Lastspikemike I misunderstood what a PowerPax is. Apparently, it can supply the extra current required by a keepalive and still keep programming current low to safeguard a decoder. https://tonystrains.com/product/dcc-specialties-powerpax-dcc-programming-booster
I misunderstood what a PowerPax is. Apparently, it can supply the extra current required by a keepalive and still keep programming current low to safeguard a decoder.
https://tonystrains.com/product/dcc-specialties-powerpax-dcc-programming-booster
As far as I know the PowerPax is an accessory for the programming track only. I'm pretty sure it predates Keep Alives so that wasn't the purpose for it. I found I needed it to program new locos that had sound decoders. Apparently, my base system didn't have enough juice for those decoders.
I'm able to program on the main with no help from the PowerPax with all of my decoders. Until yesterday, it had been wired to the programming track. I'll keep it on stand by if I need it for any other decoders that require it.
wrench567 John. Can you post a picture of the plug for the speaker? On the Bowser website it appears to be a micro JST. I recently received a five pack of micro JST wired plugs off eBay for $3. I'm going to use them for speaker and light connections to easily remove shells for maintenance. The 21 pin decoders have been around for years in Europe and elsewhere. I wish more companies would adopt the next 18 plugs. Way smaller than the 21. Pete.
John.
Can you post a picture of the plug for the speaker? On the Bowser website it appears to be a micro JST. I recently received a five pack of micro JST wired plugs off eBay for $3. I'm going to use them for speaker and light connections to easily remove shells for maintenance.
The 21 pin decoders have been around for years in Europe and elsewhere. I wish more companies would adopt the next 18 plugs. Way smaller than the 21.
Pete.
I'll try to post a picture next week when I receive the Bowser speaker kit that I bought on ebay. The seller charged a dollar less than Bowser and offered free shipping as opposed to $9.95 that Bowser charges.
I've already reassembled the loco and am running it without sound. I don't want to handle it more than is necessary. It has a lot of fragile fine detail and the less I handle it with my ham hands, the longer that fine detail will hold up.
I'm really impressed with how this loco looks and operates. I got a bargain on the DC version from Trainworld and with the Econami decoder and Bowser speaker kit, I'll have around $240 in it. That's a bargain by today's standards. Bowser is taking pre-orders for their next run and the MSRP for the DCC version is $310. I think even at that price it's worth the money although none of the roadnames I currently have on my layout are offered in the next run.
Thanks, Lee, for that additional information. I should have mentioned that I own an NCE PH-Pro system. The PTB-100 works fine as a programming track booster.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich,
This is a problem that a lot of people have had to deal with. The original Tsunami and some other decoders could not be programmed with some DCC systems (Digitrax) so programming boosters appeared. First the PowerPax and then the PTB-100. The PTB-100 worked best with Soundtraxx. Soundtraxx made a change to their newer decoders so they don't need a booster. With this change the Powerpax had problems. Digitrax also made a change to their newer DCC systems so no booster is required. If you have a PTB-100 installed you can keep using it no worries.
richhotrain Lee 1234 if you are still using the PowerPax remove it and try programming without it. The PowerPax does not play well with newer Soundtraxx decoders. A question for Lee. Years ago, I installed a Power Pax so that I could program sound decoders, but I returned it since it wouldn't program them. Instead, I installed the Soundtraxx PTB-100, and I still use it to this day. So, my question is, why would removing the Power Pax without installing a replacement programming track booster work? Rich
Lee 1234 if you are still using the PowerPax remove it and try programming without it. The PowerPax does not play well with newer Soundtraxx decoders.
if you are still using the PowerPax remove it and try programming without it. The PowerPax does not play well with newer Soundtraxx decoders.
A question for Lee.
Years ago, I installed a Power Pax so that I could program sound decoders, but I returned it since it wouldn't program them.
Instead, I installed the Soundtraxx PTB-100, and I still use it to this day.
So, my question is, why would removing the Power Pax without installing a replacement programming track booster work?
Lee
wjstix John-NYBW I wish I understood electronics better. I don't know why I needed PowerPax to begin with and why I needed to remove it for this installation. I guess the results is what matters. Since you're just starting with DCC sound now, you may find you won't ever need the power booster - unless you buy an old decoder or a used engine with sound or something. It seems like the need for a power booster was more of a necessity with the early sound decoders. Programming tracks are set up to use less power than regular DCC, and with some sound decoders it wasn't enough power to read the CVs and such. Seems like it's not an issue as often nowadays. A year or two back when I first installed my PR4 (connecting programming track to computer) I had some problems getting decoders to read on my programming track, I disconnected my PowerPax gizmo, and have been able to read and program with DecoderPro fine ever since.
