I'll toss a cat among the pigeons. Some would argue that Digitrax and NCE are both old technology - 30+ year old technology. The OP might want to widen his horizons and think about TCS system - they offer a lower end starter system LT-50 and a higher end system based on the the CS-105 + a wifi throttle. These are newly developed systems just within the last year or two and eveyone who has used one say they are very easy to use, easier to do consisting than NCE. Digitrax you need cheat cards to operate - ask me how I know. Digitrax was designed by electrical enginers for people with engineer brains. I don't have an engineer brain although I do have a masters degree in science!
There are other systems out there to consider than the big two that have been around for decades.
I've had a Digitrax system for over 25 years and people had to feed me with a spoon to operate. I've tossed my lot with TCS now that I have layout just about ready to operate.
https://www.tcsdcc.com/
The TCS wifi throttles are widely praised as being much nicer to operate than those that come with the Digitrax and NCE systems. In fact people love the throttles so much, they are using them with Digitrax and NCE systems.
Meow!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Oh boy. First of all, you are asking the wrong question. I could go on for pages about Digitrax vs. NCE, but that question is missing the forest for the trees. Digitrax and NCE, the two largest DCC companies in North America, currently exist purely due to market inertia, and not because of the merits of their product offerings.
I think the first action your club needs to take is to get the existing system 100% functional before switching to anything else. But if you want to switch to a better system, the question is not Digitrax vs. NCE, it is what DCC system to switch to. It is possible to turn track power off on Digitrax via PWR >>> N- but no one should be doing that during an op session, and if that is the problem, then you've got a member problem as to why people are turning the track power off when they are not authorized to do so.
First, in terms of switching from one system to another, there are people who have switched one way or the other for good reasons, including from a 100% functional Digitrax systems who have switched from one to another for well thought out, specific features, like more reliable radio throttles or double-ended consisting. Then there are people who have switched for bad reasons, like they didn't bother to RTFM, and think that running away from their problems with their current DCC system will magically solve all their problems. Before you even THINK of switching, get your existing system 100% functional, and have specific reasons and features that you want to switch for, not something that you're running from.
Secondly, Digitrax partially unfairly has a reputation as being hard to use, and NCE has an over-hyped reputation for being easy to use. Digitrax's original throttle was hard to use, due to the cost of chips at the time, and the nature of their LocoNet network, compared to NCE's polled serial bus. Digitrax matched NCE's ease of use in 2006 with the DT400 series throttles, but they've since backslid a bit with some bizarre UI/UX design choices in the DT602D and UT6D throttles. Meanwhile, NCE is selling a mediocre and overpriced system that's fundamentally been frozen in time for over 25 years.
Digitrax's LocoNet architecture is far superior to NCE's polled serial bus architecture. NCE has gotten a reputation for being reliable because when you barely change anything for over 25 years, you can have a pretty stable system. Digitrax was hands down the best system from 2006 until they made the disastrous move to Duplex radio. More recently, they have made their accessories more of an ecosystem play and have dug their heels in on LocoNet, Transponding, and Duplex over the open standards of LCC, RailCom, and Wi-Fi. Their product quality, manuals, and general execution on a lot of things seem to have gone from the best in the business to troublesome at best. Digitrax's scheme for powering accessories and LocoNet has never made sense, and ironically, LocoNet licensees in Europe have fixed a lot of the electrical architectural problems with LocoNet in their designs, separating LNet-T and LNet-B.
Third, it is 2024, and there is a good argument to be had that the DCC system doesn't really matter that much, since with JMRI WiThrottle, the TCS UWTs, and ProtoThrottle (if you're into that type of operation), all the DCC system really needs to do is function as a packet converter from serial to DCC. I'd argue that there is a lot more that you can get out of a DCC system, but with JMRI WiThrottle and a TCS UWT, you get an almost idential experience on a Digitrax system as an NCE system as with any other.
