Often I see posts about local hobby shops closing for one reason or another, and this is worrisome for me as it should be for all. Todays trends towards hobby purchases have changed drastically, mostly favoring on line buying. Many fine shops have joined the 21st century and do business through their sites, but then again, many don't. The major purchases such as locos and electronics are most definitely made on line and through eBay. This leaves many shops just selling staples...............you know the stuff that is essential to build a model railroad like spikes, track, paint, glue, etc. for the bulk of their business. I doubt seriously that these staples will be found on line, but hobby shops are and always have been the source of these items. They don't turn much of a profit, but they are carried more as a service hoping to gain loyality. The major purchases could be the difference between survial and failure for these shops. Price seems to be the driving force and we are mostly driven to find the lowest possible price....and understandly so. Some have said that if the shops can't make it, it's their own fault, and there is much truth to that, but lets look a bit into the future.
I'm the co-founder of the Great Scale Model Train Show in Timonium, MD, and during the 26 years of the show, I've seen many changes............mainly the higher age of our attendees and fewer numbers. The hobby still is strong, but besides the train shows and club open houses, where are new folks going to find out about our hobby? On line train purchases seem to appeal to those who are searching for a particular item and for the best price. One has to see model trains in the flesh to become inspired and have one on one contact with the seller to answer the many inevitable questions.
My best advice is to find a fine shop and support it as much as possible, as in essence this shop is supporting the hobby for you. I'm afraid once their numbers really dwindle, so will the hobby.......not tomorrow, not even the next decade, but I'm thinking about the wonderful enjoyment my grandkids and great grandkids could miss, by not playing with model trains.
A small closing note...........I have a decent size model railroad, been published and videoed.....even wrote a book on it, but none of this would have happened had it not been for a wonderful shop in Getteysburg, PA..........Tommy Gilbert's Hobby Shop. Tommy like most shops will work with a buyer price wise if asked and responded to with the promise of repeated business. Sure I could have found better prices............but not with Tommy's excellent service. I have literally run out of supplies at 3PM and a call to Tommy would result in a replenishment by the next morning. On occasion he has had manufacterers ship items to me direct. In addition Tommy has stood behind everything. Yup, I give much credit to this wonderful shop. There are more.................just find them and work with them, and I can almost promise similar results.
HZ
There has been a lot about this issue and I guess the market ultimately decides. With communication and media like it is today there are multiple forms of inpsiration and you don't have to see it in the flesh. The videos on you-tube, magazines, books like your own all inspire me to try for better results.
I buy from LHS and internet - I don't think we can be labelled as one type of buyer or another. We use multiple forms of shopping.
The big issue is the disparity in prices that seem to be ever widening between on-line and local. I've recently purchased sound decoders over the internet at well under half the price of the LHS.
In truth when the LHS started adding 50 cents to the price of my regular magazine I decided that this was a step too far and ultimately short sighted. Yes I want to support local traders but in return don't insult me if you want my custom.
Yes, loyalty & price seem to always be at odds. I wouldn't mind paying 10%-12% more at the local Hobby shop. The reality is that our only area train shop charges list price & I can save $100 on a spectrum loco from a number of mail order shops. What price loyalty? I do buy most of my new released rolling stock at the LHS because even if the % of markup is high, the dollar amount isn't that much.
Judging from the size of your layout I can see why the LHS treats you well. We owners of much smaller layouts don't create the volume that you do, so we don't get that special service.I am very sad to see the LHS closing. As a kid every town had a hobby shop with various amounts of trains. With the price of gasoline & possibly the saving of sales tax if you order out of state plus the discount at mail order dealers, I see a dim future for hobby or train shops.
Jerryl
Actually the shop in Gettysburg just does business that way. I'm far from his best or his largest customer. I've done business with this shop when I had a much smaller train set......still the same fine service!
It could be as in many cases, things are changing. Having owned a fairly large hobby shop years ago, I could have a different insight. I also realize that nessessity is the mother of invention. Trends do change and the LHS must adjust, or sink......or could start a new trend!!
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
It's not just the hobby retail industry that is changing, though. It is all retail. Life is all about change. If the hobby has merits it will survive. There are certainly a lot of "newbies" on this forum! That is a good sign.
Besides, online shopping had been great for modelers in small towns and rural areas. Don't forget that.
