In my opinion, "Bluetooth" is not the protocol to use in designing anything that is going to be a wireless bridge for the DCC control modulation. Use something with better range, etc.; modern WiFi being one obvious preference.
Anything involving a proprietary control modulation is going to be DOA in any practical sense as far as manufacturers are concerned. Design for DCC, and the ability to switch between Lenz and wireless modulation seamlessly on an ad-hoc basis (ideally via circuitry on the equipment itself).
When this is done, the difference between 'dead rail' and current DCC collapses to be the size and capacity of the keep-alive used, and the manner in which that keep-alive is kept suitably charged. As even unmodulated DCC "14V" on metal rails, or periodic contact points, is ridiculously suitable for use in battery charging with costed-down cores, that is a non-issue for 'dead rail' that can use metal rails or contact architecture; even if the track is entirely nonconducting, it should be easy to have the locomotives 'navigate' to established recharging points when their keep-alive starts becoming moribund -- just as a wide range of devices from Roombas to Joules are arranged to do.
If you're concerned with conversion of existing DCC stock -- just have the equivalent of an MU bus in the locomotives, with or without plug connectors, so that a large-form-factor keep-alive cell or supercap arrangement in a trailing car can be connected to supply all the decoders. These will operate just fine from existing track pickups when Lenz-modulated track power is available...
I understand the need of some for battery powered but those are in the minority like those that run outside or have hyper detailed sidings and rairly used right of ways so the scheen of polished rail is unwanted.
Yep, a throttle is the way to go.
Rich
Alton Junction
Just Wanna PlaySadly, I don't see dead-rail as a ready-for-prime-time solution for HO. Not yet. Apparently it is for larger scales, and it is enjoying success there. Better batteries are needed for HO. But then better batteries are needed for pretty much every electronic device. Battery R&D is going gangbusters now, and certainly will do so in the future. I expect we just need to be patient.
While I understand the advantages of dead rail, I'm just not all that keen about having to outfit each of my locomotives (or an attached piece/pieces of rolling stock) with a battery. It's just one more thing to squeeze into an already tight space.
You would need to keep up on battery technology and what battery is going to work with your locomotive and for how long. And batteries eventually go bad so you would need to unintall it and find a suitable replacement - if one is available.
Not that appealing to me. I'm also not into using my phone for a primary throttle; requiring me to look at the screen EVERY time I want to change something - e.g. speed. My present throttle allows me to do that one-handed and no need to even bring up to view the screen.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Just Wanna Play I don't care whether you take Lionel's HO offerings seriously or not. If the LionChief Bluetooth decoder is small enough and available as a separate part for a reasonable price that is all I need. I understand it may be perfect for your needs, just like my 30 year old Aristo Craft radio throttles are perfect for mine. But don't expect a bluetooth throttle from Lionel to revolutionize the hobby. Sheldon
Just Wanna Play I don't care whether you take Lionel's HO offerings seriously or not. If the LionChief Bluetooth decoder is small enough and available as a separate part for a reasonable price that is all I need.
I don't care whether you take Lionel's HO offerings seriously or not. If the LionChief Bluetooth decoder is small enough and available as a separate part for a reasonable price that is all I need.
I understand it may be perfect for your needs, just like my 30 year old Aristo Craft radio throttles are perfect for mine.
But don't expect a bluetooth throttle from Lionel to revolutionize the hobby.
Sheldon
Indeed, it's complete trash -- I have their Polar Express set for under the Christmas Tree. The app was cutesy enough, but control changed lag pretty bad, and it likes to crash pretty often. Only reason I even bothered looking at it was becasue it touted being able to set max speed (which it could ... but only if I then let the kiddos play with the trainset from my phone...)
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Just Wanna Play I see the biggest, perennial issue with model railroading is poor wheel-to-rail contact. Conventional analog suffers due to inconsistent power. DCC suffers more due to both inconsistent power and spotty control signaling. Cleaning the rails is labor-intensive on most layouts and near impossible on some. Cleaning locomotive wheels is less of a chore, but still a chore. Only keep-alive circuitry does anything to directly address the issues.
I see the biggest, perennial issue with model railroading is poor wheel-to-rail contact. Conventional analog suffers due to inconsistent power. DCC suffers more due to both inconsistent power and spotty control signaling.