The full-fledged DCC systems that people should be looking at in 2024 are:
1. TCS CS-105
2. YaMoRC YD7001 (probably not for a club)
3. ESU Cab Control or ECoS
4. Roco Z21
5. MRC Nexxt (when it comes out)
For smaller home layouts, I'd also add:
1. TCS LT-50
2. SPROG
3. DCC-EX
4. Digitrax DCS52
When you look at modern DCC systems from Digikeijs, YaMoRC, ESU, Roco, TCS, and others, you see a pattern. All of them are three core components that legacy systems don't.
1. Wi-Fi/Ethernet connectivity
2. RailCom support
3. Multi-bus compatibility
Right now the CS-105 is THE premium system to beat, and it's great for clubs since it supports most legacy proprietary throttle systems, including Digitrax, NCE, CVP v4, Lenz, and soon MRC, including the various radio systems for each. Although it's not THAT different from using a legacy proprietary DCC system today where you have TCS UWTs on WiThrottle, anyone who cares about their throttle experience will use the Wi-Fi based throttle of their choice (or ProtoThrottle if it works for that layout and ops scheme), and people who don't will stay on legacy proprietary throttles, which is fine. What you will find is that as time goes on, no one really cares about the legacy proprietary throttles, but the compatibility will get you to people agreeing to adopt it, as it's basically just the command station and a throttle or two, not replacing the command station and ALL the throttles (although again, Wi-Fi throttles still work with any system via WiThrottle).
Out of the modern systems, you will notice that all of them are European except for the TCS CS-105. The CS-105, while pricey, is the only system that has bested NCE's consisting along with focusing on an operation-first North American approach to a modern DCC system.
NCE's main competitive advantages of relative ease of use, mediocre radio throttles (while the other options like Digitrax Duplex were terrible), and double-ended consisting have been chipped away over the years by Digitrax in 2006, TCS in 2020, and TCS again in 2022, respectively have left NCE without any competitive advantage combined with ultra-premium pricing. TCS is a premium priced product with premium features and performance.
The question that NCE is going to have to answer is what their value proposition is when the TCS system does everything NCE does, including NCE's last remaining competitive advantage of consisting, far better than NCE for all of $30 more, with the PH-5R at $700 and the CS-105/UWT-100 at $730. Digitrax doesn't need to match TCS feature wise, as their value proposition is that they are relatively cheap, especially at the entry level.
I've heard the logic of buying what people around you have, or what you have locally available for throttles, but over the years, people have gotten more throttles, and now that's largely irrelevant with Wi-Fi throttles and everyone having a throttle in their pocket all the time if needed.
I 100% agree with Riogrande5761.
Our club has had the CS-105 since beta. We also had an NCE PH Pro system. Just in case the CS-105 beta didn't work out. That proved unnecessary. We are not looking back.
We currently have the CS-105, an additional B-106 booster. 4 UWT-100s, A UWT-50e and 2 legacy NCE hammerheads and a WFD-30 for Withrottle support though we plan to replace that with the new MRC device in the coming months.
The CS-105 is THE BEST DCC system in 2024 in the club's experience. Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
A few reasons to consider it.
Also as noted the TCS UWT throttles are really really slick. Even before we switched to the CS-105 we were using the UWTs on our Legacy MRC system as well as the NCE. Everyone in the club prefers them.
Also, it's kinda funny that you mistakenly had MRC in the title, and based on all the digitrax and NCE recommendations in the thread, it might be that not everyone is aware, but MRC is launching a brand new system soonish. It is going to us LCC just as the TCS products do. And it's going to include some integration points for legacy prodigy users.
The first products out will be an LCC throttle and a new adapter board that will convert from LCC and Withrottle to the MRC bus. Either direction. SO we're looking at that to replace our WFD-30 which has more limitations than we'd like. And since it's all LCC it is 100% compatible with the CS-105.
Don't need the MRC support, but we do have some legacy MRC throttles so it will be interesting.