John-NYBW I wish I understood electronics better. I don't know why I needed PowerPax to begin with and why I needed to remove it for this installation. I guess the results is what matters.
Since you're just starting with DCC sound now, you may find you won't ever need the power booster - unless you buy an old decoder or a used engine with sound or something. It seems like the need for a power booster was more of a necessity with the early sound decoders. Programming tracks are set up to use less power than regular DCC, and with some sound decoders it wasn't enough power to read the CVs and such. Seems like it's not an issue as often nowadays.
A year or two back when I first installed my PR4 (connecting programming track to computer) I had some problems getting decoders to read on my programming track, I disconnected my PowerPax gizmo, and have been able to read and program with DecoderPro fine ever since.
I'm not new to DCC sound. I've had it for about 15 years. What I am new to is 21 pin decoders. A week ago, I didn't even know there was such a thing. It seems these decoders rely more on plug ins and less on soldered connections. To me, that is a positive.
John-NYBWI wish I understood electronics better. I don't know why I needed PowerPax to begin with and why I needed to remove it for this installation. I guess the results is what matters.
Lastspikemike John-NYBW Lee 1234 if you are still using the PowerPax remove it and try programming without it. The PowerPax does not play well with newer Soundtraxx decoders. BINGO!!! Worked like a charm. Thank you. I wish I understood electronics better. I don't know why I needed PowerPax to begin with and why I needed to remove it for this installation. I guess the results is what matters. Keepalives absorb power as the locomotive is powered up. This reduces the power available for programming. Since the programming signal is quite brief the keepalive can essentially just swallow it up. Some decoders need to be programmed on the main for similar reasons. Programming tracks limit power output to protect the decoder while programming.
John-NYBW Lee 1234 if you are still using the PowerPax remove it and try programming without it. The PowerPax does not play well with newer Soundtraxx decoders. BINGO!!! Worked like a charm. Thank you. I wish I understood electronics better. I don't know why I needed PowerPax to begin with and why I needed to remove it for this installation. I guess the results is what matters.
BINGO!!! Worked like a charm. Thank you.
I wish I understood electronics better. I don't know why I needed PowerPax to begin with and why I needed to remove it for this installation. I guess the results is what matters.
Keepalives absorb power as the locomotive is powered up. This reduces the power available for programming. Since the programming signal is quite brief the keepalive can essentially just swallow it up. Some decoders need to be programmed on the main for similar reasons. Programming tracks limit power output to protect the decoder while programming.
This doesn't have a Keep Alive but that's good to know if I ever do install one.
Now that I have the loco running under DCC, the next step is to add the sound kit. I several single and double sugar cube speakers and I wanted to use those but I need to plug them into the lightboard. I was hoping it would take standard two pin JST plugs but it needs a smaller plug than that. Bowser sells just the plug which can be used to solder to a speaker of your choice. The part sells for $2.50 but shipping is $9.95. It rubs me the wrong way to pay 4 times more for shipping than the part itself so I think I'll buy their entire sound kit. At least the part will cost more than the shipping. I think it's going to be around $20 for part and shipping if I go that route.
UPDATE: I found the speaker kit on ebay for just under $17 with free shipping. With tax it came to $18.18.
wjstix John-NYBW I removed the DC 21 pin recetacle and then oriented the #1 pin per the instructions. Not sure what you mean by 'DC 21 pin receptacle'? Was there a dummy plug you had to remove? Only thought I have is double-check that all the pins got inserted, it can be easy for one or two to get bent and not fit in the holes in the decoder.
John-NYBW I removed the DC 21 pin recetacle and then oriented the #1 pin per the instructions.
Not sure what you mean by 'DC 21 pin receptacle'? Was there a dummy plug you had to remove?
Only thought I have is double-check that all the pins got inserted, it can be easy for one or two to get bent and not fit in the holes in the decoder.
Yes, although I don't think it was a dummy plug. It appeared to have electrical components. It had the same 21 hole configuration as the decoder.
I did double check the pins. After the first install failed, I reinstalled the original board and checked that the loco still ran. It did. When I removed it the second time, I noticed that the 1 pin was bent. The instructions tell you to pull straight up so as not to bend the pins. That sounds good but the problem is neither the original board nor the decoder pops out easily so as you are pulling straight up with some pressure, the tendency is for one end to come free first and that causes the board to flip over to the side that's still attached which bends the pins on that side. I was able to straighten out the pins and when I switched from the original board back to the decoder, I made sure I inserted it on that side first to get those pins in the proper hole, then carefully pressed down to the other side, making sure the pins on the far end also got in the proper holes. Once I saw the pins were properly seated, I slowly pressed down until the decoder was fully seated. If any of the pins had not gotten into the proper hole, it would not have been possible to press the decoder all the way down.
