betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly. Then there is cost. The first complaint is always cost, especially when some of the higher end European systems are mentioned. TCS invested a lot of time and money in their system, and they are a small player compared to NCE and Digitrax with decades of presence in the market. Should they design systems for the present, instead of relying on their current product lines? Of course. With no serious competition, they do not feel the need to match the more advanced systems from other brands.
YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system
Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system
I agree with this...to a point. And it's quite hard to judge things when we're discussing small private companies, but TCS has made quite the splash with the UWT series controllers. The fact that Digitrax and NCE users seek them out suggests that a fair number of users of those systems DON'T in fact think they are meeting customer needs.
DCC is a fairly expensive investment though, so the hill to climb to convince someone to replace the whole thing is high.
YoHo1975 betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly. Then there is cost. The first complaint is always cost, especially when some of the higher end European systems are mentioned. TCS invested a lot of time and money in their system, and they are a small player compared to NCE and Digitrax with decades of presence in the market. Should they design systems for the present, instead of relying on their current product lines? Of course. With no serious competition, they do not feel the need to match the more advanced systems from other brands. I agree with this...to a point. And it's quite hard to judge things when we're discussing small private companies, but TCS has made quite the splash with the UWT series controllers. The fact that Digitrax and NCE users seek them out suggests that a fair number of users of those systems DON'T in fact think they are meeting customer needs. DCC is a fairly expensive investment though, so the hill to climb to convince someone to replace the whole thing is high.
Rich
Alton Junction
Probably if he can give you a good discount.
I am an NCE fan. However, I did buy a TCS UWT-50. Only because I operate on somebody else's Digitrax infested railroad and the Digitrax radio I had previously purchased didn't function worth a darn.
I don't know. I'm not a salesman. And I'm not sure what you need out of a system.
I could probably convince you to at least try a UWT throttle. That's $200-$300 (assuming you already have WiThrottle support) The UWT throttles are much more comfortable in the hand and I believe more logically laid out than the Hammerhead and I'd argue also than the Cab06 throttles.
Now, a more interesting question would be, if your PH Pro Base station straight up died and was unrepairable, or it would cost a significant amount of money to repair. Could I convince you to switch to CS-105.
Maybe I could. You can drop the CS-105 right into the PH Pros spot. Plug in the boosters and the throttle bus and turn it on and it would immediately work. So it is money you would be spending either way in that scenario.
YoHo1975 This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better. But if you like it then that's all that matters. I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems. Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though
This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better.
But if you like it then that's all that matters.
I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems.
Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though
You must have a different definition of ergonomics. Are the throttle enclosures straight or curved? Are the knobs tactile and of decent size? Are buttons shaped all the same or are they different, depending on function? Is there a hammerhead hanging off the end of your hand?
You could argue (and win) a lack of ergo with the 400-series, but it's been years now since the 600 series.
I didn't know that limitation with Digitrax (lack of extended CVs) but anyone exclusively programming with a DCC system throttle is, saying it nicely, underutilizing commonly available tools.
As far as cvs go, I do all my programming with a dcs 51. I dont care about sound as I am hard of hearing so I am not interested in sound. As to ergonomics I use a 400 throttle and a couple of others I am so used to them that they are easy to use. I suppose its what u get used to.
Mike
IC_Tom YoHo1975 This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better. But if you like it then that's all that matters. I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems. Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though You must have a different definition of ergonomics. Are the throttle enclosures straight or curved? Are the knobs tactile and of decent size? Are buttons shaped all the same or are they different, depending on function? Is there a hammerhead hanging off the end of your hand? You could argue (and win) a lack of ergo with the 400-series, but it's been years now since the 600 series.
The 600 series has curves that need not exist, the buttons are odd shaped and all over the place making it difficult to use muscle memory.
The UWT-100 and 50 (I prefer the 100 myself) Have simple clean lines, the common shape that anyone who has used a TV remote control is comfortable with. Every button is within reach with no stretching. It is one of the quickest throttles I've ever picked up. And it's the only throttle I've ever used that felt comfortable in the hand all the time.
