pure conjecture!!
I'm gonna stand down, unless something profound is posted..................got a railroad to run!!!
There are a few things an LHS can do that on-line retailers can't and I really think they should exploit these opportunities:
Service: Howard touched on how good and how poor it can be. A hobby store should be more than a warehouse of train stuff. People go to businesses where they feel valued and validated. Shop owners should show an interest in their customers and do everything they can to make them successful. A LHS should never forget that it costs a customer time and fuel to visit their store - they should come away with something (at least a good feeling) every time they visit.
I urge LHSs to be innovative, too. Here are a couple of suggestions:
The other place where an LHS can win is shipping time. Keep track of how much you sell and of which products. Learn to predict when you'll run out and order in time to restock before the bin is empty. On those occasions that the bin is empty, offer to have the item shipped directly to the customer's home and eat the shipping cost. You may lose a couple of bucks, but you'll get it to them faster than they can get it online - you'll build loyalty and keep a customer.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
CNJ831 wrote:The joke here is that the posting of actual numerical results of surveys appears to mean absolutely nothing toward substantiating a position here. I've posted valid figures more than once on differing subjects on this forum. However, in doing so, such numbers were immediately claimed to be not representative, bias, or irrelevant, even though based on published hobby sources others could consult for themselves, simply because they were counter to the group's general "opinion" of things. And, of course, no substantial or verifiable counter evidence is ever offered, just further personal opinion. Attempting to address any serious hobby matter here is very much like dealing with a group of small children - if the answers offered don't seem to agree with what most want things to be, then the answers are regarded as being untrue...no matter what evidence is provided. In this current thread, mere personal conjecture is taken to trump observation and numbers would undoubtedly do no better. Even more disappointing is that nothing in the way even observational counter evidence is offered, only that my observations be mistaken because they point toward an unpleasant situation for the hobby.I do not wish this to sound hostile but in the particular instance of your posts, you disagree with what I've said and insist that my take is not substantiated. So, I've asked repeatedly for you to explain and/or demonstrate how the Internet (or whatever you think will serve as a replacement for LHS) is, or will be, employed as a valid and successful means of introducing the hobby to those of the general public not previously exposed to model trains. If you could offer anything of substance, then perhaps one might be able to attempt to compare that to the job the vanishing hobbyshops have done in the past. So far, I've seen nothing from you other than complaining that my position is incorrect and lacks evidence. Will anything in the way of counter evidence, or of any substance at all that contributes to this thread's question, be forthcoming from you?CNJ831
To quote Ronald Reagan, "Well, there you go again". You continue to insist that I present evidence to substantiate my position while you feel to express yours without any evidence of your own. You may well have offered evidence on other subjects in other threads but you have offered absolutely nothing of the sort in this thread. The fact is, neither of us has offered any evidence to substantiate our opinions and observations on this subject. Apparently it is OK for you to do so but you insist I provide more. Please explain the double standard.
Your whole argument is that hobby shops have been a fertile ground for recruiting new modelers who don't already have an interest in the hobby. In an earlier post you claimed this is self evident which it most certainly is not. First of all, you have to get the kid into the LHS. If he's not coming in for the trains, he's coming in for something that he is interested in. I suppose it is possible that such a kid could see something in the model train section that could catch his eye and get him started in model railroading, but I would wager few come to the hobby that way. I would argue that it is just as possible that a kid is going to get hooked on model railroading through the internet. Anyone who has ever googled for information or used some other search engine knows you get a lot of unintended hits and sometimes these turn out to be more interesting than what was initially sought. Just as it is possible for a kid to get hooked on trains by a wandering eye in a LHS, he could accidentally get his interest sparked while searching for something else online. I doubt we are going to get a lot of new recruits to the hobby through such serendipity, whether it be at the LHS or online. I think most of the new blood will be brought into the hobby by friends or relatives introducing them to it. A few might stumble onto the hobby through other means, such as through an LHS, an internet search, or as was my case, when I came across an issue of Model Railroader back in the mid 1970s. However, I think it is quite a stretch to suggest that the closing of hobby shops is going to mean the loss of the most effective means of recruiting new modelers. I just don't believe it happens that way very often.