John-NYBWI removed the DC 21 pin recetacle and then oriented the #1 pin per the instructions.
I received the Soundtrax Econami decoder yesterday and today attempted to install it. It has not gone well. I first test the loco in DC mode and it ran smoothly in both directions. The I removed the shell and looked at the boards that were installed. I found an online tutorial for installing a 21 pin decoder into a different model of Bowser loco. I followed the instructions on the decoder package and the tutorial. I removed the DC 21 pin recetacle and then oriented the #1 pin per the instructions. There is only one way to orient the decoder and line up the #1 pin properly. I required a bit of pressure but I got the decoder pushed all the way down on the pins. With the shell still off, I took it to the programming track and attempted to assign the loco number as the address. A blue light flashed on the decoder but my Lenz LH100 displayed ERR 02 which is the standard message I get when an addressing change doesn't take. I attempted to display the decoder address and got the same ERR 02. I put the loco on the layout and attempted to run it under the new address and also address 3. Not only did neither work, but the system locked up whenever I attempted to enter either address. I double checked to make sure the decoder had been seated properly on the 21 pins. All looked good.
Since the loco ran as a DC loco, that seems to indicate there is a problem with the decoder. I remember when sound decoders came out my basic Lenz system could not program them without adding a Power Pax to the decoder track. This is the first time I have attempted to program a 21 pin decoder so I'm wondering another accessory is necesary to program these newer decoders.
Other than possibly having a defective decoder, I have no idea what could be wrong.
wjstix John-NYBW If I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be. The Decoder Buddy is designed to be installed in an engine that does NOT already have a connection for a 21-pin decoder. Like if you wanted to install a 21-pin decoder in an old engine that had an 8- or 9-pin receptacle - which was common before 21-pin connections started being used around 2015. If you buy an engine that has the 21-pin plug-in connection - like the one you're talking about - you plug the decoder into the connection. No soldering, no Decoder Buddy! The engine you want to buy has a 2-pin connection on the lightboard to plug in the connection to the speaker. If you buy a speaker from Bowser, you're sure to get one with the right plug that will plug right into the board. So you plug the 21-pin decoder into the existing lightboard, plug the two-wire speaker plug into the 2-pin speaker receptacle, and you're done.
John-NYBW If I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be.
The Decoder Buddy is designed to be installed in an engine that does NOT already have a connection for a 21-pin decoder.
Like if you wanted to install a 21-pin decoder in an old engine that had an 8- or 9-pin receptacle - which was common before 21-pin connections started being used around 2015.
If you buy an engine that has the 21-pin plug-in connection - like the one you're talking about - you plug the decoder into the connection. No soldering, no Decoder Buddy!
The engine you want to buy has a 2-pin connection on the lightboard to plug in the connection to the speaker. If you buy a speaker from Bowser, you're sure to get one with the right plug that will plug right into the board. So you plug the 21-pin decoder into the existing lightboard, plug the two-wire speaker plug into the 2-pin speaker receptacle, and you're done.
Now that's the kind of "soldering" I can handle.
The loco arrived Saturday. I ordered a 21 pin Econami decoder at the same time but it didn't arrive. Yesterday was a holiday so I'm hoping the decoder arrives today.
If I'm understanding you, I need to get a plug-in speaker. I found this on the bowser website and it looks to be the case.
Retro 21 pin sound instructions (bowser-trains.com)
Is there any reason I can't just order the plug (item #691-1292 below) and solder it to one of the sugarcube speakers and baffle I already have?
HO Retro Fit Sound & Sound Chassis (bowser-trains.com)
It's amazing the 21 pin decoders have been around this long and this is the first I have heard of them.
John-NYBWIf I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be.
gmpullman John-NYBW I couldn't find any place that would tell me in plain English where to attach the Keep Alives so they remain on the shelf. I've installed several capacitors in BLI Paragon decoders. I don't know about having space inside an SW7 unless there's room in the cab? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdOzEN03P60 BLI_K4_cap2 by Edmund, on Flickr On some Paragon 3 decoders, I had to write 2 to CV 221 if the engine has a smoke unit or 0 to CV 221 for engines without smoke in order to make the stay alive active. Also, CV 11 will allow you to choose how much time the motor sees the capacitor output. I've used TCS and Soundtraxx capacitor packs as well as the BLI "Go Pack" with good results from each. Good Luck, Ed
John-NYBW I couldn't find any place that would tell me in plain English where to attach the Keep Alives so they remain on the shelf.
