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secondhandmodeler wrote:So, how do you guys feel about the war in Iraq, seperation of church and state, and abortion rights? Just kidding, I was trying to think of less controversial subjects.
Good point!
It is a silly topic to discuss so I'm getting out of the right or no right now. Each to his own. But I think that the people who have shown of their works should be very proud over what they have done since I think they have succeded with what they tried to achieve.
My best regards,
Magnus
AMEN MR. KLUKE!
(Looks at clock) blah-off to work for me
AMEN MR KLUKE!
As artists, model railroaders, can get so close to their "work" that they, at times, fail to see the larger picture. I only tried to shine an unblinking spot light on the seemy underside of the graffiti subculture that some choose to recreate on their layouts. If that stands me in oppostion to the "conventional wisdom" of the hobby, well, that is a place I am very familiar with.
I'm trying to be that little voice in the back of your mind that asks, "What the heck are you doing"?
I do this without personal attacks or name calling. It is the way adults do things. If MrKluke doesn't like what he reads here, I would suggest he take his own advice and move on to another thread - and take your Amen Chorus with you!
George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Amen MrKLUKE!
Despite the attempted hijacking of this thread by the usual suspects, I admit that I've found it to be a most interesting one. Magnus, you are absolutely correct and I commend you for standing your ground in the same respectful and gracious manner that we've come to recognize from all your posts.
I share your opinion that graffiti in the real world is something to be condemned and I would never replicate it on my layout. However, if somebody else chooses to incorporate graffiti on their layout, that is their perogative and it must be respected without regard to my own personal feeling on the subject.
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
Ted Marshall wrote: ! Despite the attempted hijacking of this thread by the usual suspects, I admit that I've found it to be a most interesting one. Magnus, you are absolutely correct and I commend you for standing your ground in the same respectful and gracious manner that we've come to recognize from all your posts. I share your opinion that graffiti in the real world is something to be condemned and I would never replicate it on my layout. However, if somebody else chooses to incorporate graffiti on their layout, that is their perogative and it must be respected without regard to my own personal feeling on the subject.
!
Thank you for those kind words. I don't think you can apreciate how much that means to me. It almost* put a tear in my eye.
*Note the: Almost, a real man won't let kind words get to him
Lillen wrote: Ted Marshall wrote: ! Despite the attempted hijacking of this thread by the usual suspects, I admit that I've found it to be a most interesting one. Magnus, you are absolutely correct and I commend you for standing your ground in the same respectful and gracious manner that we've come to recognize from all your posts. I share your opinion that graffiti in the real world is something to be condemned and I would never replicate it on my layout. However, if somebody else chooses to incorporate graffiti on their layout, that is their perogative and it must be respected without regard to my own personal feeling on the subject. Thank you for those kind words. I don't think you can apreciate how much that means to me. It almost* put a tear in my eye. *Note the: Almost, a real man won't let kind words get to him Magnus
I enjoy a healthy debate with someone who knows what they are talking about AND can make their point without getting personal.
To all:
I really appreciate the fact that, for the most part, this particular thread (and those who have contributed to it) has stayed on the congenial side. However, keep in mind that - because of the polarizing views of the topic matter - a very close eye is being kept on it.
I'm willing to let this thread keep going...as long as it can be discussed in a civil manner and not turn personal. Please be aware that folks feel VERY strongly one way or the other. If things turn sour, it will either be locked or deleted. Thanks for your consideration.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage wrote: To all: I really to appreciate the fact that, for the most part, this particular thread (and those who have contributed to it) has stayed on the congenial side. However, keep in mind that - because of the polarizing views of the topic matter - a very close eye is being kept on it. I'm willing to let this thread keep going...as long as it can be discussed in a civil manner and not turn personal. Please be aware that folks feel VERY strongly one way or the other. If things turn sour, it will either be locked or deleted. Thanks for your consideration. Tom
I really to appreciate the fact that, for the most part, this particular thread (and those who have contributed to it) has stayed on the congenial side. However, keep in mind that - because of the polarizing views of the topic matter - a very close eye is being kept on it.
Don't worry, Tom. I think everything will be fine if I just go away. I'll do that now, I've better things to do with my time.
Judging from the exhausted tone of the last few posts, I would guess that most everyone would love to see this thread sink down the list into oblivion, but since I signed off a while back, I've been thinking things over, and I have a message for George:
George,
In case you're still with us, I'd like you to know that you haven't wasted your time contributing to this thread. Some of the points you made, particulary the one about the message graffiti-covered models sends to kids, have led me to reconsider whether I want to reproduce graffiti on my rolling stock. I haven't come to a decision yet, but you and some of the other contributors like AntonioFP45 (and his great 1982 Southern video) have got me thinking.
