riogrande5761 rrebell Funny! A few years ago I had to teach a person with a doctorite who worked in one of those silicon valley high tech companies how to open those very thin produce bags, she did not have a clue. Sounds like you were good and something she isn't, but to be sure, she is very good at something you aren't. Probably her skill commanded a commensurate salarly. How much can you make opening thin produce bags?
rrebell Funny! A few years ago I had to teach a person with a doctorite who worked in one of those silicon valley high tech companies how to open those very thin produce bags, she did not have a clue.
Sounds like you were good and something she isn't, but to be sure, she is very good at something you aren't. Probably her skill commanded a commensurate salarly. How much can you make opening thin produce bags?
Alton Junction
rrebellFunny! A few years ago I had to teach a person with a doctorite who worked in one of those silicon valley high tech companies how to open those very thin produce bags, she did not have a clue.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
PRR82591. Engineering school does not teach common sense. 2. Electrical Engineering professors ... think that they are above all other life forms of engineering.
2. Electrical Engineering professors ... think that they are above all other life forms of engineering.
wow!
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
The best you can do is to try youself; your track and trains will not die. This is typial in what you learn from textbook (or youtube today) and what you can do. Just try yourself on different methods and decide what is the best for you.
Good lcuk!
Jerry
1. Engineering school does not teach common sense. They like to teach you how the great mathematicians and thinkers of the past derived everything, which does not involve much practical application of ideas. That they assume you learn on the job. "Those who can do..."
2. Electrical Engineering professors at schools like the one I attended (Penn State University Main Campus) think that they are above all other life forms of engineering. We (all engineering students) had to take one electrical engineering course to graduate, but they didn't even bother to teach us in person, because we (civils) were considered to be beneath them. They made us watch class on a TV set, and the teaching assistant who was there to allegedly answer questions was someone from a foreign country whose accent you could not understand. You needed 50% of the points in that class to graduate, and many of us civils barely achieved that, which was good enough for a D.
(In Aerospace Engineering, the means on their exams were in the 40% range, but their grades would be curved at the end of the semester such that they could pass).
When I graduated in 1992, the aerospace engineers were falling over themselves to switch into civil engineering because fluid mechanics is the same and they could actually get jobs in stormwater management and drainage design, while there were very limited aerospace jobs. Maybe today it is different.
I can do basic wiring and soldering, but I don't have the equipment to work on circuit boards and have always worked with whatever others provided me there. If it isn't in the engine when I buy it, I generally don't add it. I have done one and one only simple decoder install.
John
betamax Don't fret if you don't understand electricity and electronics. Today I had to explain to a PhD how to change the voltage feed to his setup. Then had to reset the supply and explain that everything is working correctly, because 345V is correct when you want 600V line-to-line. It was a PhD that designed the power distribution system... Looks complex but it is really quite simple to visualize.
Don't fret if you don't understand electricity and electronics. Today I had to explain to a PhD how to change the voltage feed to his setup. Then had to reset the supply and explain that everything is working correctly, because 345V is correct when you want 600V line-to-line.
It was a PhD that designed the power distribution system... Looks complex but it is really quite simple to visualize.
Dave.
Not stupid. Just uninformed. I must have wired hundred of LEDs but sometimes I still hook them up backwards and have to redo the whole thing. Big difference between doing something dumb and being dumb. Stupid is not owning up to your mistakes and dealing with the mistakes in an intelligent way. Have fun and take each day the best way possible.
Pete.
Thanks everyone for your great responses! A couple of them were hilarious!
Just to clarify, I am quite capable of assembling simple electronic circuits despite my lack of understanding exactly how they work. My only point was that, despite my desire to understand how they work, it is quite obvious that that will never happen. Acknowledging that has actually been a bit of a relief. In other words, I am happy being stupid. It makes things so much easier!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
gregc Lastspikemike A diode bridge diagram, for example, is self explanatory without needing to understand how the transistors block current flow in one direction but allow it to flow in the other direction apparently not self-explanatory enough ... there are no transistors in a diode bridge
Lastspikemike A diode bridge diagram, for example, is self explanatory without needing to understand how the transistors block current flow in one direction but allow it to flow in the other direction
apparently not self-explanatory enough ... there are no transistors in a diode bridge
Lastspikemike Yes I realize a transistor is different from a diode. But not by much.
Yes I realize a transistor is different from a diode. But not by much.
Hello All,
"She Who Must Be Obeyed" always says...
"You don't have to know how to build a watch to tell time!"
I worked in the entertainment field for 20-years.
The first 5-years I was a drum, guitar, and bass technician.
I could maintain and repair all of the instruments under my charge but I could only play the drums.
