FORUM CLINIC: 12 years using DCC - SIGNIFICANT NEW INFO!

[robengland]

Someone mentioned Digitrax support earlier. I heard that Digitrax had issues with their spam filtering, and they recommend that if you emailo them that you make sure to include a Digitrax product name in the email subject to ensure it gets to their attention, eg "Problems with my Zephyr" not "problem"

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

Here's a basic question perhaps covered elsewhere:
Is there any problem in running both two digit and four digit address locos at the same time, in event two locos have same road numbers, e.g. two 4429's, assigning respective locos addresses 29 and 4429?

Isam:

No problem at all. You tell the decoder to use a 2 digit or a 4 digit address, and then set the address, be it two or 4 digits.

29 will answer to 29 and 4429 will answer to 4429.

I use mixtures of 2 and 4 digit addressing on my layout all the time, and it works like a charm. [:D]

I use consists a lot on my layout and consist addresses can only be 1-127, or for all practical purposes 1-99. I just use the last two digits on the cab of the lead loco, like 29 in the example you gave.

If I have a loco address conflict, I bury it in a consist using a 4 digit number, making sure the loco with the last two digits duplicated is not on either end of the consist. Since I never have to address a mid-consist loco directly, this solves the duplicate loco address issue just fine and allows me to keep using the last two digits on the cab of the lead loco without any address conflict issues.

[simon1966]

A heads up on the Decoder Pro. I downloaded the the pre-release version 1.7 to play around with today to see how it handles the QSI decoders found in the BLI locomotives. I was very pleased to find that all 3 of my locos are included in the new QSI definition files. The ability to easily adjust the individual sound volumes of the different sounds is great. So on first view it looks as if the final release version of 1.7 will be an excellent upgrade.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenkal


I monitor the Yahoo users groups and find many negatives about Digitrax customer support and just about all positives about NCE's. Of course, this "could be" because Digitrax appears to have a LOT more users and units out there, resulting in more complaints about service, and "could" explain why NCE, supporting fewer customers, appears to do better.

As a confirmed Digitrax user, I have had reason to e-mail them for support on a couple of occasions. Just the other day for example, I had a question about dispatching locomotives with the new UT4 throttle I picked up at the NTS. I emailed the question at about 6:00 PM on a Sunday evening and had the answer to my question from Digitrax at 7:00 am on Monday. I have absolutely no complaints about the support from Digitrax at all. I am a member of the Digitrax Yahoo group and find this to be a very valuable resource also.

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Someone mentioned Digitrax support earlier. I heard that Digitrax had issues with their spam filtering, and they recommend that if you emailo them that you make sure to include a Digitrax product name in the email subject to ensure it gets to their attention, eg "Problems with my Zephyr" not "problem"

This is a problem for EVERYONE and it sure would be nice if peopel would do these things in their emails. I know there was an effort ont he JMRI group to get peopel to prefix their subject with things like PROBLEM or BUG so as to make it easer for people to see what the message was about. But that didn;t last too long.
I'm really considerign tightening my personal anti-spam - it's ok for people I've already exchanged emails with, as anyone I send to automatically gets whitelisted so they can send me anything back. But for new conversations, forget it. I know of one person who uses a rotating filter using the current date - thus you would have to include the current date in the subject line to get through for the first time.
This problem will not go away until the spammers are TRULY punished for their THEFT (which is EXACTLY what it is) of users' bandwidth.
How bad is it? The other week I won the $5 from Tony's. But I never got the confirmation with my code, it got eaten by my spam filter! I emailed them this information but still haven't heard back.
Hint: just don;t put in one-word subject lines like HELP!

--Randy

[jfugate]

Sorry for the delay in posting more things to this clinic ... I'm being lazy, sort of.

Been working on the railroad instead of parking my fanny in front of the computer. Or enjoying the summer weather.

I have many more postings I want to make to this clinic still ... so hang in there, I intend to get back to this forum clinic soon.

In the meantime, here it is bumped back up to the top where you can find it!

[:D]

[electrolove]

Joe:

I'm looking forward to the other postings you have.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Sorry for the delay in posting more things to this clinic ... I'm being lazy, sort of.

Been working on the railroad instead of parking my fanny in front of the computer. Or enjoying the summer weather.

I have many more postings I want to make to this clinic still ... so hang in there, I intend to get back to this forum clinic soon.

