Good luck.
We have our board meeting a week from tomorrow night so things should be decided at that point. I'll let you all know what the final decision is.
Thanks again for the feedback all of you have provided.
I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this.
Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train.
The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!
The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along.
IC_Tom YoHo1975 This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better. But if you like it then that's all that matters. I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems. Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though You must have a different definition of ergonomics. Are the throttle enclosures straight or curved? Are the knobs tactile and of decent size? Are buttons shaped all the same or are they different, depending on function? Is there a hammerhead hanging off the end of your hand? You could argue (and win) a lack of ergo with the 400-series, but it's been years now since the 600 series.
YoHo1975 This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better. But if you like it then that's all that matters. I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems. Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though
This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better.
But if you like it then that's all that matters.
I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems.
Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though
You must have a different definition of ergonomics. Are the throttle enclosures straight or curved? Are the knobs tactile and of decent size? Are buttons shaped all the same or are they different, depending on function? Is there a hammerhead hanging off the end of your hand?
You could argue (and win) a lack of ergo with the 400-series, but it's been years now since the 600 series.
The 600 series has curves that need not exist, the buttons are odd shaped and all over the place making it difficult to use muscle memory.
The UWT-100 and 50 (I prefer the 100 myself) Have simple clean lines, the common shape that anyone who has used a TV remote control is comfortable with. Every button is within reach with no stretching. It is one of the quickest throttles I've ever picked up. And it's the only throttle I've ever used that felt comfortable in the hand all the time.
Most buttons on the TCS are the same size, but, the 4 programable function buttons on the 100 all have pips on them to indicate 1,2,3,4 which is a consistant and understantable tactile feel and the speed buttons are different sized.
The 602 has buttons above the screen and below. It's an ergonomic mess. If you're running a train, you can't take a glance at the screen without moving your hand and there are reach issues that suggest it was designed for two handed operation.
I regularly run with the UWT-100 in one hand and my orders or an uncoupling pick in the other and I don't ever have to look at the throttle or use my uncoupling hand.
I don't want to oversell the Hammerhead. I think it's too heavy and the button layout leaves a lot to be desired. but compared to its digitrax contemporaries, it was much better.
As far as cvs go, I do all my programming with a dcs 51. I dont care about sound as I am hard of hearing so I am not interested in sound. As to ergonomics I use a 400 throttle and a couple of others I am so used to them that they are easy to use. I suppose its what u get used to.
Mike
I didn't know that limitation with Digitrax (lack of extended CVs) but anyone exclusively programming with a DCC system throttle is, saying it nicely, underutilizing commonly available tools.
I don't know. I'm not a salesman. And I'm not sure what you need out of a system.
I could probably convince you to at least try a UWT throttle. That's $200-$300 (assuming you already have WiThrottle support) The UWT throttles are much more comfortable in the hand and I believe more logically laid out than the Hammerhead and I'd argue also than the Cab06 throttles.
Now, a more interesting question would be, if your PH Pro Base station straight up died and was unrepairable, or it would cost a significant amount of money to repair. Could I convince you to switch to CS-105.
Maybe I could. You can drop the CS-105 right into the PH Pros spot. Plug in the boosters and the throttle bus and turn it on and it would immediately work. So it is money you would be spending either way in that scenario.
Probably if he can give you a good discount.
I am an NCE fan. However, I did buy a TCS UWT-50. Only because I operate on somebody else's Digitrax infested railroad and the Digitrax radio I had previously purchased didn't function worth a darn.
YoHo1975 betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly. Then there is cost. The first complaint is always cost, especially when some of the higher end European systems are mentioned. TCS invested a lot of time and money in their system, and they are a small player compared to NCE and Digitrax with decades of presence in the market. Should they design systems for the present, instead of relying on their current product lines? Of course. With no serious competition, they do not feel the need to match the more advanced systems from other brands. I agree with this...to a point. And it's quite hard to judge things when we're discussing small private companies, but TCS has made quite the splash with the UWT series controllers. The fact that Digitrax and NCE users seek them out suggests that a fair number of users of those systems DON'T in fact think they are meeting customer needs. DCC is a fairly expensive investment though, so the hill to climb to convince someone to replace the whole thing is high.
betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly. Then there is cost. The first complaint is always cost, especially when some of the higher end European systems are mentioned. TCS invested a lot of time and money in their system, and they are a small player compared to NCE and Digitrax with decades of presence in the market. Should they design systems for the present, instead of relying on their current product lines? Of course. With no serious competition, they do not feel the need to match the more advanced systems from other brands.
YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system
Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system
I agree with this...to a point. And it's quite hard to judge things when we're discussing small private companies, but TCS has made quite the splash with the UWT series controllers. The fact that Digitrax and NCE users seek them out suggests that a fair number of users of those systems DON'T in fact think they are meeting customer needs.
DCC is a fairly expensive investment though, so the hill to climb to convince someone to replace the whole thing is high.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi,
I have extensive experience with both systems. And also, I am an electronics engineer. There is no can of worms. Since either system is not gesigned for Operations, but mostly for Programming, my main Use Case was Programming.
And from that perspective, Digitrax cannot program extended CV (confirmed by Digitrax engineers) which NCE can and does seamlessly.
There you go. Enjoy...
gregc i'm curious how those with Digitrax program decoders? At the club, a PC running DecoderPro and separate command station are used. I use an NCE PowerCab to program PSX boards on the layout it seems that the common use path is for someone to buy a PowerCab and then upgrade to a PowerPro. But the PowerCab is then useful for programming decoders, not as conveniently as with DecoderPro, or testing off the layout is the something similar to a PowerCab from Digitrax?
i'm curious how those with Digitrax program decoders?