Howard Zane wrote: Hey guys............come on over and play with the electric trains, then youse guys may choose your weapons.When I wrote the original post for this chat group it was just after our spring show, and I was indeed concerned about our future. The thrust was to wake up and smell the outhouse.All of my comments about the future are indceed conjecture, but based on decades in the hobby........many being as a professional. If facts are to be compared, then there must be a fallacy somewhere. To me a fact must be a fact.................otherwise pure conjecture!!I'm gonna stand down, unless something profound is posted..................got a railroad to run!!!HZ
I doubt any of us really have a problem with anything you said in your first post or in subsequent posts, Howard. Your words are an expression of legitimate concern. What causes the real brouhaha around here is the incessant drumbeat of gloom and doom by a single individual who claims to be the world's greatest living authority on the hobby past and present.
jecorbett wrote:...A few might stumble onto the hobby through other means, such as through an LHS, an internet search, or as was my case, when I came across an issue of Model Railroader back in the mid 1970s. ...
...A few might stumble onto the hobby through other means, such as through an LHS, an internet search, or as was my case, when I came across an issue of Model Railroader back in the mid 1970s. ...
Yep, that's how I got started. Came across the Nov 71 Model Railroader in the PX newstand in Germany.
Enjoy
Paul
Jimmydieselfan wrote:I think the main reason that hobby shops will keep on closing is the fact that almost all of them charge MSRP. Those prices are almost always 30-40% more than ''internet prices''.
I think the main reason that hobby shops will keep on closing is the fact that almost all of them charge MSRP. Those prices are almost always 30-40% more than ''internet prices''.
I recently spoke to the owner of a HobbyTown about his prices. He said they are set by corporate HQ. The HQ sets prices based on the distributors. (Horizon in this case) He said Horizons dealer prices are not good at all. HobbyTown is negotiating with Tower Hobbies right now trying to get a better deal so they can lower their prices. I wonder how much of this problem lies with the big distributors and not the "greedy" LHS?? If a big nationwide chain like HT is having trouble getting good prices, what chance does a single mom&pop store have?The owner said he's love to carry more train stuff, but it doesn't sell at the prices he's forced to charge. It was a pretty enlightening conversation...
IRONROOSTER wrote: jecorbett wrote: ...A few might stumble onto the hobby through other means, such as through an LHS, an internet search, or as was my case, when I came across an issue of Model Railroader back in the mid 1970s. ... Yep, that's how I got started. Came across the Nov 71 Model Railroader in the PX newstand in Germany.
jecorbett wrote: ...A few might stumble onto the hobby through other means, such as through an LHS, an internet search, or as was my case, when I came across an issue of Model Railroader back in the mid 1970s. ...
MR is how I got started, too. I was browsing magazines in the school library in 1969, picked up an innocent looking periodical, nothing has been the same since then. Perhaps MR should have a warning label.
loathar wrote:Craig- (just curious?) Do you have a brick&mortar store that's open to the public? I've heard stories of people trying to start on-line only stores and the distributors wouldn't sell to them without a separate building and address. Just wondering how true this is??
About 25 years ago, a fellow model railroader got an idea to buy wholesale from Walthers by starting his own hobby run out of his house. He intended to sell some goods to his friends that way but his main purpose was buy stuff for his own layout through his "store". He hit a brick wall when Walthers asked to see a picture of his store. Apparently, he wasn't the first one who got that idea. There was no online commerce back then but there were mail order houses. I don't know what the rules were back then as far as starting phone and mail order only businesses.