In the meantime, here it is bumped back up to the top where you can find it!

[:D]

[jrbernier]

I have to agree that seperating the signaling from the actual 'command control' is a good idea. I use a "Logic Rail' signal system to drive the detection and the signals. The only 'non DCC' stuff I use on my 'LocoNet' is the interface from the Decoder Pro(Loco Buffer) to the LocoNet. 10 'gazillion' wires, 2 boosters, PM42's, a DCC clock(Logic Rail), and 5 throttles pounding the LocoNet - No problems. And no address 'zero'(stretching) to run non-DCC engines(I learned my lesson).
I suspect that the NCE based systems might be affected more as the are a 'poll' based bus, but unless you have a very large/busy club system, I really do not think you will see a bandwidth problem there.
As far as 'support', Digitrax has replied back within 24-48 hours - Not too bad. I have heard nothing but good support from NCE, Lenz, & EasyDCC as well. Folks with low-end systems like MRC/Atlas/Bachmann seem to run into support issues or emails that the system cannot do what they want.
I got into Digitrax as the owners sold me on their system in 1994(Portland NMRA Convention) and have provided great support through the years. If I had not had a personal relationship with Digitrax, I would have gone the EasyDCC route. The bottom line for DCC is good support, and Digitrax/Lenz/EasyDCC/NCE appear to be the 'rock solid' leaders in this arena.

Jim

[jrbernier]

I have a DCC 'test track' in my study(Digitrax Zephyr) that used Bachmann EZ Track(N/S rail and grey roadbed) for both the 'mainline' and the 'program track'. The 'mainline' is about 6' long with a 22" radius curve('L' shaped desk) - NO problems after 6 months. If this was the 'layout', I would be concerned. My layout has Atlas code 100 N/S flex, with brand new rail joiners. I did not drop feeders every rail length, and after about a year, I started to see trains start to 'slow down' in certain areas(pre-DCC days). Dropping feeders/soldering rail joiners resolved the issue.

Jim

[SpaceMouse]

When I switched to a Zephyr I noticed that the engines would stall or slow down at certain areas of the track. All my EZ track joints are soldered, but I only have drop downs every 3-4 feet, with the exception of the top level which has only one for the entire 3 foot diameter circle. Putting more dropdowns was my next step.

[rrinker]

If you have feeders to both rails ever 3-4 feet, that should be plenty. The only place I have them closer is around a concentration of turnouts, since where possible I put feeders on all 3 legs of a turnout (since they are insulated frog turnouts and do not need gaps).

--Randy

[selector]

That is odd, Chip. My track has a lengthy spur that spirals up to my mine. It is over 13 feet long, and has one feeder, no other solders...period. I have had zero problems or stalls, even on my light 0-6-0, a notoriously short loco. I'm running the SEB with one QSI and two 100LC's on it.

I sure would like it if someone shouted out on this forum that they had finally solved these glitches with EZ-Track that so many others seem to have. It must be very exasperating to be unable to solve it except with much more work, material, and expense. Sort of belies the name of the product, don't it?

[MudHen_462]

Joe... I just received my copy of your new Vol. 3. The chapter's on decoder, and sound installation are really great. I have really enjoyed this clinic, and now I am doubly impressed with your latest DVD.... Thanks,

Bob H.

[chateauricher]

Joe,

I could use some advice regarding the type of DCC system that would best suit my needs. You can see the plans for my N-scale layout here ...
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=43513&REPLY_ID=461700#461700

Things to consider ...

I am on a (tight) budget, so I would like a system that offers reliability, quality, and up-grade-ability at budget prices.

A sytem that is easy to use and install is preferred.

Since the layout is small, a stationary or a tethered control center is quite fine for me. If going the tethered route, I'd only need one plug-in location.

I plan to run a maximum of 3 trains; with up to 2 operators (me and one other) at a time.

I don't need to have DCC control the turnouts, sound or other accessories.

Any advice you can offer will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[jfugate]

Timothy:

For smaller operations and a budget mindset, the Digitrax Zephyr or the NCE PowerCab (new) are good choices.


For more info on the Zephyr, see:
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2004/031104.htm


For more info on the NCE PowerCab, see:
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2005/063005b.htm

The nice thing about both of these starter systems is they are not dead-end systems like the MRC, Bachmann, or Atlas offerings are. With the Zephyr or PowerCab, you can continue to expand as your hobby interests expand.

