What have you compared it to?
Dunno, I have had an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system for 20 years now, and I cannot identify a single weakness.
Rich
Alton Junction
I mean in the past 13 years that I've been with my current club, I've never used a system that didn't support more than 2 loco recall.
I would not consider that a big feature. Or rather, why did it take so long?
Obviously if you have a system you like and are happy with. Then that's great.
But the OP asked about a comparison if they should chose to upgrade. And I think that should include more options.
For example. I think the TCS system would be far more compelling as an upgrade for the OP than the NCE.
nealknows Speaking only about my NCE system, they have upgraded my Pro Cabs to the latest version software, which is good when you want to recall more than 2 engines. I really like the ease of consisting and use. Have the Powerhouse Pro Radio system with 2 additional boosters. Works well no complaints.. Neal
Speaking only about my NCE system, they have upgraded my Pro Cabs to the latest version software, which is good when you want to recall more than 2 engines.
I really like the ease of consisting and use.
Have the Powerhouse Pro Radio system with 2 additional boosters. Works well no complaints..
Neal
YoHo1975 ... Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
... Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
Really?
In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system.
When I was a club member many of the members did not have a lot of extra money for the newest and best, don't know how much this has changed but needs to be considered.
I 100% agree with Riogrande5761.
Our club has had the CS-105 since beta. We also had an NCE PH Pro system. Just in case the CS-105 beta didn't work out. That proved unnecessary. We are not looking back.
We currently have the CS-105, an additional B-106 booster. 4 UWT-100s, A UWT-50e and 2 legacy NCE hammerheads and a WFD-30 for Withrottle support though we plan to replace that with the new MRC device in the coming months.
The CS-105 is THE BEST DCC system in 2024 in the club's experience. Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
A few reasons to consider it.
Also as noted the TCS UWT throttles are really really slick. Even before we switched to the CS-105 we were using the UWTs on our Legacy MRC system as well as the NCE. Everyone in the club prefers them.
Also, it's kinda funny that you mistakenly had MRC in the title, and based on all the digitrax and NCE recommendations in the thread, it might be that not everyone is aware, but MRC is launching a brand new system soonish. It is going to us LCC just as the TCS products do. And it's going to include some integration points for legacy prodigy users.
The first products out will be an LCC throttle and a new adapter board that will convert from LCC and Withrottle to the MRC bus. Either direction. SO we're looking at that to replace our WFD-30 which has more limitations than we'd like. And since it's all LCC it is 100% compatible with the CS-105.
Don't need the MRC support, but we do have some legacy MRC throttles so it will be interesting.
There are other systems out there that are more newer with more features than NCE and Digitrax. They are European. the ESU ECOS system in particular is very popular. I'm not personally a fan, but I'd really recommend looking at other options than Digitrax and NCE. There are many more options now with US support.
Oh boy. First of all, you are asking the wrong question. I could go on for pages about Digitrax vs. NCE, but that question is missing the forest for the trees. Digitrax and NCE, the two largest DCC companies in North America, currently exist purely due to market inertia, and not because of the merits of their product offerings.
I think the first action your club needs to take is to get the existing system 100% functional before switching to anything else. But if you want to switch to a better system, the question is not Digitrax vs. NCE, it is what DCC system to switch to. It is possible to turn track power off on Digitrax via PWR >>> N- but no one should be doing that during an op session, and if that is the problem, then you've got a member problem as to why people are turning the track power off when they are not authorized to do so.
First, in terms of switching from one system to another, there are people who have switched one way or the other for good reasons, including from a 100% functional Digitrax systems who have switched from one to another for well thought out, specific features, like more reliable radio throttles or double-ended consisting. Then there are people who have switched for bad reasons, like they didn't bother to RTFM, and think that running away from their problems with their current DCC system will magically solve all their problems. Before you even THINK of switching, get your existing system 100% functional, and have specific reasons and features that you want to switch for, not something that you're running from.
Secondly, Digitrax partially unfairly has a reputation as being hard to use, and NCE has an over-hyped reputation for being easy to use. Digitrax's original throttle was hard to use, due to the cost of chips at the time, and the nature of their LocoNet network, compared to NCE's polled serial bus. Digitrax matched NCE's ease of use in 2006 with the DT400 series throttles, but they've since backslid a bit with some bizarre UI/UX design choices in the DT602D and UT6D throttles. Meanwhile, NCE is selling a mediocre and overpriced system that's fundamentally been frozen in time for over 25 years.