PMeyer wrote: It's not just the hobby retail industry that is changing, though. It is all retail. Life is all about change. If the hobby has merits it will survive. There are certainly a lot of "newbies" on this forum! That is a good sign.Besides, online shopping had been great for modelers in small towns and rural areas. Don't forget that.
Yeah, it's a modern day version of the old Sears catalog. Sears would provide virtually anything your heart desired short of perishable items. At one point, you could even order a kit for a house which you could either build yourself or hire the work out. Presumably, those who had their kit houses built for them were laughed at for "Dreaming, Planning and Buying".
Andre
Hi Gang
I posted a couple days ago about a local shop (1 hour drive from me) closeing its store but keeping the online part open. I have bought 99% of my DCC products from them. Mostly online and at shows when they set up. My LHS is just a couple blocks from work and like Howard had put it, Staples are the norm. They are freindly and I get a discount for beeing in a local club. Without the LHS I would not have modules for the shows or the colection of freight cars and locos I have. They stay in buiseness because they are a mullty hobby shop. They have RC cars,Boats,Planes, model rockets, doll house, Z to G MR. Plus any hobby you can think of. They also have a train club on the top floor thats N to G layouts. They are thinking of taking the DCC plunge but thats a ways off.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
andrechapelon wrote: PMeyer wrote: It's not just the hobby retail industry that is changing, though. It is all retail. Life is all about change. If the hobby has merits it will survive. There are certainly a lot of "newbies" on this forum! That is a good sign.Besides, online shopping had been great for modelers in small towns and rural areas. Don't forget that.Yeah, it's a modern day version of the old Sears catalog. Sears would provide virtually anything your heart desired short of perishable items. At one point, you could even order a kit for a house which you could either build yourself or hire the work out. Presumably, those who had their kit houses built for them were laughed at for "Dreaming, Planning and Buying".Andre
I've even seen HO laser cut kits for some of those mailorder houses! I forget who makes them right now.
PMeyer wrote: andrechapelon wrote: PMeyer wrote: It's not just the hobby retail industry that is changing, though. It is all retail. Life is all about change. If the hobby has merits it will survive. There are certainly a lot of "newbies" on this forum! That is a good sign.Besides, online shopping had been great for modelers in small towns and rural areas. Don't forget that.Yeah, it's a modern day version of the old Sears catalog. Sears would provide virtually anything your heart desired short of perishable items. At one point, you could even order a kit for a house which you could either build yourself or hire the work out. Presumably, those who had their kit houses built for them were laughed at for "Dreaming, Planning and Buying".AndreI've even seen HO laser cut kits for some of those mailorder houses! I forget who makes them right now.
This help? http://www.muddycreekrr.com/laserkits.htm
Branchline also offers some from Sears and Aladdin: http://www.jaystrains.com/HO-HOn3/Structures/hostr4.htm (Page down, there are several)
Howard:
I traveled all the way From Charlotte, NC to attend that show in Timonium last Saturday.
My compliments. It's a great show. When I told people how great it was, they all told me that it used to be much bigger. I have trouble picturing that. It's pretty big now. I only spent $350 at it, but I have several business cards from vendors that I WILL be contacting in the future.
I am fortunate. My local hobby shop is within walking distance of my house. (Less than a mile.)
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I always try my LHS first, and they always let me know the result. There's only been a few things I've ordered online or mail-order (remember that?). If they tell me a manufacturer gave them a hard time I just won't buy the thing. Example: I want to buy 1 engine and the LHS has to order 12 or 20 or some huge dollar amount minimum, or send money in advance. Don't blame people who buy on the internet for the decline of the LHS, that would be the new folks getting into the hobby buying trains like they buy everything else. Looking for the best deal. The suppliers and wholesalers are the biggest problem, they have been selling direct for years, and don't ask us to buy 12 engines or $5,000 just to do business with them.
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
I see model railroading becoming more or less a largely historical hobby just like the popular hobby of WWII model airplanes.
Even though the prototype doesn't exist now except as the rare operational plane at air shows, it's still a popular hobby.
ITS ALL ABOUT THE MEDIA IN THE 21ST CENTURY
I think we underestimate the power of the media in the lives of our children and grandchildren.
They see WWII aircraft in movies, in computer games, on the internet, and learn about them in history class at school, etc. Same story with trains.