To this day I can tune guitars and bass' but don't ask me to strum a lick.
For the next 15-years, I was an electrician- -lighting technician. In that time I progressed from apprentice to master electrician.
My specialty was in the fabrication and maintenance of control systems- -power distribution; 9-, 12-, 24- and 36 volt DC systems, dimming control racks ranging from 110V & 220V, 60HZ, and 240V & 480V, 50HZ, drawing up to 3,600 AMPs, and communication systems.
During my tenure with control systems, I began in the analog years, moved through the hybrid years, and ended my career in the fully digital era.
Many of the hybrid systems I worked with are similar, if not identical to the DCC protocol.
I can not tell you HOW a component functions but I can tell you WHAT its function is and how to diagnose and replace faulty ones.
To this day I still need to look up resistor color bands.
Don't despair at your lack of specific electronic knowledge, celebrate what you have learned and the practical applications of that knowledge.
Leave the rest to the EEs (Electronic Engineers)!
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
maxman gregc you may be better off searching for a description/video of either BJT or FET/MOSFET transistorsh Ummm, sure. Next I'll look up what bit chip mining is all about.
gregc you may be better off searching for a description/video of either BJT or FET/MOSFET transistorsh
Ummm, sure. Next I'll look up what bit chip mining is all about.
ok, too many acronyms. i tried finding a good page describing a transistor and most started with a discussion of types without a good discussion of how they work. and how much do you need to know to even understand those explanations (e.g. semiconductors).
while i may have learned about transistors from the TAT articles, it wasn't until a class on semiconductors that explained how they actually controlled current.
LastspikemikeA diode bridge diagram, for example, is self explanatory without needing to understand how the transistors block current flow in one direction but allow it to flow in the other direction
apparently not self-explanatory enough ... there are no transistors in a diode bridge and is this an explanation of a bridge or simply a diode.
one thing that makes basic mechanical engineering easier is that it's visible. the operation of electronics and software is invisible. of course it's frustrating
You're in good company, Dave. Or at least, you're in company. Since my dad (God rest him) did all the electronic stuff on my layout as a kid, I'm having to learn from scratch at nearly 60 years old. I feel like such a goob in here sometimes, but the help is here if you persist with very specific questions.
My brain seems to construct concepts best using metaphors and cartoons, and I have no intuitive understanding about electronics -- like, what's inside it, what makes those little particles do stuff, or the opposite stuff -- but I can use a wire stripper and follow clear instructions.
A number of times I have been presented with a challenge and asked the forum. Often the very generous help that has come back has been difficult for my brain to find a hook in -- it's too much detail out of any experiential context. And the books on wiring that I've bought often deal with a lot of concepts I don't understand. But in both the books and the forum responses I often am given a clear diagram of HOW TO HOOK IT UP, and those have been the moments that blow things open for me, at least in terms of knowing how to proceed.
One example was when Mel actually drew up MY LAYOUT in a CAD drawing and posted it so I could see visually what people were saying to me, and how he would block the plan I had posted. In the same thread, one of the Eds posted a diagram showing the wiring for a simple DC layout with four blocks. Armed with these two diagrams, I was off to the races; they gave me the template for moving forward with my 10-block plan, which now works beautifully.
Later on, I wanted to know how to hook up two Tortoises to throw two turnouts with a single switch, and Rich provided a color-coded diagram for that. I now proceed confidently wiring my Tortoises, and I have even been able to extrapolate enough understanding from those to create an electrified-frog version of my dad's simple safety-pin turnout throw, which I'm now calling a Modified Willard Pin Throw or a "hot willy"
Keep after it, Dave! If it explodes, reverse the wires and try again!
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
gregcyou may be better off searching for a description/video of either BJT or FET/MOSFET transistors
Ummm, sure. Next I'll look up what bitcoin mining is all about.
I'm a proud member of the KISS community. ( Keep It Simple & Stupid). I've learned that inputs go to outputs, outputs go to inputs, computers don't think but in fact react to input actions. I don't need to design new circuits because someone with more knowledge has done it already. Thirty years ago I couldn't adjust the clock on my VCR without an act of Congress, the proper alignment of the stars, and peace in the middle east. Thirty years later it's the same scenario in my car. It's like electrical engineers get a bonus for making it more complex. With just a little understanding instead of knowledge things get easier. Like the cashier trying to make change when the register is down. Knowing how to count helps.
You don't need to know everything, just a little bit of everything.
This is how I started to make progress, learn about each component, watching a video on the whole also makes my eyes glaze over. Learning what each little doodad actually does by watching a video or reading about the one item really helps when it all comes together.
