betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly. Then there is cost. The first complaint is always cost, especially when some of the higher end European systems are mentioned. TCS invested a lot of time and money in their system, and they are a small player compared to NCE and Digitrax with decades of presence in the market. Should they design systems for the present, instead of relying on their current product lines? Of course. With no serious competition, they do not feel the need to match the more advanced systems from other brands.
YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system
Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system
I agree with this...to a point. And it's quite hard to judge things when we're discussing small private companies, but TCS has made quite the splash with the UWT series controllers. The fact that Digitrax and NCE users seek them out suggests that a fair number of users of those systems DON'T in fact think they are meeting customer needs.
DCC is a fairly expensive investment though, so the hill to climb to convince someone to replace the whole thing is high.
YoHo1975 betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly. Then there is cost. The first complaint is always cost, especially when some of the higher end European systems are mentioned. TCS invested a lot of time and money in their system, and they are a small player compared to NCE and Digitrax with decades of presence in the market. Should they design systems for the present, instead of relying on their current product lines? Of course. With no serious competition, they do not feel the need to match the more advanced systems from other brands. I agree with this...to a point. And it's quite hard to judge things when we're discussing small private companies, but TCS has made quite the splash with the UWT series controllers. The fact that Digitrax and NCE users seek them out suggests that a fair number of users of those systems DON'T in fact think they are meeting customer needs. DCC is a fairly expensive investment though, so the hill to climb to convince someone to replace the whole thing is high.
Rich
Alton Junction
Probably if he can give you a good discount.
I am an NCE fan. However, I did buy a TCS UWT-50. Only because I operate on somebody else's Digitrax infested railroad and the Digitrax radio I had previously purchased didn't function worth a darn.
I don't know. I'm not a salesman. And I'm not sure what you need out of a system.
I could probably convince you to at least try a UWT throttle. That's $200-$300 (assuming you already have WiThrottle support) The UWT throttles are much more comfortable in the hand and I believe more logically laid out than the Hammerhead and I'd argue also than the Cab06 throttles.
Now, a more interesting question would be, if your PH Pro Base station straight up died and was unrepairable, or it would cost a significant amount of money to repair. Could I convince you to switch to CS-105.
Maybe I could. You can drop the CS-105 right into the PH Pros spot. Plug in the boosters and the throttle bus and turn it on and it would immediately work. So it is money you would be spending either way in that scenario.
YoHo1975 This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better. But if you like it then that's all that matters. I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems. Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though
This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better.
But if you like it then that's all that matters.
I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems.
Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though
You must have a different definition of ergonomics. Are the throttle enclosures straight or curved? Are the knobs tactile and of decent size? Are buttons shaped all the same or are they different, depending on function? Is there a hammerhead hanging off the end of your hand?
You could argue (and win) a lack of ergo with the 400-series, but it's been years now since the 600 series.
I didn't know that limitation with Digitrax (lack of extended CVs) but anyone exclusively programming with a DCC system throttle is, saying it nicely, underutilizing commonly available tools.
As far as cvs go, I do all my programming with a dcs 51. I dont care about sound as I am hard of hearing so I am not interested in sound. As to ergonomics I use a 400 throttle and a couple of others I am so used to them that they are easy to use. I suppose its what u get used to.
Mike
IC_Tom YoHo1975 This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better. But if you like it then that's all that matters. I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems. Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though You must have a different definition of ergonomics. Are the throttle enclosures straight or curved? Are the knobs tactile and of decent size? Are buttons shaped all the same or are they different, depending on function? Is there a hammerhead hanging off the end of your hand? You could argue (and win) a lack of ergo with the 400-series, but it's been years now since the 600 series.
The 600 series has curves that need not exist, the buttons are odd shaped and all over the place making it difficult to use muscle memory.
The UWT-100 and 50 (I prefer the 100 myself) Have simple clean lines, the common shape that anyone who has used a TV remote control is comfortable with. Every button is within reach with no stretching. It is one of the quickest throttles I've ever picked up. And it's the only throttle I've ever used that felt comfortable in the hand all the time.
Most buttons on the TCS are the same size, but, the 4 programable function buttons on the 100 all have pips on them to indicate 1,2,3,4 which is a consistant and understantable tactile feel and the speed buttons are different sized.
