jjdamnit Hello All, NVSRR NCE is a larger club and layout system not suited for what you have. Not surprised by your results. What you could have used is something like digitrax zephyr or bachmann easy command. Simple dcc systems more for beginners and small layouts like yours. I don't understand the presumption that NCE is unsuitable for smaller pikes. My HO pike is a 4'x8' with no way to expand due to the dictates of "She Who Must Be Obyed." I began with DC block wiring. From my personal experience- -it was a nightmare trying to run two trains with block control and two (2) cabs. As has been said... "It was like trying to play the piano with boxing gloves."
Hello All,
NVSRR NCE is a larger club and layout system not suited for what you have. Not surprised by your results. What you could have used is something like digitrax zephyr or bachmann easy command. Simple dcc systems more for beginners and small layouts like yours.
I don't understand the presumption that NCE is unsuitable for smaller pikes.
My HO pike is a 4'x8' with no way to expand due to the dictates of "She Who Must Be Obyed."
I began with DC block wiring.
From my personal experience- -it was a nightmare trying to run two trains with block control and two (2) cabs.
As has been said...
"It was like trying to play the piano with boxing gloves."
Amen to that. I read every Atlas layout book before deciding on one, so that I could run two trains at a time. Only thing, Atlas never mentions that you have to park one of those trains in the passing sidings while you run the other train. Trying anything else results in disaster.
It's the reason I'm building a double-track main, even though I'm now using DCC - no more rude surprises after all the work.
AEP528 Why does this nonsense continue? If there are people, and seemingly a lot of people, who like the idea of using phones for throttles and graphical UIs, why do any of you naysayers care? Seriously, why? The repeated postings and constant negativiy make it appear that you feel somehow threatened by them. Is your self-confidence really that low?
Why does this nonsense continue? If there are people, and seemingly a lot of people, who like the idea of using phones for throttles and graphical UIs, why do any of you naysayers care?
Seriously, why?
The repeated postings and constant negativiy make it appear that you feel somehow threatened by them. Is your self-confidence really that low?
And why do you care what the so-called "naysayers" say? Do you feel somehow threatened by them? Is your self-confidence really that low?
I thought the conversation - for the most part - has been fairly civil. It seems to me that it's been the main proponents and those who have a preference for graphic interfaces who have been the ones most aggressive about the topic so far.
It's okay to express an opposing position. That's why it's called a forum. Leave the pot stirring for the kitchen...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
AEP528 Why does this nonsense continue? If there are people, and seemingly a lot of people, who like the idea of using phones for throttles and graphical UIs, why do any of you naysayers care? Seriously, why? The repeated postings and constant negativiy make it appear that you feel somehow threatened by them. Is your self-confidence really that low? Oh, and by the way, railroad engineers don't watch their trains. They don't railfan. They're paying attention to the controls and the tracks ahead.
Oh, and by the way, railroad engineers don't watch their trains. They don't railfan. They're paying attention to the controls and the tracks ahead.
Alton Junction
The real problem is that people expect their phones to do it all, dosn't always work well. What I didn't like about the easy app is the sound came from my phone and not the train, also missed the dial too but the sound was the deal breaker.
Just Wanna Play I find it intriguing you call yourself 'Betamax'. After a videotape standard that, though technically superior, got shunted onto the siding of video history? Seems appropriate here. No offense, please. Probably one substandard design feature of the NCE DCC system I experimented with is that two-lines of text on the remote control. That and the number of function buttons. I suppose once you've had maybe thirty or forty hours of practice you can internalize all the commands and their hierarchies. But with a touchscreen interface there is simply more bandwidth. Less time climbing the learning curve and -- importantly -- less sliding back down the forgetting curve. I can compare it to riding a motorcycle. If you are going to ride, you HAVE to ride. You must ride regularly to maintain your skills. There is a whole lot less danger involved if your model train operating skills get rusty, but the principle is the same. After a while sliding down the forgetting curve you need time and practice to get up to speed again. Having a graphical user interface gives you so much more bandwidth. You aren't faced with that MS_DOS..; C:/ ...prompt staring at you out of an otherwise blank screen. Forgive my strained analogy. It is late. Back to bed.
I find it intriguing you call yourself 'Betamax'. After a videotape standard that, though technically superior, got shunted onto the siding of video history? Seems appropriate here. No offense, please.
Probably one substandard design feature of the NCE DCC system I experimented with is that two-lines of text on the remote control. That and the number of function buttons.
I suppose once you've had maybe thirty or forty hours of practice you can internalize all the commands and their hierarchies. But with a touchscreen interface there is simply more bandwidth. Less time climbing the learning curve and -- importantly -- less sliding back down the forgetting curve.