I learned guitar over fifty years ago by learning how to play a song, not by learning how to play guitar. After you learn how to play a few songs the technical/theory part all starts to make sense and comes together. Build a few things as it is repetition that dummies like us can learn through.
I have fixed circuit boards in my son's PlayStation, the wiper control board in my car, and a couple of older stereo components as I got more confident. I do find my brain going back to how water runs through a hose or down a river or sits in a lake to remind me what the bits do.
My first lighting mock-up was pretty simple and straightforward but I was venturing into the unknown when I started.
Soldering those tiny LEDs was a real challenge but now I find it easy peasy and only takes a few seconds to whip some off.
How many model railroaders does it take to change a lightbulb?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
John-NYBWI've only been messing with CVs for about 3 or 4 years and only recently did I learn I can read back the CV settings.
And if you download JMRI Decoder Pro (free software) and connect it up to a computer or laptop you you can see the values of dozens of CV's at the same time.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I also don't fully understand why resistors are used in electronics. I also don't understand the "pulse" thing that sends signals to a decoder. It does not prevent me from installing decoders and adjusting CVs... There is a significant difference between designing something and installing/fixing something. Sure, I have fried a few things in my lifetime, but overall, I would say I am ahead of the game as each mistake leads to a lessons learned.
Simon
[/quote]
Lastspikemike You don't have to know how it works to use it or fix it. Sometimes you can understand something well enough without understanding technically what is thought to be happening. A diode bridge diagram, for example, is self explanatory without needing to understand how the transistors block current flow in one direction but allow it to flow in the other direction. The little symbol is actually just a picture of the flow and the block. One can wire up or even build and use a diode bridge while having no idea about semi-conductor physics, interesting though that is. At bottom we do not understand physics so much as we know how it works. Nobody understands gravity but we know how it works. It just is and it just does whatever. Einstein spent the remainder of his career after relativity trying to understand gravity in that fundamental sense. He never got there. But he could put his own trousers on.
You don't have to know how it works to use it or fix it.
Sometimes you can understand something well enough without understanding technically what is thought to be happening.
A diode bridge diagram, for example, is self explanatory without needing to understand how the transistors block current flow in one direction but allow it to flow in the other direction. The little symbol is actually just a picture of the flow and the block.
One can wire up or even build and use a diode bridge while having no idea about semi-conductor physics, interesting though that is.
At bottom we do not understand physics so much as we know how it works. Nobody understands gravity but we know how it works. It just is and it just does whatever. Einstein spent the remainder of his career after relativity trying to understand gravity in that fundamental sense. He never got there. But he could put his own trousers on.
This is exactly what I was referring to when I said much of the technical jargon might as well be in Chinese for all I know. I have no idea what a diode bridge is, what it looks like, or what it does. This is the reason I haven't been able to hook up my keep alives to my older Quantum decoders. I either need pictures or a clear explanation of exactly where each wire needs to be soldered. What I get is "Find the [symbols removed by moderator]" and I have no idea what the [symbols removed by moderator] is, what it looks like or what it does.
rrebell I have a real proublem with electronics as a lot of the stuff I was originaly tought was wrong so I get confused. One trouble with DCC instruction is a lot of it includes extra steps that are not nessisary. Example, programing an address, many instructions including those in the manual that comes with the unit has all these unnesisary steps to check your work like reading back CV's, now sure it is important to check your work but it is not neccisary to do so to get the basic job done and is really confusing to someone just starting out. I finnally found a video for Digitrax from Digitrax that did this so I must not be the only person who feels this way.
I have a real proublem with electronics as a lot of the stuff I was originaly tought was wrong so I get confused. One trouble with DCC instruction is a lot of it includes extra steps that are not nessisary. Example, programing an address, many instructions including those in the manual that comes with the unit has all these unnesisary steps to check your work like reading back CV's, now sure it is important to check your work but it is not neccisary to do so to get the basic job done and is really confusing to someone just starting out. I finnally found a video for Digitrax from Digitrax that did this so I must not be the only person who feels this way.
I've only been messing with CVs for about 3 or 4 years and only recently did I learn I can read back the CV settings. I have a Lenz system and had been doing all my CV changes by programming on main. I learned that if I used my progamming track, I couldn not only change CVs but read the current settings. I have found that to be useful at times.
