riogrande5761 wrote: Along this time frame the Atlas/Kato partnership ended and Atlas started improving their locomotives but,still lagging behind and seem to take off like a big bird in the late 90s.As you know today they are sitting the detail bar a little higher with each new locomotive.As for Atlas setting the detail bar higher, its a shame really because they don't hardly ever offer any diesels I need. The last Atlas diesel I bought was the GP40 (latest large herald Rio Grande) and before that, GP40's also. I have a few legacy RSD4/5's for Utah RR and an old yellow box RS3. Thats it. All the rest are KATO's or Athearn. I'd like to take advantage of Atlas's nice loco's but none fit D&RGW needs. After the late 60's, Rio Grande was pure EMD and Atlas is doing mostly others.I actually haven't gotten many of the Athearn RTR stuff save the coal cars like the Orter 5-bay's (six 5-packs) and Thall coal gons (fifteen 5-packs and more coming). I got a couple of the CF4740 PS hoppers and a PS box car (old BB kits in RTR form), and one 65' mill gon. I've looked at some of the other newer covered hoppers at shows and they look really nice. I see on the website they have largely sold out unless its a new run so the stuff is really popular.
Along this time frame the Atlas/Kato partnership ended and Atlas started improving their locomotives but,still lagging behind and seem to take off like a big bird in the late 90s.As you know today they are sitting the detail bar a little higher with each new locomotive.
As for Atlas setting the detail bar higher, its a shame really because they don't hardly ever offer any diesels I need. The last Atlas diesel I bought was the GP40 (latest large herald Rio Grande) and before that, GP40's also. I have a few legacy RSD4/5's for Utah RR and an old yellow box RS3. Thats it. All the rest are KATO's or Athearn. I'd like to take advantage of Atlas's nice loco's but none fit D&RGW needs. After the late 60's, Rio Grande was pure EMD and Atlas is doing mostly others.
I actually haven't gotten many of the Athearn RTR stuff save the coal cars like the Orter 5-bay's (six 5-packs) and Thall coal gons (fifteen 5-packs and more coming). I got a couple of the CF4740 PS hoppers and a PS box car (old BB kits in RTR form), and one 65' mill gon. I've looked at some of the other newer covered hoppers at shows and they look really nice. I see on the website they have largely sold out unless its a new run so the stuff is really popular.
Well many of the RTR cars sell out quickly depending on road name.
The 16K Slurry Tank car,the 30K Ethanol Tank car are very nice looking tankers that looks just as good as the Atlas and Walthers tank cars.
As you may have notice the PS2 2893,ACF 2970 and PS2 2003 has Photo-etched roof walks.Not bad for a car that sells less then $15.00 street price.
Now many of the newer 50 foot boxcars has separately applied grabirons, brake stand, brake wheel and underbody details for around $12.00 street price.
I agree Atlas has a small section of locomotives to include some oddities like the FM H15-44/H16-44 and of course the SD26.
Athearn,as I like to say(LOL),has more of a grab bag from steam locomotives to SD70s!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761 wrote: Well, wasn't Uncle Irv still alive when LL began their Proto 2000 line? It wasn't until he blessedly passed on that new blood took over Athearn and things began to roll in the direction it did.
Well, wasn't Uncle Irv still alive when LL began their Proto 2000 line? It wasn't until he blessedly passed on that new blood took over Athearn and things began to roll in the direction it did.
I think that had a lot to do with The Athearn family not knowing the orient well enough to start managing and importing highly detailed, smooth running engines that are labor intensive to assemble and require high tech tooling. Lionel suffered the same fate until ex Bachman exec, Dick Maddox, took a short term job at Lionel and moved production overseas.
Heh heh, my bad. No worries.
We are REALLY spoiled in the last five years, you are right about that. Send us back to the 80's and we'd be screaming like little valley girls poked with a stick! Helps to know the back ground. Since I've been in the hobby for 30+ years, I've been like the frog in the pot who doesn't feel the water getting to boiling point. I've been stuck with all the Athearn blue box and other lower quality stuff. Some things like the Front Range/McKean center beams will make you pull your hair out!
I too have really gotten spoiled with the RTR stuff and really, I'm glad it has come out, even if at high cost. Because like many modelers John Armstrong used to joke about, we had many more kits than we would ever build. I too have a large backlog, and since my wife kicked me out the house 7 years ago, I'd lost all motivation to build kits with itsy bitsy parts, like the P2K kits and the Intermountain kits. I even have one of those fancy tweezer style sprue nippers which do make the job way easier. I just don't like glue much and it always shows, no matter how hard I try.