There are other systems out there that are more newer with more features than NCE and Digitrax. They are European. the ESU ECOS system in particular is very popular. I'm not personally a fan, but I'd really recommend looking at other options than Digitrax and NCE. There are many more options now with US support.
When I was a club member many of the members did not have a lot of extra money for the newest and best, don't know how much this has changed but needs to be considered.
In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system.
Rich
Alton Junction
YoHo1975 ... Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
... Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
Really?
Speaking only about my NCE system, they have upgraded my Pro Cabs to the latest version software, which is good when you want to recall more than 2 engines.
I really like the ease of consisting and use.
Have the Powerhouse Pro Radio system with 2 additional boosters. Works well no complaints..
Neal
nealknows Speaking only about my NCE system, they have upgraded my Pro Cabs to the latest version software, which is good when you want to recall more than 2 engines. I really like the ease of consisting and use. Have the Powerhouse Pro Radio system with 2 additional boosters. Works well no complaints.. Neal
I mean in the past 13 years that I've been with my current club, I've never used a system that didn't support more than 2 loco recall.
I would not consider that a big feature. Or rather, why did it take so long?
Obviously if you have a system you like and are happy with. Then that's great.
But the OP asked about a comparison if they should chose to upgrade. And I think that should include more options.
For example. I think the TCS system would be far more compelling as an upgrade for the OP than the NCE.
Dunno, I have had an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system for 20 years now, and I cannot identify a single weakness.
What have you compared it to?
richhotrain In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system. Rich
My hope is that the board votes to stay with Digitrax, but upgrade it with bigger (and a few additional) boosters. But I am only one vote out of twelve.
I want to express my extreme appreciation to all of you who responded - some of you went above and beyond with your detailed and comprehensive replies. And although I didn't respond to each one, rest assured I read each one and I'm sharing them with the other board members, especially our electronics guys.
richhotrain Neal, I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say Power Cab concerning the upgrade to recall more than two locomotives? Rich
Neal, I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say Power Cab concerning the upgrade to recall more than two locomotives?
Rich,
I use my Pro Cabs during operating sessions and with the latest Pro Cab upgradesI can recall more than 2 engines. One of the guys who runs trains during the op sessions does it. My latest Pro Cab is version 1.71
nealknows richhotrain Neal, I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say Power Cab concerning the upgrade to recall more than two locomotives? Rich Rich, I use my Pro Cabs during operating sessions and with the latest Pro Cab upgradesI can recall more than 2 engines. One of the guys who runs trains during the op sessions does it. My latest Pro Cab is version 1.71 Neal
The original ProCab does allow the user to recall as many as 6 locomotives. What am I missing?
Hello All,
richhotrainThe original ProCab does allow the user to recall as many as 6 locomotives. What am I missing?
With my NCE Power Pro system; Radio V1.5B, the factory set default number of recalls is two (2).
In the Power Pro System Reference Manual; pg. 65, SET UP THE CAB PARAMETERS (Shortcut = PROG 6) it states:
NUMBER OF RECALLSThis adjusts the number of recall "slots" that are cycled through when the RECALL key is pressed. Enter a number of Recalls from 1 - 6 and press ENTER. This can be set differently for each cab. (factory default is 2) Press Enter to skip this parameter.
During the initial setup of my system upon reading this, I set my cab to recall the maximum number of locomotives of 6.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
jjdamnit Hello All, richhotrain The original ProCab does allow the user to recall as many as 6 locomotives. What am I missing? With my NCE Power Pro system; Radio V1.5B, the factory set default number of recalls is two (2). In the Power Pro System Reference Manual; pg. 65, SET UP THE CAB PARAMETERS (Shortcut = PROG 6) it states: NUMBER OF RECALLSThis adjusts the number of recall "slots" that are cycled through when the RECALL key is pressed. Enter a number of Recalls from 1 - 6 and press ENTER. This can be set differently for each cab. (factory default is 2) Press Enter to skip this parameter. During the initial setup of my system upon reading this, I set my cab to recall the maximum number of locomotives of 6. Hope this helps.
richhotrain The original ProCab does allow the user to recall as many as 6 locomotives. What am I missing?