Trains show up in many movies on TV and at the theater, not to mention the popular train centric Thomas TV series and the recent Polar Express movie, and the older Back to the Future part III. I know when I have gone to the WGH shows, they have been packed to the walls with parents and children clammoring for anything Thomas.
And I am aware of several railroad excursion lines who have run Polar Express excursions during the holidays to sold out crowds of parents and kids. All those kids are being exposed to the fascination of railroading, and some will grow up and go looking for a train-related hobby ... and notice, it was not a prototype that generated all this interest -- but the media!
Add to all this the fact that overseas, high speed rail service is taking on the airlines with a vengeance. The Chunnel train, for example, now books more passenger miles between London and France than the airlines. The wild success of high speed rail service overseas is getting the US to look seriously at high-tech high speed rail transport here domestically.
DOES MODEL RAILROADING HAVE A FUTURE IN THE 21ST CENTURY?
I see many reasons that model railroading could still be something children routinely experience and find fascinating well into the 21st century. I don't expect model trains to ever regain the fad toy status they had among the public in the 50s and 60s, but neither do I see trains fading into oblivion as a fascinating hobby for at least some segment of the global population.
And with the internet, anyone on the planet who shares a fascination with historical railroad modeling will be able to easily meet and create a critical mass of interest online.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
I owned a vitamin store. It was supported by my mail order/Internet Business but when I sold it in 2000, the store could not hold it's own against Walmart. I lowered my prices to the point that my profit margin was a break even, bur people were content to buy cheap products at lower prices.
I could not sell quality and compete with Walmart.
I closed the store for good last year. IT was not a matter of service because I knew more about supplements and could direct people to supplements that would make a difference. But price was always a factor for people and I could sustain my low prices.
The world is a different place than it was. We have two choices, adapt or complain.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I've also been preaching buy from your LHS or lose, but often I don't heed my own words. Especially for the big ticket items that shops need to survive. It's a matter of money of course - if I didn't buy items online, then I would never have been able to buy them at the LHS. The LHS is losing my business I guess, but since I couldn't pay their prices I would not have bought from them.
Most of my recent purchases have been On30 equipment. My LHS and the next one 100 miles away do not carry On30. One in a farther away city does, and I always drop in when I'm visiting. A few years ago I really wanted one of the Bachmann On30 Shays; I believe the U.S. list price was around $275.00. This shop had one, for $375.00 Canadian. Adding in our 14& tax (at the time), the model would have cost me over $400.00. No way would I or could I pay that much! The Shays were available online from U.S. shops for around $125.00. With the extra shipping charges to Canada, and the tax, I could have gotten the Shay for $200.00 delivered. Half the LHS price.
So my support for the LHS only goes so far!
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
The real problem is this.
1. online shops discount as high as 30% off the list. Usually working on 10% to 22% of the list less freight costs and other costs for orders.
2. how much paint, detail parts and other little things does it take in just one day to break even on daily operating costs for a LHS.
3. customers assume you will order it in for them, without giving a deposit. My local dealer told me if you want a product you have 30 days from the annoucement, then you run the risk that I can't get the product.
4. Hobby shops and staff do not have the same learning curve to grasp this new age technlgy especially DCC, which is the key driver to revenue for anyone now adays. My LHS, owners son who's 22 and who writes computer code grasps the high tech products better than the father. So the father uses the son for customer support and such.
5. The used market is showing right now to have more value than the new market. With costs increasing for new runs, some people are looking for 2nd hand locos of past runs for layouts.
Bottom line is this, all consumers are price sensitive on all products. Remember do you feel more comforable recieving support in person or over the phone with someone trying to help you fix the problem.
With everything in life comes change, if people accept change good things will happen, if they refuse well i hope they have a life jacket to save them.
CASO
I was at a LHS that is small but ih ave still done business with them. I walked into buy some intermountain 33' wheels and we were talking about future releases of engine. He told me that he was no longer going to pre-order any BLI engines due to issues with ordering. He says that FDT will sell and release before most distributors will even get them in stock. He says they like to sell what they can themselves then dump the left overs on to the distrubutors than of course the LHS. I can see the LHS are getting the pinch from their distributors. I do not purchase many engines form the LHS but somtimes I will. One thing he told me was that the blue line duplex coming out is not scheduled to arrive at his distributors until the end of the month. Though FDT and Walthers show it available. That is not cool to do business this way. kinda greedy to choose who gets to sell it first.