But, if HQ RTR is all you have ever known, I can understand the reticence of considering items which are at a much lower level of detail. Since I've been without a layout for a while, one of my "hobbies" has been to take prototype pictures and try to find models made by any manufacturer (except Tyco, Life Like and Model Power) and match up model to prototype. More often that not, no model matches the prototype but in the last 10-15 years, there have been more and more, and its really cool. Being a western rail fan, especially SP and that region, I have loved the Genesis PC&F box car series! That was awesome! Expensive as they are I've got about 30 of them.
Well, and I have to say, getting back on topic, that alot of the newer Athearn RTR stuff is pretty good. Have you seen some of the newer tooled covered hoppers? 65' mill gon? And some of the upgraded Model Die Casting stuff like the 5-bay Ornter and the Thrall hi side gon, are amazing for the $12-13/ea street price. They have seperate grab irons and some of the old issues like misaligned ribs were fixed etc. Very nice stuff!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
TA462 wrote: You even said yourself the roof walk is pretty gross looking on the CF4750 Thrall covered hopper. So you have a fairly accurate car with a gross looking roof walk, why would I buy it if I would rather have something with more detail?
Anyway, I understand we have standards - I wouldn't run a Tyco car either, but I suspect 95% of model RRers featured in any of our magazines wouldn't either. I only recall a few, like Model Power made a cylindrical hopper in the days when they weren't to be had by anyone else. There were articles on upgrading that "toy" car to model layout standards. But for the most part, it was extremely rare to see a toy train set freight car accepted and ran by the average model railroader.
Don't you think you would be farther ahead just buying a Genesis, Proto or Intermountain car? The price would be close to the same, cheaper if you factor in your time.
It seems we are just going on and repeating ourselves over and over again. You like the cars with no detail, great, good for you.
Jumbo size ladders and gross looking roof walks hardly make up for having a fairly accurate looking car or paint job.
There isn't any reason why we can't debate the merrits of our opinions and try to frame a persuasive argurment without it all going south. I don't feel like I'm insulting anyone and I feel my comments are completely consistant with average modeling practices I've read about for years. If you don't like something don't buy it. But I did feel I had to challenge some of the notions being made about some decent if lower detailed cars, namely they are not in the same class as traditional trainset toy quality junk. That is simply not a fair characterization. Many, like me, like Larry etc. feel Atlas Trainman cars have a place on a distinguished model layout. Even our esteemed Jim Eager (a Canadian BTW, and author of more articles that I can remember and books) has recommended the Atlas Trainman 3-bay coal car as a great stand-in for a prototype which it is a close match to. I'm not discussing this in public to change your mind if it isn't going to be changed. This isn't about your eternal soul. Others may be reading this wondering about Atlas Trainman and I don't want them to think they are toy train set junk - they aren't.
Cheers
riogrande5761 wrote: Well, wasn't Uncle Irv still alive when LL began their Proto 2000 line? It wasn't until he blessedly passed on that new blood took over Athearn and things began to roll in the direction it did. I agree, the ugly BL2 wasn't exactly a great 1st choice. The FA was ok for some. The GP18 was the beginning of the good stuff. Quite frankly, LL had a policy in the 1990's of listening to us and implimenting running improvements. Then in the last 90's, around the time of the GP60, things started going funky and LL no longer seemed to responde to modeler concerns. The SD60 wide cab had a funky gap, the truck side frames were weirdly dimensioned, the color of some paint was off or inconsistant (Rio Grande was prime example of some were a great shade of orange and others a deep redish orange). Wierd gearing etc etc. I think Walthers taking over LL was probably a good move and will hopefullly turn it around. The F7's look great! Yeah, I remember the GP38-2 issue - Jim Six pointed that out on Atlas forums. Yeah, gear ratio of the month. Even under Walthers, the F7AB sets are pretty pricey. I think even with the 30% off, the non sound ones will still be close to $200.
Well, wasn't Uncle Irv still alive when LL began their Proto 2000 line? It wasn't until he blessedly passed on that new blood took over Athearn and things began to roll in the direction it did. I agree, the ugly BL2 wasn't exactly a great 1st choice. The FA was ok for some. The GP18 was the beginning of the good stuff. Quite frankly, LL had a policy in the 1990's of listening to us and implimenting running improvements. Then in the last 90's, around the time of the GP60, things started going funky and LL no longer seemed to responde to modeler concerns. The SD60 wide cab had a funky gap, the truck side frames were weirdly dimensioned, the color of some paint was off or inconsistant (Rio Grande was prime example of some were a great shade of orange and others a deep redish orange). Wierd gearing etc etc. I think Walthers taking over LL was probably a good move and will hopefullly turn it around. The F7's look great! Yeah, I remember the GP38-2 issue - Jim Six pointed that out on Atlas forums. Yeah, gear ratio of the month. Even under Walthers, the F7AB sets are pretty pricey. I think even with the 30% off, the non sound ones will still be close to $200.