CNJ831 wrote: jecorbett wrote: Let me make this perfectly clear. My objections are not to the opinions you express on this forum. My objections are the way you come in here on your high horse demanding that others who want to express their opinions back up those opinions with what you deem to be "verifiable facts" while you feel free to express your own view sans such facts. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple. To me, a verifiable fact to support your position would be a survey which indicates that signficant numbers of new modelers became interested in model railroading while visiting a hobby shop for non railroading items. The joke here is that the posting of actual numerical results of surveys appears to mean absolutely nothing toward substantiating a position here. I've posted valid figures more than once on differing subjects on this forum. However, in doing so, such numbers were immediately claimed to be not representative, bias, or irrelevant, even though based on published hobby sources others could consult for themselves, simply because they were counter to the group's general "opinion" of things. And, of course, no substantial or verifiable counter evidence is ever offered, just further personal opinion. Attempting to address any serious hobby matter here is very much like dealing with a group of small children - if the answers offered don't seem to agree with what most want things to be, then the answers are regarded as being untrue...no matter what evidence is provided. In this current thread, mere personal conjecture is taken to trump observation and numbers would undoubtedly do no better. Even more disappointing is that nothing in the way even observational counter evidence is offered, only that my observations be mistaken because they point toward an unpleasant situation for the hobby.I do not wish this to sound hostile but in the particular instance of your posts, you disagree with what I've said and insist that my take is not substantiated. So, I've asked repeatedly for you to explain and/or demonstrate how the Internet (or whatever you think will serve as a replacement for LHS) is, or will be, employed as a valid and successful means of introducing the hobby to those of the general public not previously exposed to model trains. If you could offer anything of substance, then perhaps one might be able to attempt to compare that to the job the vanishing hobbyshops have done in the past. So far, I've seen nothing from you other than complaining that my position is incorrect and lacks evidence. Will anything in the way of counter evidence, or of any substance at all that contributes to this thread's question, be forthcoming from you?CNJ831
With posts like this and attitudes such as this I see a dim future for the hobby as why would anyone wish to participate if this is typical.
Crox wrote:With posts like this and attitudes such as this I see a dim future for the hobby as why would anyone wish to participate if this is typical.
Not to worry. All the seven dwarfs are represented in this hobby.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: Crox wrote:With posts like this and attitudes such as this I see a dim future for the hobby as why would anyone wish to participate if this is typical.Not to worry. All the seven dwarfs are represented in this hobby.
Ahhhhh, but who is who? and who decides?
jecorbett wrote: To quote Ronald Reagan, "Well, there you go again". You continue to insist that I present evidence to substantiate my position while you feel to express yours without any evidence of your own. You may well have offered evidence on other subjects in other threads but you have offered absolutely nothing of the sort in this thread. The fact is, neither of us has offered any evidence to substantiate our opinions and observations on this subject. Apparently it is OK for you to do so but you insist I provide more. Please explain the double standard.
Another good quote is, "Now pay attention and you might learn something!" You will find that I do not post to this, or any other forum, regarding such a discussion without having first done my homework. I always have the facts that back me up at the ready. However, as I've said, facts around here mean little because of the group's refusal to accept anything regarding the hobby that is not absolutely all sunshine and roses. Folks here are in for some very rude awakenings over the course of the next ten years or so.
In fact, I had consulted several hundred MR author's bios spanning a number of years since 2000 before first posting. While some were too brief to be of use, some failing to address how the initial interest arose, or were one sentence bio's of authors with already long association with the magazine, a very substantial number did cite the desired information. The breakdown of that data went as follows:
Electric trains in childhood 60%
Influenced by hobby mag/visit hobbyshop 20%
Family member in real railroading 12%
Other 7%
Other than having received Lionel, Flyer, Marx, or a scale train set as a present (Christmas most often cited), as I had pointed out very early on, hobby shops and the magazines obtained therein, turned out to be a very important element in the past for recruiting new hobbyists. This is a type of hands-on exposure that the Internet can not offer.
So, I now await the rush of countering facts and figures from those critical of my posts...not that I honestly expect to see anything other than more of the usual bovine scat.
CNJ831 wrote:...In fact, I had consulted several hundred MR author's bios spanning a number of years since 2000 before first posting. While some were too brief to be of use, some failing to address how the initial interest arose, or were one sentence bio's of authors with already long association with the magazine, a very substantial number did cite the desired information. The breakdown of that data went as follows:Electric trains in childhood 60%Influenced by hobby mag/visit hobbyshop 20%Family member in real railroading 12%Other 7% Other than having received Lionel, Flyer, Marx, or a scale train set as a present (Christmas most often cited), as I had pointed out very early on, hobby shops and the magazines obtained therein, turned out to be a very important element in the past for recruiting new hobbyists. This is a type of hands-on exposure that the Internet can not offer. So, I now await the rush of countering facts and figures from those critical of my posts...not that I honestly expect to see anything other than more of the usual bovine scat. CNJ831
...In fact, I had consulted several hundred MR author's bios spanning a number of years since 2000 before first posting. While some were too brief to be of use, some failing to address how the initial interest arose, or were one sentence bio's of authors with already long association with the magazine, a very substantial number did cite the desired information. The breakdown of that data went as follows:
Going with the spirit of: "Now pay attention you might learn something!" I have to tell you that although your research is thorough and informative, it's not accurate. There is no way that every single model railroader has been interviewed to assess how he/she got in this hobby. The data you gathered can be categorized as a rough guesstimate and if this were a court of law, I'd call it circumstantial.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
That's interesting and indicates that among MR authors only 10% were introduced through the hobby shop (Assuming the magazine and hobby shop split 50-50). But the overwhelming number were through trains in their childhood. This would indicate that getting trains into Toy R Us is important.