On the other hand, the Power Cab only has a recall of 2.
So, I am confused about Neal's statement that a Pro Cab upgrade now permits a recall capacity of 6 since the Pro Cab has always provided for a recall of 6.
richhotrainOn the other hand, the Power Cab only has a recall of 2.
With the latest upgrade firmware of V1.65, the Power Cab can now be programmed with a recall stack of 2 to 6 locomotives.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage richhotrain On the other hand, the Power Cab only has a recall of 2. Rich, With the latest upgrade firmware of V1.65, the Power Cab can now be programmed with a recall stack of 2 to 6 locomotives. Tom
richhotrain On the other hand, the Power Cab only has a recall of 2.
richhotrain Dunno, I have had an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system for 20 years now, and I cannot identify a single weakness. Rich
YoHo1975 What have you compared it to?
richhotrainTom, thanks for that info. So, then, Neal must be referring to a Power Cab upgrade, not a Power Cab upgrade.
So, is he or isn't he??
riogrande5761I'll toss a cat among the pigeons...
In my perception- -your suggestion was intended to obfuscate rather than educate.
reasearchhound...I am only one vote out of twelve.
To me, this seems to be a small group of enthusiasts that just want to run trains free of issues after investing in a robust DCC system- -especially when putting their best foot forward during their annual open house running- -no matter the current technology.
richhotrainI have no need to compare the NCE PH-Pro to any other system since it has operated flawlessly for over 20 years, and I cannot identify a single weakness. When I read about other DCC systems and their features, I see nothing that I want or need that is not already provided by my NCE system.
I've had my NCE PH-Pro 5 Amp wireless system since switching in 2012- -from the dead-end Bachmann Dynamis- -with no complaints.
There are many "modern" features that have been added to DCC systems- -LocoNet, RailCom, LCC, JMRI PowerPro/PanelPro, along other "feedback/identification" DCC control systems.
If I wanted any of these "improvements" I would have switched the the Märklin control system with Drei Gleiss.
Like richotrain I don't see a need to upgrade when what I have works for my requirements.
The OP asked the great folks on these forums two (2) separate questions...
jjdamnitIt seems that there are two (2) components to this thread: 1) The shutting down of the layout due to an undiagnosed cause or causes. 2) The dissatisfaction of the members with the Digitrax system.
Remember, the club membership is seeking answers to their existing Digitrax systems failures, and balancing the cost vs. benefit of switching to another DCC system.
Yes, I agree there are DCC systems that integrate the newer features that have graciously highlighted.
If you just want your system to work...no matter the manufacturer...
Solve the problems you are faced with now and then consider future options based on cost.
maxman richhotrain Tom, thanks for that info. So, then, Neal must be referring to a Power Cab upgrade, not a Power Cab upgrade. So, is he or isn't he??
richhotrain Tom, thanks for that info. So, then, Neal must be referring to a Power Cab upgrade, not a Power Cab upgrade.
Saying that you have xyz system and it's good enough for what you do is both true, and not particularly relevant to someone looking to upgrade or buy a new system today.
The OP and his club need to get the Digitrax system and their layout wiring working properly first. Then, think about upgrades if they are still desired. Switching the command station and throttles to something else isn't going to fix electrical or booster problems.
If after fixing the problem an upgrade is desired, the CS-105 is the logical choice, since all of the Digitrax hardware except the command station itself can come along for the ride, greatly reducing the up-front cost, and then people can switch throttles as they see fit (or not).
snjroyReally?
ALEXANDER WOODSaying that you have xyz system and it's good enough for what you do is both true, and not particularly relevant to someone looking to upgrade or buy a new system today.
The OP asked for opinions...
reasearchhoundWould like to hear some of you guys on your opinions on the two systems and whether one is really that much better than the other, and why.