Correct Uncle Irv was still alive but,paid no attention to the P2K BL2 like Atlas..Mrs.Athearn ran the show for awhile before selling out-a very good thing.Still Athearn was relying on the BB kits and finally introduce the first Genesis and few other units in the BB line..Along this time frame the Atlas/Kato partnership ended and Atlas started improving their locomotives but,still lagging behind and seem to take off like a big bird in the late 90s.As you know today they are sitting the detail bar a little higher with each new locomotive.
Athearn has made a turn around over the past few years but,and IMHO,they seem to spread their wings after the Horizon buy out.
IF they would only improve their drive with a Rocco motor for DCC compatibility...
I really like their RTR cars and haven't bought but 3 undec BB cars kits in the past 4 years.
My old worn GP38-2 draws 1/2 amp for a 2 unit consist and the wheels has turn silver..No kidding! I suspect the wheels worn down to the bare metal.I have no idea how many real miles or hours of operation my Athearn locomotives have.
As far as my newer RTR I been lucky with no defects all of mine are smooth runners.I only seen one GP35 that had issues..The flywheel was loose.
riogrande5761 wrote: [quote user="Artur with Athearn, but I haven't bought a lot of Athearn in the last few years. I got sick of them in the 60's and 70's, so tend to steer a path around them. BobObviously you have n't needed SD40T-2s or SD45T-2s! My guess is if you did, you'd be buying them in droves like I have.I'll make this point and drive it home, it all depends one what loco's and rolling stock you need. You can turn your nose up or not depending on that, basically.
[quote user="Artur
with Athearn, but I haven't bought a lot of Athearn in the last few years. I got sick of them in the 60's and 70's, so tend to steer a path around them. Bob
Bob
Obviously you have n't needed SD40T-2s or SD45T-2s! My guess is if you did, you'd be buying them in droves like I have.
I'll make this point and drive it home, it all depends one what loco's and rolling stock you need. You can turn your nose up or not depending on that, basically.
Well, actually since I model the Santa Fe and have for many years, I didn't buy either of the two you mentioned, and since I model the wheat fields and cities of Oklahoma, wouldn't be many running down there in 1989.
I bought a few of the new SD40-2, smoked decoders in two of them, then received the Kato Santa Fe SD40-2 I had on order and ordered 3 more. A little renumbering and I will be in hog heaven.
I will agree to with the smell and the noise, the classic over wide cabs, motor noise cant be beat. There is nothing like getting out my old Athearns and putting them to work. I have a pair of sw7's that have I swear a million miles on them. Metal side frames, oilite bearings on the trucks, and the old black motors. These 2 loco's are so warn out they are just as quiet as my newer Proto's, and Atlas engines. Or should I say they are just broke in?
Never the less this was a good talk for everyone, we got all kinds of veiws and opinions, and they were all good ones. Cheers!
3railguy wrote:I can't help but enjoy the noise and hot grease smell Athearn blue box engines make.
Well, it may all soon be a memory for me. I just sold another Athearn BB diesel, an SD40T-2, now that I have 8 of the new RTR SD40T-2's. All I have left now in the BB diesel line are two GP40-2's and one has the chassis in many pieces. Those are the last of the mohecans. Well, I do have one more dummy Athearn bb SD40T-2 I am thinking about making into the D&RGW version with the funky low nose light box which has the Mars gyra light on it.
Life Like did something that Atlas,Athearn and other manufacturers said couldn't be done.A highly detailed plastic locomotive..Well LL showed them it could be done by introducing a highly detailed BL2 that didn't exactly thrill that many modelers because it odd locomotive owned by few roads.The first FA1 with working fans was a improvement but,I believe the GP18 stole the show and set the market trend we enjoy today.Even at that Atlas wasn't in any hurry to play catch up with LL or anybody else including the Bachmann Spectrum GP30.
What hurt LL was the crack gear issue..Like it or not that played a major role because many couldn't see a high dollar engine with gear issues from the box easy fix or not and then they lost face with the first GP38-2 which was wrong from the word go.They had to revamp the dies and fix the many errors before the locomotive was finally produce.Then even today P2K is loosing ground because of various detail errors and who can forget the "Gear ratio of the month" LL used? Then LL jack the price up just before selling their model lines to Walthers.