I think if there is any real problem looming it is Preorder Syndrome.
The trend towards products being announced but with release dates that are as shaky as a forced-retirement bomb disposal expert trying to solder a Z scale decoder while riding a bus over a PA highway risks putting folks on both sides of the cash register (or online shopping cart) off of the hobby altogether.
I could spend my whole day just trying to keep track of these ever shifting dates!
Craig
DMW
lhs lost my interest when they went ready to run. i want to build my cars. i want reasonable costs on groups of cars.
on line is a chance, will it come broke? will it be up to quality. i am a spur of the moment buyer if i see something i like, color ,road, design. i buy
lhs for trains only is long gone. so they have to divest to survive
the hobby wont die but it will need life support cause when it comes down to eating corn or using it for fuel for electricty the motor of the world will slow down
I couldn't be back into model railroading without online shopping. I live in a rural area and the nearest hobby shop that carries model railroad equipment is 65 miles away. I would love to be able to go into a shop and visit with other hobbyists and actually look at an item before I purchased it. But the demographics of this area just won't support a business like that.
Jeff
Phoebe Vet wrote: Howard:I traveled all the way From Charlotte, NC to attend that show in Timonium last Saturday.My compliments. It's a great show. When I told people how great it was, they all told me that it used to be much bigger. I have trouble picturing that. It's pretty big now. I only spent $350 at it, but I have several business cards from vendors that I WILL be contacting in the future.I am fortunate. My local hobby shop is within walking distance of my house. (Less than a mile.)
Hey Phoebe....I was under the Impression that Charlotte lost it's only MRR shop a few years back. I know the one went out of business back in 96 in 97, and the employees of that shop tried to make a go of a scale shop but that went under as well. I haven't lived in Charlotte since 98, so I have been slightly out of touch, has a new shop opened in the area?
I have paid anywhere from $3 to $7 to just walk in and look at a train show. All of the dealers selling new in box items, while maybe discounting a little, are still higher than you could get an item for on the internet. So I've realized that the premium you have to pay to "see and feel" an item before you buy is just not at a LHS, but also at shows. I got to wondering, if I asked my LHS owner (who sells at full retail ) if I paid him $7 every time I walked in, would he match any price (plus shipping) on the internet? Would he do it? Would many other buyers agree to this? This is not a serious question I'm looking for a debate on, but just some food for thought, when deciding to pay a little more at LHS or buy online.
Jim
highhood63 wrote: Phoebe Vet wrote: Howard:I traveled all the way From Charlotte, NC to attend that show in Timonium last Saturday.My compliments. It's a great show. When I told people how great it was, they all told me that it used to be much bigger. I have trouble picturing that. It's pretty big now. I only spent $350 at it, but I have several business cards from vendors that I WILL be contacting in the future.I am fortunate. My local hobby shop is within walking distance of my house. (Less than a mile.)Hey Phoebe....I was under the Impression that Charlotte lost it's only MRR shop a few years back. I know the one went out of business back in 96 in 97, and the employees of that shop tried to make a go of a scale shop but that went under as well. I haven't lived in Charlotte since 98, so I have been slightly out of touch, has a new shop opened in the area?
Hobbytown has two stores here, and there is a store in Gastonia that I have not been in.
The Trains only store in the Carolina Place Mall was not there for long, but malls are too expensive an environment.
Hobbytown is not trains only, but they have a good selection of trains on hand, are great to deal with, and can order anything that Walthers carries.
Howard Zane wrote: Often I see posts about local hobby shops closing for one reason or another, and this is worrisome for me as it should be for all. Todays trends towards hobby purchases have changed drastically, mostly favoring on line buying. Many fine shops have joined the 21st century and do business through their sites, but then again, many don't.
Often I see posts about local hobby shops closing for one reason or another, and this is worrisome for me as it should be for all. Todays trends towards hobby purchases have changed drastically, mostly favoring on line buying. Many fine shops have joined the 21st century and do business through their sites, but then again, many don't.
While I look in on this forum only around once a week and have thus come in late on this thread, I must say that Howard seems to be one of the few folks here close enough to the real workings of the hobby to honestly have an appreciation of the consequences of what we see happening in the commercial end of model railroading today. I'm certainly glad to see him voice his concern, Howard being something of a recognized hobby authority (master model railroader, former brass dealer, major hobby promoter and author). It is sad that so few here seem to understand the magnitude of the repercussions it presents.