I've installed several capacitors in BLI Paragon decoders. I don't know about having space inside an SW7 unless there's room in the cab?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdOzEN03P60
BLI_K4_cap2 by Edmund, on Flickr
On some Paragon 3 decoders, I had to write 2 to CV 221 if the engine has a smoke unit or 0 to CV 221 for engines without smoke in order to make the stay alive active. Also, CV 11 will allow you to choose how much time the motor sees the capacitor output.
I've used TCS and Soundtraxx capacitor packs as well as the BLI "Go Pack" with good results from each.
Good Luck, Ed
Unfortunately, my two SW7s and K4 Pacifics were the first locos I bought with factory decoders and sound and this was in the early 2000s. As I recall, these are QSI decoders. I did find this on Tony's Train Exchange for attaching a Keep Alive to a QSI Titan U Type decoder.
QSI Titan with Stay Alive Capacitor | News & Resources (tonystrains.com)
I'll have to look to see if this is similar enough to the decoders in my locos that I can use it as a guide. One thing I don't want to do is guess as to where to solder the Keep Alives I have, even if it is an educated guess. If I hook it up to the wrong connection, there is a good chance I will fry the decoder.
Since Keep Alive technology is a lot newer than the decoders I have, I have found very little instructions on attaching them to older decoders and what little I have found uses technical jargon which might as well be in Chinese for all the good they do me.
I am not very saavy when it comes to electronics. I need idiot proof instructions and have yet to find it for what I want to do. Preferably something with lots of pictures.
Nevin Wilson John-NYBW Another vote for the Decoder Buddy. A very useful product. If I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be. I already have more locos than I need and this latest purchase is one more. I didn't need it but I wanted it. In the future, I anticipate most of my efforts will be to add sound to existing locos that currently don't have it. These have a variety of different decoder types. With some of the older locos, the challenge will be finding space for even a sugar cube speaker. Also needed will be replacing the headlights with LEDs on the older locos. If the locomotive board has an easily identifiable pads for attaching the speaker wires, then I agree with you. Some boards use plugs for the wiring and it isn't that easy to identify where the speakers attach. I use TCS Wowsound decoders and there are no places to attach the speaker wires on the decoder itself. If you want to add a keep-alive then the Decoder Buddy is really necessary. All of my locomotives have Keep-alives attached. Nevin Wilson
John-NYBW Another vote for the Decoder Buddy. A very useful product. If I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be. I already have more locos than I need and this latest purchase is one more. I didn't need it but I wanted it. In the future, I anticipate most of my efforts will be to add sound to existing locos that currently don't have it. These have a variety of different decoder types. With some of the older locos, the challenge will be finding space for even a sugar cube speaker. Also needed will be replacing the headlights with LEDs on the older locos.
Another vote for the Decoder Buddy. A very useful product.
If I anticipated buying more locos requiring a 21 pin decoder, I might consider Decoder Buddy but for one loco, it doesn't seem to be a wise expenditure. All I wanted to know was whether there would be any difficult soldering to attach a speaker. Apparently there won't be.
I already have more locos than I need and this latest purchase is one more. I didn't need it but I wanted it. In the future, I anticipate most of my efforts will be to add sound to existing locos that currently don't have it. These have a variety of different decoder types. With some of the older locos, the challenge will be finding space for even a sugar cube speaker. Also needed will be replacing the headlights with LEDs on the older locos.
If the locomotive board has an easily identifiable pads for attaching the speaker wires, then I agree with you. Some boards use plugs for the wiring and it isn't that easy to identify where the speakers attach. I use TCS Wowsound decoders and there are no places to attach the speaker wires on the decoder itself. If you want to add a keep-alive then the Decoder Buddy is really necessary. All of my locomotives have Keep-alives attached.
About three year ago I bought Keep Alives for several of my locos that tend to stall on insulated frogs, specifically two BLI SW7s and a BLI Pacific. After I got them, I couldn't find any place that would tell me in plain English where to attach the Keep Alives so they remain on the shelf.
John-NYBW I recently discovered there are now 21 pin decoders on the market. Trainworld is selling this analog Pennsy RS-3 with a 21 pin plug. Bowser #24685 ALCo RS-3 Pennsylvania #8595 (trainworld.com) I think the DCC versions of this loco have sold out. If I buy a 21 pin sound decoder, just what am I getting myself into as far as soldering. If the plug has loose wires to solder to sugar cube speakers, I can handle that but if I have to solder connections directly to the decoder, that's above my skill level. There's an excellent chance I would end up frying the decoder.