Walthers is suppose to standardize the P2K line with the more common 14:1 ratio.
Nice summary!
ICRR1964 wrote: As for the question on what do we think of the new Athearn's? Good loco, fair price! And I will agree with others here to the split gear problem has been dragged through the hot coals for to long, it was an easy fix as far as I was concerened. As for my favorite loco manufacture? I like them all, but the battle to remain on top? It will never end.
I agree, good loco and fair price Athearn is. I'm still very happy with the SD40T-2's. I have to pinch myself that I got a plastic loco with those long missing prototype details! I do have to dress it up a little as the pilot looks bare without the coupler lift bars and MU hoses but that should be easy to add.
Now that Athearn has upped the bar on nice details just about equaling or surpassing Proto 2000, they need to focus on smooth quiet drives. I'd pay an extra five or ten dollars to get a smooth quiet drive. I realize Athearn probably has been trying to stay below the magic number of $100 MSRP and I appreciate that. Time will tell.
I've got like 11 P2K GP30's and 6 more GPs and SD's so I know I'll have to tackel the infamous cracked gear problem when I get them running on a new layout eventually. BUt from what I understand, its a quick easy fix.
On thing I have to say about the manufacturers - they do seem to favor certain loco lines. KATO has been into the wide cab modern diesels in HO lately, Atlas has always been an eastern focus and only a bone to us western fans. But Athearn is dishing it up in a big way to western fans like SP and D&RGW etc etc! Woot!
At one time Athearn led the way to HO modeling and trains with the blue box engines and cars, I would hate to think of how many different roads in engines and cars they have made. Athearn really set the pace back in the mid to lat 1960's when they faded out the hifi drive and went to shaft drive. The when the flywheel drives came, everyone was wanting them real bad. TYCO, Bachmann, AHM, and Round House struggled for years under the Athearn Rule. Athearn stayed on top until Atlas appeared in the mid 1970's with a new engine, I was a teen at that time. I had e fleet of gp9's, 35's, 40's, SD, and SW units in Athearn. My first Atlas engine was a ICG GP 38, wow! That set a new trend in the market, people could not order them fast enough. Sure there was allot of cheaper models with tiny motors, but at that time Atlas and Athearn were the rulers in the plastic world. Bachmann came out with the Spectrum line in the 80's and this was a good fair priced loco, and still is, they run decent and details are good.
When proto 200 entered the market it opened a whole new world to the MR. New details that were never seen before but on custom built units, super quiet drives. This opened a can of worms for all the manufactures in the MR industry. Kato, BLI, Rapido, you name it!!! What a wonderful world of tech improvements that have come along with the advent of lasers, cnc machine work, and super detailed cars and loco's.
We are going to see a steady war on improvements in the MR world. Who is going to remain on top, who knows? Everyday is a new day for new ideas and better models.
As for the question on what do we think of the new Athearn's? Good loco, fair price! And I will agree with others here to the split gear problem has been dragged through the hot coals for to long, it was an easy fix as far as I was concerened. As for my favorite loco manufacture? I like them all, but the battle to remain on top? It will never end.
aloco,
TA said
You said they are worthy of upgrading? Didn't I already say that?
but he also compared Atlas Trainman (GP38) to train set stuff. To me there is a distinct difference to it being "trainset" quality and worthy of upgrading. Lets flesh this out. In the past, the typical train set engine was considered "junk" by most seasoned model railroaders. No, not even worthy of upgrading in 98% of the cases. It was because the shell was way too crude and the mechanism was hopelessly cheap and no basis for a good model layout for running. They are made for children to set up on the living room floor and run in circles until they are board and put it away.
I grant you that Walthers and Athearn have since the past 5 or so years offered some better quality train sets which we don't usually think of in the stereotypical sense. Those use essentiall the Athearn blue box or Walthers kit items which are offered in an RTR form. They are models which started out as decent quality kits that in many cases are reasonbly accurate copies of prototype cars, with body mounted couplers and better paint. I wanted to debunk the notion that Atlas Trainman rolling stock could be put in the same category as or traditional train set schlock.
Thank you Larry! Atlas Trainman is not Trainset quality stuff by traditional standards. One has to be on a pretty high pedistal to suggest it but I'm here to say, no. Train set schlock isn't even a good starting point to upgrade.
The Atlas Trainman GP38 really is probably better than the good old bullet proof Athearn blue box loco's (never put in the train set category by 99% of modelers I should say!). And, the upgrading necessary to make the GP38 a nice layout model isn't great. Add some grab irons, a new horn a couple other items, weather it, and I imagine many long time modelers visiting a layout would be fooled.