Digitrax's LocoNet architecture is far superior to NCE's polled serial bus architecture. NCE has gotten a reputation for being reliable because when you barely change anything for over 25 years, you can have a pretty stable system. Digitrax was hands down the best system from 2006 until they made the disastrous move to Duplex radio. More recently, they have made their accessories more of an ecosystem play and have dug their heels in on LocoNet, Transponding, and Duplex over the open standards of LCC, RailCom, and Wi-Fi. Their product quality, manuals, and general execution on a lot of things seem to have gone from the best in the business to troublesome at best. Digitrax's scheme for powering accessories and LocoNet has never made sense, and ironically, LocoNet licensees in Europe have fixed a lot of the electrical architectural problems with LocoNet in their designs, separating LNet-T and LNet-B.
Third, it is 2024, and there is a good argument to be had that the DCC system doesn't really matter that much, since with JMRI WiThrottle, the TCS UWTs, and ProtoThrottle (if you're into that type of operation), all the DCC system really needs to do is function as a packet converter from serial to DCC. I'd argue that there is a lot more that you can get out of a DCC system, but with JMRI WiThrottle and a TCS UWT, you get an almost idential experience on a Digitrax system as an NCE system as with any other.
The full-fledged DCC systems that people should be looking at in 2024 are:
1. TCS CS-105
2. YaMoRC YD7001 (probably not for a club)
3. ESU Cab Control or ECoS
4. Roco Z21
5. MRC Nexxt (when it comes out)
For smaller home layouts, I'd also add:
1. TCS LT-50
2. SPROG
3. DCC-EX
4. Digitrax DCS52
When you look at modern DCC systems from Digikeijs, YaMoRC, ESU, Roco, TCS, and others, you see a pattern. All of them are three core components that legacy systems don't.
1. Wi-Fi/Ethernet connectivity
2. RailCom support
3. Multi-bus compatibility
Right now the CS-105 is THE premium system to beat, and it's great for clubs since it supports most legacy proprietary throttle systems, including Digitrax, NCE, CVP v4, Lenz, and soon MRC, including the various radio systems for each. Although it's not THAT different from using a legacy proprietary DCC system today where you have TCS UWTs on WiThrottle, anyone who cares about their throttle experience will use the Wi-Fi based throttle of their choice (or ProtoThrottle if it works for that layout and ops scheme), and people who don't will stay on legacy proprietary throttles, which is fine. What you will find is that as time goes on, no one really cares about the legacy proprietary throttles, but the compatibility will get you to people agreeing to adopt it, as it's basically just the command station and a throttle or two, not replacing the command station and ALL the throttles (although again, Wi-Fi throttles still work with any system via WiThrottle).
Out of the modern systems, you will notice that all of them are European except for the TCS CS-105. The CS-105, while pricey, is the only system that has bested NCE's consisting along with focusing on an operation-first North American approach to a modern DCC system.
NCE's main competitive advantages of relative ease of use, mediocre radio throttles (while the other options like Digitrax Duplex were terrible), and double-ended consisting have been chipped away over the years by Digitrax in 2006, TCS in 2020, and TCS again in 2022, respectively have left NCE without any competitive advantage combined with ultra-premium pricing. TCS is a premium priced product with premium features and performance.
The question that NCE is going to have to answer is what their value proposition is when the TCS system does everything NCE does, including NCE's last remaining competitive advantage of consisting, far better than NCE for all of $30 more, with the PH-5R at $700 and the CS-105/UWT-100 at $730. Digitrax doesn't need to match TCS feature wise, as their value proposition is that they are relatively cheap, especially at the entry level.
I've heard the logic of buying what people around you have, or what you have locally available for throttles, but over the years, people have gotten more throttles, and now that's largely irrelevant with Wi-Fi throttles and everyone having a throttle in their pocket all the time if needed.
I'll toss a cat among the pigeons. Some would argue that Digitrax and NCE are both old technology - 30+ year old technology. The OP might want to widen his horizons and think about TCS system - they offer a lower end starter system LT-50 and a higher end system based on the the CS-105 + a wifi throttle. These are newly developed systems just within the last year or two and eveyone who has used one say they are very easy to use, easier to do consisting than NCE. Digitrax you need cheat cards to operate - ask me how I know. Digitrax was designed by electrical enginers for people with engineer brains. I don't have an engineer brain although I do have a masters degree in science!