I personally prefer the NCE user interface over the Digitrax one, and the latest news says that the PowerCab includes a USB computer interface ...

see: http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2005/071905b.htm

You have to buy extra hardware with the Zephyr to get a computer interface.

Having a computer interface to a DCC system will allow you to download free software like DecoderPro and be able to do very sophisticated and complex decoder programming easily with just a few mouse clicks.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


I personally prefer the NCE user interface over the Digitrax one, and the latest news says that the PowerCab includes a USB computer interface ...

see: http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/2005/071905b.htm

You have to buy extra hardware with the Zephyr to get a computer interface.

Having a computer interface to a DCC system will allow you to download free software like DecoderPro and be able to do very sophisticated and complex decoder programming easily with just a few mouse clicks.

Joe, I think you are incorrect. The USB interface is an option for the Powercab. It is listed as an option on the Tony's web site with TBA for the price, so it is not actually available yet.

[jfugate]

Simon:

Yeh, the PowerCab announcements on Tony's web site are unclear as to how the USB computer interface fits in, so I guess we'll all have to wait and see. NCE's web site doesn't say squat about the product, so it's probably in the same category as the Tsunami decoder at the moment ... vapourware.

So if you are in the market for the starter DCC system today, Digitrax Zephyr is the only one of the two I listed that is a real product you can buy today, looks like.

[rockythegoat]

Just found this thread and I have to say THANK YOU for taking the time to do this! I'm about to get a DCC system and start my layout, so this is great as I can do the wiring ahead of time instead of crawling underneath.

Very Nice![tup][tup][tup][tup]

[jfugate]

Rokky:

You are welcome! I'm bumping this thread up ... and do intend to get back to it soon after my hiatus of just working on the trains! I promise to post more clinic topics on this thread ... but at least I have a good excuse for now. [swg]

[chateauricher]

Here is a questionsI always seem to be a bit confused about ... [%-)] [%-)] [%-)]

What guage wires should I use for the bus and the feeders ?

[rrinker]

Like everythingelse - it depends! It depends on how long they will be, because the longer the wire, the more voltage drop there will be. But, the BIGGER the wire (smaller number in wire gauge terms - #12 wire is BIGGER than #18), the less loss there will be. There is a point of diminishing returns, otherwise we'd all use big heavy 00 wire, but good luck pullign that through holes in your benchwork.
It also depends somewhat on your modelling scale. The more current draw, the greater the loss, so with O and G scales you usually need heavier wire than N and Z scales, although this can be offset somewhat by the fact that in the same space you can have a lot more running N scale locos than G scale locos.
All that and I still haven't told you what wire size to use. Well, for amaller runs in the smaller scales, say a 4x8 HO layout, you can get away with #16 or even #18 without too much trouble. For runs up to 25 feet or so, use #14. Anything longer, use #12. If you need to run wires more than 50 feet, consider distributing your boosters - remember that over 50 feet you actually have 100 feet of wire, and even #12 will start showing noticeable voltage drops.
Now, you can't really solder #12 to your track, well, you can, but it won't be pretty. But over short distances (most track feeders are 1 foot or less), using thinner wire won't hurt anything. For HO I use #20 wire for my feeders, for N I'd use #22 or #24. For O and G, #18. Have plenty of feeders - the point of the wire bus under the layout is because the rails are a smaller size conductor, plus rail joints are not reliable power connections. So if you run a nice power bus under the layout but only connect a set of feeders every 20 feet, you are defeating the purpose.

--Randy

[grayfox1119]

Randy, one thing that I see can be somewhat confusing to people. Lets say that you have three 4x8 tables in a row. Now you run a power bus underneith at midpoint, which of course would be 2 feet from either end of the boards. Now you have tracks on the top side that may be running 6" in from either side of the tables. You will be more than 12" away for the track drops to reach the power buss. Personally, I don't see this as being an issue, especially if you are running #14 wire for drops, and are placing drops every 3 feet. Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

I'd say don't run the bus arbitrarily. Run it sort of along the track. There's no point in bus where there's no track just to be symmetric. Also, in a large layout some kind of star configuration for the bus might make sense. There are lots of ways to do it, and fortunately, most of them will work!
It is very desirable to keep the feeders short, though. Feeders small enough to hide are going to add up resistance wise. Also, it seems to me that longer feeders are going to have a better chance of getting snagged and damaged.