-----
Anyway, yes, Athearns long time achilles heal is still the running quality. Its not consistant. I have some SD50's that run pretty quiet and smooth, yet others are reporting noisy engines from the RTR line within recent months. I to am looking forward to the SD45, and have all three on order. The telling reason for me is that they have the right shade orange (as opposed to P2k) and come with the correct low nose signal light. Its only the 2nd plastic model ever produced to include this important D&RGW detail! The SD40T-2 of October was the first! I bought 7 of those!
TA462 wrote:I too was into trains back in the 70's and I'm a very descriminating buyer. I don't buy garbage and I look for detail, the more the better. Like you I own the higher end locos, put a Proto up against a Trainmam line loco and the difference is huge. I can't see how you don't see it. You said they are worthy of upgrading? Didn't I already say that? They scream for more detail and make a great starting point I believe is what I said.
This quote says it all. If you like all the nit-picky little details, then the Trainman locos are not for you.
I have four Atheran RTR GP35s. The detail is fine, but I bought them because the cab looks more prototypically correct than the blue box version and the hood is scale width. I could care less about little things such as grab irons, lift rings, and all that other stuff that is hard to see from three feet away.
Another thing that Atlas Trainman series has is a much better cab mold than Athearn Blue Box stuff. The Atlas windows are more flush and rounded than the Blue Box Square windows. Im a stickler for stuff like that, and those SOO GP38-2s that Atlas did are pretty good looking, and could use a bit more detail in the grab irons and horn department, but overall they look nice. My RTR Athearn SOO SD60s are OK runners now, but not anywhere NEAR the quality of my Atlas/KATO/Proto Stuff. Im sure with some oil and run time they will turn out to be quieter and less jerky, but right now its a bit annoying. But one cant deny the great detail to those SD60s, the etched walkways are a great addition, as with the flush windows.
Only thing Athearn could do better with is numberboards, they still look like fakey. Atlas and P2K have the best looking numberboards in my opinion, and have them on non gloss surfaces, plus correct fonts. Im really looking forward to these Athearn SD45s though, I just hope they all run together nicely, because Athearn units seem to be up and down once in a while. My SOO Line SD60s dont run perfectly together, but like I said, Im sure I can get them to be decent after some work. That is an area that P2K,Atlas, and KATO have been proven in, multiple unit lashups, they all run like a swiss watch.
Alec(Who is with Dave on P2k, great locomotives)
The trainman cars are far from junk..I place them with the Athearn,Accurail and Walthers cars..A dang good buy for the price especially at street price.
Crude train set cars? Not likely.
Look to Tyco,Bachmann,IHC and Model Power for true train set cars.
As far as N Scale cars there are the Red Caboose cars and of course the Micro Train(MT) cars that is fairly decent.
Even Athearn's N Scale cars isn't that bad.
Cool!
There are alot of N-scalers on another forum. I think it ironic that I've been discussing Atlas Trainman cars with a couple different people, here and at Atlas forums, and how they are talking them down like they are crude train set freight cars. I bet if you shrunk that Atlas TM Thrall CF4750 hopper down to N-scale, it would look like a Genesis model compared to most N scale cars except for the roof walk. There is a discussion on alot of people chosing N or Z if they could switch but to my eye, most N and Z scale trains look crude in comparison to HO. I realize it is mainly because of the difficulty in molding and producing accurately scaled models at those tiny dimensions! I suppose that people like me and cljohns and our Canadian friend here could never model in N scale due to these issues.
Anyway, getting back on topic, I can honestly say that Athearn's RTR line includes some very nicely rendered models. The upgraded MDC Ornter and Thrall coal cars are really nice and yet economical to outfit a coal train with relative to the cost of Genesis and Intermountain freight cars. I got one of the 65' gondolas and it is very nice. There are so many I haven't purchased yet but seen at train shows. The new SD's really raise the bar on prototypical details and I'm just extatic about the tunnel motors coming with correct plows and nose signal lights, leslie roof antenae, correct fuel tank, see through air grills! Saweet!
riogrande5761 wrote: BRAKIE wrote:For the uninformed the Trainman line uses the same Atlas drive as the higher price Classic, Silver and Gold series.They just lack the basic details that the average modeler can add.Thanks Larry!I was looking at pictures on the website and quite fankly, they look pretty darn good! They might even be better than the good ol standard blue box Athearn shell which was lacking detail too, but would dress up quite nicely if you added the details.