Most buttons on the TCS are the same size, but, the 4 programable function buttons on the 100 all have pips on them to indicate 1,2,3,4 which is a consistant and understantable tactile feel and the speed buttons are different sized.
The 602 has buttons above the screen and below. It's an ergonomic mess. If you're running a train, you can't take a glance at the screen without moving your hand and there are reach issues that suggest it was designed for two handed operation.
I regularly run with the UWT-100 in one hand and my orders or an uncoupling pick in the other and I don't ever have to look at the throttle or use my uncoupling hand.
I don't want to oversell the Hammerhead. I think it's too heavy and the button layout leaves a lot to be desired. but compared to its digitrax contemporaries, it was much better.
I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this.
Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train.
The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!
The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along.
We have our board meeting a week from tomorrow night so things should be decided at that point. I'll let you all know what the final decision is.
Thanks again for the feedback all of you have provided.
Good luck.
YoHo1975, I'm not familiar with the UWT-100 throttle system. Can just a throttle be purchased and used on a Digitrax system? What's involved with that? Thnx in advance for your info.
Regards, Chris
YoHo1975 I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this. Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train. The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the same as I was expressing mine. It seems you feel very strongly about it, so this Engineer will leave the conversation.
YoHo1975 The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!
So.. you do understand the 600 series are two throttles in one package, right?
Perhaps you should be comparing the Digitrax UT6 series to TCS instead?
IC_Tom YoHo1975 I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this. Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train. The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the same as I was expressing mine. It seems you feel very strongly about it, so this Engineer will leave the conversation.
I don't want to stop you from having your opinion. And I am certainly disagreeing with you, but I want to explain why and where I'm coming from on it. Like I said, I was being blunt, but if the goal is to give the OP good advice, then I feel like explaining where the opinion comes from.
I was being honest in my perception that I don't hear people describe Digitrax as a company that does good ergonomics. SO hearing other thoughts on it is a good thing.
Part of why I have a strong opinion is that the TCS team explained their decisions to potential customers openly on open platforms and got feedback on it. They took that feedback and made changes. Which I think it critical to good design. I like what they came up with, but even if I didn't personally care for the design, knowing that did that tells me a lot.
Tophias YoHo1975, I'm not familiar with the UWT-100 throttle system. Can just a throttle be purchased and used on a Digitrax system? What's involved with that? Thnx in advance for your info. Regards, Chris
Chris,
https://www.tcsdcc.com/uwt-100
the TCS throttles have been out for a number of years now.
The Throttles are Wifi Throttles that support 2 modes.
Mode 1 is Withrottle. So it works the same as a smart phone running engine driver. To use it with Digitrax, you would need either JMRI running with WiThrottle. Or an LNWI.
Turn the throttle on. Choose the proper Wifi network and it will connect just as a Cell phone would.
Mode 2 is LCC mode. That mode works with DCC systems that support LCC. At this point that means TCS, DIY systems or, sometime later this year, the new MRC Next system.
The protothrottle is also available for Digitrax(WiThrottle) if that type of throttle interests you. And there are a number of projects out there to build your own Withrottle based wifi throttle.
If you are into electronics/Arduino DIY projects, this one can be fun. There are versions from the most basic utility throttle to a full feature throttle.
YoHo1975 Good luck.
Thanks. It will be what it is. Personally I am voting to keep what we have - but update and improve it. I just don't think the issues we have are so serious and frequent that an entire replacement is needed, or desirable. But, as president I mainly just run the meeting - and I am just one vote out of the 12 on the board. Plus, if we voted to change systems, it would still need to be approved by the membership - though generally if the board recommends something, the membership generally agrees with it.
Maybe suggest buying something like a UWT-100 or 50 and see how people feel about it.
That's how my club started. We bought one and let people try it.
AEP528 YoHo1975 The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! So.. you do understand the 600 series are two throttles in one package, right? Perhaps you should be comparing the Digitrax UT6 series to TCS instead?
I am well aware.
The TCS UWT-100 also can do 2 throttles at once.