I can compare it to riding a motorcycle. If you are going to ride, you HAVE to ride. You must ride regularly to maintain your skills.
There is a whole lot less danger involved if your model train operating skills get rusty, but the principle is the same. After a while sliding down the forgetting curve you need time and practice to get up to speed again.
Having a graphical user interface gives you so much more bandwidth. You aren't faced with that MS_DOS..;
C:/
...prompt staring at you out of an otherwise blank screen.
Forgive my strained analogy. It is late. Back to bed.
The problem with touch screens is that you have to look at them.
I want to be looking at the trains.
I control my trains with these - excuse the picture quality.
The trains are controlled by five buttons that can be identified by feel:
FASTER - SLOWER - EAST - WEST - EMERGENCY STOP
Much easier.
Sheldon
Just Wanna Play I see DCC systems as reminiscent of IBM Personal Computers pre-Windows. Does anyone remember MS-DOS? PC folks were fully wrapped up in it, wishing for nothing better until Apple came along and introduced a graphical user interface. Even then it took most of a decade before IBM/Microsoft caved and introduced their own graphical interface, Windows. Pardon my deja vu. DCC is 1990's technology. Here, 30 years on, it is time for an update.
I see DCC systems as reminiscent of IBM Personal Computers pre-Windows. Does anyone remember MS-DOS? PC folks were fully wrapped up in it, wishing for nothing better until Apple came along and introduced a graphical user interface. Even then it took most of a decade before IBM/Microsoft caved and introduced their own graphical interface, Windows.
Pardon my deja vu. DCC is 1990's technology. Here, 30 years on, it is time for an update.
DCC is a communications standard. A graphical interface has nothing to do with the DCC standard. It in no way defines what the user interface should look like.
If a DCC manufacturer decides to spend the money on software and hardware to create a GUI and display for their system, it is up to them to do so. A number of the European brands already do.
There is also software available to configure decoders which runs on your computer with a GUI. All it has to do is connect via the throttle network to your DCC system. Unfortunately, it must also speak the language of the throttle network, as the DCC Standard does not define the throttle network.
DCC only defines what is on the railhead. What era your throttle belongs in is a decision made by its maker.
A graphics interface is a necessity for today's computers and the internet. A necessity for operating your trains & layout? Nope - not even close; nor a fair comparison.
While some folks may like using sliders and screens, I like to keep it simple with my DCC throttle and tactile buttons. I can generally operate one-handed speed, direction, horn, bell, headlight, and emergency stop - all w/o needing to look at my simple two-line LCD screen. I couldn't do that with a phone-based interface; nor would I want to.
As explained before, the future market for a "new" control system is almost zero.
The advent of DCC with sound and high quality RTR models has brought a new type of modeler to the hobby who is often not very inclined to install decoders, build rolling stock kits, etc.
This group likes plug and play and it has been delivered. And as a group they don't seem to be having much trouble navigating the world of DCC.
And again, by all accounts 35-45% of modelers are still using DC - some with advanced systems while others feel no need for DCC because they have adapted a small, simple view of the hobby. For example self type switching layouts with only one loco moving at a time.
"simple" to use is different for everyone. My Advanced DC Progressive Cab Control is simple to use, but requires lot of detailed planning and construction for each layout - not simple for many people.
Best of luck.
I don't think you can say they "failed" at something that they didn't try to do. As far as I can tell, Bachmann has never tried to sell the E-Z Ap as a system. I don't recall ever seeing an ad for them trying to get people to buy E-Z Ap decoders to install in their non-Bachmann engines for example. They offer some engines with the E-Z Ap, engines mostly aimed at beginners as a way to encourage them to buy Bachmann products.
I've become discouraged about the future of Bachmann's EZ-App. Not that there is anything wrong with the iPhone app, but there doesn't seem to be any follow-on to Bachmann's hardware.
Bachmann offers three boards as 'spare parts' on their website. But I'm not seeing any indication that E-Z App is gaining a market. It seems to be a marketing failure and Bachmann isn't inclined to pursue it further.
Given that, I am getting serious about the alternative system being developed and promoted by Hornby -- their HM7000 system. Hornby seems to be promoting HM7000 much more actively. I have just pre-ordered 6 of their R7321 decoder boards, which are anticipated to be available "summer 2024".
The R7321 boards have a 6-pin disconnect. Not designed for a soundboard, which suits me just fine. List price is 31.99 Pounds Sterling, which is currently equivalent to US$38.86. That is the least expensive Bluetooth hardware I've found to date.
Yeah, I'm going to have to wait on this. But my layout has been out of action for a whole bunch of years now, so I guess I can wait a little longer.
Sad about the Bachmann system though. They got so many things right in their designs. Maybe it will gain traction eventually. But I'm now betting Hornby will get there first.
