I recently discovered there are now 21 pin decoders on the market. Trainworld is selling this analog Pennsy RS-3 with a 21 pin plug.
Bowser #24685 ALCo RS-3 Pennsylvania #8595 (trainworld.com)
I think the DCC versions of this loco have sold out. If I buy a 21 pin sound decoder, just what am I getting myself into as far as soldering. If the plug has loose wires to solder to sugar cube speakers, I can handle that but if I have to solder connections directly to the decoder, that's above my skill level. There's an excellent chance I would end up frying the decoder.
I'm not sure if the analog version of the 21 pin mother board in the locomotive has soldering pads for the speaker. Nicks trains makes mother boards for the 21 pin decoders with resistors already installed on the lighting functions and sizable soldering pads.
Pete.
John,
May I suggest an idea? If you have some old electronics with boards (or even old light boards from trains), you could practice your soldering skills. I'm not the best at it, but have been getting better and soldered a few decoders.
wrench567 I'm not sure if the analog version of the 21 pin mother board in the locomotive has soldering pads for the speaker. Nicks trains makes mother boards for the 21 pin decoders with resistors already installed on the lighting functions and sizable soldering pads. Pete.
The pictures I've seen of these 21 pin decoders look like they don't have any wires attached. If I have to solder a wire to a small connection on the decoder, I'm not going there. There are decoders that have easily accesible tabs to solder to that stick out from the board itself and I can handle those but if the connections are small and/or are within the confines of the board, it's not going to happen.
21 pin decorders need to plug into something usually a motherboard. You need to make sure you get a NEM 21 pin decorder as Bowser advises or you could end up doing a lot of rewiring. Without looking at a locomotive from the specific production run there is no way to be sure what you have.
Lee
John.
Looking at the Bowser website they have some info for adding DCC. It appears there is a JST plug for a speaker on the latest board. If all else fails a decoder buddy mini will have all the connections necessary. Two pin JST connectors with wires are available in multitude of vendors.
I don't think there are any 21 pin decoders where you can solder anything to it. If you install a sound decoder, the connection for the speaker(s) will be on the lightboard where you plug in the decoder, not on the decoder itself. Many manufacturers use some sort of two-pin connector for plugging in a speaker. You may want to go to Bowser's website to check it out, it might be easier to purchase a speaker from them that is made to plug into their board.
TrainWorld has a pretty good price on a 21-pin decoder that should work, it has both EMD and Alco sounds. I have an engine with one in it and I like it.
https://www.trainworld.com/soundtraxx-882006-eco-21pnem-econami-diesel-sound-decoder-soundtraxx-882006.html?qty=1
Be sure to use the 10% off coupon that TrainWorld puts in their magazine ads in RMC, MR, etc.!!
There are soldering pads on ESU 21 pin decoders, at least some of them, for aux lighting. Mike has it right, speakers are powered via the 21 pin system.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
wrench567 I'm not sure if the analog version of the 21 pin mother board in the locomotive has soldering pads for the speaker. Nicks trains makes mother boards for the 21 pin decoders with resistors already installed on the lighting functions and sizable soldering pads. Pete. Yes they have dedicaded pads for speakers.
Yes they have dedicaded pads for speakers.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Soundtraxx also has a 21pin mother board. For hardwiring, they have installed a 9 pin plug. so you can get a standard 9 pin harness to hard wire in. then, just plug into the mother board. this mother board has speaker pads. it also has a set of pads specifically for keep alives. it has extra pads for the other features the 21 pin can do. the decoader just plugs in. the mother board has uneven pin rows so the decoder fits only one way.
I am now working on that very install in an old p2k sw9. I will take a pic tomorrow when I get home
Shane
wrench567Nicks trains makes mother boards for the 21 pin decoders with resistors already installed on the lighting functions and sizable soldering pads.
Pete mentioned Nicks Trains and I believe his suggestion needs further notice and clarification.
I've installed a few 21 pin decoders using the Decoder Buddy. They were made for eachother. He offers several types and I generally go for the smaller one which allows more room for speakers and wiring.
https://nicknixtrainz.com/
I bought mine from Yankee Dabbler and when one arrived with cruncherd pins they immediately sent me a replacement at no charge.
Do more research on the Decoder Buddy and you will get some ideas for their use.
Last I heard there is presently a shortage of 21 pin decoders. Some of my other 21 pin installs were using the TCS WOWsound decoders and their mating motherboards. Similar to the Decoder Buddy but with stay-alive built in.
https://tcsdcc.com/wowdiesel/motherboards
Next18, Next18-S and PluX are coming down the path.
https://dccwiki.com/Locomotive_Interface
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBo6AFfPd2c
Good Luck, Ed
I have a couple of Bowser C430s that came dcc-ready with a 21-pin connection.
