aloco,
TA said
You said they are worthy of upgrading? Didn't I already say that?
but he also compared Atlas Trainman (GP38) to train set stuff. To me there is a distinct difference to it being "trainset" quality and worthy of upgrading. Lets flesh this out. In the past, the typical train set engine was considered "junk" by most seasoned model railroaders. No, not even worthy of upgrading in 98% of the cases. It was because the shell was way too crude and the mechanism was hopelessly cheap and no basis for a good model layout for running. They are made for children to set up on the living room floor and run in circles until they are board and put it away.
I grant you that Walthers and Athearn have since the past 5 or so years offered some better quality train sets which we don't usually think of in the stereotypical sense. Those use essentiall the Athearn blue box or Walthers kit items which are offered in an RTR form. They are models which started out as decent quality kits that in many cases are reasonbly accurate copies of prototype cars, with body mounted couplers and better paint. I wanted to debunk the notion that Atlas Trainman rolling stock could be put in the same category as or traditional train set schlock.
Thank you Larry! Atlas Trainman is not Trainset quality stuff by traditional standards. One has to be on a pretty high pedistal to suggest it but I'm here to say, no. Train set schlock isn't even a good starting point to upgrade.
The Atlas Trainman GP38 really is probably better than the good old bullet proof Athearn blue box loco's (never put in the train set category by 99% of modelers I should say!). And, the upgrading necessary to make the GP38 a nice layout model isn't great. Add some grab irons, a new horn a couple other items, weather it, and I imagine many long time modelers visiting a layout would be fooled.
-----
Anyway, yes, Athearns long time achilles heal is still the running quality. Its not consistant. I have some SD50's that run pretty quiet and smooth, yet others are reporting noisy engines from the RTR line within recent months. I to am looking forward to the SD45, and have all three on order. The telling reason for me is that they have the right shade orange (as opposed to P2k) and come with the correct low nose signal light. Its only the 2nd plastic model ever produced to include this important D&RGW detail! The SD40T-2 of October was the first! I bought 7 of those!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
At one time Athearn led the way to HO modeling and trains with the blue box engines and cars, I would hate to think of how many different roads in engines and cars they have made. Athearn really set the pace back in the mid to lat 1960's when they faded out the hifi drive and went to shaft drive. The when the flywheel drives came, everyone was wanting them real bad. TYCO, Bachmann, AHM, and Round House struggled for years under the Athearn Rule. Athearn stayed on top until Atlas appeared in the mid 1970's with a new engine, I was a teen at that time. I had e fleet of gp9's, 35's, 40's, SD, and SW units in Athearn. My first Atlas engine was a ICG GP 38, wow! That set a new trend in the market, people could not order them fast enough. Sure there was allot of cheaper models with tiny motors, but at that time Atlas and Athearn were the rulers in the plastic world. Bachmann came out with the Spectrum line in the 80's and this was a good fair priced loco, and still is, they run decent and details are good.
When proto 200 entered the market it opened a whole new world to the MR. New details that were never seen before but on custom built units, super quiet drives. This opened a can of worms for all the manufactures in the MR industry. Kato, BLI, Rapido, you name it!!! What a wonderful world of tech improvements that have come along with the advent of lasers, cnc machine work, and super detailed cars and loco's.
We are going to see a steady war on improvements in the MR world. Who is going to remain on top, who knows? Everyday is a new day for new ideas and better models.
As for the question on what do we think of the new Athearn's? Good loco, fair price! And I will agree with others here to the split gear problem has been dragged through the hot coals for to long, it was an easy fix as far as I was concerened. As for my favorite loco manufacture? I like them all, but the battle to remain on top? It will never end.
Nice summary!
ICRR1964 wrote: As for the question on what do we think of the new Athearn's? Good loco, fair price! And I will agree with others here to the split gear problem has been dragged through the hot coals for to long, it was an easy fix as far as I was concerened. As for my favorite loco manufacture? I like them all, but the battle to remain on top? It will never end.
I agree, good loco and fair price Athearn is. I'm still very happy with the SD40T-2's. I have to pinch myself that I got a plastic loco with those long missing prototype details! I do have to dress it up a little as the pilot looks bare without the coupler lift bars and MU hoses but that should be easy to add.
Now that Athearn has upped the bar on nice details just about equaling or surpassing Proto 2000, they need to focus on smooth quiet drives. I'd pay an extra five or ten dollars to get a smooth quiet drive. I realize Athearn probably has been trying to stay below the magic number of $100 MSRP and I appreciate that. Time will tell.
I've got like 11 P2K GP30's and 6 more GPs and SD's so I know I'll have to tackel the infamous cracked gear problem when I get them running on a new layout eventually. BUt from what I understand, its a quick easy fix.