At the club, a PC running DecoderPro and separate command station are used. I use an NCE PowerCab to program PSX boards on the layout
it seems that the common use path is for someone to buy a PowerCab and then upgrade to a PowerPro. But the PowerCab is then useful for programming decoders, not as conveniently as with DecoderPro, or testing off the layout
is the something similar to a PowerCab from Digitrax?
Simon
betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
betamax IC_Tom Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future. Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following. Digitrax has been around since before the adoption of the DCC Standard, showing one of the first DCC systems at the time the standard was announced. NCE began as a sub-contractor to Wangrow, supplying a number of components for the SystemOne. NCE realized the SystemOne, while being a top of the line system, was falling behind Digitrax's offerings. NCE designed a successor, but Wangrow was not interested, so that product became the first NCE system. Their Power Pro system has been around for decades now, with little evolution aside from software updates, mostly to fix bugs. It recently recieved a major update with new hardware. The Power Cab has been around for at least 20 years, with little change outside of software updates. Digitrax has been busy during the same period introducing new devices and DCC systems with additional features, creating their own ecosystem in the process.
IC_Tom Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future. Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following.
Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future.
Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following.
IC_Tom I don't have the experience that many of you have. My primary interest is as a single user controlling multiple trains with computer automation. I've selected iTrain as my basis and the selection of Digitrax as my DCC foundation was mainly swayed by this from the iTrain manual: NCE Power Cab/Pro An interface for the NCE has been added, because of many requests from users from the UK, but it is not ideal for computer control. iTrain does not receive the changes on the throttle via the computer interface, and so you can control it either manually or completely automatically via iTrain but not combined. This interface should still be considered experimental for the time being. I have been around long enough to build a DCC-EX station, program many locos with Decoder Pro, use several smartphones with Engine Driver using either blutetooth with DCC-EX or a Digitrax LNWI, etc. I started with a Zephyr Xpress and while I didn't really like that and sold it, it wasn't because it was Digitrax, rather the too-close connection in operation and appearance with a DC power pack. Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future. Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following.
I don't have the experience that many of you have. My primary interest is as a single user controlling multiple trains with computer automation. I've selected iTrain as my basis and the selection of Digitrax as my DCC foundation was mainly swayed by this from the iTrain manual:
NCE Power Cab/Pro
An interface for the NCE has been added, because of many requests from users from the UK, but it is not ideal for computer control. iTrain does not receive the changes on the throttle via the computer interface, and so you can control it either manually or completely automatically via iTrain but not combined. This interface should still be considered experimental for the time being.
I have been around long enough to build a DCC-EX station, program many locos with Decoder Pro, use several smartphones with Engine Driver using either blutetooth with DCC-EX or a Digitrax LNWI, etc. I started with a Zephyr Xpress and while I didn't really like that and sold it, it wasn't because it was Digitrax, rather the too-close connection in operation and appearance with a DC power pack.
betamax Digitrax has been around since before the adoption of the DCC Standard, showing one of the first DCC systems at the time the standard was announced. NCE began as a sub-contractor to Wangrow, supplying a number of components for the SystemOne. NCE realized the SystemOne, while being a top of the line system, was falling behind Digitrax's offerings. NCE designed a successor, but Wangrow was not interested, so that product became the first NCE system. Their Power Pro system has been around for decades now, with little evolution aside from software updates, mostly to fix bugs. It recently recieved a major update with new hardware. The Power Cab has been around for at least 20 years, with little change outside of software updates. Digitrax has been busy during the same period introducing new devices and DCC systems with additional features, creating their own ecosystem in the process.
Anecdotal evidence would suggest that more users prefer NCE than Digitrax for a variety of reasons. I am certain that can be disputed, but that is my takeaway.
YoHo1975 richhotrain Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example. Rich Rich, I'm curious which ESU system you are referring to here. The ESU ECOS is a really strong seller in Europe with a very unique set of features and is generally better than most of its competitors. Curious if that was the system you were referring to or an older one?
richhotrain Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example. Rich
Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example.
Rich, I'm curious which ESU system you are referring to here. The ESU ECOS is a really strong seller in Europe with a very unique set of features and is generally better than most of its competitors. Curious if that was the system you were referring to or an older one?
Hello All,
YoHo1975NOBODY has said ANYONES opinions were irrelevant.
Uh...
ALEXANDER WOOD...not particularly relevant...
YoHo1975This is insulting and I kindly ask that you put some more effort into reading people's posts.
Yes- -I agree- -after thoroughly reading all the posts.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Also, which MRC system are you referring to? the Next will have the ability to use old Prodigy bus throttles and there will also be the ability to adapt the new Next LCC throttles to an old Prodigy system
I mean, it's a DCC system. It fundamentally will be interoperable. By that logic, the Digitrax dcs50, 51, and 52 are all the same system
richhotrain YoHo1975 Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade. But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship. Exactly. Rich
YoHo1975 Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade. But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship.
Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade.
But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship.
Exactly.
The way that this was originally presented was that NCE was shipping a "new system". This is a mis-representation so far as I'm concerned.
It may be "new" to the extent that up to date components are being used, and there may be added features. However, as far as I can tell it still does everything the "old" unit did and is backward compatible.
It is not "new" like some of the MRC systems that don't talk to each other.
Thanks, YoHo.
We probably need to wait for some product reviews to come out by users.