[rrinker]

That's a rather contrived example, but say it was that - three 4x8 ovals. I would put the booster in the middle front of the middle table. Each table woudl have a bus loop following under the track - not just a single bus down the middle. At the edges where the tables meet - a simple jumper from one bus loop to the one on the next table. At the back edge of the tables, the bus lines do not have to connect to form a complete loop. At the risk or resurrecting THAT debate, I will say that i did NOT close the loop on my layout. I have three bus loops runnign around my 8x12 section - one for the outer main, one for the inner main, and one for the yard and switchign areas on the inside. It's really 6 because each one is split at the far end, but I have the left and right halves of each bus connected to the same terminals of a terminal strip. Maybe overkill, but my trains do not slow down, the lights do not flicker, etc.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I just talked to NCE and they say that the powercab is due to come out at the end of September or erly October.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wiking2

I just talked to NCE and they say that the powercab is due to come out at the end of September or erly October.

Thanks, wiking, for the update!

[jfugate]

All the discussion around bus wire and feeders involves a lot of issues, preferences, and so on. We could run an entire FORUM CLINIC just on that one area.

One issue around your bus wire and feeders is the fact that nickel silver rail is not as good a conductor over distance as is copper wire. If you look at the ohms per foot of nickel silver rail, you will quickly realize that placing feeders farther apart than every 20 feet or so will cause problems because of the resistance of NS rail, especially smaller code rail and high current levels ... which is just what you get with DCC and scale rail sizes.

So then you need to consider how big the bus wire needs to be to get no more than say, a 5% voltage drop from one end of the layout to the other. Here's a chart that I posted earlier in this clinic that's based on 12 volts and 3.5 amps:

Length of run for no more than 5% voltage drop
16 guage – 20 ft
14 guage – 35 ft
12 guage – 50 ft
10 guage – 80 ft

The common reasoning as to track feeders is to not rely on rail joiners to carry the power from rail section to rail section because of dissimilar metals, corrosion, gunk from scenery work, etc ruining the conductivity of the joint. You can solder rail joints, but if you do that too much, you hinder the tracks ability to "breathe" with the roadbed and benchwork as it expands and contracts because of seasonal changes in temperature and humidity.

So if you want ultra-reliable track power to your locos, you run a feeder to every rail section (typically every 3 feet) and avoid soldering rail joiners. This easily gets around the poor conductivity issues of nickel silver rail and rail joiners losing conductivity with time -- and prevents the rails from popping off the ties because of an expansion/contraction problem.

This said, I do solder a few rail joints:

1. Any track section shorter than one foot gets soldered to an adjoining section that has feeders attached to it.
2. I solder the rail joiners on a turnout's point end to the adjoining section that has feeders attached to it (consistent with the general rule of feeding turnouts from the point end).
3. I solder the rail joiners on two 3-foot flex track sections to make a 6-foot section when I lay track on curves, this helps the track flow smoothly with fewer kinks.

Some may feel feeding every track section with its own feeders is overkill, but I prefer to make the electrical part of the layout as bullet-proof as possible, so I can enjoy ultra-reliable track power.

Then all I have to worry about is keeping the track clean. Now layout maintenance is a whole different FORUM CLINIC ... [swg]

[Anonymous]

Joe,

I would actually love to hear what kind of maintenance is required for a layout your size.

I'm a small layout guy myself, but I'm of course a "closet fan" of layouts like yours. I scanned your Mushroom article from the late 90's into my computer and browse over it occasionally just to "dream". Darnit, I seem to not have your first installment, my scanned images start at the 2nd installment.

In any case, having never been involved with a club, etc., I have no idea how much maintenance is required for a larger layout. Would be very interesting information to share.

You've done this for years and years, and know what's required (sounds like you have a crew that helps out, etc.). Sometimes when I see people designing their first layout and it's huge, I often wonder if they know what sort of maintenance it will require.

That sort of information could be a good reality check for those who start planning based on the larger layouts they've seen in the magazines.

[jfugate]

I'm thinking that perhaps we could do a layout maintenance FORUM CLINIC one of these days ... and I agree, the one thing such a forum clinic will do, is cause a reality attack once you see what's involved in keeping a large layout going.

[ereimer]

to paraphrase my old boss....

i'd rather OVER DO the wiring than DO the wiring OVER