Cleaning the rails is labor-intensive on most layouts and near impossible on some. Cleaning locomotive wheels is less of a chore, but still a chore. Only keep-alive circuitry does anything to directly address the issues.
Clearly we have a totally different experience here.
I still run DC, with with full voltage pulse width modulated speed control throttles.
But even before I had those track cleaning issues were minimal, not on my own layout but on several other medium to large DC layouts I operated on regularly.
Just Wanna Play I see the biggest, perennial issue with model railroading is poor wheel-to-rail contact.
I see the biggest, perennial issue with model railroading is poor wheel-to-rail contact.
Just Wanna PlayCleaning the rails is labor-intensive on most layouts and near impossible on some. Cleaning locomotive wheels is less of a chore, but still a chore.
Just Wanna PlaySadly, I don't see dead-rail as a ready-for-prime-time solution for HO.
Bluetooth control is a complete fix for the signalling issues. Add dead-rail and the whole rail-to-wheel contact issue goes away. Abandoning and replacing that century-old technology provides unprecedented reliability.
Sadly, I don't see dead-rail as a ready-for-prime-time solution for HO. Not yet. Apparently it is for larger scales, and it is enjoying success there. Better batteries are needed for HO. But then better batteries are needed for pretty much every electronic device. Battery R&D is going gangbusters now, and certainly will do so in the future. I expect we just need to be patient.
New technology takes time to establish itself and begin to replace old technology. In point of fact no technology ever becomes completely obsolete. There is still a market for vinyl records and film photography. Even knives made from volcanic glass have a role in modern surgery. Right now both Bluetooth control and dead-rail power are niche products. For now.
Good luck with that. Nobody in HO takes LIONEL seriously. They have been in and out of HO so many times everyone has lost count.
Same as their rivals at MTH who's venture into HO was a failure from the perspective of most HO modelers.
Some of us hope that Athearn...which is owned by RC-car distributor Horizon...would get into the radio/wireless control model train business.
I have just discovered that Lionel has developed their own Bluetooth control system, which they call 'LionChief'. And it appears they are promoting it whole-heartedly. I've seen there are a number of sets for sale that feature the system.
I'm not sure if this is a new development, or somehow I've just missed it.
I've looked to see if there are LionChief Bluetooth decoders available to retrofit locomotives. As best I can tell they aren't. At least not yet. But I'm very interested to learn if they will be, what their dimensions are, and what they will cost.
The LionChief app is available for download. It is compatible with both iPhone and Android phones.
http://www.lionel.com/bluetooth/
That page announces that LionChief will work with O-Gauge, S-Gauge and HO trains. So I expect there will be decoders small enough to install in my HO locomotives.
I am very encouraged by this development. If Lionel is getting behind Bluetooth control then I see it as having enough manufacturer support to get traction in the hobby.
I have little hope that Bachmann is going to turn around. I've much more hope that Hornby will make a go of it. And now it seems Lionel is going to make a serious run at it. Bluetooth may very well have a future in model railroading!
Just use the small cell phone type batterys if that works in series and they are dirt cheap and almost everyone knows about charging them. You could use a micro DPDT switch between the battery and the wheels used for charging, should avoid all charging proublems from rails.
Just Wanna PlayThe idea of just recharging them from a set voltage on the rails looks hopeless.
why not power the recharging track with the Nickle-Metal-Hydride charger?
connect the charger to the tracks thru a switch. presumably the charger has some LED that indicate it is charging and when charging is complete to make sure the loco is making good contact with the rails
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I've had some time to experiment with my Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries. From a full charge, two batteries, wired in series, they can run my test loco setup for about a half hour.
But I've run into serious trouble trying to recharge them. A brief search online found me this article, which basically told me that recharging Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries is anything but simple.
https://www.powerstream.com/NiMH.htm
So I'm giving up on Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries. The idea of just recharging them from a set voltage on the rails looks hopeless.
I have some batteries from a small quad-copter drone I received as a gift a few years ago. I know they recharge quickly and without issues. I don't know what their output voltage or current looks like. I'll try testing them and see if they are anywhere close to being usable.
Onder if you cound run cell phone batterys in series, then the standard c port would work for charging, why reinvent the wheel. The smallest I found was 1/2"x1/2" and not very thick.
Open terminal.
Just Wanna Play I measured the output voltage of my batteries, and that turned out to be 17.5 volts. I like that. If I provide 18 volts to the track that should keep the batteries topped up, hopefully without over-charging them.