On thing I have to say about the manufacturers - they do seem to favor certain loco lines. KATO has been into the wide cab modern diesels in HO lately, Atlas has always been an eastern focus and only a bone to us western fans. But Athearn is dishing it up in a big way to western fans like SP and D&RGW etc etc! Woot!
Life Like did something that Atlas,Athearn and other manufacturers said couldn't be done.A highly detailed plastic locomotive..Well LL showed them it could be done by introducing a highly detailed BL2 that didn't exactly thrill that many modelers because it odd locomotive owned by few roads.The first FA1 with working fans was a improvement but,I believe the GP18 stole the show and set the market trend we enjoy today.Even at that Atlas wasn't in any hurry to play catch up with LL or anybody else including the Bachmann Spectrum GP30.
What hurt LL was the crack gear issue..Like it or not that played a major role because many couldn't see a high dollar engine with gear issues from the box easy fix or not and then they lost face with the first GP38-2 which was wrong from the word go.They had to revamp the dies and fix the many errors before the locomotive was finally produce.Then even today P2K is loosing ground because of various detail errors and who can forget the "Gear ratio of the month" LL used? Then LL jack the price up just before selling their model lines to Walthers.
Walthers is suppose to standardize the P2K line with the more common 14:1 ratio.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Well, wasn't Uncle Irv still alive when LL began their Proto 2000 line? It wasn't until he blessedly passed on that new blood took over Athearn and things began to roll in the direction it did. I agree, the ugly BL2 wasn't exactly a great 1st choice. The FA was ok for some. The GP18 was the beginning of the good stuff. Quite frankly, LL had a policy in the 1990's of listening to us and implimenting running improvements. Then in the last 90's, around the time of the GP60, things started going funky and LL no longer seemed to responde to modeler concerns. The SD60 wide cab had a funky gap, the truck side frames were weirdly dimensioned, the color of some paint was off or inconsistant (Rio Grande was prime example of some were a great shade of orange and others a deep redish orange). Wierd gearing etc etc. I think Walthers taking over LL was probably a good move and will hopefullly turn it around. The F7's look great! Yeah, I remember the GP38-2 issue - Jim Six pointed that out on Atlas forums. Yeah, gear ratio of the month. Even under Walthers, the F7AB sets are pretty pricey. I think even with the 30% off, the non sound ones will still be close to $200.
3railguy wrote:I can't help but enjoy the noise and hot grease smell Athearn blue box engines make.
Well, it may all soon be a memory for me. I just sold another Athearn BB diesel, an SD40T-2, now that I have 8 of the new RTR SD40T-2's. All I have left now in the BB diesel line are two GP40-2's and one has the chassis in many pieces. Those are the last of the mohecans. Well, I do have one more dummy Athearn bb SD40T-2 I am thinking about making into the D&RGW version with the funky low nose light box which has the Mars gyra light on it.
I will agree to with the smell and the noise, the classic over wide cabs, motor noise cant be beat. There is nothing like getting out my old Athearns and putting them to work. I have a pair of sw7's that have I swear a million miles on them. Metal side frames, oilite bearings on the trucks, and the old black motors. These 2 loco's are so warn out they are just as quiet as my newer Proto's, and Atlas engines. Or should I say they are just broke in?
Never the less this was a good talk for everyone, we got all kinds of veiws and opinions, and they were all good ones. Cheers!
riogrande5761 wrote: [quote user="Artur with Athearn, but I haven't bought a lot of Athearn in the last few years. I got sick of them in the 60's and 70's, so tend to steer a path around them. BobObviously you have n't needed SD40T-2s or SD45T-2s! My guess is if you did, you'd be buying them in droves like I have.I'll make this point and drive it home, it all depends one what loco's and rolling stock you need. You can turn your nose up or not depending on that, basically.
[quote user="Artur
with Athearn, but I haven't bought a lot of Athearn in the last few years. I got sick of them in the 60's and 70's, so tend to steer a path around them. Bob
Bob
Obviously you have n't needed SD40T-2s or SD45T-2s! My guess is if you did, you'd be buying them in droves like I have.
I'll make this point and drive it home, it all depends one what loco's and rolling stock you need. You can turn your nose up or not depending on that, basically.
Well, actually since I model the Santa Fe and have for many years, I didn't buy either of the two you mentioned, and since I model the wheat fields and cities of Oklahoma, wouldn't be many running down there in 1989.