BRAKIE wrote:For the uninformed the Trainman line uses the same Atlas drive as the higher price Classic, Silver and Gold series.They just lack the basic details that the average modeler can add.
Thanks Larry!
I was looking at pictures on the website and quite fankly, they look pretty darn good! They might even be better than the good ol standard blue box Athearn shell which was lacking detail too, but would dress up quite nicely if you added the details.
Should dress up quite nicely..You can use the Atlas GP38s mu hoses and grabs..Far cheaper then the DW or DA grabs and hoses-see Atlas's GP38 part list for prices.
The shell is straight forward similar to the Athearn GP38-2.The newer Athearn RTR GP38-2s comes with grabs.
The best twist is the air filter box is different.I believe the Atlas is a late GP38-2 which of course is good if your road had both types of air filters.
TA462 wrote: riogrande5761 wrote: Anyway, the original topic was Athearn... LOLThat it was, lol. Like we both said, the Atlas Trainman line is a good starting point to make yourself a nice looking car, then again so is Athearn Blue Box kits. The original topic was based on Ready To Run and as much as we can agree to disagree you can't deny that the Trainman line compared to other RTR stuff is lacking in detail. Sure they are cheap to buy and they look OK from a distance but up close you can clearly see the difference in a Proto or Genesis car for example compared to the Trainman car.
riogrande5761 wrote: Anyway, the original topic was Athearn... LOL
Anyway, the original topic was Athearn... LOL
No doubt the detail isn't there. No one can deny that. Perhaps your railroad is of an era and location which didn't typically see such box cars as the American Car and Foundary Railbox box car in trains, or some of those Evans 52' gondolas? Variety is lost if you deny yourself these models. They are basically accurate and just need grab irons if you really have to have that level of detail on every car. Some have pointed out that weathering your fleet blends things and when you look at a freight train as a whole, you aren't always going to be bothered by the molded on grab irons. Personally, I'm more bothered by running "bogus" freight cars that never existed - and even Atlas and Intermountain offers them - just few compared to Accurail and Walthers. High level of detail, but fantasy model.
They look like trainset quality cars compared to the others in my opinion.
I guess train set cars have improved a great deal in quality over the years. I had some old Tyco stuff laying around for a while, and it was in a completely different class than Atlas Trainman, or Athearn blue box or Accurail or MDC - which to me are roughly of the same detail give or take. I realize Walthers and Athearn offers better quality train sets, but go into KB Toys and tell me those train sets are similar to the stuff Atlas Trainman makes. I don't think so.
Everybody has standards in this hobby, some peoples standards for detail are different then others and thats ok. Some people need the durability of Trainman cars because of their "fat fingers" but just because they make a few "fairly" accurate cars but with little or no detail doesn't make them a good quality product. Quality in my opinion is accuracy and detail at an affordable price. In my opinion the Trainman line doesn't meet my standards so I guess we can still agree to disagree.
I agree, everyone has a different level of standards. You can't deny that your roster will be thinner and in a sense, less realistic, by denying yourself prototypically accurate/close models because of some missing detail that you can add with a minimum of effort. Atlas's new Trainman CF4750 Thrall covered hopper is a prime example. Your fleet will be missing this type of covered hopper (unless you fill in with brass - I'm not that rich) if you deny yourself this:
The roof walk is pretty gross looking but the rest is very decent and the end cage looks pretty good for a "trainset quality" model" *cough cough*. I'd imagine Plano will be helping us out and once the Plano etched mental roof walk is painted and mounted, this will be a worthy addition. Yes, its our own railroad and we have to please ourself, but I like having that accurate MDC 52' Railgon gondola which is very common on real railroads and damn if I'm going to not have some in my freight trains. Same with the Athearn/MDC FMC covered hopper. Its an accurate and correct car. Too close to train set quality? for a few maybe, but I believe a model railroad is more realistic including a large number of "correct" models despite a lower level of detail.