I recently discovered there are now 21 pin decoders on the market. Trainworld is selling this analog Pennsy RS-3 with a 21 pin plug.
Bowser #24685 ALCo RS-3 Pennsylvania #8595 (trainworld.com)
I think the DCC versions of this loco have sold out. If I buy a 21 pin sound decoder, just what am I getting myself into as far as soldering. If the plug has loose wires to solder to sugar cube speakers, I can handle that but if I have to solder connections directly to the decoder, that's above my skill level. There's an excellent chance I would end up frying the decoder.
The OP is looking at buying a locomotive that has a lightboard with a 21-pin receptacle already installed. He is asking if he has to do a lot of soldering to connect it up. The answer is NO you don't need ANY soldering. You plug the decoder into the 21 pin socket. PERIOD. Why is everyone advising him to take the board with the 21 pin receptacle out and replace with a Decoder Buddy that does EXACTLY the same thing as the board he's taking out?
The engine also has a place for a two pin plug to connect the speaker. That's why I suggested he look at the Bowser website, as it might be easier to get a speaker with the correct plug already attached.
Nevin Wilson Another vote for the Decoder Buddy. A very useful product.
John-NYBWLooks like I got Trainworld's last Pennsy RS-3
Plus the first run has the trainphone already installed. That saves you about $20 in Cal scale parts plus all the fuss to thread the brass wire, paint, and make everything look nice.
Hopefully I'll be around to see the E-L and Nickel Plate ones.
Cheers, Ed
This is the small decoder buddy. The two pads mark sp are the speakers.
This is sound traxxs version of decoder buddy. the NMRA 9 pin makes it easier to hardwire using the NMRA harness. The pads are for the extra functions the 21 pin has. On the right is the two pads for the speaks that have wires soldered on.
Here a decoder is mounted on the motherboard.
Shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Even suggesting soldering seems a bit "off" since the engine has a lightboard with a 21-pin receptacle. You just plug the decoder into the receptacle. No need to use a Decoder Buddy that will do exactly the same thing the existing set-up already does, and requires extensive soldering to put in place.
If you can't find the right size miniplug for the speaker connection, you might have to solder two wires from the speaker to a connection on the greenboard, but nothing gets soldered to the decoder.
gmpullman Bowser's second RS-3 run will be coming up soon. There's several PRR later styles being offered. The price difference (Tony's as an example) for DCC and sound is $80. https://tonystrains.com/manufacturers/bowser I'm holding out for Nickel Plate and Erie-Lackawanna myself. For $80 I'll let the factory install my decoder and speaker. Good Luck, Ed
Bowser's second RS-3 run will be coming up soon. There's several PRR later styles being offered. The price difference (Tony's as an example) for DCC and sound is $80.
https://tonystrains.com/manufacturers/bowser
I'm holding out for Nickel Plate and Erie-Lackawanna myself. For $80 I'll let the factory install my decoder and speaker.
I was typing my reply as you were posting yours. Looks like we calculated the same savings of about $80 with a DIY install. For that price, it's worth it to me to do the install myself as long as there is no difficult soldering that risks frying a decoder. If I had to pay MSRP for the DC loco, the savings wouldn't be nearly as much and I would opt for a factory installed decoder and speaker.
It doesn't look like the next pre-order line is going to have a Pennsy version so if I wanted Pennsy, I had to go with what is available now. Looks like I got Trainworld's last Pennsy RS-3.
Lastspikemike Don't forget the cost of adding the speaker. Pin my estimation these DCC models are priced at less than the cost of DC plus decoder plus speaker without any allowance for the added labour. I suspect the per unit labour cost to install the decoder and speaker at the factory is trivial.
Don't forget the cost of adding the speaker.
Pin my estimation these DCC models are priced at less than the cost of DC plus decoder plus speaker without any allowance for the added labour. I suspect the per unit labour cost to install the decoder and speaker at the factory is trivial.
I have about a half dozen surplus sugar cube speakers but I should add that into the cost of an upgrade. Still it's a bargain. I bought what I believe was Trainworld's last DC Pennsy RS-3 this morning for $150. I also ordered an Econami 21 pin sound decoder for $70. Shipping was around $15. Add $10 for the price of a speaker and we are at $245 plus sales tax. I believe the Trainworld price is a closeout price. If I remember right, Bowser had listed the DC version at $200 and the DCC at $300. The new preorder price is $10 higher for both. If shipping costs are comparable I figure the savings by installing the decoder myself comes to about $80. That's paying closeout price on the DC loco itself. If I paid MSRP at the current preorder price, I'd only save about $20 by doing the decoder and speaker install myself.