I purchased and installed the FT/F7 board. Put it in a Hornby Network Southwest locomotive. Once I figured out the contacts on the circuit board installation was straightforward. Two contacts for track power, two contacts for the motor. Successful on the first try.
Biggest issue was just finding space for the board. It is long. I had to cut away some interior detail to make space.
My experiments with E-Z App to date have been encouraging. Very little in the way of puzzling and frustrating techno-obstiance. Simple operation controlled by simple and intuitive commands. No programming!
Now if only Bachmann could offer some smaller circuit boards.
Just Wanna PlayThat diesel I ordered off eBay turned out to be a fraud. No circuit board, either E-Z App or DCC. Just a plain ol' analog engine with a missing coupler and two broken drive trains. I'm returning it, with prejudice.
ARRRGGG!!!
With this emerging technology I doubt that there are many reputable items available on the used market- -as you have unfortunately experienced firsthand.
I just checked out the Bachmann website...
Parts, Service & Information > Order Parts > E-Z App Boards
Bachmann lists three E-Z App boards for purchase:
My presumption is the difference in the E-Z App decoders is the sound files, other than the obvious one installed in the steam tender.
Having no experience with this technology I can't presume how to wire these boards.
Despite your experience with the Bachmann Forums, I have had great luck with their customer service and repair department.
I'm sure they could walk you through an installation into a "DCC Ready" (motor isolated) locomotive.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
PM RailfanLOL a tour thru a dead rail loco facility.... ya got your sand, water, coal, ash pit, and USB C charging port.
Just Wanna Play .... My concern remains how to charge lithium batteries without setting fire to them.
.... My concern remains how to charge lithium batteries without setting fire to them.
LOL a tour thru a dead rail loco facility....
ya got your sand, water, coal, ash pit, and USB C charging port.
PMR
PS: and solar panels on the roof of coaling tower and roundhouse.
Just Wanna PlayMy concern remains how to charge lithium batteries without setting fire to them.
That diesel I ordered off eBay turned out to be a fraud. No circuit board, either E-Z App or DCC. Just a plain ol' analog engine with a missing coupler and two broken drive trains. I'm returning it, with prejudice.
Credit the cell phone market for supercharging battery development. My concern remains how to charge lithium batteries without setting fire to them.
Just Wanna Play Wjstik, I opened the NMRA link you provided. I found no headings for E-Z App. I entered "e-z app" in the search field. I got no hits. None. The NMRA site appears completely dedicated to DCC. I'll try going on the Bachmann site again. I've been on Bluerail a number of times. I've not gotten the impression that they are a going concern. I have ordered a diesel loco with E-Z App off of eBay. I intend to strip the board out of it and install it on one of my Hornby locomotives. We'll see how that works. It looks like Bluetooth systems are still gestating.
Wjstik,
I opened the NMRA link you provided. I found no headings for E-Z App. I entered "e-z app" in the search field. I got no hits. None.
The NMRA site appears completely dedicated to DCC.
I'll try going on the Bachmann site again.
I've been on Bluerail a number of times. I've not gotten the impression that they are a going concern.
I have ordered a diesel loco with E-Z App off of eBay. I intend to strip the board out of it and install it on one of my Hornby locomotives. We'll see how that works.
It looks like Bluetooth systems are still gestating.
Just Wanna PlayModel Railroader' is a publication I've been aware of for decades. I'd expect its website to have authoritative postings on just about any model railroading subject.
I don't know why. I wouldn't expect Sports Illustrated's website to have authoritative information on the history of baseball. For that you'd go to baseballreference.com, the Hall of Fame's site, or SABR. MR has a good deal of information, but it can't be expected to have it all.
As has been suggested, the NMRA would be a very good place to start.
https://www.nmra.org/dcc-working-group
Just Wanna PlayOf course I have been on the Bachmann E-Z App website. Two problems: 1) I can't post on the site. I've tried to get support -- no luck. 2) There's almost no activity there. Due to few members or inability to post? Dunno.
I understand your frustration.
For quite a while the Bachmann Forums were down- -dead in the water!
When was the last time you reached out to them?
I just logged on to my account and things seem to be back to normal.
There is an entire forum dedicated to E-Z App.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMyself, I have always thought direct radio with only propulsion power on the track would be better than DCC.
And with the "propulsion power" on the track charging small batteries so all turnouts and crossings could be dead... now we are talking!
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Just Wanna Play jjdamnit, Of course I have been on the Bachmann E-Z App website. Two problems: 1) I can't post on the site. I've tried to get support -- no luck. 2) There's almost no activity there. Due to few members or inability to post? Dunno. 'Model Railroader' is a publication I've been aware of for decades. I'd expect its website to have authoritative postings on just about any model railroading subject. That is why I've come here to ask about E-Z App, Bluerail and dead rail. I'm willing to invest some time (and keyboarding) trying to connect with folks having similar experiences and interests. To date, no luck. Am I alone on this planet?
jjdamnit,
Of course I have been on the Bachmann E-Z App website. Two problems:
1) I can't post on the site. I've tried to get support -- no luck.