We gave our honest opinions of the systems we own and use along with recommendations about the two systems in question.
Others chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies.
If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade.
There are many members of these forums that still use DC control. (I'm sure those members are laughing at this post because of the divisiveness of the various DCC system devotees.)
When returning to this great hobby in 2013 I began with DC on my 4'x8' pike.
I quickly realized the limitations of DC and with my particular needs DCC would better suit my individual situation.
My first DCC system was the dead-end Bachmann Dynamis system, which I quickly outgrew.
I'm a "lone wolf" modeler so I chose the system based on my needs not interoperability with a club and the "newest and best" technologies- -simply what worked for me.
As an example...
In the physical environment I work in smartphones fail and can be irreparably damaged.
I have been ridiculed for my flip phone with MIL-STD-810H spec, but when I need to make a call or send and receive texts or photos at work it gets the job done.
Sometimes "older" IS "better".
When I need to utilize smartphone technologies I have a tablet- -including acting as a throttle for my NCE DCC system with a WiFi interface utilizing JMRI DecoderPro.
We all agree that the root cause of the OPs clubs problems need to be addressed first.
After that, it's up to the members to decide if "newer" is in fact "better" or will the "older" meet their needs.
In my second post, I posed two (2) questions to present to the club memebers...
jjdamnit•Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet? •If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle?
If the members are not comfortable with using their smartphones and/or tablets and prefer using the manufacturer's throttles that they don't have on their own systems that's an additional expense the club has to incur.
We can pontificate over the merits of our own personal choices but in the end it's up to the club members to balance cost vs. technological needs.
jjdamnit Hello All, ALEXANDER WOOD Saying that you have xyz system and it's good enough for what you do is both true, and not particularly relevant to someone looking to upgrade or buy a new system today. The OP asked for opinions... reasearchhound Would like to hear some of you guys on your opinions on the two systems and whether one is really that much better than the other, and why. We gave our honest opinions of the systems we own and use along with recommendations about the two systems in question. Others chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies. If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade. There are many members of these forums that still use DC control. (I'm sure those members are laughing at this post because of the divisiveness of the various DCC system devotees.) When returning to this great hobby in 2013 I began with DC on my 4'x8' pike. I quickly realized the limitations of DC and with my particular needs DCC would better suit my individual situation. My first DCC system was the dead-end Bachmann Dynamis system, which I quickly outgrew. I'm a "lone wolf" modeler so I chose the system based on my needs not interoperability with a club and the "newest and best" technologies- -simply what worked for me. As an example... In the physical environment I work in smartphones fail and can be irreparably damaged. I have been ridiculed for my flip phone with MIL-STD-810H spec, but when I need to make a call or send and receive texts or photos at work it gets the job done. Sometimes "older" IS "better". When I need to utilize smartphone technologies I have a tablet- -including acting as a throttle for my NCE DCC system with a WiFi interface utilizing JMRI DecoderPro. We all agree that the root cause of the OPs clubs problems need to be addressed first. After that, it's up to the members to decide if "newer" is in fact "better" or will the "older" meet their needs. In my second post, I posed two (2) questions to present to the club memebers... jjdamnit •Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet? •If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle? If the members are not comfortable with using their smartphones and/or tablets and prefer using the manufacturer's throttles that they don't have on their own systems that's an additional expense the club has to incur. We can pontificate over the merits of our own personal choices but in the end it's up to the club members to balance cost vs. technological needs. Hope this helps.
ALEXANDER WOOD Saying that you have xyz system and it's good enough for what you do is both true, and not particularly relevant to someone looking to upgrade or buy a new system today.
reasearchhound Would like to hear some of you guys on your opinions on the two systems and whether one is really that much better than the other, and why.
jjdamnit •Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet? •If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle?
Most of the members have switched to using their smart phones as throttles. But a few of the old timers still prefer to use a throttle, and some of the younger members (12-14 years old) have parents who don't allow them to have smart phones yet.