The connection isn't "a plug" (female) -- rather, its 21 pins sticking straight up from the light board.
I used an ESU 53614 on these, they both run beautifully with it. This is a "motor-only", non-sound decoder, however.
The decoder just "pushes down onto" the pins. You want to be careful that they're all lined up properly before you apply pressure!
gmpullman Pete mentioned Nicks Trains and I believe his suggestion needs further notice and clarification. I've installed a few 21 pin decoders using the Decoder Buddy. They were made for eachother. He offers several types and I generally go for the smaller one which allows more room for speakers and wiring. https://nicknixtrainz.com/ I bought mine from Yankee Dabbler and when one arrived with cruncherd pins they immediately sent me a replacement at no charge. Do more research on the Decoder Buddy and you will get some ideas for their use. Last I heard there is presently a shortage of 21 pin decoders. Some of my other 21 pin installs were using the TCS WOWsound decoders and their mating motherboards. Similar to the Decoder Buddy but with stay-alive built in. https://tcsdcc.com/wowdiesel/motherboards Next18, Next18-S and PluX are coming down the path. https://dccwiki.com/Locomotive_Interface Good Luck, Ed
I agree with Ed, get yourself a Decoder Buddy. It has the header on it that a 21 pin decoder mates with. Just wire in the board, install the decoder and you are done.
One caveat: The NMRA only adopted the NEM pinouts for the 21MTC decoder interface in Dcecember 2020. If you already have a decoder, you must verify if it follows the NEM or NMRA pinout. Some manufacturers followed the NMRA standard (at the time), the Europeans followed NEM. ESU follows the NEM pinout because, well, they developed the interface.
This situation should sort itself out in time as older NMRA decoders are replaced by the manufacturers with NMRA/NEM compliant ones.
Thanks for all the replies. I'm trying to process all of this information. I already have more locos than I really need so I don't anticipate I will be buying a lot more and I anticipate that future purchases will come with factory decoders and sound. I have a very specific loco in mind which is a Bowser Pennsy RS-3 which is DCC ready with a 21 pin plug. I was going to buy the DCC version but I missed when it became available and it apparently sold out fairly quickly leaving only the analog version as an option for the Pennsy.
If I am understanding all the comments collectively, there will be no soldering to the decoder itself. That gives me more confidence. To add a speaker, I would solder to the light board, not the decoder itself. If I have misunderstood this, I'm sure someone will correct me.
You are correct. The decoder itself will have very little if any soldering pads. For your application all the soldering will be on the motherboard/ light board. I'm not sure if the locomotive will have LED lights. Something else to consider.
I've been waiting for the DCC version with train phone for awhile. I missed the preorder and will have to wait for another run. This would be my only RS unit with the above hood number boards and train phone. It would be nice for people running commuter operations if they produce a hammer head RS3 with steam generator. I would preorder that.
wrench567 John. You are correct. The decoder itself will have very little if any soldering pads. For your application all the soldering will be on the motherboard/ light board. I'm not sure if the locomotive will have LED lights. Something else to consider. I've been waiting for the DCC version with train phone for awhile. I missed the preorder and will have to wait for another run. This would be my only RS unit with the above hood number boards and train phone. It would be nice for people running commuter operations if they produce a hammer head RS3 with steam generator. I would preorder that. Pete.
I saw in November that both DC and DCC versions would be available in mid-December but then forgot about it until reminded by a recent thread and now all I can find available is the DC version. I think by buying the DC version through Trainworld and a separate decoder I'll actually save about $30 over what I would have paid for the DCC version.
Myself like many of our fellow modelers have no problem installing a decoder. I'm trying to standardize on one manufacturer and Bowser using the ESU decoders is a plus. I'm waiting for an ESU decoder right now that has been backordered for a couple weeks now. I could get the more expensive multi protocol 21 pin for another $20. But I don't see myself ever using other than DCC. I'll save the money and wait.
There are other things to consider. Speaker. The factory speaker and housing is $32 according to the Bowser website. I buy Sugar cubes with housings on Ebay for $10 and free shipping. Also there is a risk of damaging some detail part. While rare, it does happen. Just yesterday I broke 2 truck chains on a P2K 0-6-0 that I am trying to repair the drawbar connector where last week the pin for the drawbar came off with the screw. I'm getting too old for more drama.
I'm a simple man that doesn't ask for much. Something as simple as having the large kitchen trash bags actually fitting the large kitchen trash can would be a start.