I bought a few of the new SD40-2, smoked decoders in two of them, then received the Kato Santa Fe SD40-2 I had on order and ordered 3 more. A little renumbering and I will be in hog heaven.
riogrande5761 wrote: Well, wasn't Uncle Irv still alive when LL began their Proto 2000 line? It wasn't until he blessedly passed on that new blood took over Athearn and things began to roll in the direction it did. I agree, the ugly BL2 wasn't exactly a great 1st choice. The FA was ok for some. The GP18 was the beginning of the good stuff. Quite frankly, LL had a policy in the 1990's of listening to us and implimenting running improvements. Then in the last 90's, around the time of the GP60, things started going funky and LL no longer seemed to responde to modeler concerns. The SD60 wide cab had a funky gap, the truck side frames were weirdly dimensioned, the color of some paint was off or inconsistant (Rio Grande was prime example of some were a great shade of orange and others a deep redish orange). Wierd gearing etc etc. I think Walthers taking over LL was probably a good move and will hopefullly turn it around. The F7's look great! Yeah, I remember the GP38-2 issue - Jim Six pointed that out on Atlas forums. Yeah, gear ratio of the month. Even under Walthers, the F7AB sets are pretty pricey. I think even with the 30% off, the non sound ones will still be close to $200.
Correct Uncle Irv was still alive but,paid no attention to the P2K BL2 like Atlas..Mrs.Athearn ran the show for awhile before selling out-a very good thing.Still Athearn was relying on the BB kits and finally introduce the first Genesis and few other units in the BB line..Along this time frame the Atlas/Kato partnership ended and Atlas started improving their locomotives but,still lagging behind and seem to take off like a big bird in the late 90s.As you know today they are sitting the detail bar a little higher with each new locomotive.
Athearn has made a turn around over the past few years but,and IMHO,they seem to spread their wings after the Horizon buy out.
IF they would only improve their drive with a Rocco motor for DCC compatibility...
I really like their RTR cars and haven't bought but 3 undec BB cars kits in the past 4 years.
My old worn GP38-2 draws 1/2 amp for a 2 unit consist and the wheels has turn silver..No kidding! I suspect the wheels worn down to the bare metal.I have no idea how many real miles or hours of operation my Athearn locomotives have.
As far as my newer RTR I been lucky with no defects all of mine are smooth runners.I only seen one GP35 that had issues..The flywheel was loose.
Along this time frame the Atlas/Kato partnership ended and Atlas started improving their locomotives but,still lagging behind and seem to take off like a big bird in the late 90s.As you know today they are sitting the detail bar a little higher with each new locomotive.
As for Atlas setting the detail bar higher, its a shame really because they don't hardly ever offer any diesels I need. The last Atlas diesel I bought was the GP40 (latest large herald Rio Grande) and before that, GP40's also. I have a few legacy RSD4/5's for Utah RR and an old yellow box RS3. Thats it. All the rest are KATO's or Athearn. I'd like to take advantage of Atlas's nice loco's but none fit D&RGW needs. After the late 60's, Rio Grande was pure EMD and Atlas is doing mostly others.
I actually haven't gotten many of the Athearn RTR stuff save the coal cars like the Orter 5-bay's (six 5-packs) and Thall coal gons (fifteen 5-packs and more coming). I got a couple of the CF4740 PS hoppers and a PS box car (old BB kits in RTR form), and one 65' mill gon. I've looked at some of the other newer covered hoppers at shows and they look really nice. I see on the website they have largely sold out unless its a new run so the stuff is really popular.
TA462 wrote: You even said yourself the roof walk is pretty gross looking on the CF4750 Thrall covered hopper. So you have a fairly accurate car with a gross looking roof walk, why would I buy it if I would rather have something with more detail?
Anyway, I understand we have standards - I wouldn't run a Tyco car either, but I suspect 95% of model RRers featured in any of our magazines wouldn't either. I only recall a few, like Model Power made a cylindrical hopper in the days when they weren't to be had by anyone else. There were articles on upgrading that "toy" car to model layout standards. But for the most part, it was extremely rare to see a toy train set freight car accepted and ran by the average model railroader.
Don't you think you would be farther ahead just buying a Genesis, Proto or Intermountain car? The price would be close to the same, cheaper if you factor in your time.
It seems we are just going on and repeating ourselves over and over again. You like the cars with no detail, great, good for you.
Jumbo size ladders and gross looking roof walks hardly make up for having a fairly accurate looking car or paint job.
There isn't any reason why we can't debate the merrits of our opinions and try to frame a persuasive argurment without it all going south. I don't feel like I'm insulting anyone and I feel my comments are completely consistant with average modeling practices I've read about for years. If you don't like something don't buy it. But I did feel I had to challenge some of the notions being made about some decent if lower detailed cars, namely they are not in the same class as traditional trainset toy quality junk. That is simply not a fair characterization. Many, like me, like Larry etc. feel Atlas Trainman cars have a place on a distinguished model layout. Even our esteemed Jim Eager (a Canadian BTW, and author of more articles that I can remember and books) has recommended the Atlas Trainman 3-bay coal car as a great stand-in for a prototype which it is a close match to. I'm not discussing this in public to change your mind if it isn't going to be changed. This isn't about your eternal soul. Others may be reading this wondering about Atlas Trainman and I don't want them to think they are toy train set junk - they aren't.