I measured the output voltage of my batteries, and that turned out to be 17.5 volts. I like that. If I provide 18 volts to the track that should keep the batteries topped up, hopefully without over-charging them.
Is that an open terminal measurement or the actual voltage when connected to the motor and under load?
A couple of days ago I received a pair of Energizer 9-Volt Nickel Metal Hydride batteries. I wired them up in series and used them to run an HO locomotive around my track. Battery only power. No track power.
In theory I was operating on 18 volts, and the loco ran just fine. Fast, but okay. I would have tried to see how long it would run on the batteries, but my battery car would fall over every so often. I'll have to fix that.
Next job is to set up an actual train, using a loco with Bluetooth control and a better battery car.
To be continued...
rrebellonly located at coaling or fueling stations on the layout.
wouldn't it take much longer to charge batteries in between sessions than a short stop under a coaling station?
i had thought there would be dedicated tracks for charging, perhaps around a turntable. those tracks would be powered by charging circuits that would avoid over-charging. there could be a fascia panel switch to turn the charging circuit on but also needs some indicator that there is a connection between the wheels and rail and current is flowing.
rrebellA micro switch on the loco could open and close the circuit to the wheels if that proved to be a proublem or could use a charging point though a stack or top vent on the the loco, pull it out plug would be there.
i hadn't thought about a switch on the loco which i think is needed otherwise it would power the rails and be susceptible to shorts which would be catastrophic without some limiting circuit.
Just Wanna Play So I tried it... I installed a fresh Energizer 9-volt battery in that test rig I had. Not surprisingly the loco ran faster, but still at a modest pace. I let the thing run and tried to time how long it ran before the battery up and quit. I didn't get to see when it stopped, but it did run something more than 2 hours but less than 3. I am thinking about buying a couple rechagable 9-volt Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries. From what I read they are less tempermental than Nickel-Cadmium or Lithium-Ion about how they get recharged. I'm homing in on a system with rechargable on-board batteries providing backup power, live rails pretty much everywhere providing primary power, and wireless control, either Bluetooth or RC.
So I tried it...
I installed a fresh Energizer 9-volt battery in that test rig I had. Not surprisingly the loco ran faster, but still at a modest pace.
I let the thing run and tried to time how long it ran before the battery up and quit. I didn't get to see when it stopped, but it did run something more than 2 hours but less than 3.
I am thinking about buying a couple rechagable 9-volt Nickel-Metal-Hydride batteries. From what I read they are less tempermental than Nickel-Cadmium or Lithium-Ion about how they get recharged.
I'm homing in on a system with rechargable on-board batteries providing backup power, live rails pretty much everywhere providing primary power, and wireless control, either Bluetooth or RC.
Just Wanna Play rrebell Bet you could build a battery powered train run from quad copters batterys, they are super cheap and small and very light. That's an interesting idea. But it brings up a question. What voltage would be suitable for train operation? A quick check online turns up such batteries at 3.7 volts, 7.4 volts, 9.6 volts, 11.1 volts and 14.8 volts. I'm pretty sure 3.7 volts isn't enough. I'd think 14.8 volts would be servicable. The intermediate voltages? Can't say just now. Drone/copter batteries are designed for high output for a short period of time. Model railroad operation is the opposite, low output for long periods. Not to say that makes drone/copter batteries unsuitable. Again, something worth exploring.
rrebell Bet you could build a battery powered train run from quad copters batterys, they are super cheap and small and very light.
Bet you could build a battery powered train run from quad copters batterys, they are super cheap and small and very light.
That's an interesting idea. But it brings up a question. What voltage would be suitable for train operation? A quick check online turns up such batteries at 3.7 volts, 7.4 volts, 9.6 volts, 11.1 volts and 14.8 volts.
I'm pretty sure 3.7 volts isn't enough. I'd think 14.8 volts would be servicable. The intermediate voltages? Can't say just now.
Drone/copter batteries are designed for high output for a short period of time. Model railroad operation is the opposite, low output for long periods. Not to say that makes drone/copter batteries unsuitable.
Again, something worth exploring.
Bachmann did not want to develop EZ-App any further than the initial release, so BlueRail partnered with SoundTraxx to make Blunami. You might want to consider using Blunami.