2) There's almost no activity there. Due to few members or inability to post? Dunno.
'Model Railroader' is a publication I've been aware of for decades. I'd expect its website to have authoritative postings on just about any model railroading subject. That is why I've come here to ask about E-Z App, Bluerail and dead rail. I'm willing to invest some time (and keyboarding) trying to connect with folks having similar experiences and interests.
To date, no luck. Am I alone on this planet?
Younger modelers, who are more likely to invest time and money into these alteritive systems are not to be found in great numbers on traditional forums like this one. Most are on Facebook in model train groups, some with very specific subjects, some mire general.
As someone who has been active on this forum for a good while, I can tell you there has been very little discussion, and even fewer actual users on this topic over the years.
Myself, I have always thought direct radio with only propulsion power on the track would be better than DCC. Such systems are among the range of products you are asking about, but again, few users on this forum.
NMRA. That has the groups and such where you could find others using these different systems
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Ed:
Have you looked at the Soundtraxx Bluenami offerings. They are a sort of hybrid of DCC sound with Bluetooth control by smart phone or tablet.
Joe
OldEngineman Re Sheldon's remarks above (about running more than one train at once)... I have a 4x8 layout that is based upon the "Black River Junction" project that MR did a few years' back. It has the BRJ "L-shaped" extension which I expanded from the original plan to have a small yard. To control it I use a Digikeijs DR5000 (as hardware) with the (free) Roco z21 app running on a Samsung Galaxy tablet (9.5" screen). I have the tablet locked in horizontal orientation displaying 2 loco control screens side-by-side. I normally try to keep two engines moving, sometimes can get three running simultaneously, and even FOUR engines for short periods of time (it's only a 4x8...). We're not talking extended time here. There's a "road freight" that may simply be "doing loops" while another engine switches an industry. And add to that the third engine "returning light" to the yard. But again, sometimes three at once (even with only 2 control screens, the z21 makes "flipping" between engines easy). I think that because the layout IS small, it's easier to keep an eye on things. And once in a while I DO have to hit the "emergency" button...! I try run the railroad three times daily. Usually come on here in the evening, just after "the last run of the day"...
Re Sheldon's remarks above (about running more than one train at once)...
I have a 4x8 layout that is based upon the "Black River Junction" project that MR did a few years' back. It has the BRJ "L-shaped" extension which I expanded from the original plan to have a small yard.
To control it I use a Digikeijs DR5000 (as hardware) with the (free) Roco z21 app running on a Samsung Galaxy tablet (9.5" screen). I have the tablet locked in horizontal orientation displaying 2 loco control screens side-by-side.
I normally try to keep two engines moving, sometimes can get three running simultaneously, and even FOUR engines for short periods of time (it's only a 4x8...).
We're not talking extended time here. There's a "road freight" that may simply be "doing loops" while another engine switches an industry. And add to that the third engine "returning light" to the yard. But again, sometimes three at once (even with only 2 control screens, the z21 makes "flipping" between engines easy).
I think that because the layout IS small, it's easier to keep an eye on things.
And once in a while I DO have to hit the "emergency" button...!
I try run the railroad three times daily. Usually come on here in the evening, just after "the last run of the day"...
Well, if you can do that, and you find it fun, good for you. That would not be fun for me.
And the touch screen control is a non-starter for me.
I like display running as well as "prototype operations", so all my more recent layouts have been carefully designed to support both.
In fact the new layout is specifically designed to support the display loop running of 5 trains while still allowing the yard and 80% of the industries to be "operated" without ever crossing those display loops.
But I don't consider letting trains run on display loops as operating them, otherwise I could say I am operating 6 trains at once.
My trains are DC, controlled by Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless radio throttles and a progressive pushbutton advanced cab control system that allows for walk around control and supports operations with or without a CTC dispatcher.
With a dispatcher on duty, mainline operators simply obey the signals, they never have to touch a cab assignment button or a turnout control button.
Is it complex to build? - yes. Is it easy to operate? - yes.
Without the dispatcher on duty operators can simply walk around with their trains and push a few push buttons (no "toggle switches") at each interlocking control panel - and again, obey the signals.
So to each their own.
My interests are long trains, display running, mainline and switching prototype operations and detailed scenery beyond the "right of way" to give the trains more context.
The layout will stage about 30 trains, most in the 35-50 car range.
I purposely made the layout large but relatively simple to balance these goals.