There are other systems out there to consider than the big two that have been around for decades.
I've had a Digitrax system for over 25 years and people had to feed me with a spoon to operate. I've tossed my lot with TCS now that I have layout just about ready to operate.
https://www.tcsdcc.com/
The TCS wifi throttles are widely praised as being much nicer to operate than those that come with the Digitrax and NCE systems. In fact people love the throttles so much, they are using them with Digitrax and NCE systems.
Meow!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I may have missed it, but as I re-read through the entire thread, I don't believe that the OP ever mentioned the specific Digitrax system that is being used at his club.
Hello All,
richhotrainTo me, the most likely cause of the shutdown is the overheating of the booster.
I agree...
richhotrainOn my home layout, powered by an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro, I have never once inadvertently shutdown down my layout.
I am not familiar with the Digitrax method of shutting down the entire layout- -cutting booster power.
After reviewing the NCE Power Pro System Reference Manual; pg. 61, a complete shutdown- -cutting booster power- -requires three (3) distinct and deliberate presses of the "Emergency Stop Button".
reasearchhoundThe current thinking is it might simply be human error from those members using the throttles accidentally hitting the shut down button.
That seems unlikely.
snjroyIt's quite easy to turn the system off with EngineDriver (a cellphone application), via Wifi.
But according to the OP...
reasearchhoundThat function has now been disabled and many members are now using their phones as throttles but we haven't tested the layout to see if the problem has been "fixed".
If the "Shut Down" function was disabled are you speculating that the WiFi throttles override the command station?
richhotrainIf the cause of the shutdown is a member pressing a button on his throttle, something is very wrong there.
I'm of the opinion- -like others- -it's a thermal shutdown caused by either poor airflow to the booster(s) or amperage overloading of the system.
CNR378A heat issue due to the location of the CS and boosters maybe needing better air flow?
betamaxProbable cause is overheating of the booster.
rrebellSounds like overheating to me...
wjstixEverytime they had an open house, the layout would shut down repeatedly. From what I could work out, it was underpowered.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Sometimes, speculation is all that we can engage in because of the fact situation. I have gone back over this entire thread, and I find a lot of good advice about possible reasons for the shutdown, Digitrax versus NCE, and the recommended division of the layout into power districts. The main issue here is the shutdown of the entire layout during prolonged periods of use.
To me, the most likely cause of the shutdown is the overheating of the booster. If the cause of the shutdown is a member pressing a button on his throttle, something is very wrong there. On my home layout, powered by an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro, I have never once inadvertently shutdown down my layout.
It's quite easy to turn the system off with EngineDriver (a cellphone application), via Wifi.
Simon
The more I read and reread the OP it occurs to me they are using one booster with no power districts.
reasearchhound...we have had some issues with it shutting down during periods of prolonged heavy use...
That would explain the entire layout shutting down.
It seems that there are two (2) components to this thread:
As we all agree Digitrax DCC systems- -when properly installed- -is a robust system, and replacing it with a different manufacturer might not cure their issues.
If the membership is dissatisfied with the functions, ergonomics and/or features of Digitrax that is a separate issue.
Until we hear back from the OP it's pure speculation on all our parts.
maxman reasearchhound Current thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles,
reasearchhound
Current thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles,
Yes, I'm not clear how they could turn the DCC system off from their throttles - is it a function button or something on the throttle or ??
snjroy Agreed, I should have written "a bus" instead of "one bus". Simon
Agreed, I should have written "a bus" instead of "one bus".
snjroy At our club, we have a Digitrax system and the guys divided the layout into 6 blocks. In addition to boosters, we have auto shut-off devices for each block. That way, if there is a short in one block, it does not affect the other locos in the other blocks. I did not install these myself, but I'm guessing that it's a pretty easy install if you kept your wiring clean (i.e., using one bus). Simon
At our club, we have a Digitrax system and the guys divided the layout into 6 blocks. In addition to boosters, we have auto shut-off devices for each block. That way, if there is a short in one block, it does not affect the other locos in the other blocks. I did not install these myself, but I'm guessing that it's a pretty easy install if you kept your wiring clean (i.e., using one bus).
hon30critterThere is the possibility that the problem lies outside of the DCC system. You could spend a fortune on a new system only to have the problem recur.