Having said that, I must say that I was personally very offended by the way you presented your arguments. You called into question the integrity of those of us who model graffiti (or are considering doing so), you suggested we are crypto-racists, you asserted that we are in favor of vandalism, and you told us not to expect you to "climb down in the dung heap" with us. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps we just haven't considered all the implications you may have or that we have come to a reasoned, thoughtful position that happens to differ from yours?
Although you may believe you engaged in the debate without resorting to personal attacks or name calling, I think you ought to read over your posts and consider how you would feel if the language you used had been directed at you. If you are not concerned about hurting the feelings of your fellow model railroaders you should consider this: it's a lot harder to win someone over to your point of view if you start by slapping their face. Mine is still stinging, and you nearly lost your chance to get me to consider your position.
Nevetheless, I appreciate you taking the time to contribute to the thread and for reminding us that actions speak louder than words. All of us who deplore graffiti in the real world or who worry about the direction our society is headed have a responsiblity to do more than rant about it on a moder railroad forum. I guarantee you, if every modeler in the country pledged never to tag another railroad model, the measurable effect on railroad vandalism would be zilch.
There are, however, lots of things we can do: we can make sure our own kids understand that tagging private property is wrong, we can volunteer at after-school programs for at-risk youth, we can become mentors, we can support organizations that promote tolerance and fight hate crimes, we can lobby for better art programs in the public schools so creative kids have a more constructive outlet. . .
George, you are very passionate about this issue. Perhaps you can share with us some of the actions you have heard about or you have taken yourself to try to turn this situation around. I know there are a lot of modelers out there, whether they agree with your position on model graffiti or not, who would be glad to help if they just knew what to do.
Despite the bruised feelings all around, I don't regret starting this thread. Next time, though, I think I'll ask for input on something a little less controversial like, say, homosote vs. cork roadbed. . .
Charlie
PS. Lillen: I'm not sure where I'll come down in regard to graffiti, but I loved your arguments. They really put the question of modeling graffiti into a broader context. By the way, I guarantee you, my Swedish grammar is worse than your English grammar any day! Tack så mycket!
Craig
DMW
Magnus/Lillen did make some very good points.
Modeling American railroad stations in the South during the Jim Crow era might include separate waiting rooms and coaches for passengers. This doesn't mean that a person modeling that era advocates such abhorrent and absurd practices. As well, many people have modeled fuel/oil spills at engine servicing facilities and other environmentally irresponsible things (empty 55-gallon drums in creeks, etc.). Does this mean that the modeler in question has no respect for the real world that we all share? Certainly not.
Modeling graffiti certainly falls into the same category. Modeling a freight car that has been defaced with graffiti doesn't necessarily mean that a person supports such activity. Moreover, as was mentioned many times in this thread, freight car graffiti is rarely racist in nature, nor does it typically have anything to do with gangs and their turf tags; the difference is obvious.
Most importantly, as Magnus pointed out, we all have to make choices on how to selectively compress the real world that we model, and there is a wide spectrum of choices to be made. A person could model the American South in the '30's and choose to exclude anything relating to the Jim Crow laws of the time. Or, an engine facility with oil spills could be modeled without including an illegal toxic waste dump elsewhere. And just as well, graffiti on freight cars can be modeled without including any hate-group graffiti on fences or gang tags on buildings.
Reducing our choices to all or nothing is illogical and fallacious, a false dilemma.
Thanks everyone for the kind words. I'm glad I could contribute without hurting or insulting anyone. I'm also glad(very) that my arguments where considered interesting and made people think. This is what a good forum should do.
I also started thinking a lot of things I hadn't thought of before so in that way I will be more conscious my self in the future. So in this way Georges input was good. But as Charlie said, I think that he would have gained more sympathizers with a less aggressive way of putting it.
Charlie Conway have many interesting ideas in his latest post. What struck me as important is what we can do to stop real life problems. I personally believe in that we as individuals can make a difference. If we engage young people and discuss issues like this with them I think we can help. Right now I'm working at a school for grades 10-12 as a part of my teacher degree. I see there everyday how people make a difference, bad teachers makes the students go the wrong way. But good teachers, or even great teachers have the opposite effect. Treating young people with respect makes them respect you back. But that doesn't mean that they don't need rules and they need to be told to be quiet now and then.
I really do think we can make that difference if we only take the time and the effort to try.
"Reducing our choices to all or nothing is illogical and fallacious, a false dilemma. " This is something I agree with.
So , Tack så mycket.