So here is the thing. If you are happy with your current system, great. But this topic is about if someone was looking to buy a system or to upgrade one. I've seen several posts where people say they are happy with their current system. We get that. Repeat it umpteen times. But if someone were to go layout money on a new system, they might be happier with a different system.
TCS is a very recently developed system. That means they have learned things from past systems and have improved upon them. Consististing is was rated as superior to NCE so that was one factor important to me.
riogrande5761 So here is the thing. If you are happy with your current system, great. But this topic is about if someone was looking to buy a system or to upgrade one. I've seen several posts where people say they are happy with their current system. We get that. Repeat it umpteen times. But if someone were to go layout money on a new system, they might be happier with a different system. TCS is a very recently developed system. That means they have learned things from past systems and have improved upon them. Consististing is was rated as superior to NCE so that was one factor important to me.
First, if a number of people reply that they own a particular DCC system and are perfectly satisfied with it, that is telling, so it is meaningful.
Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example.
riogrande5761Consististing is was rated as superior to NCE so that was one factor important to me.
Well, trying to stay out of this discussion.
But I am curious who rated it superior.
The UWT uses something called "in cab consisting", which appears similar to NCE but doesn't involve the command station. I am not certain, but I am guessing that CV 19 in the decoder could be used to communicate between the controller and the loco. Again I am guesing about that.
But I question what happens when the owner of the cab goes home.
And what happens when someone else wants to operate a particular consist with his own controller?
My current opinion is that yes, it is a new way of consisting, but it possibly just opens up another can of worms.
It's hard to imagine a system superior to NCE's Advanced Consisting which can be easily done POM in just a few quick keystrokes.
One thing to note that has not been mentioned is obsolescence. If you have tried to buy an NCE system recently they have been rather difficult to find especially the larger systems. Because they have not changed their system in 25 years they are struggling to find parts to manufacture their system. This also could delay manufactuter repairs. I believe this is partially why Digitrax has come out with newer models of boosters, command stations, throttles, etc. so as to not face part obsolescense. Electronic parts go obsolete at absurd rates these days, 1 to 2 years at most.
I personnally use Digitrax because of Loconet, however, I have a 50/50 mix of digitrax and RRcirkits products connected to Loconet. I think it wouldn't be much of a stretch to switch to an LCC based system such as the TCS CS-105. I have a pretty involved layout which includes block detection and signalling and a full dispatchers panel all running on loconet. Much of what I have can't be done with a polled network like NCE uses.
There are many things I like about digitrax and many things I despise. I'm not too happy with new throttles and their bugs and their loss of communication on the regular (especially at the club). I do love loconet and the endless prosibilities it provides. LCC is more powerful but I'm probably not going to switch unless I have to rebuild my layout.
Back to my original point. NCE needs a major design update to overcome obsolescence, If you can't get chips you cant build the system or fix it.
Digitrax has noticed this but I don't think their QC is the same as it once was.
TCS has the newest system on the block and its what I would go with if I were to switch systems. It's on the pricey side but its likely to be around a while and they have great support and it works well, especially the wireless.
Speaking of wireless, wifi is a great choice as it is a proven technology and they leverage industry advances instead of a propreitary system like NCE and Digitrax.
I have operated numerous layouts on NCE, Digitrax, MRC, EasyDCC, Lenz and TCS. As far as throttles go TCS and Protothrottles are my favorite. I don't have a protothrottle since is likes $600 to connect it to Digitrax system. As stated by other NCE just works and its stable.
I love NCE's consisting way more than Digitrax. I can't stand Digitrax universal consisting. It's garbage. I ended up using advanced consisting.
I hope this provides good view of both systems. It largely depends on the needs of the end users. I need Digitrax (and later maybe TCS) because of loconet/LCC. Other's needs may vary. I suggest created a list of needs and wants for your particular application and see which system meets the most of the needs/wants.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/