Bowser's second RS-3 run will be coming up soon. There's several PRR later styles being offered. The price difference (Tony's as an example) for DCC and sound is $80.
https://tonystrains.com/manufacturers/bowser
I'm holding out for Nickel Plate and Erie-Lackawanna myself. For $80 I'll let the factory install my decoder and speaker.
Lastspikemike Don't forget the cost of adding the speaker. Pin my estimation these DCC models are priced at less than the cost of DC plus decoder plus speaker without any allowance for the added labour. I suspect the per unit labour cost to install the decoder and speaker at the factory is trivial.
Don't forget the cost of adding the speaker.
Pin my estimation these DCC models are priced at less than the cost of DC plus decoder plus speaker without any allowance for the added labour. I suspect the per unit labour cost to install the decoder and speaker at the factory is trivial.
I have about a half dozen surplus sugar cube speakers but I should add that into the cost of an upgrade. Still it's a bargain. I bought what I believe was Trainworld's last DC Pennsy RS-3 this morning for $150. I also ordered an Econami 21 pin sound decoder for $70. Shipping was around $15. Add $10 for the price of a speaker and we are at $245 plus sales tax. I believe the Trainworld price is a closeout price. If I remember right, Bowser had listed the DC version at $200 and the DCC at $300. The new preorder price is $10 higher for both. If shipping costs are comparable I figure the savings by installing the decoder myself comes to about $80. That's paying closeout price on the DC loco itself. If I paid MSRP at the current preorder price, I'd only save about $20 by doing the decoder and speaker install myself.
gmpullman Bowser's second RS-3 run will be coming up soon. There's several PRR later styles being offered. The price difference (Tony's as an example) for DCC and sound is $80. https://tonystrains.com/manufacturers/bowser I'm holding out for Nickel Plate and Erie-Lackawanna myself. For $80 I'll let the factory install my decoder and speaker. Good Luck, Ed
I was typing my reply as you were posting yours. Looks like we calculated the same savings of about $80 with a DIY install. For that price, it's worth it to me to do the install myself as long as there is no difficult soldering that risks frying a decoder. If I had to pay MSRP for the DC loco, the savings wouldn't be nearly as much and I would opt for a factory installed decoder and speaker.
It doesn't look like the next pre-order line is going to have a Pennsy version so if I wanted Pennsy, I had to go with what is available now. Looks like I got Trainworld's last Pennsy RS-3.
Even suggesting soldering seems a bit "off" since the engine has a lightboard with a 21-pin receptacle. You just plug the decoder into the receptacle. No need to use a Decoder Buddy that will do exactly the same thing the existing set-up already does, and requires extensive soldering to put in place.
If you can't find the right size miniplug for the speaker connection, you might have to solder two wires from the speaker to a connection on the greenboard, but nothing gets soldered to the decoder.
This is the small decoder buddy. The two pads mark sp are the speakers.
This is sound traxxs version of decoder buddy. the NMRA 9 pin makes it easier to hardwire using the NMRA harness. The pads are for the extra functions the 21 pin has. On the right is the two pads for the speaks that have wires soldered on.
Here a decoder is mounted on the motherboard.
John-NYBWLooks like I got Trainworld's last Pennsy RS-3
Plus the first run has the trainphone already installed. That saves you about $20 in Cal scale parts plus all the fuss to thread the brass wire, paint, and make everything look nice.
Hopefully I'll be around to see the E-L and Nickel Plate ones.
Cheers, Ed
Another vote for the Decoder Buddy. A very useful product.
Nevin Wilson Another vote for the Decoder Buddy. A very useful product.
If I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be.
I already have more locos than I need and this latest purchase is one more. I didn't need it but I wanted it. In the future, I anticipate most of my efforts will be to add sound to existing locos that currently don't have it. These have a variety of different decoder types. With some of the older locos, the challenge will be finding space for even a sugar cube speaker. Also needed will be replacing the headlights with LEDs on the older locos.
John-NYBW Another vote for the Decoder Buddy. A very useful product. If I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be. I already have more locos than I need and this latest purchase is one more. I didn't need it but I wanted it. In the future, I anticipate most of my efforts will be to add sound to existing locos that currently don't have it. These have a variety of different decoder types. With some of the older locos, the challenge will be finding space for even a sugar cube speaker. Also needed will be replacing the headlights with LEDs on the older locos.
If the locomotive board has an easily identifiable pads for attaching the speaker wires, then I agree with you. Some boards use plugs for the wiring and it isn't that easy to identify where the speakers attach. I use TCS Wowsound decoders and there are no places to attach the speaker wires on the decoder itself. If you want to add a keep-alive then the Decoder Buddy is really necessary. All of my locomotives have Keep-alives attached.