As the old saying goes, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
No matter the DCC system- -if the problem(s) is/are not resolved- -buying a new system won't cure it.
reasearchhoundI am not the electronics guy in our club...
Perhaps they need to be included in this discussion.
Other things to consider...
Do the members bring and run their own locomotives and/or rolling stock?
Are there club standards for locomotives and rolling stock?
If there are standards, how are locomotives and rolling stock inspected to make sure they conform to club standards?
reasearchhoundWhat I really want to know is if there are specific pluses or minuses between the two operating systems that would indicate one is far superior than the other.
That question might be better answered by your members.
I suggest a survey of the members might be needed.
Some questions to ask:
Some general running questions to determine which system might fit the clubs needs...
When consisting (MU-ing) locomotives how does the club prefer to handle this:
A feature of Digitrax throttles- -as you may know- -is two (2) throttle knobs so the user can control two locomotives from the same throttle.
Some people find the old Digitrax throttles are too bulky and cumbersome while the newer throttles have better ergonomics.
Another reason I chose NCE was the ergonomics of their throttles and a thumb wheel over the knobs on Digitrax throttles.
The way NCE handles advance consisting makes it very easy to make and break consists for switching or adding helpers.
Does or will the club use automated running software, ie JMRI Decoder Pro, or other software?
If using wireless capabilities, understand for NCE throttles use a proprietary radio system and to add smartphones or tablets a WiFi interface is necessary.
To say which system is superior over the other is like the "Ford vs. Chevy" debate.
Both have their strengths and weaknesses according to their devotees and detractors.
There is no one simple answer.
By considering the questions I have posed- -along with others, and any you might think of- -the club can come to a compromise that works for the members.
I think you have a short in the track that is caused by a gap being spanned as it heats up. Seen a gap compleatly close on mine by a temporary short that finally permanintly shorted, only way I would have ever found it.
reasearchhound We have a string contingent of anti Digitrax members who feel we should abandon it,
the MD&WV club has been using Digitrax without such problems for decades during long week long open houses. The club has air conditioning and it does have fans behind the boosters
the layout has lost track power for no apparent reason. our best guess is people inadvertently hitting the wrong buttons on the new controllers. There are menu items for turning it on/off with the DT602d controllers. Power is quickly restored when using those options
section 5.4 of the DT602d manual says to press Power/Back key to turn track power back on
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
reasearchhound I am not the electronics guy in our club so all I can tell you is that during periods of prolonged heavy use the operating system simply shuts down so that everything stops. Overheating does not seem to be the issue, it has been extensively checked into (although the way things stop operating would seem indicate that could be the problem). Current thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles, or that more boosters are needed.
I am not the electronics guy in our club so all I can tell you is that during periods of prolonged heavy use the operating system simply shuts down so that everything stops. Overheating does not seem to be the issue, it has been extensively checked into (although the way things stop operating would seem indicate that could be the problem). Current thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles, or that more boosters are needed.
Are you monitoring LocoNet with JMRI or another tool? If it's user error with the throttles, that will tell you right away. And even if it's something else, LocoNet may still give you a clue.
reasearchhound What I really want to know is if there are specific pluses or minuses between the two operating systems that would indicate one is far superior than the other.
What I really want to know is if there are specific pluses or minuses between the two operating systems that would indicate one is far superior than the other.
reasearchhoundCurrent thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles,
Seems to me that you should be able to disable this feature.
I was an alumni member of my old college's model railroad club for a while. Everytime they had an open house, the layout would shut down repeatedly. From what I could work out, it was underpowered. I made a point when I built my home layout to avoid that so it is (I'm sure) overpowered, with three boosters spread out around the layout.
FWIW I started with Digitrax, but found their radio control system to be very hit-and-miss, even with multiple receivers. I switched to CVP, and can operate from anywhere in the basement with just one receiver.
Hi Dan,
Suggestion: You might want to edit your subject title since MRC is not in the discussion.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Sounds like overheating to me but could be user error. If you change out your system you could just go with a newer Digitrax. The real difference I think personaly between NCE and Digitrax are the throttles. I personaly like the Digitrax as you can get old school feal throttles and very simple ones. NCE does some advanced stuff easier so it boils down to what kind of members do you have and what do they all have at home also if only a test setup.