Cheers
Heh heh, my bad. No worries.
We are REALLY spoiled in the last five years, you are right about that. Send us back to the 80's and we'd be screaming like little valley girls poked with a stick! Helps to know the back ground. Since I've been in the hobby for 30+ years, I've been like the frog in the pot who doesn't feel the water getting to boiling point. I've been stuck with all the Athearn blue box and other lower quality stuff. Some things like the Front Range/McKean center beams will make you pull your hair out!
I too have really gotten spoiled with the RTR stuff and really, I'm glad it has come out, even if at high cost. Because like many modelers John Armstrong used to joke about, we had many more kits than we would ever build. I too have a large backlog, and since my wife kicked me out the house 7 years ago, I'd lost all motivation to build kits with itsy bitsy parts, like the P2K kits and the Intermountain kits. I even have one of those fancy tweezer style sprue nippers which do make the job way easier. I just don't like glue much and it always shows, no matter how hard I try.
But, if HQ RTR is all you have ever known, I can understand the reticence of considering items which are at a much lower level of detail. Since I've been without a layout for a while, one of my "hobbies" has been to take prototype pictures and try to find models made by any manufacturer (except Tyco, Life Like and Model Power) and match up model to prototype. More often that not, no model matches the prototype but in the last 10-15 years, there have been more and more, and its really cool. Being a western rail fan, especially SP and that region, I have loved the Genesis PC&F box car series! That was awesome! Expensive as they are I've got about 30 of them.
Well, and I have to say, getting back on topic, that alot of the newer Athearn RTR stuff is pretty good. Have you seen some of the newer tooled covered hoppers? 65' mill gon? And some of the upgraded Model Die Casting stuff like the 5-bay Ornter and the Thrall hi side gon, are amazing for the $12-13/ea street price. They have seperate grab irons and some of the old issues like misaligned ribs were fixed etc. Very nice stuff!
riogrande5761 wrote: Well, wasn't Uncle Irv still alive when LL began their Proto 2000 line? It wasn't until he blessedly passed on that new blood took over Athearn and things began to roll in the direction it did.
Well, wasn't Uncle Irv still alive when LL began their Proto 2000 line? It wasn't until he blessedly passed on that new blood took over Athearn and things began to roll in the direction it did.
I think that had a lot to do with The Athearn family not knowing the orient well enough to start managing and importing highly detailed, smooth running engines that are labor intensive to assemble and require high tech tooling. Lionel suffered the same fate until ex Bachman exec, Dick Maddox, took a short term job at Lionel and moved production overseas.
riogrande5761 wrote: Along this time frame the Atlas/Kato partnership ended and Atlas started improving their locomotives but,still lagging behind and seem to take off like a big bird in the late 90s.As you know today they are sitting the detail bar a little higher with each new locomotive.As for Atlas setting the detail bar higher, its a shame really because they don't hardly ever offer any diesels I need. The last Atlas diesel I bought was the GP40 (latest large herald Rio Grande) and before that, GP40's also. I have a few legacy RSD4/5's for Utah RR and an old yellow box RS3. Thats it. All the rest are KATO's or Athearn. I'd like to take advantage of Atlas's nice loco's but none fit D&RGW needs. After the late 60's, Rio Grande was pure EMD and Atlas is doing mostly others.I actually haven't gotten many of the Athearn RTR stuff save the coal cars like the Orter 5-bay's (six 5-packs) and Thall coal gons (fifteen 5-packs and more coming). I got a couple of the CF4740 PS hoppers and a PS box car (old BB kits in RTR form), and one 65' mill gon. I've looked at some of the other newer covered hoppers at shows and they look really nice. I see on the website they have largely sold out unless its a new run so the stuff is really popular.
Well many of the RTR cars sell out quickly depending on road name.
The 16K Slurry Tank car,the 30K Ethanol Tank car are very nice looking tankers that looks just as good as the Atlas and Walthers tank cars.
As you may have notice the PS2 2893,ACF 2970 and PS2 2003 has Photo-etched roof walks.Not bad for a car that sells less then $15.00 street price.
Now many of the newer 50 foot boxcars has separately applied grabirons, brake stand, brake wheel and underbody details for around $12.00 street price.
I agree Atlas has a small section of locomotives to include some oddities like the FM H15-44/H16-44 and of course the SD26.
Athearn,as I like to say(LOL),has more of a grab bag from steam locomotives to SD70s!