The 602 has buttons above the screen and below. It's an ergonomic mess. If you're running a train, you can't take a glance at the screen without moving your hand and there are reach issues that suggest it was designed for two handed operation.
I regularly run with the UWT-100 in one hand and my orders or an uncoupling pick in the other and I don't ever have to look at the throttle or use my uncoupling hand.
I don't want to oversell the Hammerhead. I think it's too heavy and the button layout leaves a lot to be desired. but compared to its digitrax contemporaries, it was much better.
I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this.
Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train.
The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!
The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along.
We have our board meeting a week from tomorrow night so things should be decided at that point. I'll let you all know what the final decision is.
Thanks again for the feedback all of you have provided.
Good luck.
YoHo1975, I'm not familiar with the UWT-100 throttle system. Can just a throttle be purchased and used on a Digitrax system? What's involved with that? Thnx in advance for your info.
Regards, Chris
YoHo1975 I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this. Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train. The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the same as I was expressing mine. It seems you feel very strongly about it, so this Engineer will leave the conversation.
YoHo1975 The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!
So.. you do understand the 600 series are two throttles in one package, right?
Perhaps you should be comparing the Digitrax UT6 series to TCS instead?
IC_Tom YoHo1975 I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this. Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train. The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the same as I was expressing mine. It seems you feel very strongly about it, so this Engineer will leave the conversation.
I don't want to stop you from having your opinion. And I am certainly disagreeing with you, but I want to explain why and where I'm coming from on it. Like I said, I was being blunt, but if the goal is to give the OP good advice, then I feel like explaining where the opinion comes from.
I was being honest in my perception that I don't hear people describe Digitrax as a company that does good ergonomics. SO hearing other thoughts on it is a good thing.
Part of why I have a strong opinion is that the TCS team explained their decisions to potential customers openly on open platforms and got feedback on it. They took that feedback and made changes. Which I think it critical to good design. I like what they came up with, but even if I didn't personally care for the design, knowing that did that tells me a lot.
Tophias YoHo1975, I'm not familiar with the UWT-100 throttle system. Can just a throttle be purchased and used on a Digitrax system? What's involved with that? Thnx in advance for your info. Regards, Chris
Chris,
https://www.tcsdcc.com/uwt-100
the TCS throttles have been out for a number of years now.
The Throttles are Wifi Throttles that support 2 modes.
Mode 1 is Withrottle. So it works the same as a smart phone running engine driver. To use it with Digitrax, you would need either JMRI running with WiThrottle. Or an LNWI.
Turn the throttle on. Choose the proper Wifi network and it will connect just as a Cell phone would.
Mode 2 is LCC mode. That mode works with DCC systems that support LCC. At this point that means TCS, DIY systems or, sometime later this year, the new MRC Next system.
The protothrottle is also available for Digitrax(WiThrottle) if that type of throttle interests you. And there are a number of projects out there to build your own Withrottle based wifi throttle.
If you are into electronics/Arduino DIY projects, this one can be fun. There are versions from the most basic utility throttle to a full feature throttle.
YoHo1975 Good luck.
Thanks. It will be what it is. Personally I am voting to keep what we have - but update and improve it. I just don't think the issues we have are so serious and frequent that an entire replacement is needed, or desirable. But, as president I mainly just run the meeting - and I am just one vote out of the 12 on the board. Plus, if we voted to change systems, it would still need to be approved by the membership - though generally if the board recommends something, the membership generally agrees with it.
Maybe suggest buying something like a UWT-100 or 50 and see how people feel about it.
That's how my club started. We bought one and let people try it.
AEP528 YoHo1975 The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! So.. you do understand the 600 series are two throttles in one package, right? Perhaps you should be comparing the Digitrax UT6 series to TCS instead?
I am well aware.
The TCS UWT-100 also can do 2 throttles at once.
YoHo1975 Maybe suggest buying something like a UWT-100 or 50 and see how people feel about it. That's how my club started. We bought one and let people try it.
Most of our members are now using their smart phones as throttles.
Also, at this point I don't want to muddy the waters any further by throwing another component into the mix.
Makes sense.
If they're all using their smart phones, then for the most part, all this discussion is somewhat moot. It doesn't matter what system you use. And if a member does want something different, they can buy the UWT, or build their own throttle and the club doesn't need to change anything.