Frankly, I learned much of my basic electronics knowledge from Model Railroader back in the 60's. Twin T, TAT throttles all contributed. By the time I took EE classes in college I knew most of the stuff already from model railroading.
hon30critter Hi folks, I had an educational experience tonight. Note that I did not say that it was a positive educational experience. What happened was that I found a couple of YouTube videos that promised to explain how basic electronic components work. Great, I thought. I will finally be able to understand these things. With great anticipation I started with a video on transistors. It only took about five minutes (of a 17 minute video) for me to recognize that I didn't understand most of what they were saying, and when I say 'most', I should be honest and say "I didn't understand anything.....". I tried a couple more videos in the series with the same results. So, the educational experience which I spoke of previously was actually a final realization that I don't have a clue about how electronics work and never will. I can follow instructions well enough to build simple circuits, but I don't think I will ever understand how they work and why. Please spare me your attempts to explain electronic principles. My eyes have glazed over enough already! Dave
Hi folks,
I had an educational experience tonight. Note that I did not say that it was a positive educational experience.
What happened was that I found a couple of YouTube videos that promised to explain how basic electronic components work. Great, I thought. I will finally be able to understand these things. With great anticipation I started with a video on transistors. It only took about five minutes (of a 17 minute video) for me to recognize that I didn't understand most of what they were saying, and when I say 'most', I should be honest and say "I didn't understand anything.....". I tried a couple more videos in the series with the same results.
So, the educational experience which I spoke of previously was actually a final realization that I don't have a clue about how electronics work and never will. I can follow instructions well enough to build simple circuits, but I don't think I will ever understand how they work and why.
Please spare me your attempts to explain electronic principles. My eyes have glazed over enough already!
I find myself in exactly the same boat. What goes on inside those little chips is a complete mystery to me. I go to this forum to get advice and a lot of it is very good and the things people tell me to try often work but I don't have a clue as to why they work. There is also a lot of jargon regarding electronics that might as well be in Chinese for all I understand it.
I was a mainframe computer programmer during my working life but that doesn't mean I had to understand how the electronics worked. I knew how the machine responded to commands in the the various programming languages I learned over the years but it didn't require me to understand what was going on "under the covers" as we use to say. That was somebody else's ballgame.
hon30critter but I don't think I will ever understand how they work and why.
you shouldn't come to that conclusion based on a single author
you may be better off searching for a description/video of either BJT or FET/MOSFET transistors
A lot depends upon the YouTube video(s) you choose to watch. In my experience, YouTube is about the last place that I would go to learn anything. Most YouTube videos are recorded by amateurs who spend more time blabbing than instructing.
When I come across a YouTube video that I think may be interesting or instructive, the first thing that I do is to check the length of the video. Anything over 10 minutes and I become skeptical. The next thing that I do is to use my cursor to flash frame my way through the video to see where things are heading. How often do I find that 10 minutes into the video, the guy is still blabbing.
If you want to learn more about electronics, buy a book or check out the shelves at your local library. If you conduct a thorough Google search, you can also find some quality websites.
Rich
Arduino Mel here, thanks John.Don’t despair Dave, I started out at a very early age (8) being taught by my uncle who was a broadcast engineer. By 11 I had a ham transmitter on the air built by me without help.We moved shortly after I turned 12 and was on my own from there on. Things were much simpler back in the 50s. I stuck with it and at 21 I ended up going to work in two-way radio communications in February 1958 and retired December 2007, 49 years and 10 months in electronics.I recently found a pretty good site for basic electronics.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzml9bXoEM0itbcE96CB03w Drop me a line any time for help.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Turned 84 in Jully, aging is definitely not for wimps.
Don't despair, Dave. I spent 4 years in the Navy working on aircraft radios, then 4 years after building electronic test equipment. All the theory went out the window after tech school. My discharge says I was a "technician". Nah, I was only an electronics plumber.
A curious perspective on the issue is highlighted by an occurence in tech school. Our very knowledgeful teacher, I think an E-7 Marine, informed us that an evaluator would be coming to class the next day to grade him. He was dismissive of this administrative tomfoolery and instructed the class to play along as he took the evaluator for a ride.
The next day came as planned. Gunny did as promised and spent 20 minutes or so of techno-speak proving that it wasn't really current that "flowed" through a conductor, but it was actually the wire that was moving. We all dutifully nodded and were informed the next day that our teacher had received top grades from the junior officer that had monitored the session.
How did I become a "plumber"? I learned quickly that there wasn't time to thoughtfully employ all that theory. We treated the symptoms with the regular cures and 95% of the time it did the job. 3% of the time we threatened to remove the serial number from the offending piece of equipment unless it behaved. The last 2% was cannibalized for parts we couldn't secure through the regular channels.
I suspect that this last translates directly to most model railroaders. We are indeed grateful and appreciative for Overmod and Arduino Mel, but frankly they're a step above most of us. Show us how to do it and where to come up with the parts. We'll take it from there. If we have modest programming issues, we'll call in our grandsons.