John-NYBW I recently discovered there are now 21 pin decoders on the market. Trainworld is selling this analog Pennsy RS-3 with a 21 pin plug. Bowser #24685 ALCo RS-3 Pennsylvania #8595 (trainworld.com) I think the DCC versions of this loco have sold out. If I buy a 21 pin sound decoder, just what am I getting myself into as far as soldering. If the plug has loose wires to solder to sugar cube speakers, I can handle that but if I have to solder connections directly to the decoder, that's above my skill level. There's an excellent chance I would end up frying the decoder.
The OP is looking at buying a locomotive that has a lightboard with a 21-pin receptacle already installed. He is asking if he has to do a lot of soldering to connect it up. The answer is NO you don't need ANY soldering. You plug the decoder into the 21 pin socket. PERIOD. Why is everyone advising him to take the board with the 21 pin receptacle out and replace with a Decoder Buddy that does EXACTLY the same thing as the board he's taking out?
The engine also has a place for a two pin plug to connect the speaker. That's why I suggested he look at the Bowser website, as it might be easier to get a speaker with the correct plug already attached.
Nevin Wilson John-NYBW Another vote for the Decoder Buddy. A very useful product. If I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be. I already have more locos than I need and this latest purchase is one more. I didn't need it but I wanted it. In the future, I anticipate most of my efforts will be to add sound to existing locos that currently don't have it. These have a variety of different decoder types. With some of the older locos, the challenge will be finding space for even a sugar cube speaker. Also needed will be replacing the headlights with LEDs on the older locos. If the locomotive board has an easily identifiable pads for attaching the speaker wires, then I agree with you. Some boards use plugs for the wiring and it isn't that easy to identify where the speakers attach. I use TCS Wowsound decoders and there are no places to attach the speaker wires on the decoder itself. If you want to add a keep-alive then the Decoder Buddy is really necessary. All of my locomotives have Keep-alives attached. Nevin Wilson
About three year ago I bought Keep Alives for several of my locos that tend to stall on insulated frogs, specifically two BLI SW7s and a BLI Pacific. After I got them, I couldn't find any place that would tell me in plain English where to attach the Keep Alives so they remain on the shelf.
John-NYBW I couldn't find any place that would tell me in plain English where to attach the Keep Alives so they remain on the shelf.
I've installed several capacitors in BLI Paragon decoders. I don't know about having space inside an SW7 unless there's room in the cab?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdOzEN03P60
BLI_K4_cap2 by Edmund, on Flickr
On some Paragon 3 decoders, I had to write 2 to CV 221 if the engine has a smoke unit or 0 to CV 221 for engines without smoke in order to make the stay alive active. Also, CV 11 will allow you to choose how much time the motor sees the capacitor output.
I've used TCS and Soundtraxx capacitor packs as well as the BLI "Go Pack" with good results from each.
gmpullman John-NYBW I couldn't find any place that would tell me in plain English where to attach the Keep Alives so they remain on the shelf. I've installed several capacitors in BLI Paragon decoders. I don't know about having space inside an SW7 unless there's room in the cab? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdOzEN03P60 BLI_K4_cap2 by Edmund, on Flickr On some Paragon 3 decoders, I had to write 2 to CV 221 if the engine has a smoke unit or 0 to CV 221 for engines without smoke in order to make the stay alive active. Also, CV 11 will allow you to choose how much time the motor sees the capacitor output. I've used TCS and Soundtraxx capacitor packs as well as the BLI "Go Pack" with good results from each. Good Luck, Ed
Unfortunately, my two SW7s and K4 Pacifics were the first locos I bought with factory decoders and sound and this was in the early 2000s. As I recall, these are QSI decoders. I did find this on Tony's Train Exchange for attaching a Keep Alive to a QSI Titan U Type decoder.
QSI Titan with Stay Alive Capacitor | News & Resources (tonystrains.com)
I'll have to look to see if this is similar enough to the decoders in my locos that I can use it as a guide. One thing I don't want to do is guess as to where to solder the Keep Alives I have, even if it is an educated guess. If I hook it up to the wrong connection, there is a good chance I will fry the decoder.
Since Keep Alive technology is a lot newer than the decoders I have, I have found very little instructions on attaching them to older decoders and what little I have found uses technical jargon which might as well be in Chinese for all the good they do me.
I am not very saavy when it comes to electronics. I need idiot proof instructions and have yet to find it for what I want to do. Preferably something with lots of pictures.