Unfortunately, this type of survey is by it's nature not a representative sampling of model railroaders. It's also, probably age biased since those who write articles tend to have been in the hobby awhile.
Still and all, it does suggest that the hobby shop is not very important to the future of the hobby. But Thomas the Tank Engine is - I guess it's a good thing he's so popular.
Thanks for sharing
In the first place, surveys (mentioned in an earlier post of yours) are not scientifically valid polls, in part since the respondents are self selected. The same goes for the above, as well as the objection that a few hundred MR authors does not define the universe of model railroaders. I assume that I would be in the "other" category since what really got me going is the fact that we lived close to a D&RGW branch line when I was in kindergarten and I happened to be fascinated by the smoke belching monsters that kept its rails shiny. This was followed by a couple of years in Mojave during the final years of SP steam operation over Tehachapi and a visit to an club show at the Antelope Valley Fairgrounds where I found out that scale model railroading existed. The discovery of hobby shops and MR only reinforced what was already there.
I had trains in childhood as a result of my exposure to the real thing earlier, it wasn't a case that I got interested in trains with my first electric train set. I won't even presume to guess how others ACTUALLY came by their interest as opposed to what they might say in their bios. For instance, how many of those who say they were influenced by entering a hobby shop were actually interested in trains when they first walked in. Did they walk in alone or were they in the company of a relative who was already in the hobby?
You're not even asking the really interesting questions. How many who did have electric trains never entered the hobby subsequently? What proportion of the population that did have electric trains as a kid actually become model railroaders later? This would give some kind of info as to the relative influence of the electric train. How many of those who got electric trains were already interested in the prototype before they received the train set perhaps as a result of a parent recognizing the kid's interest and trying to encourage it in toy form since it also neatly coincided with the myth of the perfect family so artfully used as a marketing ploy by the folks at Lionel? Of course, Lionel was only exploiting the myth that was already out there.
The 12% who got into the hobby ostensibly as a result of a family member being a railroader is rather interesting. Unfortunately, that influence today is probably minimal given that railroad employment fell from about 1.5 million in 1947 to 224,000 in 2004, a factor of nearly 7. http://www.railserve.com/employment.html (you're not the only one who looks up things). Since the 12% figure represents approximately 1 in 8 model railroaders, it's a self-evident truth (you're evil, Andre) that we have to do something to compensate for the loss of a significant factor. Given the 60% figure you cited for electric trains as an influence, it's also a self-evident truth (Satan his own self stands in awestruck admiration at the depth of your evil, Andre) that what we gotta do is buy kids/grandkids train sets just as fast as our incomes will allow. Not only that, we've got to drag them into hobby shops whether they want to go or not. Naturally, we also have to buy them subscriptions to MR, RMC, CTT, Garden Railways, Trains, Railfan, and any other railroad/model railroad publication that we can. It's a self-evident truth, isn't it?
I'm doing my part. What are you doing? Or would you rather have the hobby die so that you can be proved right?
"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,As he landed his crew with care;Supporting each man on the top of the tideBy a finger entwined in his hair.
"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:That alone should encourage the crew.Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:What i tell you three times is true."
Excerpt from "The Hunting Of The Snark" by Lewis Carroll
You seem to have an unusual interest in bovine scat. Is there something you're not telling us?
Peace out,
It is a topic that always finds its way to this point, but has never seemed to be able to get past it. So, Howard, with my compliments and regrets, I'm going to close your thread.