Just think, if you limited yourself to Genesis, Intermountain and Proto 2000 freight cars, you'd be missing potentiall 1/2 to 2/3rds of available "correct/close models on the market. Walthers makes a some very correct freight cars that came in kit form which are quite frankly in the ball park of Atlas Trainman and yet are very good copies of the prototype, even if lacking some of that fine detail. Here is an example of fairly accurate plastic models I would deny myself that the D&RGW rostered if I used Intermountain/Genesis as my standard:
-LBF/E&C Gunderson 50' hi-cube-Athearn 86' Greenville auto parts box car-Walthers 50' FGE RBL boxcar-MDC 52' Thrall Railgon gondola-Walthers 52' Thrall gondola (very close but not exact match to one class of D&RGW cars)-Walthers 65' Thrall gondola-Atlas Trainman 40' AAR welded 70-ton tripple coal hopper (again, not exact but close)-Walthers Bethlehem 100-ton 4-bay coal car (admittedly this car detail is close to Atlas Trainman - but a HUGE signature fleet car for the D&RGW)-Athearn PS CF4740 covered hopper (recently offered in super detail form by Tangent but not painted as of yet for D&RGW)-MDC FMC CF4700 covered hopper-Walthers 100-ton Airslide covered hopper-Athearn 57' mechanical reefers PFE/UPFE/SPFE-Accurail CF4600 covered hopper (correct for other railroads but not D&RGW - kit bash 4-bays and replace the roof walk with a plano part and its a great replacement for the Athearn CF5200 4-bay grain/plastics hopper)Those just a sampling from memory of some cars my roster would be missing, glaringly missing if I kept my standard as high as you. But the big trade off is ALOT of missing freight cars - and therefore less realism in that regard.
I'll just close this epside by pointing out that I've read article after article after article in MR, RMC, RMJ, and MRG magazine written by modelers who have studied the prototype and discovered through research which available plastic freight cars match prototype cars of interest to them so they can include them on their model RR. A great many of these cars were of the Athearn blue box, Walthers kit, Accurail kit, and MDC kit form, which had a low level of detail similar to Atlas Trainman. First of all, they idenified which prototypes these cars were good copies of, and second of all, they often would offer ways of improving them. Not all of us have the time to bring every model up to the Intermountain/Genesis level of detail - only in an ideal world where we are retired and can spend most of our waking hours. But, with some weathering the less well endowed models (which are otherwise prototypically accurate or close) still fill out freight trains to make them look like those we observed or are featured in our library of train books.
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I thought we were just talking about Trainman loco's? OK, sure the Trainman cars are a step up from my "daddy's" cars but still they are not even close to a Intermountain, Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000 and the regular Atlas line in detail. They perform well and are a great buy to build a fleet quickly but they still scream for more detail, sorry but its true. Put a Trainline car beside a Genesis, Proto, Intermountain and they will lose EVERY TIME.
Well, the origianl Topic was "Thoughts on the New Athearn" and then some folks were making comparisons to them, including Atlas Trainman. Atlas Trainman includes loco's and freight cars. I don't own the GP38 since Rio Grande never had any, but by all reports the drive is quite good, and obviously the shell is pretty basic. Probably a tad better than Athearn blue box, but with a better drive. They are "sans many details" just like Athearn blue box. A good starting point of one has less money and more time and can add those details.
Now, let me offer a very important comment about Atlas Trainman freight cars. I'll start by asking you a question. Do you want a well rounded fleet of freight cars for your era? Does representing a real railroad in model form become more realistic if you can offer a wider variety of freight cars? (Real railroads have a HUGE variety). Well, I want that. Guess what? That means we can draw upon the offerings of many different brands and lines of plastic freight cars to achieve that goal. Atlas Trainman happens to offer the only accurate ACF Railbox 50' box car right? Athearns has the "wrong roof" - I'm assuming you care about prototypical details including actual body features and not just separate grab irons and see through roof walks etc.
Other Athearn Trainman freight cars are also very good copies of prototypes that are not available from other manufacturers. Personally, I'd like to add a few of those cars to my roster so I can move toward a model RR that appears to approach the level of variety that the real thing does, AND use models that aren't "bogus". So what do I do, I do some research with the Morning Sun Book series and try to identify models from Athearn, Accurail, MDC, LBF, E&C, Genesis, Intermountain, Walthers, Proto 2000, Atlas etc etc. Its up to the modeler to decide if he is willing to tolerate having a few models rolling around which don't have separate grab irons, break release bars, ladders etc etc, or etched metal roof walks. Frankly if you have a fleet of hundreds of cars, its a challenge to bring every one up to that level of detail - even if it is a worthy goal.
I too was into trains back in the 70's and I'm a very descriminating buyer. I don't buy garbage and I look for detail, the more the better. Like you I own the higher end loco's, put a Proto up against a Trainmam line loco and the difference is huge. I can't see how you don't see it. You said they are worthy of upgrading? Didn't I already say that? They scream for more detail and make a great starting point I believe is what I said.