Brick and mortar hobby shops are disappearing because, through a dramatic decline in their customer base/profit margin, they are rapidly becoming no longer ecconomically viable as a business enterprise. Established shops that are put up for sale, or those that go on the market because their owners wish to retire, typically don't sell and simply go out of business. When potential buyers (or their financial backers) look seriously into the way the wind is blowing for this type of business, they quickly decide to steer well clear of them.
It is fact that a strictly brick and mortar shop can not compete successfully for any length of time with solely on-line dealers/discounters, who have virtually no overhead, nor in-depth stock to maintain. Manufacturer's pricing has reached the point that few hobbyists are willing to purchase expensive items other than on-line, cutting deeply into the viability of LHS operation. Shops can not remain in business for long with just the sale of stripwood and glue. Whereas many large cities had as many as 100 hobby shops shortly after WWII (and every small community had at least one or two), such figures have dwindled to the point where good, well established, shops are becoming as scarce as hen's teeth today...and one sees extremely few new, train-only, examples opening. Those that do, generally don't last too long.
That many suggest the disappearance of hobby shops is simply a sign of the times and does no real harm to the hobby itself, is extremely short sighted. Visiting the LHS has always been a great source of inspiration and a primary stimulus for new modelers through exposure. While many champion the Net and on-line media sources as today quickly replacing the LHS and the hardcopy publications, these work well only for those already in the hobby...they do not serve to recruit new members into the hobby.
As indicated, interest in model railroading is clearly generated by exposure to trains, be they real, miniature, or electric toys. That is something that is almost totally lacking in today's society. The LHS is one of the last important existing examples of broad public exposure for our hobby. There simply is no evidence, whatever, to suggest that a one-time visit to some train show, or a pre-K child's enthusiasm for Thomas, results in any life-long interest in model railroading. I find it interesting that Joe F. has now put forth in this thread the concept that the great interest in model trains from the late 1940's through the 1960's was something of a "fad" and that it is unlikely to ever be repeated, or even approached. I would hasten to point out that this "fad" encompassed an entire generation of Americans, the Boomers, and it is the progeny of that specific era that consitutes at least 70% of hobbyists active today and making the hobby of model railroading what it is. Just what will be left of our hobby when this generation's numbers begin to seriously dwindle over the next decade and hobby participation should return fully to the "pre-fad" levels, as Joe suggests (i.e. about 25,000 hobbyists, or less)? Think prices are high now and product runs limited? You've seen only the beginning of such things so far. The same goes for the viability of the hobby magazines, if true, which would likely all morph into simply annual, or bi-annual, pretty picture "Greatest Model Railroads Of...", augmented by a great proliferation of extra cost, how-to publications. Will there always be model railroaders? Probably so. But their future numbers will likely be very small, relative to today, specifically because of the hobby's almost total lack of exposure and the likelihood of an enormously high cost in participation.
Now I fully expect that the same cast of uninformed colleagues here will quickly raise their voices to refute what I've pointed out above. But, for a decided change of pace, if you have a differing point of view, how about offering your take on the situation backed by some varifiable facts, not the typical irrelavent nonsense and bovine scat?
CNJ831
JWhite wrote: I couldn't be back into model railroading without online shopping. I live in a rural area and the nearest hobby shop that carries model railroad equipment is 65 miles away. I would love to be able to go into a shop and visit with other hobbyists and actually look at an item before I purchased it. But the demographics of this area just won't support a business like that. Jeff
There's a paradox of model railroading: those who live in areas where the real estate for a large layout is more affordable tend to live further away from the urban centers that can actually support a decent hobby shop!
I spent the first half of my life as an avid hobbyist who lived hours away from a decent hobby shop.
I agree with CNJ for the most part with one exception:
The on-line dealers definitely have overhead. Having owned both an online business and an identical brick and mortar store,I can tell you the net profit margin for both the store and the Internet operation were exactly the same. The cost of the product is lower for the consumer, but the Internet retailer is looking for increased volume and automated systems to make up the difference. This, of course, excludes smaller eBayer, but the major Internet players are faced with the same competition for your on-line dollars that used to be the domain of the shops.