YoHo1975 Maybe suggest buying something like a UWT-100 or 50 and see how people feel about it. That's how my club started. We bought one and let people try it.
Most of our members are now using their smart phones as throttles.
Also, at this point I don't want to muddy the waters any further by throwing another component into the mix.
Makes sense.
If they're all using their smart phones, then for the most part, all this discussion is somewhat moot. It doesn't matter what system you use. And if a member does want something different, they can buy the UWT, or build their own throttle and the club doesn't need to change anything.
jjdamnitWe gave our honest opinions of the systems we own and use along with recommendations about the two systems in question. Others chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies. If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade.
Others chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies.
If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade.
The discussion was about switching to different DCC system. The OP needs to fix the problems with the layout and/or Digitrax system first, but there are two major reasons why TCS makes much more sense than NCE as an alternative:
1. The Digitrax throttles can be used with the TCS system, in addition to NCE throttles.
2. While existing NCE systems are "good enough" for many modelers, they have no value proposition over the almost identically priced TCS system that is far more modern and advanced.
Just to be clear, since people commonly twist what I'm saying, I'm not saying that everyone with NCE should trash their system and get the TCS system. What I'm saying is that for someone buying a new system today, there is no value proposition for NCE when the TCS system is about the same price. Other options are less expensive or have other unique features and may be worthwhile to look at.
reasearchhoundMost of the members have switched to using their smart phones as throttles. But a few of the old timers still prefer to use a throttle, and some of the younger members (12-14 years old) have parents who don't allow them to have smart phones yet.
I'd get a couple of TCS throttles or have people get their own. At the point that you're using mostly Wi-Fi throttles, it doesn't really matter who made the command station, other than consisting if you want to get way into the weeds on that.
richhotrainIt's hard to imagine a system superior to NCE's Advanced Consisting which can be easily done POM in just a few quick keystrokes.
TCS has all the features of NCE-style consisting plus more with command-station-based consisting. It is the first system to best NCE's consisting, which was NCE's last competitive advantage over other systems, since their throttle ease of use was matched by Digitrax in 2006, and their radio performance was beaten by TCS in 2020 (and previously by European systems).
Renegade1c is spot on in virtually everything, including LocoNet, throttles, and consisting.
There is no reason for current NCE users to upgrade to the new NCE system. The upgraded performance would really only apply to very large club and modular layouts, but even then they'd be better off just upgrading to TCS instead.
The TCS UWT-100 is the evolution of the Wangrow/NCE MasterCab/ProCab, just with 25 years of technology advancement to miniaturize the throttle properly to the dimensions of a normal human hand.
richhotrainThere was a guy who no longer inhabits this forum who owned an ESU Cab Control 50310 and had no end of troubles with it. That was a few years ago, so I had to go searching for the exact model. As I read some reviews, some people seem to like the system, so maybe it was the guy's fault that he didn't know how to operate it. But, at the time, I had convinced myself that it was a newer system that went astray trying to improve on existing systems.
ESU ECoS is a top-notch DCC system. It's beyond bizarre to say that a DCC system is bad because "a guy" couldn't get it to work properly. If that was how we judged DCC systems, we couldn't use DCC at all, because I'm sure there is "a guy" who has royally screwed up a Digitrax system, "a guy" who has royally screwed up an NCE system, etc.
IC_TomDigitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future.
Digitrax was the best DCC system bar none in 2007. Today, they have fallen behind. They have at least introduced new products, but their quality control and manuals seem to have gone down the drain, and they have moved away from interoperability like they offered with older hardware like the BDL168, SE8c, and DS64 towards a closed ecosystem that relies on the command station also being Digitrax. They have dug their heels in on Transponding, LocoNet, and Duplex over the now open standards of RailCom, LCC, and Wi-Fi.
betamaxNCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is.
I can't say whether NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, but they don't seem very reactive to what that customer base wants.
Digitrax and NCE, the two largest DCC companies in North America, currently exist purely due to market inertia, and not because of the merits of their product offerings.