Again, the Trainman loco doesn't fit my RR. I'll stand on my above discussion and just say I too have a large fleet now of Genesis and Intermountain freight cars. But, I'm not going to deny myself a few CF4600 covered hoppers since Accurail is the only company making them in plastic and replacing that molded on roof walk is neigh impossible. Or I'm not going to deny myself a correct ACF Railbox box car because it doesn't have separately applied grab irons. You can shave them off and replace them at some point since it is screaming for more detail. I don't buy garbage either. But sometimes you have some models which are the ONLY example of a prototype car so you have to take a "sows ear" and make as silk purse from it - like the Front Range/McKean 62 foot center beam (its the only act in town for that car). I think the Atlas Trainman are alot better than many lower cost cars, and they do provide a very good basis for detailing since the basic model is pretty accurate and pretty well molded.
Everybody knows about the Proto GP's cracked gear problem and how it is now a non issue.
Yes, its a horse beaten to death and easy to fix.
Just because Joe Fugate has bemoaned the fact that off all the major brands, they spend the most time consistantly on the work bench doesn't mean anything. With no disrespect to Joe that is only Joe's experience,
No? I respect Joe because he and bunch of other guys who operate with him, represent many hours of hard operation and his is a good test case of how well certain brand loco's hold up. The cracked gear problem is just the most talked about issue. How about Proto 2000 using very different gear rations in a number of different engines? I'm just taking issue with you generalization that Proto 2000 are "proven winners" when in actuality, they have mulitiple issues arrising from multiple models. Gears cracking, odd gear ranges for speeds that don't allow MUing between just any locos, weird side frame dimensions on the SD50/SD60 locos. The PA units had motor problems on the first run or two. Don't get me wrong, I own them and need them just like I own and need Atlas Trainman. I'm just saying they are only glorified Athearns in many ways, and about 5-10 years ahead of Athearn in providing an RTR well detailed shell, with a drive copied from Athearn and improved upon. Proto 2000 even used the crappy coupler mounting system that I hate! But I still like them over all and own a bunch.
We can agree to disagree but I really can't see how ANY Atlas Trainman locomotive or car matches up with Atlas, Kato, Proto or the Genesis line in quality and detail. Maybe I need to drink some beers first, lol.
Maybe, but it sounds like your above statement has moderated from the original one and is almost putting words in my mouth. I'll just quote your original comment for truth (QFT)
"You can't put lower cost but good quality in the same sentence. I've seen the Trainman line and like I said, they are Train Set quality products. A far cry from their regular line in detail and quality. ... They may get more people into the hobby but in the long run they will probably end up in a box somewhere if the owner was going to get more involved in the hobby."
I never claimed Atlas Trainman freight cars (for example) "matched" Atlas, Genesis or Proto in quality AND detail. I think Atlas Trainman provide tremendous quality for the price, and even approach the quality (care in molding, paint, assembly, and fidelity to prototype) of those higher lines, but obviously the level of detail isn't there - plain to see with my 48 year old eyes which can still focus at 12-14 inches BTW without reading glasses. I'll just end the Trainman discussion by refering back to my above earlier comments. You need some of those if you want to represent those prototypes on your layout and they match your era. They fill in important gaps of models that aren't available in other brands. I have always argued over at Atlas forums that you can't exclude certain brands if you are going to have a well rounded roster. Some lines carry models representing prototypes which - hey - they are the only game in town until someone else offers a better example.
pastorbob wrote: I'm sure everyone can tell varying experiences with customer service, parts, etc. I happen to have always had good service from Atlas, less than good with Athearn, but I haven't bought a lot of Athearn in the last few years. I got sick of them in the 60's and 70's, so tend to steer a path around them. Bob
I'm sure everyone can tell varying experiences with customer service, parts, etc. I happen to have always had good service from Atlas, less than good with Athearn, but I haven't bought a lot of Athearn in the last few years. I got sick of them in the 60's and 70's, so tend to steer a path around them.
I know what you mean Bob..I gave up on anything P2K.
I am boycotting Kato simply because they could do much better in HO and chooses not to and I never did receive a answer to my e-mail I sent what three-four years ago now?
So,as I mention many times before if its not a Athearn or Atlas product I no longer interested.O f course this doesn't apply to freight cars other then P1K or P2K.
Artur wrote:I'm glad that Atlas came out with the trainman locomotives, the whole frame and drive train is identical to the high end stuff. On ebay I just bought an Atlas trainman GP38-2 for $40 and a Atlas GP40-2 shell for about $20, the shell fits right onto the frame and I have a new loco for $60, you're lucky if you find an Atlas GP40-2 for a $100. Hopefully they will come out with other trainman locos.
Huh? Atlas never made a GP40-2, but if you can drop an Athearn GP40-2 onto an Atlas Trainman frame? Cept it isn't really the right length is it? The GP40-2 was lengthened over teh G040 IIRC.