Anecdotes:
I have an Apple Watch from 2015 and still use it daily, 14-16 hours a day, which means it gets charged every day. Battery life has degraded, but it's still longer than I need.
Most of the LED bulbs in my house were installed over 7 years ago. There has been exactly one failure. Actually, they're not just in the house. The external bulbs are LED as well, including the post light that's one from sunset to sunrise 365 days a year. In all weather, from below 0F in the winter to over 90F in the summer.
I will state that those bulbs aren't Amazon specials - they're brand name bulbs from local stores.
I was really annoyed when a bulb in the basement storage area died, until I unscrewed it and discovered it was an incandescent.
Ultra long lasting bulbs are available overseas, however reading the specs shows that they're typically much lower light output levels. Think 40-60W equivalent max. So bulking up the electronics and reducing the power leads to much less heat and longer life, at the cost of needing many more bulbs.
Doughless gregc Doughless Just Wanna Play And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact. As for dead rail? I'm not an electronics subject matter expert. I don't understand this sentence, but maybe there is context I'm missing. my understanding is that that black stuff (not the crud) that accumulates on metal wheels that appears on paper towels used to clean wheels is due to micro-arcing between the wheels and rails. the micro-arcing is unlikely to cause a noticable power disruption that provents a loco from moving but could corrupt receiving a DCC packet. but DCC speed packets are repeatedly sent and unless there's a change in speed is only likely to result in a delay 4944 I'm not following how wireless control, itself, would limit arching. Perhaps it was a short cut for assuming wireless coupled with dead rail. I think arching is created by track imperfections, like scratches, perhaps poor joints, and also the black crud itself. The existance of some black crud begets more black crud, eventually. Certainly non powered rails would eliminate these issues. Something that another has mentioned....battery life. Just anectodally and not specific to trains, but the migration to LED lightbulbs has not created the long-lived light bulbs I thought were advertised. Just basing it upon the amount of time I spend still replacing burned out LED bulbs in my light fixtures. I think Thomas Edison said long ago, the science can produce a filiment bulb that lasts 20 years, but it would probably cost $5,000. My point is that manufacturing realities and the need for low cost items influences the longevitity of everything, even the stuff we are told should last a long time. How long would the lithium batteries that manufacurers put in our trains really going to last?
gregc Doughless Just Wanna Play And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact. As for dead rail? I'm not an electronics subject matter expert. I don't understand this sentence, but maybe there is context I'm missing. my understanding is that that black stuff (not the crud) that accumulates on metal wheels that appears on paper towels used to clean wheels is due to micro-arcing between the wheels and rails. the micro-arcing is unlikely to cause a noticable power disruption that provents a loco from moving but could corrupt receiving a DCC packet. but DCC speed packets are repeatedly sent and unless there's a change in speed is only likely to result in a delay 4944
Doughless Just Wanna Play And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact. As for dead rail? I'm not an electronics subject matter expert. I don't understand this sentence, but maybe there is context I'm missing.
Just Wanna Play And the reason for going wireless is to avoid signaling glitches due to intermittent wheel-to-rail contact. As for dead rail?
I'm not an electronics subject matter expert. I don't understand this sentence, but maybe there is context I'm missing.
my understanding is that that black stuff (not the crud) that accumulates on metal wheels that appears on paper towels used to clean wheels is due to micro-arcing between the wheels and rails.
the micro-arcing is unlikely to cause a noticable power disruption that provents a loco from moving but could corrupt receiving a DCC packet. but DCC speed packets are repeatedly sent and unless there's a change in speed is only likely to result in a delay
4944
I'm not following how wireless control, itself, would limit arching. Perhaps it was a short cut for assuming wireless coupled with dead rail.
I think arching is created by track imperfections, like scratches, perhaps poor joints, and also the black crud itself. The existance of some black crud begets more black crud, eventually.
Certainly non powered rails would eliminate these issues.
Something that another has mentioned....battery life. Just anectodally and not specific to trains, but the migration to LED lightbulbs has not created the long-lived light bulbs I thought were advertised. Just basing it upon the amount of time I spend still replacing burned out LED bulbs in my light fixtures.
I think Thomas Edison said long ago, the science can produce a filiment bulb that lasts 20 years, but it would probably cost $5,000.
My point is that manufacturing realities and the need for low cost items influences the longevitity of everything, even the stuff we are told should last a long time. How long would the lithium batteries that manufacurers put in our trains really going to last?