Meanwhile, TCS is absolutely in lock step with what the North American operations-based market wants in a DCC system with a focus on throttle ergonomics, reliable wireless connectivity, the most robust consisting features of any system, and more.
ALEXANDER WOOD Digitrax was the best DCC system bar none in 2007. Today, they have fallen behind. They have at least introduced new products, but their quality control and manuals seem to have gone down the drain, and they have moved away from interoperability like they offered with older hardware like the BDL168, SE8c, and DS64 towards a closed ecosystem that relies on the command station also being Digitrax. They have dug their heels in on Transponding, LocoNet, and Duplex over the now open standards of RailCom, LCC, and Wi-Fi.
Simon
snjroyWell, I have not done extensive research about this, but I can say from my own experience that the Digitrax Wifi component works very well. I use my smartphone+EngineDriver combo that will easily allow me to do advanced consisting. As for their quality control, I read this forum pretty much everyday and I have not seen any widespread complaints about that.
There are two issues here. First is that the LNWI is a very limited device that's poorly designed, as it can't attach to a home Wi-Fi network, and it can't release any of the four slots back to be re-used by other devices.
However, that all is missing the point, which is that Digitrax has decided to double down on Duplex over using Wi-Fi for their throttles. The LNWI just offers WiThrottle like JMRI does, which does not offer full system functionality like consisting and system configuration. Meanwhile, Digitrax's own throttles are not using Wi-Fi, and the systems are not Wi-Fi/Ethernet native like modern DCC systems are.
WHile I have high hopes for Firecrown media's ownership and the announcement that the software is changing emminently. Right now and over the past year, I would not consider this forum to be particularly active such that monitoring it would give you a good idea of what is going on with model railroaders and DCC.
Well, we had our board meeting and 10 out of 11 voted to keep our Digitrax system, but begin swapping out our older 5amp boosters for new 8amp ones. I am pleased with the results.
How many 5 Amp boosters did you have and what's your Circuit breaker situation?
I am not surprised that the vote was 10/11 to keep the existing Digitrax system. Primary reasons for keeping it probably are: 1) lower cash outlay, and 2) members are already familiar with the function and operation eliminating learning a new system (except for noobs of course - then the learning curve is "up-there" from my past experience).
I purchased a Digitrax Chief system many years ago and found the learning curve, or memorization of key strokes was not working for me. The area where I live, I have noticed that most of the clubs use Digitrax, and when I have ran trains with one or two of them, someone always has to do the keystrokes before handing the throttle to me. It reminded me of things desgined by engineers make the most sense to engineers. I am not an engineer. As I get older I want something that requires less of a learning curve. So when it came to wanting a new DCC system, I needed to look elsewhere. Now that I have a layout that is nearly ready to start running trains (wiring is just about complete) I started researching options. At first I considering NCE (which was purported to be easier to do consisting with), but TCS was newly offering their system and as I learned more about it and read the feedback of users of the system, I became convinced that, for a similar cost, it made more sense to me to throw my money at TCS. I chose to purchase a TCS CS-105 command station based system.
Back to the subject at hand:
It seems logical for any club that is using Digitrax or NCE, mainly due to inertia and knowing those systems for years, to stay with those systems for the forseeable future, or at least until the system dies. Only when they are faced with complete replacement may it makes sense to change "brands". Even then the inertia and incumbant knowledge may cause the same brand to be kept when laying out replacement funds. This seems to be the primary advantage to Digitrax and NCE these days, shear inertia.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
reasearchhound Well, we had our board meeting and 10 out of 11 voted to keep our Digitrax system, but begin swapping out our older 5amp boosters for new 8amp ones. I am pleased with the results.
Sure glad that I'm not a member. And I'm happy that your organization is so flush with funds that they can afford to spend several hundreds of dollars to replace 5 amp boosters with 8 amp boosters, possibly unnecessarily,
Way at the beginning you stated that the railroad was shutting down, possibly because some person or persons was pushing an emergency stop key. You said they were going to test for this, but I see nowhere that this has been done.
If it were I, I'd make darn sure I had identified the problem before spending a dime.